Dps CW

pbrand45

Now that people are a higher item level, enemies are dying to quick where control and buff doesn't matter as much. Seems like dps is still king. You have HR trappers that can immobilize in one encounter power and everything dies shortly after. I was wondering how the dps is in a Thaum/oppres vs renegade/Thaum . Would this build have a higher "personal" dps plus the perks of spell twisting/icy veins. Or would the renegade still be better "personal" dps because the buffs are applying to the cw as well. (In regards to feats with human bonus added to focused wiz)

romotheone

Thaum and Rene approximately do the same amount of damage with the difference that Renegade also buffs the party. Thaum therefore has a higher damage ceiling if grouped with other buffers, but Rene makes up for it because it also buffs the other players.

pbrand45

My game play consists soloing dallies/HE and a t2 run for protector cache. So buffing others isn't a high priority . Since I was bored I gave it a try. Even though taking a 10% drop in crit chance was hard, Thaum is definatley doing more dmg from the solo aspect. Haven't run with group yet. I never used icy veins before , but it's pretty good for mobs. Things are freezing without trying, making them take more dmg and from a defensive stand point increases survivability. Dmg + spell twisting + icy veins = fun. To early to tell if I will keep it, will play around with it more

romotheone

If you're looking to do solo-play only, the renegade keystone can be a lifesaver, even if sometimes a bit unreliable. You could try to skip Spell Twisting and go for Icy Veins.

katamaster81899

I personally run Thaum/Oppressor, and find it to have higher personal damage, and more survivability than my previous rene/thaum spec.

anagramofevil

katamaster81899 said:

I personally run Thaum/Oppressor, and find it to have higher personal damage, and more survivability than my previous rene/thaum spec.

If you don't mind a few questions -

Are you SS or MoF?
Which two passive powers do you run?
Do you PvP?

commanderdata002

Well the sign on thaumaturgy says somthing about "thaumaturgy is master at harnessing arcane powers to rain damage and desctruction down to enemies"
So Thaumaturgy should have better dmg and competitive dmg to other classes but its not! (over 3k IL)
All you can do is chose Renegade and buff other classes and hope for the best (patch notes).
Enjoy...!

Well in fact thaum has slightly better dmg indeed than renegade but if you play pvp or solo play Chaotic growth is very valuable!

digolift

i run thaum rene and sometimes do more damage than some GWF . im still want to see a CW beats my damage. then i will ask him his build

katamaster81899

anagramofevil said:

katamaster81899 said:

I personally run Thaum/Oppressor, and find it to have higher personal damage, and more survivability than my previous rene/thaum spec.

If you don't mind a few questions -

Are you SS or MoF?
Which two passive powers do you run?
Do you PvP?

Spellstorm
I run with EoTS and SS slotted.
I do PVP casually, and can hold my own against an opponent with an IL similar to my own. I cannot survive against a p2w 4k bug exploiting pvper, but then again, that's something else entirely, given that I am only 3k

I was running Dragonflight with Ironzerg last week, and scored higher than him on two of the four runs - I know that score isn't the most accurate measure, but we were both hunting down empowerers, and for both of us, the majority of our score came from damage dealt. In other words, my build can most likely dish out just as much damage as ironzergs build, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. He had a slight edge over me in regards to gear (his 3.3k to my 3k), but we were relatively close. We were both on the same dragons for all 4 runs (Start with Black and zerg to Green).

niadan

No offense, but without ACT logs, your claims are just that, claims. You cannot judge by Dragonflight rankings. He was also more than likely boosting your dps.

ironzerg79

katamaster81899 said:

anagramofevil said:

katamaster81899 said:

I personally run Thaum/Oppressor, and find it to have higher personal damage, and more survivability than my previous rene/thaum spec.

If you don't mind a few questions -

Are you SS or MoF?
Which two passive powers do you run?
Do you PvP?

Spellstorm
I run with EoTS and SS slotted.
I do PVP casually, and can hold my own against an opponent with an IL similar to my own. I cannot survive against a p2w 4k bug exploiting pvper, but then again, that's something else entirely, given that I am only 3k

I was running Dragonflight with Ironzerg last week, and scored higher than him on two of the four runs - I know that score isn't the most accurate measure, but we were both hunting down empowerers, and for both of us, the majority of our score came from damage dealt. In other words, my build can most likely dish out just as much damage as ironzergs build, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. He had a slight edge over me in regards to gear (his 3.3k to my 3k), but we were relatively close. We were both on the same dragons for all 4 runs (Start with Black and zerg to Green).

Well, just want to point out two things. One, I hung around at Black to finish off the last two sets of empowers instead of going directly to Green, so that affects the score. But that event isn't really about the scores, it's about completing the team mechanics.

