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Can someone explain, using small words, how tenacity works?
pointsman
Member Posts: 2,327 Arc User
To be honest I am quite confused on how tenacity works.
I tried a few PVP matches tonight, after a long time of not doing any PVP. And everyone was yelling at me for not having any tenacity gear.
But in the past, to be honest, I have used tenacity gear, and it didn't seem to make much of a difference.
Right now I have Elemental Elven gear for my CW, and to trade it for AH Blue Tenacity gear would mean a gain of 1k in tenacity but a loss of about 20k in HP. Is that tradeoff worth it? If so, can you explain exactly and precisely why? And furthermore can you explain what the optimal balance is for tenacity vs. the other stats?
I tried a few PVP matches tonight, after a long time of not doing any PVP. And everyone was yelling at me for not having any tenacity gear.
But in the past, to be honest, I have used tenacity gear, and it didn't seem to make much of a difference.
Right now I have Elemental Elven gear for my CW, and to trade it for AH Blue Tenacity gear would mean a gain of 1k in tenacity but a loss of about 20k in HP. Is that tradeoff worth it? If so, can you explain exactly and precisely why? And furthermore can you explain what the optimal balance is for tenacity vs. the other stats?
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1. Damage resistance that is not pierced by armor penetration
2. Armor Penetration resistance, which further reduces the effect of ArPen stat against you
3. Critical DR, only on critical strikes, further reduces damage taken
4. Control Resistance, reduces the duration of control effects
At 1K Tenacity, that is;
14% more damage resistance from normal attacks
30% arpen resistance
14% more crit resistance
14% more control resistance
If they remove Tenacity from the gear why would they even offer PvP gear?
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
What made it so good was that casual players could feel competitive even without full PvP gear. Everyone could get good matches maybe 4 out of 5 times, now it's probably the other way around.
They should just have PvP sets where it gives more HP, but less offensive stats. That way people would still want to get the right sets for PvE or PvP purposes, but it's not a must.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
As people may already know I am very vocal about this problem, and I make it a habit to try and inspect everyone's gear in almost every game. Truth be told, most 'casuals' or 'pugs' already have at least Grim-tier gear, and most already with the Burning-tier. Their tenacity is not the problem.
The nauseating amount of performance difference between casual/pugs and 'pros', comes from everything else. Specifically speaking, EVERYTHING ELSE YOU NEED TO SPEND MONEY ON.
That's really about it, jao.
In the end, the past mods felt better not because it did not have tenacity. Past mods felt better because we didn't need to spend hundred of dollars to become competitive. All we needed was better enchants. Sure, it cost some money, but still it was 10~13 pieces to upto maybe rank8 at the least. It was manageable.
Nowdays?
3 pieces of artifact set for neck/waste/artifact... 3 additional artifacts to level upto at least legendary... a piece of mainhand and offhand artifact equipment to do the same... 4 pieces of consumable armor kit to be applied to head/torso/arms/feet, and another 4 pieces of utility armor kits to be applied to neck/waste/2xrings... and each and every refinement rank up associated with additional money used to buy chance-modifiers if the upgrade chance falls below 10%... and of course, a ridiculous legendary mount as well
...on TOP of 10~13 enchants to now level upto rank12.
This is where the performance difference comes from.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It's just that regarding to tenacity. It's such a struggle for any new player to get enough glory and/or seal of triumphs to buy these gear. The could, and should buy blue gear with tenacity on AH, but they probably don't understand how tenacity is important. It's just another added thing on top of so many things that they need to catch up on in order to compete.
I think there should be a PvP tutorial, just like the one for Stronghold Siege PvP.
They should also rework the PvP campaign. Add one for beginners that are easily achievable and reward them with PvP gear that cannot be sold or salvaged. And at the end of the campaign, give them a bloodraven artifact that cannot be used to refine other artifacts. Doing this will at least make them survive a bit longer
This will be the first step to get more people interested in PvP. Shortly after, they should bring back NCL, or start their NCL season 1 (if the preseason wasn't meant to be season 1). Then hopefully, we won't have to wait 30 mins for a match, and there might even be enough players to improve their matchmaking system.
