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Neverwinter is utterly unfriendly to new players(the players) and that will stop it from growing.
tyrzn
Member Posts: 23 Arc User
The game itself is a lot of fun, with a ton of stuff to do and a lot of room to grow. However, there are now barriers that keep people from enjoying much of the game. Those barriers are the player base. You have provided them with too much power to negatively effect other players.
You have made a critical error in allowing players to be the "moderators" of the game. Those early adopters that have maxed or nearly maxed characters get to dictate to everyone else far too often when it comes to dungeons.
#1 When a person hits 60 with a new character, they inevitably have "garbage" gear. The game is designed to allow players to get better gear by running epic dungeons. These dungeons are ranked in difficulty by gear score, well that's the general idea. However, those before mentioned higher geared players keep that from happening.
#2 Those dictator gamers now want to run the dungeons as fast as possible or as easy as possible. So, they will keep on kicking out players without 12-13K gear scores from dungeons that require 6800-8300. Sometimes it's because they demand a cleric. They aren't kicking themselves though for NOT being a cleric. It's all about what they want and they will punish everyone else to get it.
These people are an extreme detriment to new players and/or players that only get to play every once in awhile and have only recently hit 60. So, you have this and they aren't great players because they haven't played much, just trying to learn epic dungeons constantly getting kicked out. EVEN though the game says their gear is good enough and that is the only way they can get good gear, other than buy it. Which may be another more sinister reason to keep on kicking new people out, trying to force them to buy that gear they keep on running epic dungeons for and selling and keeping everyone else out out. Whatever, the reason they are majorly impacting the gaming experience of casual or new players in a game breaking way.
I have voted against kickout over and over and complained for pugs to stop, not kicking me, but other people. Sometimes they get angry and kick me too, but whatever. If my vote mattered I could stop it, but clearly it doesn't take all 4 of us. This is unacceptable. It sends the message that new players are not welcomed. The truth is new players are NOT welcome by the majority of the player base for "end game" material aka epic dungeons.
Someone will say the solution is to join a guild. The entire point of PUGS is for people that do not want to join a guild to be able to play all content with random people. What is happening is 2-3 friends(from a guild) join a PUG and dictate against all new players. The people getting kicked out DO have the required gear level for the content, but they want superior geared for selfish reasons.
What point does a new player have to keep on waiting till Dungeon Delves comes around only to keep on getting kicked out? Every once in awhile a nice group will let them stay, but it is very rare. I've known a few very good max geared people go in there and carry the entire dungeon for the normal geared 60s, it does happen but it is the extreme minority. Most of the time the normal geared people spend all of their Dungeon Delve time getting kicked out of groups. It takes a LONG time to get into the group for the specific dungeon to get the piece of gear you need to drop, so you get in and keep on getting kicked out. Who enjoys NOT being able to play a game? Waiting 30 minutes for a dungeon only to be kicked out and lose your place in the queue and then oops dungeon delve is over. Why would someone want to literally waste time like that over and over?
The only solution to this is remove the kick ability, unless 4 out of 5 people agree. Even after 4 out of 5 people agree only allow them the ability to kick a limited number of times. Maybe 2-3. IF they leave the dungeon and rejoin they do NOT get more kicks, I know these people would exploit it that way if they could. The kick feature still need to exist for those times when you have a player purposefully tormenting the group and trying to cause wipes or whatever, but the function has utterly been abused. Which is why it needs to have a limited number of uses.
The same people doing this to the normal geared people in dungeons run around in 60 pvp matches screaming at everyone that doesn't have max pvp gear, for daring play and hurt their team. Which always makes me laugh, someone that loves pvp and has pvped all the way to 60 is just supposed to stop playing PVP and go run those epic dungeons that they ARE NOT ALLOWED to run by the elitists... to get gear to run pvp again? It's beyond absurd on what these "elitists" demand. Yes, don't play pvp to get better pvp gear, until you have better gear... Their complaining is absurd but it is tolerable, because they cannot kick people. PVP match balance is a whole different issue and not NEARLY as game breaking, losing in pvp still actually let you play it. These people don't even get to play the dungeons.
I've played Neverwinter from release on the PC, and recently migrated to the XBOX ONE and I can honestly say I have never seen a more hostile MMO crowd, I'm sure some obscure ones exist, but they certainly never made it main stream. Killing someone over and over is nothing compared to keeping people from experiencing content or progressing their characters. I've played on PVP everywhere servers in other mmos and none of them had this kind of hostility towards new players. The player base was never handed the tools to literally keep removing people from game content AKA zones, kill them sure, but not stop them from playing.
