Pick Up Group channel

pherrow

So, as Rustlord has suggested in the recent past, why not create a PUG custom channel in game? I mentioned this in another thread but I want to bring more views to the topic.

So much time is spent here, in the forums, appealing to the pvp guilds and BIS players (mostly) in an effort to improve the QoL for pugs. Why can't you guys put some of that effort in game and take a bit of control and help yourselves?

The possibilities of the channel..

-Organize premades with near equally geared folks and fair comps in domination.
-Organize large premades for GG which will sqeeze out some of the BIS players or premades if you have enough participants
-Some of you experienced folks will have an opportunity to mentor others on gear and tactics
- you have a way to help pvp thrive by strong-arming fair matches for new folks exploring pvp.


Now before someone rides in here on their high horse and proclaims they will not stoop to the level of premades, take a second to realize that it's simply an effort to challenge folks in your "bracket" if you will. And if you still don't want to premade, think about just simply getting 20 folks to solo sinc q for GG and let the match happen as it will.

Will this take some time and a little work? Sure, but I think the rewards for your time should make it worth it.

Now all you need is someone to take the reigns. If you guys have someone to get this started, I will purchase a 3mo TS server for you. That will help for q sincs and coordination for some of your matches if you like. However, the offer is good only for a name I recognize on these forums. Let me know, cheers

kvet

Of course, there's the downside that it won't actually change anything other than now you'll have an average mortal premade going against a BiS premade rather than 5 mortal PUGs going against a BiS premade. Actually... you'll still have that, the only difference is that you queued as a team rather than as individuals.

I support what you're trying to achieve here - but at the end of the day a pug is a pug whether it's assembled before or after. The only real difference is that prearranged pugs will perhaps filter out under geared and inexperienced players who will still simply queue up and pug that way, and since you're generally more likely to come up against a full BiS premade if you queue with 5 people anyway........ while I think having a LFG channel for PvP might be a useful tool, I don't think it will really solve the problem you're trying to solve.

benskix2

Do you really not even know what PUG means?

There is no way in hell I'm going to waste my very limited play time trying to get 20 people to queue at the same time and hoping the queue pops for all of them at the same time. If everyone had that much time to play this game they would already be BiS and this wouldn't even be an issue.

kvet

Of course I know what PUG means. But whether you pick up that group in a channel before hand (aka, adhoc premades) or you get that group via the queue system isn't going to solve the problem because the queue system doesn't differentiate particularly well.

@benskix2 sorry, thought you were talking to me! I'll leave my post here though since it's still apropos to the topic

benskix2

In the amount of time it would take to accomplish this you could play half a dozen normal matches, and at least one of them is likely not to totally suck balls. This is a case of the cure being far worse than the disease.

vladious1977

Uhm.... *scratches head* Create the channel and try to get people to use it. Like neverwinter legit. They did not ask for anything special or do anything special. Or ask others to create there vision. They created the channel told people about it and people started using it. So why create a thread asking about it when you can actually do something about it yourself? Take the reigns. Be a leader. Show others what your vision for the community is with action not words. This is what makes DnD great. You can create your own vision and have it realized. Granted it does not translate so well in a MMORPG.

pherrow

kvet wrote: »

Of course, there's the downside that it won't actually change anything other than now you'll have an average mortal premade going against a BiS premade rather than 5 mortal PUGs going against a BiS premade. Actually... you'll still have that, the only difference is that you queued as a team rather than as individuals.

I support what you're trying to achieve here - but at the end of the day a pug is a pug whether it's assembled before or after. The only real difference is that prearranged pugs will perhaps filter out under geared and inexperienced players who will still simply queue up and pug that way, and since you're generally more likely to come up against a full BiS premade if you queue with 5 people anyway........ while I think having a LFG channel for PvP might be a useful tool, I don't think it will really solve the problem you're trying to solve.

Of course just making premades would be foolish...

This is not to simply make premades to enter dom or gg, it's to assemble premades to fight each other. This will allow for more balanced matches. I.e people in channel assemble 2 teams of reasonably equal item level, balance the team composition and sinc que.

pherrow

benskix2 wrote: »

Do you really not even know what PUG means?

There is no way in hell I'm going to waste my very limited play time trying to get 20 people to queue at the same time and hoping the queue pops for all of them at the same time. If everyone had that much time to play this game they would already be BiS and this wouldn't even be an issue.

Then don't waste your time with it, I mean, I don't care what you do honestly.

drkbodhi

@matthiasthehun76

I am in. I believe that matthiasthehun and I could develop and run it. I will need him to respond though. I guess I/we would need a bit of a tutorial on TS... and the sinc Q process.

