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[PvP] Power/Raw Damage vs Critical Chance
ralexinor
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
NOTE TO PVE-ERS: THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR YOU. Keep your PvE formulas in PvE, thanks. No offense to most of the smart PvE-ers, just telling the ones who can't read to sod off.
Back in module 6, Neverwinter went through a bunch of mechanic and stat scaling changes. A big example would be the introduction of Armor Penetration Resistance (APR) to Tenacity. Also the big HAMSTER-up that occurred with Tenacity at the start/mid of the mod (2 HAMSTER-ups, actually - one APR not working at all, the other Tenacity being additive after Cryptic attempted to fix Tenacity) but that's besides the point.
During the module, in an attempt to min-max builds, I did a lot of testing on different stats, with help from other players like Lothor Syralth@mfgamesys and Rookz@whitespicyrice (thanks guys, btw). Because of that I ended up making some spreadsheets to prove the data we were getting from doing tests with each other.
Originally I was going to keep this data within my guild and some friends, but since I no longer play, I don't see the point in keeping it a secret anymore. Someone might as well make use of it, even if I don't like them lol.
Feel free to convert it to a google spreadsheet, I'm too lazy to.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17036030/mod6/mechanics/powervscrit_tenacity.xlsx
Disclaimer: this does NOT include Lostmauth in the calculations as that's not possible to calculate without a whole host of other variables, since it differs between classes. However, @zeusom did some testing and apparently this spreadsheet still does apply even with Lostmauth - aka the values of power vs crit are still reasonably accurate.
Okay, so the way to read this spreadsheet is as follows. You should be on the "Data" tab. Note that when I name the cell i.e. "ENTER YOUR POWER HERE" I mean the cell next to it which has the actual value.
Variables
Variables are the values/cells that you can change to fit your own build/stats more. The current ones in the spreadsheet are based off mine, from what I remember.
Do NOT touch the formulas from non-crit total damage and crit total damage (B1 and B2 respectively), as those are the formulas for the damage calculation. Any damage modifiers within that formula can be changed via other cells, listed below.
Tenacity (Value at N1): This is your Tenacity value. During module 6 it was 40.2% with full Elemental Burning armor set, I don't know what it is now as I don't play anymore.
Severity/Critical Severity (Value at F2): This is your total Critical Severity. Include Vorpal in this formula if you use it.
ENTER YOUR POWER STAT (Value at B5): This is your "Power" stat on your character sheet.
ENTER YOUR DAMAGE ABILITY SCORE (Value at B6): This is the ability score like STR, DEX, etc. that has Damage +1% on it i.e. DEX for HRs, CON for SW and so on.
ENTER YOUR CRITICAL CHANCE (Value at B7): This is your critical chance. NOT the Critical Strike stat but the final % value.
"Total damage" (B9) is based off the power stat value + damage ability score value. Don't touch this.
"Damage test" is the damage pool to calculate. Basically what happens here is the spreadsheet uses this value as your base damage, then applies the damage multipliers from crit and power to give you what your final damage will be after your stats are applied. No need to touch this either, as it obviously scales, unless you want easier readability.
---
Damage difference between a critical hit and non-critical hit
In the J column, you will see some values, and finally at J8, you will see a percentage. This is the total damage difference between a critical hit and non-critical hit post-tenacity. If the number is positive, that is how much more damage a critical hit does than if it was a non-critical hit. If it's negative, then that's how much less a critical hit does than if it was a non-critical hit.
Critical hits at 82.2% severity (iwd boon + tod boon) will start doing less damage than non-critical hits once tenacity hits the 45.2% mark.
---
Determining whether critical chance or power is more effective/finding the optimal stat setup
Alright, so the main body of the spreadsheet contains a long list of numbers. These numbers change based on what your values in the variables are.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Make sure you resort the table, usually by "Total Damage" (E13), after changing ANY variable.
What the spreadsheet does is takes your current damage bonus and your current critical chance, then tests every value that's +10 and -10 of each of these. For example, in the spreadsheet, my current total damage bonus is 58% and my critical chance is 43.8%. The spreadsheet will basically test every value from 48% damage bonus and 33.8% critical chance to 68% damage bonus and 53.8% critical chance - aka it will test 48% damage bonus and 33.8% critical chance, 48% damage and 34.8% critical chance ......... 58% damage and 33.8% critical chance ......... 68% damage and 53.8% critical chance. And so on.
However, this does cause some discrepancies in data because it WILL have tested values that will be impossible for you to obtain. In order to find the best stat set for DPS, sort by Total Damage (descending), then find the first set of values that you can obtain.
