The Proof of the Impact that the Removal of Leadership AD has Caused

checkmatein3

I am a guild leader of a moderately-sized, semi-casual guild. We managed to save the guild from the previously depressing mod 6 hack job, officer abandonment, and promote activity from June through the first 20 days of Mod 7. We have been able to recruit fun, active players of all levels and playstyles to help build the structures in Strongholds and hold a massive guild lottery event (giving out prizes totalling over 30Mil in AD). Of the 150ish accounts in the guild, over 70% were active within 1 week of play. We were always able to do DF successfully and store up fangs for the new armor sets. It was fun to come online and go in the guild hall and see 25-40 of your friends at any one time running around doing quests, dungeons, DF, whatever. The coffers went up from regular players and big donors, alike. There was a great spirit of comraderie. The mob change to reduce the dmg from mod 6 and the hp nerf helped even more. The previous sins of the developers (removing unbound, set-based epic gear from dungeons; implementing burdensome AD sinks in enchants, artifacts, artifact-gear, and strongholds; etc) were almost forgotten. Almost...

Then, the removal of leadership came. With Guild Hall 8 and Market Place 4 already collected for and waiting to be built (construction times are the enemy), the online participation of the guild has dropped to less than 15%. I have asked for a courtesy 'I quit' message if anyone does decide to leave the game. I have received many such emails already. Regardless of what the developers say or what forum moderators edit, the latest change COMBINED with all the previous changes has caused the immediate reduction of active play. There can be no waiting. Even with the new PvP, the game is in throes. The economy is filled with AD sinks everywhere. Those of us who have been around since open beta know of what the economy was like prior to AD sinks. You did not need salvage or Refine points or greater marks of anything because the enchant system was superior (yes, it was) and the unbound epic sets that were earned from dungeon runs had no rp investment and had tremendous party based bonuses. Run a set of T2s and get your epic set, or... buy a set from the AH from those who ran it and are selling it for some nice AD. Do you want different sets? Run different dungeons. There was plenty of space in bags (yes, enchants took up space to level up, but not as much as all the rp does). Everything was unbound until you equipped it. And you could run a plethora of dungeons. Were you bored of Castle Never and the epic T2 drops? Go run Pirate King. Or, Frozen Heart. Or, for a challenge with little reward...epic Dread Vault (dungeons that 2 modules of new players have no idea about).

But, through the small changes, there were no options for players to earn a good income of AD, legitimately. So, the result were leadership armies. Remove the source of AD from gear and implement AD sinks in artifacts and artifact gear (which now, serendipitously have the set bonuses, but weak ones in comparison to the old sets), and players turn to what they can get. Then, through the painful dance of leadership this and leadership that, the removal of AD has left no means by which players can earn AD. The market will correct itself on some things. But, the AD sinks are still everywhere in the game. So, donations to the coffer are down. Participation is down. Morale is down. And the only hope is mod 8, with a new class (maybe), a nerf to the paladin (my guess since new class is always overpowered at beginning), and the return of dungeons. But, this is not sufficient. The restoration of a free economy with no AD sinks must happen first, and quickly. I do not know how long even the most loyal of players can hold out for these changes. But, the proof is in the proverbial pudding. Our guild is suffering since.

Thank you for your time in reading this.

BLUNTFORCE TRAUMA.
Officer in Guild Myrmidons

mynaam

+1

tassedethe13

I'm not being mean, or negative, but the fact you lost your "core" players and rush to get 150 account is one reason why at the first difficulty, the paint is peeling. You may have recruited newcomers in neverwinter, the kind of guy who just has reached lvl 70 and searching for a guild but this kind of player have no attach to the game, generally spend some cash and then quit a few month later because they are bored, causing a huge turnover in guild ( this is why they leave without saying a "I quit" ).

The problem is that this game, with the direction it took, tends to attract only this kind of player. Easy come, Easy spend, Easy leave.

Building a guild is a long time process, find core players, and then add a few more by recruitment wave. I Hope your guild is not too much damaged, and I hope mod 8 will be the savior and will make come back many players.

instynctive

+2

In the past week, we've collected *maybe* 20k of the nearly 300k Treasures of Tyranny to upgrade our next structure. No one wants to grind that out again. Again. Again.

