I dont agree with a ICD for Burning guidance - as the boon is available for more than just the Paladin class. DC's or others that heal should not suffer because of Paladins broken combo.
Vow and Prism absolutely need to change. Vow gives off way too many procs. I concur with giving Vow a 1s cooldown and adjusting the actual "heal" to appropriate levels. I strongly wish for Prism to be completely reworked into something I can actually use all of the time and not get hate messages because I tried to balance the need to save my party vs lagging them to death.
I cannot use a Daily on a Dragon in WoD. This is NOT right and it is completely Prism/Vow's fault.
Burning guidance is completely useless for those classes in its current form, my suggestion is to improve the amount of damage it does when it activates, making it better for healers who do not proc things rapidly, but to also give it an icd, so classes like paladin don't go wild with it.
but when you include clerics into the mix it clouds the issue. being able to give 25-40% of your ap in 6 seconds is part of the clerics feat set. without that 1.6 il will have a substantial gap in their bubble.
and a few second gap is enough to wipe the party. just try and do a pickup egwd with 2k ilers.
Well just to be practical, clerics or GF's who give AP boosts will almost always be present in PUG's or pre-mades. My point was just to say that OP's are very useful off the bat when they hit 70 even with just 1,6k ilvl in epic skirmishes, or maybe even in easier 1.6k dungeons so we can't put EGWD in as an example.
Just to stay on topic here, All i wanted to say is that Pally's just make the game way too easy and I agree with the OP that they need to be balanced out.
Frankly i'd prefer if there was another way for pally's to tank other than constantly casting DP. Maybe DP could be a contingency skill that get's people out of sticky situation (just throwing the thought out there).
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
I don't disagree with the sentiments about Divine Protector. 100% uptime on DP makes dungeons like easy mode, I know this as both an OP Tank and a Virtuous DC (the higher geared/skilled the party the easier the mode). However the problem is this; the OP tanks by taking damage off the rest of the party - DP is the only real way this works.
Before DP is adjusted we need reliable, spamable threat generation that is high enough (or repeatable enough) to keep mobs focussed on us.
Sanctuary working instantly would help as well. Sanctuary also creating threat would be a big help in this regard as well, then the fact we cannot attack while we have it up would be suitably mitigated and we would be able to more reliably turn certain mobs and so on.
Sacred Weapon, Banishment and Absolution are powers that need to be examined as well. For example Sacred Weapon makes Oath Strike do what Oath Strike does for Protection making all your attacks generate extra threat would be far better than only the 4 single target powers. Banishment is a power that is counter to the game, it sits in your bar doing nothing until an emergency or you run a good power, its just a trash power for tanks. Absolution is just ineffective, a limited buff on 2 people is a waste of a slot and points.
Pretty much this exactly-- Coming from a Longtime AC Virtuous DC and newbie Tankadin player.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Frankly i'd prefer if there was another way for pally's to tank other than constantly casting DP. Maybe DP could be a contingency skill that get's people out of sticky situation (just throwing the thought out there).
the bubble is not for my benefit. the problem is with little to no real agro control i cant keep bosses on me while using the skills i need to survive. so bubble is more for keeping everyone else alive because we cant taunt worth a lick. even with justice proccing free taunts. but me surviving with shield of faith up and/or circle of power. no real hardship. i'd block too but the pitiful heal from sanctuary doesnt do a whole lot. and since we cant attack while blocking.....
the taunt portion of binding oath seems to be broken, we dont have the ae damage that a conq/stam build gf does. what we have is a whole lot of protection skills with very little agro tied to them. only vow works well, but there goes bane or binding oath or circle or templars or burning light, and it only works on 1 target.
so bubble is our saviour, since we cant keep the mobs on us we can at least soak up the damage the squishy's are taking
now if burning light taunted ( why does only devotion get a bonus). or there was a taunt to sanctuary, or if binding oaths taunt actually worked, or if oath strike proced an ae taunt and didnt gimp our already low damage ( seriously??? we have 1 single target encounter power that does damage and 6 ae encounters that do damage but our main taunt skill reduces them by 75%).
the thing is bubble will get nerfed ( and it should be). but we'll get nothing in return to keep us able to do our role. just look at SW's and how long they've been languishing only to be told "we're trying to figure out what class balance means".