For example, the stats I listed above were my stats that I had with Brutal Enchantment, Rank 12 in all 7 of my offense slots. Brutals give 7.5%~ critical chance and 7.5% power. By swapping to either Azures or Radiants, I would lose either 7.5% of the respective stat, but gain 5% more of the other stat.
At the time I was testing power vs crit and me and Rookz figured that power was the better stat. So I had a look down the columns, and basically looked at the values of damage bonus and crit percentage that had a total of +5% to one stat and -7.5% to the other stat from my base values. Note that the spreadsheet does have values where it'll calculate +7% to both stats - you need to look for something that IS possible, as if you put in your current stats, you generally only can get either +7.5%/5% to one stat, and then lose that amount from another stat. Make sure you look at both where you gain stats and where you lose stats while looking for the best value.
The best value turned out to be something like 63% damage bonus and 36.8% critical chance. Just looking at the spreadsheet, you can actually see that lower crit chance and higher damage bonus within the reasonable field values tend to be higher (i.e. 33.8% crit chance + 66% damage is pretty high up the list).
Alternatively, you can modify the fields to only include values you can achieve, delete the rest, then sort on that.
---
Credits/kudos to:
@whitespicyrice - Thanks for being a great friend and always coming up with great ideas for theorycrafting!
@gweddry - Good luck for the future, you have so much potential!
@macjae - You have amazing knowledge and ideas of/for the game, wish you all the best. Thanks for supporting me so much.
@mfgamesys -
@Sobek10 - Thanks for giving me the incentive for doing this <font color="orange">HAMSTER in the first place!
@bvira - Thanks for supporting me so much.
@saberviking - Thanks for supporting me so much.
@vasdamas - Thanks for supporting me so much.
@martianmnhunter - Thanks for supporting me so muchI'VERUNOUTOFTHINGSTOSAY
@zeusom - Thanks for helping out and being a great fellow tester.
Back in module 6, Neverwinter went through a bunch of mechanic and stat scaling changes. A big example would be the introduction of Armor Penetration Resistance (APR) to Tenacity. Also the big HAMSTER-up that occurred with Tenacity at the start/mid of the mod (2 HAMSTER-ups, actually - one APR not working at all, the other Tenacity being additive after Cryptic attempted to fix Tenacity) but that's besides the point.
During the module, in an attempt to min-max builds, I did a lot of testing on different stats, with help from other players like Lothor Syralth@mfgamesys and Rookz@whitespicyrice (thanks guys, btw). Because of that I ended up making some spreadsheets to prove the data we were getting from doing tests with each other.
Originally I was going to keep this data within my guild and some friends, but since I no longer play, I don't see the point in keeping it a secret anymore. Someone might as well make use of it, even if I don't like them lol.
Feel free to convert it to a google spreadsheet, I'm too lazy to.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17036030/mod6/mechanics/powervscrit_tenacity.xlsx
Disclaimer: this does NOT include Lostmauth in the calculations as that's not possible to calculate without a whole host of other variables, since it differs between classes. However, @zeusom did some testing and apparently this spreadsheet still does apply even with Lostmauth - aka the values of power vs crit are still reasonably accurate.
Okay, so the way to read this spreadsheet is as follows. You should be on the "Data" tab. Note that when I name the cell i.e. "ENTER YOUR POWER HERE" I mean the cell next to it which has the actual value.
Variables
Variables are the values/cells that you can change to fit your own build/stats more. The current ones in the spreadsheet are based off mine, from what I remember.
Do NOT touch the formulas from non-crit total damage and crit total damage (B1 and B2 respectively), as those are the formulas for the damage calculation. Any damage modifiers within that formula can be changed via other cells, listed below.
Tenacity (Value at N1): This is your Tenacity value. During module 6 it was 40.2% with full Elemental Burning armor set, I don't know what it is now as I don't play anymore.
Severity/Critical Severity (Value at F2): This is your total Critical Severity. Include Vorpal in this formula if you use it.
ENTER YOUR POWER STAT (Value at B5): This is your "Power" stat on your character sheet.
ENTER YOUR DAMAGE ABILITY SCORE (Value at B6): This is the ability score like STR, DEX, etc. that has Damage +1% on it i.e. DEX for HRs, CON for SW and so on.
ENTER YOUR CRITICAL CHANCE (Value at B7): This is your critical chance. NOT the Critical Strike stat but the final % value.
"Total damage" (B9) is based off the power stat value + damage ability score value. Don't touch this.
"Damage test" is the damage pool to calculate. Basically what happens here is the spreadsheet uses this value as your base damage, then applies the damage multipliers from crit and power to give you what your final damage will be after your stats are applied. No need to touch this either, as it obviously scales, unless you want easier readability.
