...
High vizier steals 450 defense from the target. Are you perhaps talking about the shadow weaver set?
The reason you see a lot of us CWs with 2 and 2 right now is the arms and chest from Draconic Templar make it super easy to get your armor pen whee it needs to be and nets you an overload slot.
I assure you I am not talking about the shadow weaver set. The tooltip is correct for pvp but *not* for PVE. In PVE each stack actually boosts damage against those targets by 10% for a max of 30% damage at 3 stacks - which steal time will apply in one go.
@solidtrunks And what Enchants, companions, and artifacts do you use, please enlighten us.
Lantern of revelation and tiamat orb are must have for any DPS class, the third slot is up to you. Companion, one augment of your choice, Fire Archon is a good choice, assassin drake, dancing blade, its up to you, enchants, offensive is radiant and dark until you reach the armor pen cap, then replace with radiant, for defensive, Brutal is a good choice, HP and defense are good to us, we have a good deflect chance.
I love reading all the high vizier is only choice stuff, and only high prophet, debuffs dont cross stack, so say tiamat, 1-2 DCs in high prophet needed, them 1-2 need DT set, then 5th has we he can hybrid set, debuffs covered, clockin in at 50% about with just set bonus.
Same for high vizier and shadow weaver (also a couple renegade path ones) to get the most out of things
So diversity passively makes everyone stronger is my point, tiamat lets diversity shine, but unfortunately everyone reads the 1 guide available for each class and calls it gold
@solidtrunks See the problem is, I have around your same GS and yet I have better stats, and I only have ONE artifact the Portal Stone, its epic not legendary. So I lol at your build as I sit over here with a better build not relying on artifacts for my GS.
@solidtrunks See the problem is, I have around your same GS and yet I have better stats, and I only have ONE artifact the Portal Stone, its epic not legendary. So I lol at your build as I sit over here with a better build not relying on artifacts for my GS.
In another thread you said you are using DT armor, so isn't that going to buff your gs just like having another artifact?
Also, in that thread you said you had 6300 power 3000 crit and 2500 arpen. He's got 4000 more power than you how are your stats better?
You ask him all these questions baiting him for info just topple fun and lol at him?
If your builds so much better please provide the same details and info rather than vaguely say you have better stats and lol.
@solidtrunks See the problem is, I have around your same GS and yet I have better stats, and I only have ONE artifact the Portal Stone, its epic not legendary. So I lol at your build as I sit over here with a better build not relying on artifacts for my GS.
In another thread you said you are using DT armor, so isn't that going to buff your gs just like having another artifact?
Also, in that thread you said you had 6300 power 3000 crit and 2500 arpen. He's got 4000 more power than you how are your stats better?
You ask him all these questions baiting him for info just topple fun and lol at him?
If your builds so much better please provide the same details and info rather than vaguely say you have better stats and lol.
Thanks for your reply, see my build guide, I put the link at my signature.
Tears? What tears? I just got another perfect radiant so now I am even further over your build. But hey, you keep saying you are the pro and yours is the best. I will sit here and lol lol at your build while I am amazed at mine.
No need for insults from either party. Solidtrunks already posted his build. Patsfire, you say yours is better. That is all well and good. I agree with Ketthoover that you should post your build as he did in that link for comparison including rotation used. Maybe you could learn from each other instead of a "mine is better than yours" back and forth. Also, you might help other new players as well since there are new people logging on everyday.
Post edited by b0redgamer on
Signature under construction, stay tuned. GT: b0red gamer
Tears? What tears? I just got another perfect radiant so now I am even further over your build. But hey, you keep saying you are the pro and yours is the best. I will sit here and lol lol at your build while I am amazed at mine.
whats a "perfect radiant" never heard of one before.
I personally love the Templar suit for my DC I keep the hp set in bag and swap it out during boss fights as it's entirely useless on anything outside of a boss fight. The Templar overload slots have been pretty fun to play with. The draconic suit was nice but in the past 100+ dungeon runs my heal over times have kept players topped off without issue or need of the 20% heal bonus and we do 20 minute cn runs pulling entire floors at a time without health ever dropping
Chuck Norris
Play how you want with what you want. If you wipe change things up till you don't wipe anymore!
