If you're a mostly-solo and/or non-PVP player, will the AD changes affect your decision to play?

panathea

"Astral Diamond Changes" posted by goatshark 9sept2015
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1203585/astral-diamond-changes

panathea

I'm a mostly-solo and non-PVP player. I've played countless MMORPGs over many years, and I have considered NW to be one of the best, if not *the* best, that I've come across-- for style, gaming experience, and especially for considering the solo/non-pvp players.
But...
No AD from Leadership, and no AD from the Foundry...

In my opinion, if anything, the amount of AD gained from Foundry quests should be *increased* -- not removed. (It's a very creative endeavor, and it's obvious that many authors have put a great deal of time, thought, and effort into these.)
And, if a player *must* be involved in skirmishes or dungeons to gain AD, then there should be solo options for both.
Without any doubt, *some* means must be provided for solo/non-pvp players to gain AD, without having to resort to buying from the Zen market to sell in AH. [While I've put a significant amount of real $$ into this game each month for Zen (mounts, companions, fashion, dyes for all characters), buying only to re-sell is not how I want to play, and I won't play that way.]

I *know* it's a massively multi-player game, but many people still want to play solo. And the last time I checked, contributions (financial or other) from solo players were just as good as any coming from others.

I hate to leave this game because I've enjoyed it, but if there's no way for me (as a solo/non-pvp player) to obtain what I need (AD) to improve my characters, then I will have no option but to seek another game at which to spend my gaming funds.

Maybe anyone involved in the marketing/development of this game is of the notion that the solo/non-pvp player base isn't large enough to be concerned about them/us, but I do wonder whether it's really the case that ignoring these players will have no significant effect. I think it's a very poor and risky business decision.

fogtripper

panathea said:

"Astral Diamond Changes" posted by goatshark 9sept2015
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1203585/astral-diamond-changes

Is it at all possible for someone to post a non-biased poll?

vyperdrive

As a solo'ist I'm happy that they are removing AD from leadership. Having leadership armies generating so much AD was ridiculous, and they were crazy for letting it go on so long. It ultimately means that it will be a long time before the economy normalises, unless they decide to do something more drastic.

BUT - I do want to see them implement sources of AD for solo players now, plus take a look at the existing prices for key items/crafting/refining. I also want to see them coming up with a better crafting system all round, which provides value and usefulness to those players who want to put the effort into them.

I'm also critical of the planning made around this decision. They should have looked thoroughly at the current leadership rewards and mapped out worthwhile revisions to them before making this change. It often feels like the devs keep putting the cart before the horse when making decisions like this.

strous1

This is just on 2 toons, all I have, unlike the form modoraters with over 25+ toons. I have been rebuilding my equipment since mod 6 made it worthless. Everything got nerfed. Not counting the nerfs on classes, and raiseing of hp & damage of bosses and adds, doing 1 hit kills. I still cannot get back to doing DR or Sharandar without getting 1 hit by adds. 70th lever 1875 gl. To me this is not fun, it is a drag. Real close to not worth my time anymore. I have been playing this since launch. Spent some $ on it also, untill my investment was nerfed. We see.

ogarious

vyperdrive said:

As a solo'ist I'm happy that they are removing AD from leadership. Having leadership armies generating so much AD was ridiculous, and they were crazy for letting it go on so long. It ultimately means that it will be a long time before the economy normalises, unless they decide to do something more drastic.

BUT - I do want to see them implement sources of AD for solo players now, plus take a look at the existing prices for key items/crafting/refining. I also want to see them coming up with a better crafting system all round, which provides value and usefulness to those players who want to put the effort into them.

I'm also critical of the planning made around this decision. They should have looked thoroughly at the current leadership rewards and mapped out worthwhile revisions to them before making this change. It often feels like the devs keep putting the cart before the horse when making decisions like this.

You do understand that the funds generated in leadership armies pale in comparison to the funds generated by people using active and still functioning exploits that are presently in the game? And I'm not sure why you think there is a difference between being someone who solo's in game and someone who has a leadership army?

If you want a leadership army. Go make one. All you need to do is spend money on the character slots, AD or zen to get the resources you need to speed it up, and to invest the time into it to make it profitable. Seems more likely that you just dont want them to have something that you dont have. Anyone playing Neverwinter, right here, right now. Can make a leadership army if they choose to.

If that is how they choose to spend their time in Neverwinter, who are you, or me, or the devs to tell them that it is wrong and that they cannot do that? Here's a hint....nobody has that right...