This is literally the biggest issue with Neverwinter right now. You see people give up on PUGs begging in general chat now, to join a T2 dungeon. PUGS were supposed to be for them, not guilds(groups) to go in an dictate or monopolize. How long do you think these people will be fine just sitting and waiting to play, day after day being treated like this before they quit? Why would they tolerate this instead of playing something else?
By the way I've won most T2 dungeons without clerics, you never NEED a cleric if the rest of the groups is good, I said most... Yet, some people act like they have to have a DC... wrong. If you think the group must have a cleric kick yourself and make room next time, stop kicking the person that just joined, until they get smart and modify how the kick feature doesn't work at all into something useful, moderate yourselves people. Speak out about this nonsense.
What finally set me off was a Castle Neverwinter group kicking everyone out that was under 17K GS... It's gotten that absurd. It's been done many times with people in 10K gear... that know how to play.
The PC community still abuses this system, but that's PC... Casual console gamers will not put up with it, nor should they have to. Heck people in general that want to enjoy the game and play the game shouldn't be treated like this.
FYI Destiny has a TON more players than this, and they don't go around kicking people like this from PUGs... in fact they cannot do it. Hmm wonder why more people play it and WOW where kicking isn't tolerated like this etc...
You better pay attention Neverwinter if you EVER want to be a massively successful game and not just an mmo. You've got a great game, but these players need to be put in check seriously and soon as in ASAP. Go ahead and do it to the PC crowd to, that is long overdue. They are a loud vocal group that will scream if you take away their moderating powers, but they aren't about to quit and leave behind their max characters that let them "feel powerful" and beat up on normal geared people.
You have made a critical error in allowing players to be the "moderators" of the game. Those early adopters that have maxed or nearly maxed characters get to dictate to everyone else far too often when it comes to dungeons.
#1 When a person hits 60 with a new character, they inevitably have "garbage" gear. The game is designed to allow players to get better gear by running epic dungeons. These dungeons are ranked in difficulty by gear score, well that's the general idea. However, those before mentioned higher geared players keep that from happening.
#2 Those dictator gamers now want to run the dungeons as fast as possible or as easy as possible. So, they will keep on kicking out players without 12-13K gear scores from dungeons that require 6800-8300. Sometimes it's because they demand a cleric. They aren't kicking themselves though for NOT being a cleric. It's all about what they want and they will punish everyone else to get it.
These people are an extreme detriment to new players and/or players that only get to play every once in awhile and have only recently hit 60. So, you have this and they aren't great players because they haven't played much, just trying to learn epic dungeons constantly getting kicked out. EVEN though the game says their gear is good enough and that is the only way they can get good gear, other than buy it. Which may be another more sinister reason to keep on kicking new people out, trying to force them to buy that gear they keep on running epic dungeons for and selling and keeping everyone else out out. Whatever, the reason they are majorly impacting the gaming experience of casual or new players in a game breaking way.
I have voted against kickout over and over and complained for pugs to stop, not kicking me, but other people. Sometimes they get angry and kick me too, but whatever. If my vote mattered I could stop it, but clearly it doesn't take all 4 of us. This is unacceptable. It sends the message that new players are not welcomed. The truth is new players are NOT welcome by the majority of the player base for "end game" material aka epic dungeons.
Someone will say the solution is to join a guild. The entire point of PUGS is for people that do not want to join a guild to be able to play all content with random people. What is happening is 2-3 friends(from a guild) join a PUG and dictate against all new players. The people getting kicked out DO have the required gear level for the content, but they want superior geared for selfish reasons.
What point does a new player have to keep on waiting till Dungeon Delves comes around only to keep on getting kicked out? Every once in awhile a nice group will let them stay, but it is very rare. I've known a few very good max geared people go in there and carry the entire dungeon for the normal geared 60s, it does happen but it is the extreme minority. Most of the time the normal geared people spend all of their Dungeon Delve time getting kicked out of groups. It takes a LONG time to get into the group for the specific dungeon to get the piece of gear you need to drop, so you get in and keep on getting kicked out. Who enjoys NOT being able to play a game? Waiting 30 minutes for a dungeon only to be kicked out and lose your place in the queue and then oops dungeon delve is over. Why would someone want to literally waste time like that over and over?
The only solution to this is remove the kick ability, unless 4 out of 5 people agree. Even after 4 out of 5 people agree only allow them the ability to kick a limited number of times. Maybe 2-3. IF they leave the dungeon and rejoin they do NOT get more kicks, I know these people would exploit it that way if they could. The kick feature still need to exist for those times when you have a player purposefully tormenting the group and trying to cause wipes or whatever, but the function has utterly been abused. Which is why it needs to have a limited number of uses.