Have the gear and skills, but lack the friends to play with? Come and apply for Essence of Aggression. We have been here and strong since beta. (Immature, rude, and arrogant people will not be accepted)
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
dude, you're doing it wrong. You compare elven (BiS PvE purple gear) with AH blue PvP gear which:
- is at least a couple of tiers below= a TON of HP lost going from purple BiS to blue stuff
- has less tenacity than the sets you find in trade of blades. Exactly. If you compare lvl 65 blue PvP set from ToB and random blue pieces you get from AH, you'll see they have roughly 15% less tenacity stat even when lvl 69 stuff.
So you need to compare elven gear to burning PvP gear. And sorry to tell you, but it's a TON of difference for PvP. Reason, very simple, is that HP is the same, stats are more PvP-oriented and the amount of tenacity you get is enough to increase your survivability BY FAR. I can notice the difference in survivability even just switching 2 PvP pieces for 2x PvE pieces, when facing another geared PvP player.
So you need burning gear, or at least grim gear. Nothing less. If you want to PvP, that is. Go gauntlgrym, where you can focus more on capping and have less intense fighting pace. Get glory+ grym coins you can exchange for a lot of glory. Complete the victory daily every day for seals of triumph and in no time you'll have grim gear. After that, focus on saving for burning gear. GG and daily every day.
Burning set>>>elven set for PvP.
Now, my point of view on the overall matter:
- removing the need for PvP-PvE sets might work to increase diversity, but you need to raise base tenacity/extra DR or you'll end up again with PvP instakills. Tenacity was introduced to reduce overall DPS spikes in PvP and allow for slower/ more tactical gameplay. This must remain. And making piercing damage respect tenacity. Tenacity must reduce ALL incoming damage sources.
- removing the need for double sets is indeed a good thing since it's literally impossible to either double your enchants (at least if you want to go above rank 8's/9's) or coninuously switch amor, weapon and all other enchants everytime you go switch from PvP to PvE.
- but even so, the stats and build you need in PvP and PvE are different. Example: as a GWF in PvP you need more than 60% ArP, and must go full DPS, while in PvE you must touch 60% DRI and then focus heavily on crit. You need very high LS in PvP, while in PvE not really that much (RS in solo play is enough, in dungeons you have DC and tanks).
Point is, PvP wants you to be perfectly build and geared for it. PvE doesn't, really. So the best choice for a player who wants to both PvP and PvE is, imho, this, which is what i'm trying to do now:
Fully spec and gear for PvP. Usually DPS classes need quite good DPS in PvP too, so...a PvP spec can work in PvE too. Not BiS. But good enough.
Enchants on artifacts, shirt, pants, body piece shared. Body piece PvP gear. So no need for double.
Head, gloves, boots PvE gear set when you go PvE. No need for double enchants there, since you just put dragon hoards in utility for PvE.
What you can REALISTICALLY do then is:
buy a lesser SF for PvE and switch armor enchant only each time
Get a couple of PvE artifacts to switch
Example: let's say i need crit in place of ArP from my artifacts. I can invoke a CW and a TR alts to 60, get the class artifact, then bring it to purple in double RP week end. This way i can lower my ArP to 60% DRI and raise my crit stat.
This coupled with the 3x PvE pieces might be enough to tweak stats going from PvP to PvE.
Also buy a ioun stone for more stats-tweaking. A blue stone (allure) is enough, with companion gear, to do that.
So you can go BiS for PvP and still be good enough for PvE. If you want to play both.
Else, do the opposite if you are PvE focused. Get burning gear at least and may be switch a couple of artifacts that are easier to refine to at least purple through double RP week ends.
Also if you are a really squishy PvE-specced toon, you might want to switch the personalized rings for the new purple PvP rings that give you 500 tenacity each. 1 enchant slot only but the 1k tenacity increase might be worth it for PvP.
You will still be no match for dedicated PvPers but will do good enough in PUG PvP.