We have a solid core group, but that's what we're down to. I've honestly considered many, many times that I should just throw in the towel, instead of keeping my Guild on life support... Mod 6 didn't kill us, but hurt us pretty bad. Mod 7 started out with a bang, but same thing... people are quickly losing interest.

deucerider

Well spoke.

mistran

same thing happend in the guild i'm part off, a drop of 70% in activity, even the core players who are just like me in it for more then a year are leaving

locksanpockets

We will shortly see just how much they care about the players and the life of this game.

If the stealth taxes on boons are immediately removed then you know they plan on staying around. If they aren't removed quickly then you know that the plan all along was to enter the market, extract as much $ as possible, then exit.

aquarius79

+100 for OP and I hope that current devs/managements/someone who let this happen will burn faster than this game

tripsofthrymr

tassedethe13 said:

The problem is that this game, with the direction it took, tends to attract only this kind of player. Easy come, Easy spend, Easy leave.

I don't agree, exactly. There are many players here that want to believe, that want to stick around. The game has huge potential. So many leave because of decisions like this one (and there have been many others) that undermine player's trust in the game makers. If you don't have confidence that your investment won't be ripped away from you or made pointless, why invest more?

I do agree that the game is geared toward casual players, and that most of the objectives other than "dominate PVP" can be obtained fairly quickly (given all of the content that was removed). My OP got a few R7/R8's from my other toons but otherwise got there on his own. Within 2 months he was leveled, geared, and helping to clear even eCC (legitmately). No more challenges for him.

Love your signature graphic!

tripsofthrymr

checkmatein3 said:

But, through the small changes, there were no options for players to earn a good income of AD, legitimately. So, the result were leadership armies. Remove the source of AD from gear and implement AD sinks in artifacts and artifact gear (which now, serendipitously have the set bonuses, but weak ones in comparison to the old sets), and players turn to what they can get. Then, through the painful dance of leadership this and leadership that, the removal of AD has left no means by which players can earn AD. The market will correct itself on some things. But, the AD sinks are still everywhere in the game. So, donations to the coffer are down. Participation is down. Morale is down

Well said.

Further evidence of lacking participation - last night when I checked, there were only 3 full instances in PE (yet almost 2000 instances of bots running Ghost Stories).

tassedethe13

tripsofthrymr said:

tassedethe13 said:

The problem is that this game, with the direction it took, tends to attract only this kind of player. Easy come, Easy spend, Easy leave.

I don't agree, exactly. There are many players here that want to believe, that want to stick around. The game has huge potential. So many leave because of decisions like this one (and there have been many others) that undermine player's trust in the game makers. If you don't have confidence that your investment won't be ripped away from you or made pointless, why invest more?

I was talking about newcomers. Actually, the guild searchers are 80% newcomers, 20% members of small dying guilds ( still my personal feeling as guild leader )

I know the game is full of people who believe, because the gameplay is amazing ( even with some little bugs) and i am in this "MOD 8 WILL SAVE US" hype train.

aalile

There always is a lot of rage when a major nerfing takes place. However, the OP is correct about what has taken place in the population fleeing the game.

As I look at the Zen exchange I see that my Zen now buys less AD than it did prior to this "fix". I also notice that AD prices have not dropped on the Bazaar. So Cryptic just jacked the price to play way up. I do not believe games operate for free. However, a smaller number of people playing means that they need to get more $$$ from those who stay. Of course we are not dealing with anyone who actually understands that blatantly greedy actions usually backfire in an environment that allows consumers multiple options (such as other games to go play). We also see the lack of knowledge by the posters who just tell people to leave, without understanding the negative impact it has on their gaming experience.

dsn1118

Well I blame those leadership army runners to force Cryptic to take this kind of measure.Are you seeing amount of the ZEN coming under their skirts.Most of this excess ZEN was made with those leadership armies and hold the ZEN amount at 500AD .Now they are spilling it before it looses its value too much

regenerde

The difficulty of Underdark will probably be based on the benefits of a Stronghold...
So is there still someone here left believing, that Underdark will manage to bring players back into the game?

mynaam

dsn1118 said:

Well I blame those leadership army runners to force Cryptic to take this kind of measure.Are you seeing amount of the ZEN coming under their skirts.Most of this excess ZEN was made with those leadership armies and hold the ZEN amount at 500AD .Now they are spilling it before it looses its value too much