---
Damage difference between a critical hit and non-critical hit
In the J column, you will see some values, and finally at J8, you will see a percentage. This is the total damage difference between a critical hit and non-critical hit post-tenacity. If the number is positive, that is how much more damage a critical hit does than if it was a non-critical hit. If it's negative, then that's how much less a critical hit does than if it was a non-critical hit.
Critical hits at 82.2% severity (iwd boon + tod boon) will start doing less damage than non-critical hits once tenacity hits the 45.2% mark.
---
Determining whether critical chance or power is more effective/finding the optimal stat setup
Alright, so the main body of the spreadsheet contains a long list of numbers. These numbers change based on what your values in the variables are.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Make sure you resort the table, usually by "Total Damage" (E13), after changing ANY variable.
What the spreadsheet does is takes your current damage bonus and your current critical chance, then tests every value that's +10 and -10 of each of these. For example, in the spreadsheet, my current total damage bonus is 58% and my critical chance is 43.8%. The spreadsheet will basically test every value from 48% damage bonus and 33.8% critical chance to 68% damage bonus and 53.8% critical chance - aka it will test 48% damage bonus and 33.8% critical chance, 48% damage and 34.8% critical chance ......... 58% damage and 33.8% critical chance ......... 68% damage and 53.8% critical chance. And so on.
However, this does cause some discrepancies in data because it WILL have tested values that will be impossible for you to obtain. In order to find the best stat set for DPS, sort by Total Damage (descending), then find the first set of values that you can obtain.
For example, the stats I listed above were my stats that I had with Brutal Enchantment, Rank 12 in all 7 of my offense slots. Brutals give 7.5%~ critical chance and 7.5% power. By swapping to either Azures or Radiants, I would lose either 7.5% of the respective stat, but gain 5% more of the other stat.
At the time I was testing power vs crit and me and Rookz figured that power was the better stat. So I had a look down the columns, and basically looked at the values of damage bonus and crit percentage that had a total of +5% to one stat and -7.5% to the other stat from my base values. Note that the spreadsheet does have values where it'll calculate +7% to both stats - you need to look for something that IS possible, as if you put in your current stats, you generally only can get either +7.5%/5% to one stat, and then lose that amount from another stat. Make sure you look at both where you gain stats and where you lose stats while looking for the best value.
The best value turned out to be something like 63% damage bonus and 36.8% critical chance. Just looking at the spreadsheet, you can actually see that lower crit chance and higher damage bonus within the reasonable field values tend to be higher (i.e. 33.8% crit chance + 66% damage is pretty high up the list).
Alternatively, you can modify the fields to only include values you can achieve, delete the rest, then sort on that.
---
Credits/kudos to:
@whitespicyrice - Thanks for being a great friend and always coming up with great ideas for theorycrafting!
@gweddry - Good luck for the future, you have so much potential!
@macjae - You have amazing knowledge and ideas of/for the game, wish you all the best. Thanks for supporting me so much.
@mfgamesys -
@Sobek10 - Thanks for giving me the incentive for doing this <font color="orange">HAMSTER in the first place!
@bvira - Thanks for supporting me so much.
@saberviking - Thanks for supporting me so much.
@vasdamas - Thanks for supporting me so much.
@martianmnhunter - Thanks for supporting me so muchI'VERUNOUTOFTHINGSTOSAY
@zeusom - Thanks for helping out and being a great fellow tester.
Post edited by ralexinor on
0
Comments
For PvP reduce the crit severity bonus[%] by tenacity[%].
Losmauth IS a problem. The calculated "perfect" balance between crit/power did not work. Me and several others (including Lazalia) tested it. Losmauth is pushing the advantage to crit. For a GWF (at the moment) first goal is 100% crit chance (including all buffs) and then power.
Best regards,
Bellistor
One word: PvP.
NOT PvE. PvE yes, crit > power by far, even without lostmauth. It has always been. Please READ. Also learn the PvP formulas.
No more copy-catting from you.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
"NOTE TO PVE-ERS: THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR YOU. Keep your PvE formulas in PvE, thanks. No offense to most of the smart PvE-ers, just telling the ones who can't read to sod off."
II shall learn the PVP formulas and to read? You mean the additional "* (1 - TEN)" ? That is the (only relevant) difference!! I forgot to mention that is is reduced in a multiplicative way. My bad.
The formulas are basic. The same calculation (and much more) was done by Kaelac and others more than a year ago. In fact... the changes with mod6 are simple. The problem are the unknown / hidden parts in the calculation.
I have read your text. And I checked your sheet.
- Power bonus and stat bonus added together and then multiplied to the damage? Really? All other sources use dmg x power x stat instead of dmg x ( power + stat)... is this a PvP special? I don´t think so...