The same people doing this to the normal geared people in dungeons run around in 60 pvp matches screaming at everyone that doesn't have max pvp gear, for daring play and hurt their team. Which always makes me laugh, someone that loves pvp and has pvped all the way to 60 is just supposed to stop playing PVP and go run those epic dungeons that they ARE NOT ALLOWED to run by the elitists... to get gear to run pvp again? It's beyond absurd on what these "elitists" demand. Yes, don't play pvp to get better pvp gear, until you have better gear... Their complaining is absurd but it is tolerable, because they cannot kick people. PVP match balance is a whole different issue and not NEARLY as game breaking, losing in pvp still actually let you play it. These people don't even get to play the dungeons.
I've played Neverwinter from release on the PC, and recently migrated to the XBOX ONE and I can honestly say I have never seen a more hostile MMO crowd, I'm sure some obscure ones exist, but they certainly never made it main stream. Killing someone over and over is nothing compared to keeping people from experiencing content or progressing their characters. I've played on PVP everywhere servers in other mmos and none of them had this kind of hostility towards new players. The player base was never handed the tools to literally keep removing people from game content AKA zones, kill them sure, but not stop them from playing.
This is literally the biggest issue with Neverwinter right now. You see people give up on PUGs begging in general chat now, to join a T2 dungeon. PUGS were supposed to be for them, not guilds(groups) to go in an dictate or monopolize. How long do you think these people will be fine just sitting and waiting to play, day after day being treated like this before they quit? Why would they tolerate this instead of playing something else?
By the way I've won most T2 dungeons without clerics, you never NEED a cleric if the rest of the groups is good, I said most... Yet, some people act like they have to have a DC... wrong. If you think the group must have a cleric kick yourself and make room next time, stop kicking the person that just joined, until they get smart and modify how the kick feature doesn't work at all into something useful, moderate yourselves people. Speak out about this nonsense.
What finally set me off was a Castle Neverwinter group kicking everyone out that was under 17K GS... It's gotten that absurd. It's been done many times with people in 10K gear... that know how to play.
The PC community still abuses this system, but that's PC... Casual console gamers will not put up with it, nor should they have to. Heck people in general that want to enjoy the game and play the game shouldn't be treated like this.
FYI Destiny has a TON more players than this, and they don't go around kicking people like this from PUGs... in fact they cannot do it. Hmm wonder why more people play it and WOW where kicking isn't tolerated like this etc...
You better pay attention Neverwinter if you EVER want to be a massively successful game and not just an mmo. You've got a great game, but these players need to be put in check seriously and soon as in ASAP. Go ahead and do it to the PC crowd to, that is long overdue. They are a loud vocal group that will scream if you take away their moderating powers, but they aren't about to quit and leave behind their max characters that let them "feel powerful" and beat up on normal geared people.
Post edited by tyrzn on
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for instance it took me a few days to figure out i needed to spend real money to buy keys then i never got the stuff in those boxes.
New players with no Guild and no buds in game are just farming fodder for the "elites".
I really like this game but am becoming more and more despondent regarding the behaviour in here.
Thanks for the post
You're supposed to use those dungeons to get to 10K. Not the AH. Even with 10K or full T2 gear, without the enchants etc... to get your GS to 13K, or in the case of Castle Neverwinter to 17K... you still expect to be kicked numerous times. It's repugnant how awful this community is for the most part. The vote kick must be extremely modified or removed all together.
If you and 4 other people have a Leroy Jenkins in your group, that 1 person effects 4 other people. Who can just leave the group and start over if your remove the vote kick. I've only ever seen one player pulling a Leroy Jenkins, and you know what happened? I got on my mic and talked to them and asked them to be more patient. Guess what? They listened and we finished T2 dungeon again yesterday without a DC. Even if that 1 person refused to listen and kept causing wipes or whatever, that 1 person effects a total of 4 people.
These 2-3 people getting together and vote kicking people for the entire Dungeon Delve events effects 20+. It's far better to stop those 2-3 vote kickers that effect a ton of new people. Then worry about kicking 1 person that can effect 4 max.
Considering they are going to change it to where you cannot vote kick AFTER the final boss fight happens so someone in the fight gets the gear, they are ignoring that will increase the vote kicking BEFORE the fight all the more. They said they will stop people from kicking while the roll window is open as well. None of that address the real problem, at least those people got to play a little bit.
"The vote-to-kick system was initially implemented to give players the option to make changes to their group for several different group scenarios."