The sad part is they could just have put a 24k ad limit per day per acount on leadership and I believe most would have been happy about it

dsn1118

mynaam said:

dsn1118 said:

Well I blame those leadership army runners to force Cryptic to take this kind of measure.Are you seeing amount of the ZEN coming under their skirts.Most of this excess ZEN was made with those leadership armies and hold the ZEN amount at 500AD .Now they are spilling it before it looses its value too much

The sad part is they could just have put a 24k ad limit per day per acount on leadership and I believe most would have been happy about it

Yeah you are right but we are talking about PWE or Cryptic here.They arent known for precision or thinking too much:) or maybe they think too much and that is the main reason of all these playerbase killing decision

regenerde

The ZAX will probably be again at 500 AD per 1 ZEN in a few days, and there are no leadership armies around to blaim for, then what?
If you still think that the clearing rate of the backlog will be 1m AD per day at that time... think again.

ZEN doesn't just appear in game out of thin air, player have to buy it for real money.
Now take a look around you, and try finding some real players, who are still in the mood of spending money.

And an account wide limit for refining AD would have slowed those leadership armies down... but the Devs did nothing to clean up the AD from bugs and exploits for a very long time.
And i doubt, that they got all those AD bugs and exploits fixed too.

In other words, they are just trying to push more players into buy ZEN, and that will only backfire...

theycallmetomu

If there's less AD in the economy, then the purchasing power of 500 AD is greater. People would be more willing to buy zen with cash, not less.

cloudius1978

+1

As a GL myself, what the OP said resonate a lot with me. Well said!

mistran

but you need people to buy zen in the first place, if there is noone around who is willing to spend on the game because they are fed up with cryptics decissions, from who are you going to buy that zne from then?

santralafax

aalile said:

There always is a lot of rage when a major nerfing takes place. However, the OP is correct about what has taken place in the population fleeing the game.

As I look at the Zen exchange I see that my Zen now buys less AD than it did prior to this "fix". I also notice that AD prices have not dropped on the Bazaar. So Cryptic just jacked the price to play way up. I do not believe games operate for free. However, a smaller number of people playing means that they need to get more $$$ from those who stay. Of course we are not dealing with anyone who actually understands that blatantly greedy actions usually backfire in an environment that allows consumers multiple options (such as other games to go play). We also see the lack of knowledge by the posters who just tell people to leave, without understanding the negative impact it has on their gaming experience.

+1 I have spent hundreds of dollars on this game, and now see the management trying to goad me for more. They can proclaim it a to the death fight against "bots" or whatever, the case is that it requires even more money to move forward than before. Just as it did when they "had" to obsolete/nerf characters at the begining of Mod 6. It is one cash grab after another.

I wouldn't spend more good money after bad, but with the state of the AD Exchange, this is further reinforced.

regenerde

theycallmetomu said:

If there's less AD in the economy, then the purchasing power of 500 AD is greater. People would be more willing to buy zen with cash, not less.

Again, why would people invest into a game with a declining player base?

http://steamcharts.com/app/109600
i know, only showing the players going through Steam... but it still shows a certain trend, and it's not a positive one.

santralafax

dsn1118 said:

Well I blame those leadership army runners to force Cryptic to take this kind of measure.Are you seeing amount of the ZEN coming under their skirts.Most of this excess ZEN was made with those leadership armies and hold the ZEN amount at 500AD .Now they are spilling it before it looses its value too much

This follows the Mod 6 debacle. Did the Leadership armes do Mod 6? Did the Leadership armies amp up mob damage and HP by 50%? Should I go on? Poor decision making at that point, eh?

Removing AD from the Leadership profession was done in the harshest way so that solo players with even 1 character were affected. And it did not call for nerfing the dailies whatsoever. We make less AD for our effort with the current scheme. Were the dailies a problem for you as well?

The official reason for the change to AD was "botters". You note that it was because of "Leadership Armies". You seem to have no problem with the management team lying to your face. Good luck with that.

demonmonger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yz0feZri-M
would you invest with the beagle boys?

theycallmetomu

regenerde said:

theycallmetomu said:

If there's less AD in the economy, then the purchasing power of 500 AD is greater. People would be more willing to buy zen with cash, not less.

Again, why would people invest into a game with a declining player base?

http://steamcharts.com/app/109600
i know, only showing the players going through Steam... but it still shows a certain trend, and it's not a positive one.