The comment made was that the development team of Neverwinter felt that AD should be earned by someone playing the game. How are leadership people not playing?? But, that point aside.... If they really wanted AD to be earned through playing. Attach AD rewards on to all missions. Again, you will never see that happen.

all this is, is the people who are in charge of the game trying to enforce their ideas of how the game is to be played upon the player base, that's all this is. This will not stop AD farming, this will not stop people exploiting the game, and this will not stop people from building massive amounts of AD through less legitimate means.

ogarious

strous1 said:

This is just on 2 toons, all I have, unlike the form modoraters with over 25+ toons. I have been rebuilding my equipment since mod 6 made it worthless. Everything got nerfed. Not counting the nerfs on classes, and raiseing of hp & damage of bosses and adds, doing 1 hit kills. I still cannot get back to doing DR or Sharandar without getting 1 hit by adds. 70th lever 1875 gl. To me this is not fun, it is a drag. Real close to not worth my time anymore. I have been playing this since launch. Spent some $ on it also, untill my investment was nerfed. We see.

Yes, but the nerfing of that equipment and the release of new equipment was to pull AD out of the game and make those that have exploited the game have to work for their new stuff. However, they already have stockpiles of resources and funds and therefor were BIS within hours of the new gear's release.

The development team has failed you, the casual players because they've been spending all their time working on problems that they dont have the expertise to fix. And that's what is going to eventually bite them in the HAMSTER. They should be working on making the game more fun instead of trying to change the way people play it.

rattler2

fogtripper said:

panathea said:

"Astral Diamond Changes" posted by goatshark 9sept2015
http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1203585/astral-diamond-changes

Is it at all possible for someone to post a non-biased poll?

Probably not.

We've had our fair share over in the STO forums. Also some ridiculous ones and a couple from someone who loved getting hit with the Ban'leth on a daily basis.

vyperdrive

ogarious said:

You do understand that the funds generated in leadership armies pale in comparison to the funds generated by people using active and still functioning exploits that are presently in the game?

No. I understand there is a hell of a lot of AD in the game still from previous exploits though. Which is why I hinted that they may need to do something more drastic to reduce that.

ogarious said:

And I'm not sure why you think there is a difference between being someone who solo's in game and someone who has a leadership army?

That's because I haven't said that.

ogarious said:

If you want a leadership army. Go make one. All you need to do is spend money on the character slots, AD or zen to get the resources you need to speed it up, and to invest the time into it to make it profitable. Seems more likely that you just dont want them to have something that you dont have. Anyone playing Neverwinter, right here, right now. Can make a leadership army if they choose to.

I have 3 characters with leadership 25 myself, with the resources thanks very much. It's still a ridiculous way to generate AD and I am happy they are changing it. Instead of spending time maintaining them, I can actually go out and play some more and hopefully gain some AD that way. If they adjust prices of items accordingly, the game won't seem so disconcerting to new players either.

As it is, even though I 'only' have 3 leadership characters and don't fill all their tasks with AD tasks. I still (without spending much money) have my character at 2.8k gearscore, and can solo any area and lair. It does amuse me though that so many players with large leadership armies seem to have worse equipped and specced characters; and yet are so resistant to this change. So it seems more likely that you don't want other players to have something that you do have...

ogarious said:

If that is how they choose to spend their time in Neverwinter, who are you, or me, or the devs to tell them that it is wrong and that they cannot do that? Here's a hint....nobody has that right...

Actually, as it's their game the devs do have the right to tell us "what is wrong and that they cannot do that". As for the rest of us, we have the right to our state our opinions. If you don't like that, then take the hint and keep your's to yourself - or off to some other game where you can sit and moan about the same problems about not being bis (see, I can do strawmen too...)

ogarious said:

The comment made was that the development team of Neverwinter felt that AD should be earned by someone playing the game. How are leadership people not playing??

Because, this game is an action oriented mmorpg - it isn't a 'log on and click a few buttons whilst never moving from the same spot' game. As above - their game, their rules - don't like it, find another game that allows you to do that...

ogarious said:

But, that point aside.... If they really wanted AD to be earned through playing. Attach AD rewards on to all missions. Again, you will never see that happen.

Which will just exacerbate the current problem of a glut of AD in the system, causing the devs to come up with more and more elaborate (and extremely disliked) AD sinks.

ogarious said:

all this is, is the people who are in charge of the game trying to enforce their ideas of how the game is to be played upon the player base, that's all this is. This will not stop AD farming, this will not stop people exploiting the game, and this will not stop people from building massive amounts of AD through less legitimate means.

Nothing will ever stop a few from exploiting. The problem is when everybody else feels like they have to do similar to just keep up. At the moment the game has a never ending AD race that just scares off new players due to the time it takes to create their own leadership armies so that they can afford to improve their characters. The ZAX prices have been stuck at max for a year or so now, whereas in a healthy online economy it would fluctuate in response to supply and demand.