That is what they said it was for, and they are leaving that intact. So, they will keep on mass kicking everyone and it will not deter them one bit. All they have to do is not have the loot window open and keep on kicking. Since they are going to patch it in August they may as well fix it for real, not this fix that will not change anything for new players or new characters.
I am quite confused by this. Are you talking about the forum moderators, such as myself, or what? Cause we (the forum moderators) have very little impact on what happens with the game. We moderate the forums.
The vote-to-kick issue is going to be fixed, these things do take time to implement, but @yetweallfalldown said that it will be put in place with the next content update. Just have to wait patiently to see when that is going to be. Not sure if they mean with the next mod release or with the next patch.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
That is completely irrelevant to players who are (a) new, and don't know how to play the AH and such yet, or (b) would actually prefer to play the game the way the designers intended, progressing through the dungeons in order and stuff.
(IMHO, those are both the sorts of people the game should be optimized for, not endgame min-maxers.)
The folks with it enabled and the folks with it disabled go to different queues. The folks with it disabled may end up with someone they can't get rid of, but they will never, ever be subject to a malicious votekick. The folks with it enabled will continue to have things as they are.
Do that, and see how wait times on the two queues turn out, and what happens to general player satisfaction.
There is a very large group who have poisoned the well and made other new player do the same to perpetuate the problem. Hopefully you play long enough to run into the large group who are the exact opposite and help you learn and enjoy the game, and maybe that side of the community will become the majority.
If you are ever having problems running dungeons, feel free to reach out. I personally run stuff every day with my regulars and sometimes need to fill spaces on the team with randoms. We run them for drake seals, salvage, refining, and fun. Spellplauge is one of our dailies. Live @oox snap
My issue is the fixes being implemented in the future, do not fix the actual problem. That fix only pertains to loot. If you start the boss fight, you get to loot it. That's all the fix does. It doesn't stop them from kicking you before the fight, kicking you as soon as you join the dungeon, over and over and over. It's a pointless fix that can easily be circumvented. The only fix is to the real problem is limit how many times each person can kick even if they leave a dungeon or remove it all together.
"New players in an instance cannot be kicked right away; there is a three minute buffer before kicking is allowed, but we firmly encourage adventurers to not kick your own party members unless absolutely necessary. "
"Queues will also respect roles when refilling, meaning if a Great Weapon Fighter is kicked, only a DPS can fill that role again. Finally, if a certain number of players are kicked from an instance, the queue will stop refilling completely, leaving anyone left to fend for themeselves. Believe us, you don't want to be alone with Chartillifax."
The current state of affairs shows they can and will circumvent rules against needless kicking and exploit them. I've watched groups kick people for over 45 minutes until I gave up on trying to stop them my no vote on the kick isn't enough, they weren't kicking me... They need to require all 4 people to agree to a kick for it to take effect. Nothing less than 4 if they want to keep the kick function. They also need to limit how many times a person can vote kick overall in X amount of time. Give them 3 vote kicks an hour or something, so they can't kick people till the queue runs out, then join another queue and do it again. It would be a lot easier to just remove vote kick, vote kicking does a lot more damage than good.
The very idea of vote kicking encourages selfish play in a group settings. So, you don't like how someone plays? Kick em. Don't talk to them, don't try and teach them, don't try and help them, it's all about you so just kick the bad player. The game should be fostering the idea of you NEED each other and NEED to work together, only then will this nonsense stop. Of course these are only my opinions on a really messed up situation.
I'm currently working on my DC... so yeah he doesn't have issues with being kicked because he's a DC. Thanks for the offer. Hope to run into you in game and may give you a shout.
Wow that is a fantastic idea! I would 100% support that change in a heartbeat. It would be very interesting to have totals for the 2 groups visible in the queue menu (perhaps beside each entry?) at all times to check out where the majority of people are.
I do enjoy helping people get their gear and run through content. Feel free to shoot me a message or party/game invite as well. GT - MikeyFlies.
<<GOON SQUAD>>
There truly are some moronic idiots out there
If you are covered in white and green gear.. don't PvP.
If you are not wearing any pants or a shirt.. don't PvP.
If you can't be bothered to at least put rank 5 and 6 enchantments in your slots.. don't PvP.
I have an alt DC that is currently level 58 with a 7k GS without trying. I don't even play her. She has gone from level 11 to 58 by invocations and leadership alone. I have the full T1 high prophet set waiting in her inventory to put on as soon as she hits 60. I bought the entire set from the AH for 12k. The second she hits 60, she will be over 10k gear score. It takes very little effort to get a new character to 10k, esp considering that all T1 and T2 sets drop from Tiamat and are now dirt cheap in the AH. You can get an entire set for one day's worth of rough AD conversion.