Not much to be said that hasn't already been said; my main is a Protector GF and I started leveling an OP to have another tank and I'm just... confused looking at these powers and skill tree.
How did they expect this to work, really? I mean, the GF really could use a few more abilities themselves that are hard 'taunts', but the OP has zero. Oh, SUUUUUURE - tab turns into an AOE taunt, but it doesn't refill fast enough or generate enough threat to matter. The only option left is bubbling the party.
The fear I have is that any change might supersede the GF further - we're already thought of as inferior because of the need of a healer. How would you mechanically differentiate the OP from a GF? You can't just give them AOE taunts, threat buffs and longer shield power - you're just a GF by another name at that point (especially since armor models aren't exactly distinct...). But you're not tanking if you're not holding aggro, so... it does need to happen at the same time as the bubble nerf.
OP Paladin's, Need major rework, they are so under-powered not so much in PvE, just better options to tank, but PvP its ridiculous how under powered they are.
Any Paly regardless of build or gear can be killed easily by a controller class, if there are two, and they are not HAMSTER, Palys has 0 chance, especially with controllers classes getting 90% proc rate of their drains from damage/cc.
Not to mention any class can simply walk away from a Paly who are so slow compared to every other class.
GF is far superior to OP Palys for PVE or PvP, they tank just as well, and provide a ton more damage where it is needed, on the bosses.
As far as Palys, topping damage charts, are only doing so from minor AOE damage to multiple mobs, compare spike damage which is what counts in dungeons, and they lose out badly.
They have nerfed/desgined Paly damage to nothing, made their so called OP abilities, on such long animations there about useless, and keep reducing their surviabilty to the point Palys, cant hold up.
OP Palys damage is by far the lowest off all classes, and their defense is garbage in PvP, and only useful as a back up for PvE tanking, as GF are a much betterrrrrr option for tanking, even with group buffs from Paly's.
The difference is most people are playing against Paly's that over gear them, and never get a chance to see them against equal level player's, for PvP, DP are perfect where they are, OP PvE are fine, just not as good as GF's, PvP they are a train wreck of badness.
lol are you jk? have you ever played a gf???? xDDDD dude your only saying stupid things.... Or you making your pally very wrong... My main is GF, and i played OP too, but i delete this toon cause its too easy and boring to play with... But well, since you dont know what your talking im gonna explain.
Direct resistence: OP have way more than GF Aggro: GF have more than OP Knigth Value vs OP shift: Do the same thing, but GF takes half damage if a party member gets hit GF daily vs OP daily: GF dont have any daily that reduce damage taken or gives party immunity Gf shift vs OP shift: 80% do GF and 60% to pally GF tab vs OP tab: GF do a small debuff, OP earn more damage resistence GF vs OP Temp Hitpoints: GF can only earn hitpoints by using Iron Warrion (like 5-25% extra hitpoints)... palladins can earn 200% their HP's GF vs OP Buff: Into the Fray for the win GF vs OP Healing Rate: GF can only heal by life steal or using Fighter's Recovery (its a daily), palladine can use shield and heal at the same time. GF vs OP Damage: GF is a single target damage dealer (better on PVP), OP is a AoE damage dealer (Better on PVE)
So, to conclude:
GF: Buff/Debuff and Aggro taker OP: Primary Tank, more DR, Healer, Better dailys and a lot more Temp Hitpoints
If you cant play a easy class (OP) dont try to play a GF
lol are you jk? have you ever played a gf???? xDDDD dude your only saying stupid things.... Or you making your pally very wrong... My main is GF, and i played OP too, but i delete this toon cause its too easy and boring to play with... But well, since you dont know what your talking im gonna explain.
Direct resistence: OP have way more than GF Aggro: GF have more than OP Knigth Value vs OP shift: Do the same thing, but GF takes half damage if a party member gets hit GF daily vs OP daily: GF dont have any daily that reduce damage taken or gives party immunity Gf shift vs OP shift: 80% do GF and 60% to pally GF tab vs OP tab: GF do a small debuff, OP earn more damage resistence GF vs OP Temp Hitpoints: GF can only earn hitpoints by using Iron Warrion (like 5-25% extra hitpoints)... palladins can earn 200% their HP's GF vs OP Buff: Into the Fray for the win GF vs OP Healing Rate: GF can only heal by life steal or using Fighter's Recovery (its a daily), palladine can use shield and heal at the same time. GF vs OP Damage: GF is a single target damage dealer (better on PVP), OP is a AoE damage dealer (Better on PVE)
So, to conclude:
GF: Buff/Debuff and Aggro taker OP: Primary Tank, more DR, Healer, Better dailys and a lot more Temp Hitpoints
If you cant play a easy class (OP) dont try to play a GF
lets address your assertions 1 at a time.