Then you have the Devoted Clerics sitting in Astral Shield and you can't do ANYTHING about it because your crowd controls don't DO anything. I can't roar him out of it, I can't frontline surge him out of it, I can't even Indomitable Strike him out of it.
Oh, wait, can't forget about Hunter Rangers. They aren't that hard to deal with once you catch them out of an immunity frame and remove Fox's Cunning, and pray to the RNG gods that you don't get a key skill deflected.
To be brutally honest, most of PvP is the way it is due to:
Poor design choices (No cooldowns on Dailies. Each Daily should have a cooldown JUST like Hunter Rangers dailies have cooldowns.)
Unintended interactions (Echoes of Light and Aura of Vengeance, not sure if a Weapon enchantment is involved. This leads to countless encounter spam, most often Templars Wrath/Smite/Divine Touch/Binding Oath. Elven Battle causing Hunter Rangers roots to do more damage to you.)
Ridiculously overtuned items (Elven Battle giving 30% more stamina regeneration AND making you 80% more resistant to most CCs, Lostmauth being affected by power and damage bonuses, Negation before it got nerfed)
Classes that have feast or famine encounters, atwills, class features, paragons and feats (GWF's can't use Instigator or Sentinel because they cannot do they're intended jobs. MI Saboteurs being able to constantly have Impossible To Catch up with a little bit of work here and there. Hunter Rangers being required to use Crushing Roots so they can kill anything.)
And things that are straight up broken (Avalanche, Divine Protector, Empowered Astral Shield, Stealthed ITC.)
It's like this: If you ACTUALLY explained to people in PvP why they can't kill that DC, they'd feel so much better about themselves. The enchantments and things like that do matter, but more often then not its people who are better than you mechanically, know what other people's abilities can and can't do, (And most importantly) are abusing the strongest things they can about their class.
DC is a perfect example of this... You reduce damage by 26.6% from Astral Shield or 41.68% depending on how its calculated, but that ignores the fact that you get a flat 3% of your max health PER Empowered Stack in flat damage reduction (9000 damage reduction per INSTANCE of damage)... How the HAMSTER is anyone supposed to deal with that? Oh crowd control you out of it... Wait, crowd controls do nothing because: the dodge mechanic in this game is extremely forgiving and many classes don't have crowd control that actually works effectively. Let's say you land it though. Oh wait, that Cleric has Elven Battle. So they can be up to 80% more resistant to most forms of crowd control. HAMSTER. Oh wait, because of the way Control Resistance is calculated its not that bad! Oh wait... They can also get up to 30% more Stamina regeneration... HAMSTER. Well at least they won't kill me!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/3eux9a/avalanche_proc_bugs_detailed/
Oh...
If you're wondering how I know what these things are, its because I have a character for every class and I've learned what just about every single animation looks like, along with the sound that comes with it. I don't have BIS characters or anything, I just wanted to get the Sigils and understand what it is that each class actually does.
But... Do ya'll see my point? When I catch these really geared, Rank 12, full mythic artifact, full legendary artifact equipment people off guard I am able to really dent them and it feels FAIR. It feels fair to die to a Rogue that whittles me down with CoS, dodges my Savage Advance/Takedown/IBS, stealths, hits me in the HAMSTER with Lashing Blade, and then Shocking Executions me. I can live with that. We fought, he outplayed me and I lost. It doesn't feel fair when a Rogue comes from stealth, Shocking Executions me with First Strike... and then pops Stealth ITC so that I literally can't do anything to him. It's even MORE infuriating when later, I catch him with his pants down and no stealth ITC and I CLEAVE through him like BUTTER.
You play save up for armor and get it
Simple
It doesn't slow down the kills for these types of characters, the way it is imposed on the system.
After reaching lv70 tenacity is simply a matter of time which applies equally for everyone. Takes about a week to get the Grim-tier gear, and then about a month to get the Burning-tier gear. New or old, doesn't matter, it's equal time invested, so there's no such thing as an unfair advantage to anyone.
That's because 'those' types of characters never remember the times when they've met and fought their peers. All they remember is the times they've met people +2k higher than themselves in IL and then being 1-shot.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'