Possible Solution to Stealth

blazious11

Stealth was always a bit OP mechanik for pvp.
As Stronghold came, TR just became god. I can hold any territory with my 2,5 TR, harassing enemies, killing catapults silently, etc.
Here's my idea (If it is possible within the boundaries of the game engine)



This is your sight of view. You can see the TR in different range, depending on where he is.

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A: The TR is in front of you. If he does not wear cloak of invisibility, you should see him. The range, where you can see him in stealth is relatively long. You can see him, if he is closer than 15-30 feet. (Choose the distance, I don't really know how much would be balanced. )
This cone could also vary, depending on what would be balanced (45-60-90 degrees cone, pick one)

B: TR is not directly in front of you, he attacks from the flank. You can see him, if he comes close. You can see him from 10-15 feets in stealth.

C: TR is behind you. You cant see him or target him.

This mechanik would mean, that TR has to use tactics and positioning to attack players. But it would also mean, that other players could counter his stealth.


Some other balancing issues:
Remove unmitigated damage sources from saboteur (Shadowy opportunity -> Backstab: You deal 4-20% more damage, if you are behind your target. This amount doubles in stealth. Bload soaked blades: If enemy you damaged dies, you deal 2-10% more damage for x seconds. Does not stack. etc
Shocking Execution: You should be able to onehit players from max hp. Rew: This power can only deal maximum 50% of your targets health (You could onehit enemies below 50% HP, but not from max health)

blazious11

figured out image...

drkbodhi

Leave stealth alone... fix the specific build. Stealth is an attack or escape tool for TRs.​​

dersidius

blazious11 said:

.....

This is essentially how the mechanic works ingame, except it's from an equal rage at all distances... any further distance added to the reveal on stealth would severely gimp the TR's ability to survive & be offensive vs range and melee classes.

Maybe that's needed.. Maybe it's not.

But that would certainly be the result of your proposed change.

rversant

they should just be visible for a little bit while attacking. I swear it was tested but never got used / was undone

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dersidius

rversant said:

they should just be visible for a little bit while attacking. I swear it was tested but never got used / was undone

They did release it live, it was rolled back and deemed a poor implementation by the majority of the pvp community and developers alike.

grimah

just increase the stealth detection radius (about double what it currently is) and reduce the dodge distance when dodging in stealth to about 2/3 of what it currently is.

I swear it wasn't so small back before mod 5. You have to be practically ontop of them at the moment, making stealth just a form of immortality again certain classes

blazious11

I suggested this because I feel my 2,5k TR OP in Stronghold. Due to my low Armorpen and stats I can not kill too much (I can still oneshot with Shocking), but noone can kill me either. I can make a game with 0-2 death and still score plenty of points. In a map big like that I just hit stealth and run, regen Hp and go back. I could hold a point using this, because people just got too tired of chasing me. Also I could destroy catapults before anyone even noticed me. I feel I have enough tools to survive without this (Near infinite dodges, deflect, ITC - even with whisperknife my survivibility was high enough, but changed back to MI, because lag is not a friend of WK). Stealth was OP in domination area holding, but in there you could counter this, because space was little enough to catch the TR. But in Stronghold you can't. That map is a TR playground. Not that I don't enjoy this.
Not that so many people play Stronghold anymore, so nevermind after all.

rayrdan

new rings in mod 8 will detect stealthed enemies, it will kill trs if they work right

blazious11

Yes, I just saw that, but question is, how many percentage of the playerbase can get them, and how much time/efforts does it take.
Those rings seem OP, power creep is not the soultion IMO. But it can work against TRs. Wont save pvp though.

dersidius

Incr

grimah said:

just increase the stealth detection radius (about double what it currently is) and reduce the dodge distance when dodging in stealth to about 2/3 of what it currently is.

I swear it wasn't so small back before mod 5. You have to be practically ontop of them at the moment, making stealth just a form of immortality again certain classes

Increasing the range will nueter the class in multiple ways.

Dodge distance was increased because a good GWF could still land encounters right after a dodge roll on TR, TR's have the longest delay time before being to recast dodge.. so current distance is a must.

cesuke

The solution is very simple attacking from range just one time must deplete the stealth bar. That will be the end of that bored and horrible perma-stealth cos spamming build.

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cesuke

Not is how to "just care about score".

What is The fun of click click click q click click click e click click click r ....and being invisible is as fun as hunting a bear with an sniper and say "i defeated that beast"...

This is the only game when u can attack from range and remain invisible.

dersidius

cesuke said:

Not is how to "just care about score".



What is The fun of click click click q click click click e click click click r ....and being invisible is as fun as hunting a bear with an sniper and say "i defeated that beast"...



This is the only game when u can attack from range and remain invisible.

It isn't the most balanced concept in the world. However if this feature were to be stripped from TR with no alternative added, The TR would be close to useless in a BiS Premade.

xgrandz02

That is simple!

While a stealthed TR take (Cap) a node are the Border of his body Visible to all,
when he leaves the Cap field (area), he's again full stealth.

rayrdan

What a smart idea, while on a node unstoppable doesnt work

cesuke

TR is very viable in melee ... But need more skill and work than the common "perma"

rayrdan

Very viable.... 10 seconds is your concept of durable??

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rayrdan

rework shadow strike, let stealth bar refill with damage done like gwfs. boom done.

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dodgo

dersidius said:

TR's have the longest delay time before being to recast dodge.. so current distance is a must.

b0ll0cks

demonmonger

Leave stealth alone...

kweassa

Actually, there's a very simple "fix."

The 2 second stealth reveal on attacks? The devs almost had the answer, but did it wrong. It shouldn't have been a 'reveal on attack.'