Except that that makes no sense; the people who should be leaving due to AD removal are the people who want to use AD to buy zen, aka us free to players. Why would the people who already are spending money, and thus are getting AD, be the ones more likely to leave? Well, the answer is fixed prices of AD items, and that's a serious problem.

I'm of the opinion that the Wondrous Bazaar needs to be heavily modified or removed outright.

regenerde

theycallmetomu said:

regenerde said:

theycallmetomu said:

If there's less AD in the economy, then the purchasing power of 500 AD is greater. People would be more willing to buy zen with cash, not less.

Again, why would people invest into a game with a declining player base?

http://steamcharts.com/app/109600
i know, only showing the players going through Steam... but it still shows a certain trend, and it's not a positive one.

Except that that makes no sense; the people who should be leaving due to AD removal are the people who want to use AD to buy zen, aka us free to players. Why would the people who already are spending money, and thus are getting AD, be the ones more likely to leave? Well, the answer is fixed prices of AD items, and that's a serious problem.

I'm of the opinion that the Wondrous Bazaar needs to be heavily modified or removed outright.

You're right, it makes no sense for players to stick around either to continue to play for free, or to invest money while playing, when many players are leaving the game.

Do you now get it?
Players are leaving the game, and it does not matter if they invested time or money.

dsn1118

santralafax said:

dsn1118 said:

Well I blame those leadership army runners to force Cryptic to take this kind of measure.Are you seeing amount of the ZEN coming under their skirts.Most of this excess ZEN was made with those leadership armies and hold the ZEN amount at 500AD .Now they are spilling it before it looses its value too much

Did the Leadership armes do Mod 6? Did the Leadership armies amp up mob damage and HP by 50%? Should I go on? The official reason for the change to AD was "botters". You seem to have no problem with the management team lying to your face. Good luck with that.

Lol I have a problem with the Company that runs the game.I was never sided with removing AD from leadership.I had 7 alts which I play time to time have level 20 leadership but people were botting the Leadership by the way.You can look it up from the net.There was an open topic about they were writing a script for ingame AD farming after they removed it from gateway.

theycallmetomu

regenerde said:

theycallmetomu said:

regenerde said:

theycallmetomu said:

If there's less AD in the economy, then the purchasing power of 500 AD is greater. People would be more willing to buy zen with cash, not less.

Again, why would people invest into a game with a declining player base?

http://steamcharts.com/app/109600
i know, only showing the players going through Steam... but it still shows a certain trend, and it's not a positive one.

Except that that makes no sense; the people who should be leaving due to AD removal are the people who want to use AD to buy zen, aka us free to players. Why would the people who already are spending money, and thus are getting AD, be the ones more likely to leave? Well, the answer is fixed prices of AD items, and that's a serious problem.

I'm of the opinion that the Wondrous Bazaar needs to be heavily modified or removed outright.

You're right, it makes no sense for players to stick around either to continue to play for free, or to invest money while playing, when many players are leaving the game.

Do you now get it?
Players are leaving the game, and it does not matter if they invested time or money.

It's about the relative purchasing power of zen. If AD prices fall, one dollar buys more stuff than it used to do. Yes, the value of that stuff also falls and thus there's a self-reference problem, but these two forces work against one another, so it's difficult to see which effect will dominate.

The problem is that W. Bazaar items on the AH are not based on the player economy, but rather are fixed costs. So players having less AD income doesn't allow each dollar to buy more stuff from the bazaar, like AH items.

dsn1118

theycallmetomu said:

regenerde said:

theycallmetomu said:

regenerde said:

theycallmetomu said:

If there's less AD in the economy, then the purchasing power of 500 AD is greater. People would be more willing to buy zen with cash, not less.

Again, why would people invest into a game with a declining player base?

http://steamcharts.com/app/109600
i know, only showing the players going through Steam... but it still shows a certain trend, and it's not a positive one.

Except that that makes no sense; the people who should be leaving due to AD removal are the people who want to use AD to buy zen, aka us free to players. Why would the people who already are spending money, and thus are getting AD, be the ones more likely to leave? Well, the answer is fixed prices of AD items, and that's a serious problem.

I'm of the opinion that the Wondrous Bazaar needs to be heavily modified or removed outright.

You're right, it makes no sense for players to stick around either to continue to play for free, or to invest money while playing, when many players are leaving the game.