Direct resistence: OP have way more than GF op has a little more dr in the bulwark tree, gf has 20% dmg reduction as the protector capstone, 15% bonus to ac/defense scores as a heroic feat. advantage gf. without those feats they have identical dr.
Knigth Value vs OP shift: Do the same thing, but GF takes half damage if a party member gets hit knights valor is a toggle. and provides 35% dr to the gf (if speced for it) and 50% to the group ( which gets transfered to you). shift provides. 60% dr to the pali and 30% dr and 1-2k heal to the group if they are in 15' of the pali.
GF vs OP Healing Rate: GF can only heal by life steal or using Fighter's Recovery (its a daily), palladine can use shield and heal at the same time. fighters recovery means you can dps and heal at the same time. or block&attack&heal at the same time. yes its a daily. one that i can fire off every 12 seconds on my gf while tanking. without sacrificing a ton of offense to recovery.
GF daily vs OP daily: GF dont have any daily that reduce damage taken or gives party immunity villans menace reduces damage the gf takes. and you still have the toggled encounter kv that is 30% dmg reduction all the time.
GF tab vs OP tab: GF do a small debuff, OP earn more damage resistence both agro the target. op earns dmg resistance. gf earn a large dr debuff.
GF vs OP Damage: GF is a single target damage dealer (better on PVP), OP is a AoE damage dealer (Better on PVE) enforced threat deals ae damage = to burning light. but its instant and taunts targets. line breakers deals ae damage = relentless assault and doesnt knock back and provides a dr buff to the gf. cleave and WMS provide ae damage from at wills. compared to the slow animation of radiant strike.
so now we're down to bubble and templars wrath being the only things keeping palis afloat.
personally i think you should probably invest some time playing both classes again and learning what skills do what.
both classes are extremely easy to play. the only thing i cant do on my gf that i can do with my pali is healerless tank ecc. and thats mostly due to not being able to keep the other folks alive with bubble. which we all agree needs to be toned down.
Proper built/ geared paladins are currently ruining PvP.
Excuse me good sir, I am NOT ruining PvP.
That being said, it is probably because I have chosen to focus solely on PvE with Strongholds.
thats the thing about it leeroy , everything single nerf call comes becuse of something happening in pvp, just like my off topic gwf i dont use lol set but i do good dps as fabricant can confirm but everyone want it nerf because of a build used on a gwf in pvp #firstworldproblems
Actually not all calls for a nerf come from PvP, a lot of this discussion is centred on PvE players looking for the class to be improved and balanced better.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
To the OP. No. Just No. I'm not going to comment on specifics but you're right, you aren't playing a tank and you're suggestions would make it so that I couldn't play a tank either.
No.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
To the OP. No. Just No. I'm not going to comment on specifics but you're right, you aren't playing a tank and you're suggestions would make it so that I couldn't play a tank either.
No.
Actually, I have played both tank and healer, the thread is old and since then I have done a lot of experimentation with both. Believe me, I know what I am talking about, the OP is broken and it needs to be rebalanced.
Comments
Just to stay on topic here, All i wanted to say is that Pally's just make the game way too easy and I agree with the OP that they need to be balanced out.
Frankly i'd prefer if there was another way for pally's to tank other than constantly casting DP. Maybe DP could be a contingency skill that get's people out of sticky situation (just throwing the thought out there).
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
Some of my best friends are Imaginary.
the taunt portion of binding oath seems to be broken, we dont have the ae damage that a conq/stam build gf does.
what we have is a whole lot of protection skills with very little agro tied to them. only vow works well, but there goes bane or binding oath or circle or templars or burning light, and it only works on 1 target.
so bubble is our saviour, since we cant keep the mobs on us we can at least soak up the damage the squishy's are taking
now if burning light taunted ( why does only devotion get a bonus). or there was a taunt to sanctuary, or if binding oaths taunt actually worked, or if oath strike proced an ae taunt and didnt gimp our already low damage ( seriously??? we have 1 single target encounter power that does damage and 6 ae encounters that do damage but our main taunt skill reduces them by 75%).
the thing is bubble will get nerfed ( and it should be). but we'll get nothing in return to keep us able to do our role. just look at SW's and how long they've been languishing only to be told "we're trying to figure out what class balance means".