Second, as a Thaumaturge, you'd benefiting greatly from the Renegade buffs, but you're not bringing any debuffs back to the group. So if you're in a group with another Renegade, you'll likely exceed their damage, as the Thaumaturge tree has higher personal damage feats than the Renegade. The thing with the Renegade tree is that almost all the personal DPS buffs are shared with the group. So that's what you have to remember when you're running as a Renegade or with a Renegade. EVERYONE is the party is better with the Renegade, so comparing head to head against other specs is difficult. Really, you'd have to take the exact same group playing the exact same way...one with a Renegade then the same group with the Thaumaturge to see the difference.

ironzerg79

Really, what we could do is get a group of players together, go out to Caer Konig and have people beat the HAMSTER out of the test dummy with their single target rotations, with @katamaster81899 in the group. And then we can switch out with myself and see what the effects are. We can also do solo single target damage (or AOE) rotations against the dummy and measure the effects.

And in this test I prefer to do it all against one isolated dummy, because you get a more pure sense of the damage, versus doing it against the groups of dummies, because not all attacks might hit the dummies correctly, which is a variable that affects the outcome. I also think that single target is a better "pure" measure of offensive capabilities, due to similar reasons.

katamaster81899

ironzerg79 said:

Really, what we could do is get a group of players together, go out to Caer Konig and have people beat the HAMSTER out of the test dummy with their single target rotations, with @katamaster81899 in the group. And then we can switch out with myself and see what the effects are. We can also do solo single target damage (or AOE) rotations against the dummy and measure the effects.

And in this test I prefer to do it all against one isolated dummy, because you get a more pure sense of the damage, versus doing it against the groups of dummies, because not all attacks might hit the dummies correctly, which is a variable that affects the outcome. I also think that single target is a better "pure" measure of offensive capabilities, due to similar reasons.

Maybe we could even do a couple of dragonflight runs with me and @ironzerg79 on the same dragon for the whole time, and have ACT running so we can log it to see what's happening. Do some runs with everyone else debuffing, some without, etc. That way we could see if Thaum might actually outperform Renegade in some scenarios. I'm not completely specced DPS either, I'd be Thaum with some Renegade if I was, but I chose oppressor for my extra 15 feat points so that I could get Icy Veins for some control.

ironzerg79

I chose the extra points in Spell Twisting for better control, so we're on even ground. I'm also not spec'd completely for DPS. I'm spec'd for team efficiency.

katamaster81899

ironzerg79 said:

katamaster81899 said:

anagramofevil said:

katamaster81899 said:

I personally run Thaum/Oppressor, and find it to have higher personal damage, and more survivability than my previous rene/thaum spec.

If you don't mind a few questions -

Are you SS or MoF?
Which two passive powers do you run?
Do you PvP?

Spellstorm
I run with EoTS and SS slotted.
I do PVP casually, and can hold my own against an opponent with an IL similar to my own. I cannot survive against a p2w 4k bug exploiting pvper, but then again, that's something else entirely, given that I am only 3k

I was running Dragonflight with Ironzerg last week, and scored higher than him on two of the four runs - I know that score isn't the most accurate measure, but we were both hunting down empowerers, and for both of us, the majority of our score came from damage dealt. In other words, my build can most likely dish out just as much damage as ironzergs build, maybe a little more, maybe a little less. He had a slight edge over me in regards to gear (his 3.3k to my 3k), but we were relatively close. We were both on the same dragons for all 4 runs (Start with Black and zerg to Green).

Well, just want to point out two things. One, I hung around at Black to finish off the last two sets of empowers instead of going directly to Green, so that affects the score. But that event isn't really about the scores, it's about completing the team mechanics.

Second, as a Thaumaturge, you'd benefiting greatly from the Renegade buffs, but you're not bringing any debuffs back to the group. So if you're in a group with another Renegade, you'll likely exceed their damage, as the Thaumaturge tree has higher personal damage feats than the Renegade. The thing with the Renegade tree is that almost all the personal DPS buffs are shared with the group. So that's what you have to remember when you're running as a Renegade or with a Renegade. EVERYONE is the party is better with the Renegade, so comparing head to head against other specs is difficult. Really, you'd have to take the exact same group playing the exact same way...one with a Renegade then the same group with the Thaumaturge to see the difference.