This is at least a start. You, again, are extremely generous. _/\_

benskix2 wrote: »

In the amount of time it would take to accomplish this you could play half a dozen normal matches, and at least one of them is likely not to totally suck balls. This is a case of the cure being far worse than the disease.

Have you been trying to queue for GG lately? The fastest I have been able to get in was 20 minutes.

This is a proactive measure to remove the abuse. If you like the abuse, then by all means stay out, then complain that we are too OP. This is a chance to start leveling the playing field WITHOUT waiting for Cryptic to do something.

@vladious1977

This is pherrow's effort to develop this. Of course he would be a founding member, but considering that he is in a PvP guild this is his generosity reaching out.​​

pherrow

vladious1977 wrote: »

Uhm.... *scratches head* Create the channel and try to get people to use it. Like neverwinter legit. They did not ask for anything special or do anything special. Or ask others to create there vision. They created the channel told people about it and people started using it. So why create a thread asking about it when you can actually do something about it yourself? Take the reigns. Be a leader. Show others what your vision for the community is with action not words. This is what makes DnD great. You can create your own vision and have it realized. Granted it does not translate so well in a MMORPG.

I was bringing forward an idea from another member that would allow the folks with all of the complaints to HELP THEMSELVES. And yes, I know how it would work, the channel idea is exactly the same premise as the legit channel. But why the heck would you think that I would take the reigns? This isn't for me.

All I am offering is the suggestion (from Rustlord) and rent free TS for 3mo. I understand that some people may not have the resources to purchase a TS or may not want to purchase a TS subscription. That's fine, I just think it could be a helpful tool that folks can use if they so choose. If they don't, that's fine too but my offer still stands.

benskix2

drkbodhi wrote: »

@matthiasthehun76

Have you been trying to queue for GG lately? The fastest I have been able to get in was 20 minutes.

​​[/quote]

How long do you think it's going to take you to get 20 people to join your TS, balance their class composition and gears, and successfully queue together? My guess is anywhere from 3 hours to never.

pherrow

drkbodhi wrote: »

@matthiasthehun76
Of course he would be a founding member

Glad to hear you are considering this. Because of your time schedule, it will probably have to wait until the weekend, which should give you some time to generate ideas. Sinc ques are easy, I'll explain.

I will not be a founding member, however. This is for a couple of reasons, one being the hate generated towards PvP guilds and the propensity of folks to run their mouths behind the safety of the internet. And also, I don't want anyone to feel pressured or lead (or mislead, depending on how they see it) any direction they do not want to go. This will be your show. I'll only enter TS upon request for admin purposes if needed.

kvet

The process is pretty simple - my guild has been doing it in DOM for years. You get two full teams, then queue at the same time. Wait for the queue to pop and immediately when it does one person on each team says or types something. If both queues popped at the same time, you accept, otherwise everyone declines and you try it again. Sometimes -- I repeat: Sometimes -- you manage to get both teams into the same instance. It's vastly harder to do this in GG because simply getting 20 people together and focused on the same thing at the same time is hard, but it's possible to do.

drkbodhi

With the right motivation and desire... I believe that we could start with Channel chat then move up from there.

They do not always choose the BiS players to enter GG. They will use the team dynamic and allow that to mess up the queue for the other side.

In case you have not read kweassa's study of the effects of ONE 5-man premade on a 20 player match. It states that the injection of one 5-man party will create a lopsided effect for the rest of the players. If you inject a 10 man, after we build the numbers, that will mess things up as much as they are being messed with NOW.

Maybe we could even get @kweassa in on this.​​

quspiv

It's funny that you expect players to group together, spend at least several mins to sync their matches to avoid BIS geared premades, while all premades have to do is press "party join" button.

PUG"s are PUG's because they lack time to farm better gear. This could've work if Devs would give us Lobby system (like in MOBA games). This way having such channel would help, but there's a problem of potential abuse if rewards would be available.


Imo the best and easiest solution is just adding additional solo queue only, so players can choose which one they prefer without limiting or removing anything.

drkbodhi

This is a stop-gap measure quspiv.​​

pherrow

quspiv wrote: »

It's funny that you expect players to group together, spend at least several mins to sync their matches to avoid BIS geared premades, while all premades have to do is press "party join" button.

PUG"s are PUG's because they lack time to farm better gear. This could've work if Devs would give us Lobby system (like in MOBA games). This way having such channel would help, but there's a problem of potential abuse if rewards would be available.