Once again it's because there is too much AD in the system that has been made through either exploits, or by long time players who have had the time and resources to set up huge leadership armies that they can mindlessly refresh once a day. If that's 'playing the game', then I have several spreadsheets that might interest you...

theycallmetomu

Of course the devs force their idea of how the game should be played on the player base. That's what game design IS.

Look, I'm not saying the implementation is a good one, but holy cow does this player base have some warped entitlement issues.

wylonus

now, it is not possible to support Strongholds with limited diamonds when it cost more than 300k at tier 3, then tier 4 would be costing over 500k diamonds, i am be watching lot of strongholds will withered away and unfinishable for years.
they need to redo the numbers.
there wont be many left waiting for mod 8, i will be watching incoming mass exodus.

no AD for foundrys, then there will be no new storyline or unique adventures. many will just give up.

sick of the lies, what they said, "we will look into it", they wont do it, they just go around it just buy themselves time to plan more nerfings and grounding into MMO graveyard.

fogtripper

vyperdrive said:

A lot of truth

I like the cut of your jib.

briseda

Scumbag Crytpic....

suxip01111

I think they'll probably add more sources of AD later on, but they'll do it slowly, and carefully consider whether these new sources can be easily exploited or not. As we all know by now, if it can be exploited, it WILL be exploited.

theycallmetomu

Your meme would have worked better as "Removes dungeons. Makes dungeons only way to get AD."

Short and sweet is necessary for memes. They get wordy and the punchline gets lost.

Well, unless the wordiness IS the punchline.

regenerde

suxip01111 said:

I think they'll probably add more sources of AD later on, but they'll do it slowly, and carefully consider whether these new sources can be easily exploited or not. As we all know by now, if it can be exploited, it WILL be exploited.

Sure, and in the meantime, botters will run dungeons/skirmishes/PvP for AD and supply the market.
Now even more players will buy AD for real money, it's cheaper then buying ZEN for AD...
And considering how many botters are still running free all over this game, there seems to be little to no risk to do so.

What will PWE/Cryptic next move be?
Remove the Auction House, because botters use it to move their AD from the seller to the buyer account?

Whatever they decide to do, it will take them months... but look there, they're bringing Stronghold PvP into the game at the same time... that should keep the players bussy.

indro100

You know what is funny ? The people that complain about the leadership farm, they forget it will stay the same for them, if you don't have enough now, you will not have enough after the nerf also. Those people can complain whatever they want, people payed for extra slots, they can do that too, but they don't, why not ? Because if they do that they can't moan about it. If you didn't bought extra slots or only have 2 charcters and don't want to spend real money or didn't spend real money like most of the people did with a leadership farm, then stop moaning about the leadership.

As far as people talk they leaving, well they always say that, in mod 6 and now and they are still here so that I don't believe anymoe.

regenerde

http://steamcharts.com/app/109600
if you don't believe that a lot of players allready left the game, take a look at those charts.
Now write those numbers down, and take a look again at the end of this week, and again at the end of this month.

I know, those are not the complete player numbers, but those charts show a certain trend...
Players came back for a new module, but they couldn't keep those players ingame.

rattler2

People have said the same about STO's population, yet it seems fine to me.

I see much Delta Rising Level rage here over a fix to a serious exploit. I'm sure they will have something down the road, but this was something that had to be shut down quickly.

We had a somewhat similar thing, but it wasn't exactly something that could be exploited by bots. When they introduced Specilizations into STO, they also had a Dilithium reward for after you completed your specializations entirely. Every time you "Leveled up" you would get a Dilithium reward. What they never expected was for people to power grind through the spec trees like mad and start getting lots of Dilithium.

Cryptic pulled that real fast. While I was nowhere near that, some people were up in arms over it just like people here. Eventually things balanced out. While we still don't have that after Spec dilithium, we've still got other sources especially those of us with maxed reputations.

And before anyone says that the reps can be exploited... only way to get the marks is to actually PLAY related content. Can't exactly bot that.

Now... before I get accused of being a "White Knight" or "Cryptic Apologiser" (been called that before as an insult by someone who REALLY HATED Cryptic yet hung out on the forums and wouldn't listen to reason), I take a wait and see approach to things like this in STO, and I will do the same here in Neverwinter. Its only a game after all. And an MMO at that. Things are always changing. No point in ranting and raving immediately after something happens and demanding that they undue it or else. Blowing up doesn't solve anything, and is more likely to get ignored by the Devs. Enough rage, and the forums might get slapped with post timers and the silent treatment from Devs.

I know from experience. Right after Delta Rising expansion... the forums went Nuclear and... I think we started with a 5 minute timer between posts because of the rage. Finally got dropped down to 2 minuts, then something a lot more reasonable. But the rage didn't solve anything. It just hurt the community. So... My personal opinion is... just wait and see what happens.

sockmunkey

rattler2 said:

I see much Delta Rising Level rage here over a fix to a serious exploit. I'm sure they will have something down the road, but this was something that had to be shut down quickly.