How did they expect this to work, really? I mean, the GF really could use a few more abilities themselves that are hard 'taunts', but the OP has zero. Oh, SUUUUUURE - tab turns into an AOE taunt, but it doesn't refill fast enough or generate enough threat to matter. The only option left is bubbling the party.
The fear I have is that any change might supersede the GF further - we're already thought of as inferior because of the need of a healer. How would you mechanically differentiate the OP from a GF? You can't just give them AOE taunts, threat buffs and longer shield power - you're just a GF by another name at that point (especially since armor models aren't exactly distinct...). But you're not tanking if you're not holding aggro, so... it does need to happen at the same time as the bubble nerf.
Direct resistence: OP have way more than GF
Aggro: GF have more than OP
Knigth Value vs OP shift: Do the same thing, but GF takes half damage if a party member gets hit
GF daily vs OP daily: GF dont have any daily that reduce damage taken or gives party immunity
Gf shift vs OP shift: 80% do GF and 60% to pally
GF tab vs OP tab: GF do a small debuff, OP earn more damage resistence
GF vs OP Temp Hitpoints: GF can only earn hitpoints by using Iron Warrion (like 5-25% extra hitpoints)... palladins can earn 200% their HP's
GF vs OP Buff: Into the Fray for the win
GF vs OP Healing Rate: GF can only heal by life steal or using Fighter's Recovery (its a daily), palladine can use shield and heal at the same time.
GF vs OP Damage: GF is a single target damage dealer (better on PVP), OP is a AoE damage dealer (Better on PVE)
So, to conclude:
GF: Buff/Debuff and Aggro taker
OP: Primary Tank, more DR, Healer, Better dailys and a lot more Temp Hitpoints
If you cant play a easy class (OP) dont try to play a GF
Direct resistence: OP have way more than GF
op has a little more dr in the bulwark tree, gf has 20% dmg reduction as the protector capstone, 15% bonus to ac/defense scores as a heroic feat. advantage gf. without those feats they have identical dr.
Knigth Value vs OP shift: Do the same thing, but GF takes half damage if a party member gets hit
knights valor is a toggle. and provides 35% dr to the gf (if speced for it) and 50% to the group ( which gets transfered to you). shift provides. 60% dr to the pali and 30% dr and 1-2k heal to the group if they are in 15' of the pali.
GF vs OP Healing Rate: GF can only heal by life steal or using Fighter's Recovery (its a daily), palladine can use shield and heal at the same time.
fighters recovery means you can dps and heal at the same time. or block&attack&heal at the same time. yes its a daily. one that i can fire off every 12 seconds on my gf while tanking. without sacrificing a ton of offense to recovery.
GF daily vs OP daily: GF dont have any daily that reduce damage taken or gives party immunity
villans menace reduces damage the gf takes. and you still have the toggled encounter kv that is 30% dmg reduction all the time.
GF tab vs OP tab: GF do a small debuff, OP earn more damage resistence
both agro the target. op earns dmg resistance. gf earn a large dr debuff.
GF vs OP Damage: GF is a single target damage dealer (better on PVP), OP is a AoE damage dealer (Better on PVE)
enforced threat deals ae damage = to burning light. but its instant and taunts targets.
line breakers deals ae damage = relentless assault and doesnt knock back and provides a dr buff to the gf.
cleave and WMS provide ae damage from at wills. compared to the slow animation of radiant strike.
so now we're down to bubble and templars wrath being the only things keeping palis afloat.
personally i think you should probably invest some time playing both classes again and learning what skills do what.
both classes are extremely easy to play. the only thing i cant do on my gf that i can do with my pali is healerless tank ecc. and thats mostly due to not being able to keep the other folks alive with bubble. which we all agree needs to be toned down.
That being said, it is probably because I have chosen to focus solely on PvE with Strongholds.
thats the thing about it leeroy , everything single nerf call comes becuse of something happening in pvp, just like my off topic gwf i dont use lol set but i do good dps as fabricant can confirm but everyone want it nerf because of a build used on a gwf in pvp #firstworldproblems
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
No.