Vote to Kick has already been addressed once by the devs and they say they will address it again in the future.
Too many players in this game would rather whine and cry instead of investing a little effort.
ASYLUM
You never deserve to get yelled at by your teammates, full stop--at least not in a PUG. If you're in a guild that's seriously into something, then it's like being on a sports team, and yelling is sometimes helpful in moderation. But as a rule? Hell no, take your aggro <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> elsewhere.
It's a fair assumption that anyone running <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear in PvP simply does not understand what they're doing. Yelling at them will not resolve that. To throw the last line of your post back at you, constructive criticism would go a long way toward solving the problem ("Hey, did you know that you can get your entire high prophet set for 20k AD? You won't get beaten up too badly in here if you do that, and the rest of us will get a buff from it, too!")
1. I have never yelled at any random player in this game. Nor do I talk trash to opposing players. I am in a party chat 99% of the time with my friends. I can not even speak to my random teammates.
2. If you join PvP with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear, odds are you will sit in the camp fire after the first few mins. If you sit in the camp fire while your teammates are out there fighting down a man, you absolutely deserve to be yelled at the entire time you sit in the camp fire.
3. If you join PvP with <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gear (5-8k) and get yelled at for your mere presence in the game, You get ZERO sympathy from me.
ASYLUM
Bull. You have to get the pvp gear by playing pvp. Really doesnt matter what t1 set you have, the pvp skill makes it you take an absolute beating at first. Its like that in every mmo. Dont want to run with fresh 60s? Form your own group. Want to pug? Play with the hand you are dealt and quit whining about it all being your teammates fault.
Did you know that you can buy blue level 60 armor pieces from the AH that have tenacity on it so that you can go into PvP with tenacity from the very beginning?
You are absolutely capable of having gear with tenacity before you play a single game of PvP.
ASYLUM
1. I did not suggest that you ever yelled at anyone. I was responding to your suggestion that people "deserved" to get yelled at. In almost all cases, "no, they don't."
2. This is, frankly, never acceptable. If the score is 700-100, then I can absolutely understand standing there just waiting for the pain to end (try as I might though, I can't do it.... it's too boring, so I just go back out to die over and over to the 21k rogue that is eating my lunch). Absent that particular case, though, no one should ever do this. That said, while yelling might make you feel better, it really has no purpose. The guy probably has his TV muted, anyway.
3. Not asking you to sympathize, but I do disagree with your worldview. Everyone is new at some point, and it's doubtful that you even know what Tenacity IS as a new 60, unless you have been PvPing while you are leveling.
edited to add: Go Vols!
As far as the idea anyone is benefiting much from selling most gear from most dungeons.... That might be true of the very rare high-ticket stuff that's not bound (which hopefully the vtk fix fixes that anyway). But for everything else? Not really. I don't even bother trying to sell it most of the time, because it's worth more to salvage than the realistic prices in the AH will get you. In fact, some people have so much of this, they auction it off for less than salvage value so they can get real AD rather than the rough you get from salvage. Which is why you see rings that salvage for 6K for 4 or 5 sometimes, and why we wonder why anyone would post or pay 10K for that thing, it only salvages for 8K... That, and so many people play the common items are easy to get and there's lots in the auction house and the prices reflect how common they are. Bottom line, I can't see how anyone is getting rich off of 4KAD helmets or whatever. Which is why I just bought a set for my alt when it hit 60; I salvaged enough of the bound stuff to know essentially how worthless it really is. And essentially traded in (sold, salvaged) a bunch of honestly acquired purple gear from drops and chests for AD, that I then used to buyout other items for the alt. Now, getting a greater mark of power for 500KAD is another matter entirely, no thanks!
Having seen guilds stop fighting to kick everyone on normal Shores during a ring/necklace drop, and having seen one person in a guild kicking everyone to take over the lobby (current campfire) in Castle Never for their guild. Indeed. That's the sort of "player" causing these other things, and those are the scum that need to have the systems changed to specifically keep them from doing those things. So they stop playing, or should I say, stop ruining the game for us humans.
While this is true the tenacity is gained by losing a of stats. Tested it out on my most recent character, trust me, you are better off in pve gear then that <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Yet as we all know, some people play nothing but PvP and have classes that make more glory more fast. A team of 5 classed and specced and geared and premade is going to slaughter any other team that isn't.... No matter the GS being a few hundred points different. (IDK about if you personally happen to have amassed 1500 tenacity or what have you though, but if you're the only one on the team, maybe you just don't die quite as much) But that's all a PvP issue not a matter of how some PvE types are mean, rude, greedy, inconsiderate dbags.