Imo the best and easiest solution is just adding additional solo queue only, so players can choose which one they prefer without limiting or removing anything.

It's funny that people spend so much time here talking about it. And if the devs don't act what do you do in the mean time? Come here a cry some more?

I don't expect anyone to do anything, if they want to give it a try, then good. If not, well...I guess there is always the forums...

quspiv

pherrow wrote: »

quspiv wrote: »

It's funny that you expect players to group together, spend at least several mins to sync their matches to avoid BIS geared premades, while all premades have to do is press "party join" button.

PUG"s are PUG's because they lack time to farm better gear. This could've work if Devs would give us Lobby system (like in MOBA games). This way having such channel would help, but there's a problem of potential abuse if rewards would be available.


Imo the best and easiest solution is just adding additional solo queue only, so players can choose which one they prefer without limiting or removing anything.

It's funny that people spend so much time here talking about it. And if the devs don't act what do you do in the mean time? Come here a cry some more?

I don't expect anyone to do anything, if they want to give it a try, then good. If not, well...I guess there is always the forums...

There's just few of us who support the PUG's here. Most of them dont even check the forums. If Devs wont change anything queue times may increase even more, at least until another NCL comes.

I only try to explain you that your suggestions wont solve anything for those PUG's.

drkbodhi

If they are not looking in the forum... they are paying attention to zone chat. There are a ton of ways that this can be developed with using the forums.

I know for a fact that most of my guild would join this group. Right there that is about 100 regularly active members with about 200 characters. After a while people in these matches will be seeing what seems to be a PuG messing with the PvP guilds that choose to haunt GG​​

cloudius1978

This is a good community driven initiative and I support it fully.

I too, will get my guild to support this. We have our roots in PVE and many are only just beginning to explore the realms of PVP (certainly without the gears and enchants to compete with top geared players) so this could provide a more conducive environment to learn.

Syncing queue is not complex as Kvet has pointed out. To naysayers who say this is a waste of time or pointless effort, we appreciate your "insights" but you can take your negativity elsewhere. If you've the time to write post after post here on how this will not work, your time is better spent in game farming a few more RP or guiding new players on PVE/PVP.

On the time needed to sync queues, while it may take longer to sync queues, I strongly believe many will rather wait 10-30 mins for a good match than to be roflstomped by BIS premades or better geared semi-premades and then wait 5mins at the campfire for the game to end.

Of course, this is entirely optional, if you still prefer to try your luck and pug queue, no one is stopping you from doing so. Especially for PVEers who are just looking to clock their 4 PVP matches fast to get the daily ADs.

kvet

A lobby system like Cryptic built for STO years ago, but hasn't ever considered (that we know of) for Neverwinter, you mean?

icyphish

I fully support this suggestion, a very constructive one too! Thumbs up!

rustlord

pherrow wrote: »

~

I remember having mentioned this idea in passing, more of a sudden thought, in response to the bickering from another thread. Thanks to @pherrow for actually putting the work to bring this idea forward. However, like him, I also belong to a PvP guild and it's not our place to take reigns on it.

drkbodhi wrote: »

~

I appreciate that the community is taking the initiative here, rather than continuing to pile requests that may or may never happen. Feel free to add me @rustlord in game if you still need help with that sync queue system.

benskix2 wrote: »

Do you really not even know what PUG means?~

I hope we're not considering PUGS to be the undisciplined, impossibly uncoordinated and uneducated foster children of PvP. In my terms, pick-up-group is the product of autoteaming, and in all the meaning of the words "pick up" could just be any "group" selected from an uncategorized pool of players in an offhanded manner, without discriminating between gear or experience. In that case, a channel such as pherrow is suggesting is the appropriate outlet of a "pick up group". In no way should the term PUG be derogatory to a player.

As a semi-BiS, experienced and skilled player, even I am allowed to PUG.

quspiv wrote: »

~

This thread is more likely an appeal to community leaders, guild leaders and channel owners; the small guilds currently treated the minority (due to the gear divide) despite their numbers. It is up to those leaders to continue to spread it to players who do not frequent the forums.

TL;DR;

Whether or not it is to succeed, @pherrow or I have no idea. You have had two threads asking PvP guilds. Think of this as our response, and as much as we can do for you. We are competitive players who invest real money, time and energy to stay on top. For us to do more, such as even try to join in any of these groups, would be like having a shark in a fish tank, and that would invalidate the whole effort.

The thread should progress naturally, so this will be my last post here. I would rather not influence the topic much further.

Thank you.

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matthiasthehun76

Hi Guys an dear @drkbodhi !