Do you now get it?
Players are leaving the game, and it does not matter if they invested time or money.

It's about the relative purchasing power of zen. If AD prices fall, one dollar buys more stuff than it used to do. Yes, the value of that stuff also falls and thus there's a self-reference problem, but these two forces work against one another, so it's difficult to see which effect will dominate.

The problem is that W. Bazaar items on the AH are not based on the player economy, but rather are fixed costs. So players having less AD income doesn't allow each dollar to buy more stuff from the bazaar, like AH items.

Yeah we should focus on getting these items prices down or direct removal instead of bitching about how people felt betrayed(This comment wasnot for specific person)

garriusdetylmar

checkmatein3 said:

I am a guild leader of a moderately-sized, semi-casual guild. We managed to save the guild from the previously depressing mod 6 hack job, officer abandonment, and promote activity from June through the first 20 days of Mod 7. We have been able to recruit fun, active players of all levels and playstyles to help build the structures in Strongholds and hold a massive guild lottery event (giving out prizes totalling over 30Mil in AD). Of the 150ish accounts in the guild, over 70% were active within 1 week of play. We were always able to do DF successfully and store up fangs for the new armor sets. It was fun to come online and go in the guild hall and see 25-40 of your friends at any one time running around doing quests, dungeons, DF, whatever. The coffers went up from regular players and big donors, alike. There was a great spirit of comraderie. The mob change to reduce the dmg from mod 6 and the hp nerf helped even more. The previous sins of the developers (removing unbound, set-based epic gear from dungeons; implementing burdensome AD sinks in enchants, artifacts, artifact-gear, and strongholds; etc) were almost forgotten. Almost...

Then, the removal of leadership came. With Guild Hall 8 and Market Place 4 already collected for and waiting to be built (construction times are the enemy), the online participation of the guild has dropped to less than 15%. I have asked for a courtesy 'I quit' message if anyone does decide to leave the game. I have received many such emails already. Regardless of what the developers say or what forum moderators edit, the latest change COMBINED with all the previous changes has caused the immediate reduction of active play. There can be no waiting. Even with the new PvP, the game is in throes. The economy is filled with AD sinks everywhere. Those of us who have been around since open beta know of what the economy was like prior to AD sinks. You did not need salvage or Refine points or greater marks of anything because the enchant system was superior (yes, it was) and the unbound epic sets that were earned from dungeon runs had no rp investment and had tremendous party based bonuses. Run a set of T2s and get your epic set, or... buy a set from the AH from those who ran it and are selling it for some nice AD. Do you want different sets? Run different dungeons. There was plenty of space in bags (yes, enchants took up space to level up, but not as much as all the rp does). Everything was unbound until you equipped it. And you could run a plethora of dungeons. Were you bored of Castle Never and the epic T2 drops? Go run Pirate King. Or, Frozen Heart. Or, for a challenge with little reward...epic Dread Vault (dungeons that 2 modules of new players have no idea about).

But, through the small changes, there were no options for players to earn a good income of AD, legitimately. So, the result were leadership armies. Remove the source of AD from gear and implement AD sinks in artifacts and artifact gear (which now, serendipitously have the set bonuses, but weak ones in comparison to the old sets), and players turn to what they can get. Then, through the painful dance of leadership this and leadership that, the removal of AD has left no means by which players can earn AD. The market will correct itself on some things. But, the AD sinks are still everywhere in the game. So, donations to the coffer are down. Participation is down. Morale is down. And the only hope is mod 8, with a new class (maybe), a nerf to the paladin (my guess since new class is always overpowered at beginning), and the return of dungeons. But, this is not sufficient. The restoration of a free economy with no AD sinks must happen first, and quickly. I do not know how long even the most loyal of players can hold out for these changes. But, the proof is in the proverbial pudding. Our guild is suffering since.

Thank you for your time in reading this.

BLUNTFORCE TRAUMA.
Officer in Guild Myrmidons

QUoting this entire post because you devs need to pull your collective heads out of your collective butts.

you think bot farming is what's keeping your profit margins low? No, you stupid morons, it's the fact that your managers want you to get stuff done on time rather than MAKE GOOD STUFF.

Gamers are sick of rush job BS. Give us some quality or just close the freaking game down and let us move on.

You people are a freaking embarrassment to developers everywhere right now.

Unknown

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