What it should have been, was a 'reveal on last glimpse.'

Currently, stealth is revealed within a very close range, my guess is probably under 10~15ft. Within this distance the stealth is revealed, but as soon as the TR leaves that range targeting is lost. Not only is targeting lost, but in many cases powers that went into visual activation are cancelled as well.

This presents a huge problem for most people who fight TRs, in that even if the player is experienced and can correctly anticipate the movements, if he doesn't have a non-target AoE type attack, then there's no way to hit the TR at all -- even if you correctly guess its position and flush it out. As soon as it moves out of range it disappears even faster than restealthing... and at the current speeds the TR can move when in stealth... combined with the effects of a certain mount... along with the TR dodges... well...

Change it so that if you catch a 'glimpse' of a TR, then it remains for a short time, at least long enough to try and chase, or throw an attack or two. Maybe the 'glimpse' of the TR remains for 2 seconds.


Why this idea is good:

1. This rewards the players with better combat management, and keen insight/anticipation as to where the TR is and how it will move.

2. For TR players, it's not as devastating as the '2s reveal', but does force better positioning and better planning. It also reduces the efficiency of TRs on nodes. It's balancing, but not a one-sided, total nerf like the '2nd reveal' that basically negates the base concept of 'stealth' totally.

3. Class-wise, fast movers such as SWs and GWFs will have a much easier time in flushing out the TR.

4. Power-wise, utilitarian CCs - particularly roots and slows will become much more useful in hunting TRs down. It also gives some use for certain utilitarian powers with movement, such as Punishing Charge

hedgebet

kweassa said:

Actually, there's a very simple "fix."

The 2 second stealth reveal on attacks? The devs almost had the answer, but did it wrong. It shouldn't have been a 'reveal on attack.'

What it should have been, was a 'reveal on last glimpse.'

Currently, stealth is revealed within a very close range, my guess is probably under 10~15ft. Within this distance the stealth is revealed, but as soon as the TR leaves that range targeting is lost. Not only is targeting lost, but in many cases powers that went into visual activation are cancelled as well.

This presents a huge problem for most people who fight TRs, in that even if the player is experienced and can correctly anticipate the movements, if he doesn't have a non-target AoE type attack, then there's no way to hit the TR at all -- even if you correctly guess its position and flush it out. As soon as it moves out of range it disappears even faster than restealthing... and at the current speeds the TR can move when in stealth... combined with the effects of a certain mount... along with the TR dodges... well...

Change it so that if you catch a 'glimpse' of a TR, then it remains for a short time, at least long enough to try and chase, or throw an attack or two. Maybe the 'glimpse' of the TR remains for 2 seconds.


Why this idea is good:

1. This rewards the players with better combat management, and keen insight/anticipation as to where the TR is and how it will move.

2. For TR players, it's not as devastating as the '2s reveal', but does force better positioning and better planning. It also reduces the efficiency of TRs on nodes. It's balancing, but not a one-sided, total nerf like the '2nd reveal' that basically negates the base concept of 'stealth' totally.

3. Class-wise, fast movers such as SWs and GWFs will have a much easier time in flushing out the TR.

4. Power-wise, utilitarian CCs - particularly roots and slows will become much more useful in hunting TRs down. It also gives some use for certain utilitarian powers with movement, such as Punishing Charge

I think this is a good idea and certainly worth at least a test implementation. The main issues as you pointed out is that GWF and SW could completely nullify stealth if they used hard target lock (since they could always remain in visual range) and so maybe that would need to be removed as well (it is problematic in other areas so maybe a good idea).

I agree with morenthar that ITC needs to be changed as well and even on it a start would be that it drops when the TR attacks (assuming they could also make things like overloads and boons not count as actual attacks for this purpose).

rustlord

Interesting proposition, but just to play devil's advocate, what happens if I caught a glimpse of you, hold down CTRL to target lock? You are also systematically visible now, which will re-fire the stealth reveal code into a loop.

kweassa said:

Actually, there's a very simple "fix."

The 2 second stealth reveal on attacks? The devs almost had the answer, but did it wrong. It shouldn't have been a 'reveal on attack.'

What it should have been, was a 'reveal on last glimpse.'

Currently, stealth is revealed within a very close range, my guess is probably under 10~15ft. Within this distance the stealth is revealed, but as soon as the TR leaves that range targeting is lost. Not only is targeting lost, but in many cases powers that went into visual activation are cancelled as well.

This presents a huge problem for most people who fight TRs, in that even if the player is experienced and can correctly anticipate the movements, if he doesn't have a non-target AoE type attack, then there's no way to hit the TR at all -- even if you correctly guess its position and flush it out. As soon as it moves out of range it disappears even faster than restealthing... and at the current speeds the TR can move when in stealth... combined with the effects of a certain mount... along with the TR dodges... well...

Change it so that if you catch a 'glimpse' of a TR, then it remains for a short time, at least long enough to try and chase, or throw an attack or two. Maybe the 'glimpse' of the TR remains for 2 seconds.


Why this idea is good:

1. This rewards the players with better combat management, and keen insight/anticipation as to where the TR is and how it will move.

2. For TR players, it's not as devastating as the '2s reveal', but does force better positioning and better planning. It also reduces the efficiency of TRs on nodes. It's balancing, but not a one-sided, total nerf like the '2nd reveal' that basically negates the base concept of 'stealth' totally.

3. Class-wise, fast movers such as SWs and GWFs will have a much easier time in flushing out the TR.

4. Power-wise, utilitarian CCs - particularly roots and slows will become much more useful in hunting TRs down. It also gives some use for certain utilitarian powers with movement, such as Punishing Charge