Yes, the best solution would be, if Cryptic would finally do something after 2 years of complaints from the community, all these solutions can only be a late fire fight on a burning house.

I don't know personally, how many it will attract, more so, that we can't advertise it anywhere.

I would love to be an active member, but as an old fool form a military and old European family, i have my own principles. (Those, who wish to laugh now, please don't hold yourself back, i am used to it.) I would really love to see the following ideas incorporated. First many would find it odd, but rest assured in long term it would benefit us all and bring out a new bread of PVP player, one who would rely more on his/her skill, than on exploits or bug abuse.

1. Not any and i repeat not any Cryptic or PWE employee should be a Mod/Admin or any kind of "judge" there, cause double employment isn't healthy at all, as we can see it in other Channels, i personally advocate 100% transparency, so no hiding behind titles or anything else, everybody would be equal, like real Gladiators, even Channel Mods, no exceptions whatsoever. No ranking amongst us, in my humble opinion it only tickles the human ego and it isn't accurate at all, many factors add to winning or losing. No VIP titles or other disgusting things to divide players.

2. Harsh enforcement of rules. Zero tolerance for match fixing and any sort of manipulations, like they were used in NCL, like traitors, agent provocateurs and so on. Of course every reported person would have the right to clear himself and i would love to see the use of the RL law term: "Presumption of Innocence" aka "Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat". No useless 3 day bans, i would personally like to see a long term ban from the Channel, no life time ban, cause i believe in giving everybody a second chance, but 3 days is a silly thing. We can see in the game, that many do nasty things and they take in count the 3 day ban and then 3 days later they come back and are millionaires, bad joke.

3. Decent and old school behavior. While "heat of the battle" speak would be allowed, i would urge decent behavior, not like it is currently in PVP and in Zone Chat after a match, where many trample on the corpses of losing players and humiliate poorer players. Hey we are all human beings, hurting the others ego is not a gentleman's way.

4. No intentional bug uses, like wheel or anything. I personally don't care, that Cryptic didn't fix many of those bugs, many since Beta, i personally wouldn't take part in a match, where my team mates use them and i would also ask my opponents to play clean.

5. I would love to see at least one Channel Mod online during playtime, so if a players need advises on anything, be it a build or any problems or just a small talk, they could find somebody, a human being to talk to.

7. No Censorship in the Channel, real 'Freedom of Speech". You guys in the US have them in the Constitution too, so why take a duct tape and put it in front of our mouths. Silence is always a breading ground for weed.

8. Player's Court. Some games have them and i think it's a wonderful idea. Of course the above mentioned roman law phrase would apply.

Last, but not least, i don't really know, how long some exploiting groups and the affiliated persons will allow me to stay in the game, they work very hard each day to get me kicked and silenced for uncovering and reporting many of their exploits, like i reported the entire structure of the manipulated NCL League event with screenshots. Not that anybody is interested really...

Thank you for reading and if i won't be an active member, due to my not so healthy position, i still would love to take part in clean matches! Maybe it would be the best for the Channels interest, if my tainted name would be left out, so you guys can create a fantastic game inside the game, we'll see., it really depends on Cryptic, if they allow the work of such a Channel, who know s that either?!

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Misfits

uhh, isn't "PuG" the group you get when you solo queue?, so wouldn't grouping up before queuing make you a premade no matter how well-geared/low-geared you are?

drkbodhi

Okay... if you don't want to be part of it that is fine. Others will jump at this chance. Say what you want and add as many flames as you desire... but this is going forward.

I will be working on guidelines... i.e. no exploiting, no stomping, no leaving. I always work on a "3 strike" system.​​

crimpatul

I like the idea and I would like to support it. If I can help with something just ask, but there are already (IMHO) very capable people in this.

drkbodhi

crimpatul wrote: »

I like the idea and I would like to support it. If I can help with something just ask, but there are already (IMHO) very capable people in this.

This is why I always expect the unexpected... and I am never disappointed. I appreciate the supportive words.
​​

kvet

"Silence is always a breading ground for weed." -- weed is legal Colorado and Washington State...

This feels a bit like a metaguild. I don't dislike the idea at all.

I agree that no formal affiliate of Cryptic (employee or volunteer) should have any controlling interest, I've heard too many tales of... other... in-game channels that have experienced... problems... of that sort.

I would suggest only one rule: Don't be an HAMSTER$hole

Then, use common sense to adjudicate things on a case by case basis. The channel will need to have Admins and Moderators - can't get around that. There will always be riffraff that needs bouncing.