Why? It was not an exploit, it was a part of the game from launch, a profession, and one that took a very long time to make use of. Now, It might be argued that the players themselves exploited a tool they were given, but it took over two years and many other true exploits to get to this point. Case in point, leadership still exists on the Xbox version of the game, and their economy is still fine.

So, even if we can all agree the profession itself is a problem, and that alone is debatable. No one has yet to offer any reason why it had to be fixed this quickly, and in this haphazard, unfinished, manner. For a problem, this large, and this long in the making, I fail to see any rational reason for the rush to suddenly fix this.

theycallmetomu

"Fine" is a relative term.

I think the problem in part is that people feel like they're being accused of cheating (sometimes because they ARE being accused of cheating). Leadership armies were not, as long as you stayed to one account, cheating. They're just using a broken game mechanic.

The broken game mechanic is not being fixed, it's merely being removed.

gwalaploth

be prepared for more bots in PvP and possibly in skirmishes.

rattler2

I think the reason the XBox one isn't changing is because A: The XBox version hasn't been around as long, and B: MUCH harder to bot on XBox than it is on PC. You get caught cheating on XBox, you don't just risk your game account, you risk your ability to play online period.

And while I agree that innocent players may have been adversly affected, its also possible that Gold Sellers and other less than legit exploiters were also affected. So... double edged sword.

I'll maintain my wait and see stance. No point in flipping out.

sockmunkey

I'm hardly flipping out. I just took issue with your conclusions. It was not an "exploit", but a game mechanic, and not something that needed to be "shut down quickly".

Time spent actually devoted to the problem, rather then hacking away at it. Would of gone far to eliminate entire need to "wait and see"

theycallmetomu

It definitely would have been nice if they'd given due consideration, yes.

rattler2

I doubt they will just leave it as is. Removing it, to me, comes across as a short term fix while they work on it in depth. Better to cut it off then let it fester sort of thing. When they jumped on people spamming one single patrol to level up in STO things were rocky. They even went so far as to bash characters they believed were guilty. Lots of backlash after that. But they eventually fixed it and things settled down.

This is no different.
Cryptic jumped on something. People lose it. Life goes on. Fix comes.

Not the first time. Won't be the last time.

dionchi

Perhaps I should make a new character and ask for a prostitute class to be added to the list as a way of making astral diamonds.

That makes about as much sense as the other changes regarding astral diamonds as far as I'm concerned...

theycallmetomu

it's just that historically in NWO, positive changes take months to occur, if ever.

sockmunkey

theycallmetomu said:

it's just that historically in NWO, positive changes take months to occur, if ever.

Exactly! I'm fairly sure if overnight the ability for people to earn both Dilithium and Credits got reduced to 3 dailies that completely excluded solo content. Reduced to 3 STFs and PVP. I dont suspect many over there would be all that willing to just wait and see.

For the Trekies who might not fully understand what happened here, let me elaborate.
What this change did was remove Dilithium from all dailies and removed any dilithium awards from managing duty officers. Our dungeons are equal to your STFs, but most of our dungeons have been removed to be "reworked" months ago, we are still waiting for them. We have been reduced to 3. Our Skirmishes are equal to your Fleet actions. The are level locked, so while there are several, you only get access to a few at any given time. At max level that is only 3. For PVP, we only have 2 maps. Instead of dailies in the normal sense, we get rewards directly from each run. But each additional run rewards less, up to a final daily cap. The payouts are low enough that if someone did all possible activities, the maximum number of times, it would still not be enough to reach the daily refine limit.

So that is it, 3 activities, with 8 maps, as the soul means to earn regular income . Keep in mind that AD is also our auction house currency. So its like loosing both dilithium and credits at the same time. And all this because people made too much by a crafting system very much similar to your duty officer system.

mwinky

After 2 years playing I will not be logging in any more after this change. The rotten, greedy developers of this game can slog off.

It took a long time to level up leadership, I even worked on it with two characters. I don't have much time to play, but I could actually (albeit slowly) progress by just playing for 15 minutes a day or so.. it took years to get to the point where I could finally buy my high speed mount and was starting to enjoy the game.

Then they decided to put an end to that with this change. I call absolute BS on the reasons given, to stop botters.. they just want more money, more greed, more more more, I hope this causes the game to go into collapse, and I will never again be spending a dime on any PE product, they have lost me as a customer with this sudden and heavy handed change that they are trying to spin as some great thing.. nothing but greedy scumbags.

theycallmetomu

It's a for-profit company. Of course they want money. Arguments like "they're just being greedy!" are asinine.