Yeah, this is true. I designed my build originally so that it would be viable for soloing and dungeons, but mainly to maximize my damage for heralds runs in WoD (Had to make sure I qualified for Zerg channel). I found that with the insane amount of debuffs being stacked on those dragons, Thaumaturge FELT like it was hitting harder than renegade. I haven't actually gotten around to installing ACT since I reinstalled Windows last spring, so I haven't done any tests, but I definitely felt that difference between the two builds. I also like EoTS, it's nice being able to guarantee that OF. icy terrain, and CoI, and Storm Spell are guaranteed crits every 20 seconds. I think that when it comes to dealing with massive mob pulls, EoTS will also allow the Thaumaturge to do huge bursts of damage that will greatly exceed that of a renegade. For example, after the first VT boss, in the area between that and the door that brings you up to Valindra, if you pull all the mobs, proc EoTS with one at-will hit, and then cast OF, Icy, CoI, and Sudden Storm all while EoTS is up... it's deadly, you'll do at least 1 million dmg in those 10 seconds. And with Icy Veins, like I'm specced, the mobs will be frozen or CCed the whole time, once you get that first OF up, you'll be set. It's even more effective with a MoF in the party to cast the pillar of flame that pulls all the mobs together to one spot.

katamaster81899

niadan said:

No offense, but without ACT logs, your claims are just that, claims. You cannot judge by Dragonflight rankings. He was also more than likely boosting your dps.

That's the exact reason I prefer thaumaturge, since I run dragons more than anything else nowadays between heralds, tiamat, and dragonflight, with the insane quantity of buffs on these enemies, thaumaturge has a higher damage output.

ironzerg79

katamaster81899 said:

niadan said:

No offense, but without ACT logs, your claims are just that, claims. You cannot judge by Dragonflight rankings. He was also more than likely boosting your dps.

That's the exact reason I prefer thaumaturge, since I run dragons more than anything else nowadays between heralds, tiamat, and dragonflight, with the insane quantity of buffs on these enemies, thaumaturge has a higher damage output.

But what's the total DPS contribution of the group both with and without a Renegade? That's the million dollar question.

The Paingiver chart or the scoreboard doesn't measure what you actually contributed to the group, only total damage. You can be at the top of the scoreboard, and still contribute far less to the success of the group that other people.

Like going back to the Dragonflight Fights. The two people who stick around at Red/Black aren't going to get to the top of the scoreboard, but without them being able to manage the dragon from 10% down to 1%, and hold the line until the kill call comes, you don't get 4 dragons down. Or the tanks who take the beat down. Or the healers who keep them alive (especially on green/blue). Or the buffer/debuffer builds?

Those guys aren't scoring at the top, yet they're the real MVPs in the fight. Everyone else is just filling in the DPS roll, which (while valuable) is far easier to replace than those others.

ironzerg79

It's why I get a chuckle out of people who complain that most CW's only aim to maximize their own damage, when a lot of them are also using my Renegade build, which was NOT meant to be a max-DPS build, but a team oriented buffer build, that also happens to pulls it's own weight in the damage department. They're being a team player and don't even know it.

But it's also why when a BiS GWF, SW or even TR gets in a group with a CW Renegade, and they trounce the damage of the CW...it's because the buffs coming from the CW are helping to amplify those advantages, creating an even wider gap between the CW and other BiS classes...which from a team perspective is not only a good thing. It's the BEST thing!

katamaster81899

ironzerg79 said:

katamaster81899 said:

niadan said:

No offense, but without ACT logs, your claims are just that, claims. You cannot judge by Dragonflight rankings. He was also more than likely boosting your dps.

That's the exact reason I prefer thaumaturge, since I run dragons more than anything else nowadays between heralds, tiamat, and dragonflight, with the insane quantity of buffs on these enemies, thaumaturge has a higher damage output.

But what's the total DPS contribution of the group both with and without a Renegade? That's the million dollar question.

The Paingiver chart or the scoreboard doesn't measure what you actually contributed to the group, only total damage. You can be at the top of the scoreboard, and still contribute far less to the success of the group that other people.

Like going back to the Dragonflight Fights. The two people who stick around at Red/Black aren't going to get to the top of the scoreboard, but without them being able to manage the dragon from 10% down to 1%, and hold the line until the kill call comes, you don't get 4 dragons down. Or the tanks who take the beat down. Or the healers who keep them alive (especially on green/blue). Or the buffer/debuffer builds?

Those guys aren't scoring at the top, yet they're the real MVPs in the fight. Everyone else is just filling in the DPS roll, which (while valuable) is far easier to replace than those others.

Originally, my build was almost completely focused on Tiamat and Heralds, in which people already had the renegade buffs most of the time. I also wanted to make sure I met the individual DPS requirement for my zerg channel, which wasn't easy with my stats at the time. I completely agree that renegade buffs provide more overall damage, but I built my CW based on individual damage, not team damage.

commanderdata002

katamaster81899 said:

That's the exact reason I prefer thaumaturge, since I run dragons more than anything else nowadays between heralds, tiamat, and dragonflight, with the insane quantity of buffs on these enemies, thaumaturge has a higher damage output.

Indeed but while Rene is the buffer Thaum should keep up with other dps classes because its job should be something like "damage and destruction" and its clearly not.
You can be renegade because its not much dps difference between thaum & renegade.
Btw if I want to give real party buffs then I come with my just-OP/virt-DC/tac-GF not my CW!