- You are ignoring the different calculation of hits with and without combat advantage for crit and non-crit (!). For classes who e.g. mark foes this is relevant.
- You are ignoring the "disciple of strength" effect for example (GWF) for crit and non-crit... other classes may have such special cases too
- And again: You are ignoring the Losmauth set. Reduced effect or not.
When you compare 2 setups with ACT you will see differences between your calculation and the recorded damage. Several people did this before and tried to find the missing parts. I linked some docs and threads in my sheet. Please do not be rude if someone is writing in your thread... instead you should be happy that there are (a few) people out there who are interessted.
--> laggygamerz.com/forum/index.php?/topic/382-kaelac%E2%80%99s-guide-to-damage-tenacity-reisistance-and-debuffs-in-neverwinter/
//Bellistor
You don't have to use it. For classes like GWF, yes, Lostmauth is a pretty big difference but take note that GWF is just about the only class that benefits a large amount from the set in PvP.
If you want combat advantage? Add the stupid formula in to it, then. Seeing as you seem to know the formulas, then that should be a simple matter. Just multiply non-crits by 15% + whatever your bonus is, and add it on to crits. Simple as that. The sheet is there, you have the ability to use it, but no one is forcing you to. Also funny note, this actually means non-crits will end up doing even more damage since being multiplicative here > additive.
Disciple of Strength/Dexterity/whatever is a flat damage bonus. By your logic, you also have x% amount of damage bonuses from feats etc. - JUST ADD THEM ON. It's not that hard.
The only DPS class that this doesn't apply to is probably GWF, because of how broken their damage multipliers currently are + how much they benefit from the Lostmauth set. No other class benefits as much.
And NO. Critical Severity is NOT what's affected by Tenacity. It's the overall damage of critical hits that is. With 40.2% Tenacity, the damage of non-crits and crits is as following:
Non-critical hits: 59.8% of base damage
Critical hits: 35.76% of base damage
Before DR calculations. It's NOT a crit sev reduction, it reduces the damage of the whole attack, which is more than a crit sev reduction. THIS is why crit isn't as effective in PvP as raw damage is. Unless you have insane damage multipliers like GWF does, then not even Lostmauth will make up for that full damage difference, especially if the value of Tenacity is higher.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
PvPDam(nor) = base damage * (1 + RI % – DR %) * (1- TeR%)
PvPDam(crit) = base damage * (1 + RI % – DR %) * (1- TeR%) * (1+ total crit severity %) * (1- TeR %)
- OK. Naming it a crit sev reduction was misleading and wrong. The extra DR from Tenacity is simply multiplied twice to crits.
- The combat advantage is working better for non-crits. Yes. I have around 95% mark uptime in PvP so I calculate it with CA.
- Your information was for all classes. In case of a high crit GWF and maybe others (TR?) Losmauth is changing the min/maxed threshold between power and crit. Agreed.
- Power and the damage supporting stat need to be multiplied. Consider this for your sheet. If you have 16k Power (+40%) and stat at 30(+20%) this produces +68% or +60%... this will affect the calculated balance too.
//Bellistor
sorry to see you go Sand Storm your help was appreciated
I find stack as much crit as you can the power usually takes care of its self in the items but the brutal offense and savage defense are the way to go enchantment wise when you plug in the changes into your spread sheet with my scores
jhp
i read ( 1- ten )*(1 - ten ) whereas as far as i know it should be 2*(1 - ten )
happy to read you again
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
--> (1 - ten )^2 = 0.36
--> 2*(1 - ten ) = 1,2
The opponents tenacity would increase your damage...
If you mean (1 - 2*ten ) in other words doubled tenacity then the base damage would be reduced to 20% and if anyone reaches 50% tenacity (yes, i know... theoretically) he would ignore critical hits... completely ;-)
//Bellistor
Sorry to see you go, tnx for all usefull info.
PS what game did you move to/play now ?
Very Best
can I convert weapon damage bonus to power (in order to use existing formulas) for instance?
I mean something like:
I think power and arp might be from more importance but no testing from my side but personal experience and its allways a question oft the class and enchants against you that decides if your stats are wasted or not
The highest Arp i saw was 17k+ from a GWF
I also saw near maxed warlocks with no deflect but high defence , easy to beat with my lock 1,2k less geared
Imo it's a balance oft stats and enchants, P vorp defintely is worse than my other enchants (not mentioning t fey), so i guess crit and crit severity are not the best option for my class
Simple test on a dummy will only give theoretical advice
If i would only focus on PVP i probably would buy power/arp instead of power/crit for offence slots
thats a garanty to performa againast high armored and tanky classes