Anyone wanna do cn speed runs for fun feel free to contact me!
Tater tot 91685
...
High vizier steals 450 defense from the target. Are you perhaps talking about the shadow weaver set?
The reason you see a lot of us CWs with 2 and 2 right now is the arms and chest from Draconic Templar make it super easy to get your armor pen whee it needs to be and nets you an overload slot.
I assure you I am not talking about the shadow weaver set. The tooltip is correct for pvp but *not* for PVE. In PVE each stack actually boosts damage against those targets by 10% for a max of 30% damage at 3 stacks - which steal time will apply in one go.
That only makes sense if your party has no armor pen and you are boosting their damage by removing enemy armor. I see no way that you would increase your parties damage by stealing defense like that. Also, the keyword in HV tooltip is TARGET, which as a DND and MTG player says to me that AOE attacks only trigger the ability if they target an opponent with the cursor, and then would only affect that specific target and not any subsequent enemies not targeted but hit by the AOE effect
In that case the critical servery and life steal bonus from Shadow weaver will beat out HV every time in a properly geared party. Particularly since those buffs stack 3x then double if different types of powers are used. This could give your party either 18% more crit severity or 676 lifesteal, meaning you can help them stay alive if you have no healer in the dungeon or help them, particularly the high crit builds in the group, hit even harder based on the encounter power rotation you use. Whereas HV is ONLY effective at increasing dps from poorly geared teammates against specific targets and mitigating your own incoming damage. And you would rarely get 30% increase, since the keyword is defense, which is after AC in the order of operations, ego you can attempt to steal the nearly 1500 def from the target but find that they only have 700 and anything beyond that is wasted. Make sense?
Ive read the link before, he seems fairly confident but its all still just how he thinks things work backed by test data from the game.
"That only makes sense if your party has no armor pen and you are boosting their damage by removing enemy armor. I see no way that you would increase your parties damage by stealing defense like that. Also, the keyword in HV tooltip is TARGET, which as a DND and MTG player says to me that AOE attacks only trigger the ability if they target an opponent with the cursor, and then would only affect that specific target and not any subsequent enemies not targeted but hit by the AOE effect"
It sounds like you have read the link provided but have chosen not to believe it? That is from the pc (with our mod) where they reverse engineered the calculations (or close enough...) and determine how the high vizier/high prophet mods work. You can see the results vs the test dummies in trade of blades which apparently do not have armor. Steal time applies this buff/debuff to multiple targets (it can be seen on all the dummies in the trade of blades area...). Target seems to be anything hit by the encounter in this case.
"Ive read the link before, he seems fairly confident but its all still just how he thinks things work backed by test data from the game."
If you are familiar with the scientific method that is *exactly* the correct approach - examine the data, construct a model, then test the model. When the results close match those predicted by the model it can be accepted and used for predictions until refined or disproved. The onus is on you to prove the way you think it works and back it up with test data and results as these users have done.
My tests appear to match the results of the link when hitting test dummies and other players in runs with me (who have full armor penetration) have seen their damage bump up when the buff is active. I can't make you believe any of this but I would suggest you test this yourself.
"That only makes sense if your party has no armor pen and you are boosting their damage by removing enemy armor. I see no way that you would increase your parties damage by stealing defense like that. Also, the keyword in HV tooltip is TARGET, which as a DND and MTG player says to me that AOE attacks only trigger the ability if they target an opponent with the cursor, and then would only affect that specific target and not any subsequent enemies not targeted but hit by the AOE effect"
It sounds like you have read the link provided but have chosen not to believe it? That is from the pc (with our mod) where they reverse engineered the calculations (or close enough...) and determine how the high vizier/high prophet mods work. You can see the results vs the test dummies in trade of blades which apparently do not have armor. Steal time applies this buff/debuff to multiple targets (it can be seen on all the dummies in the trade of blades area...). Target seems to be anything hit by the encounter in this case.
"Ive read the link before, he seems fairly confident but its all still just how he thinks things work backed by test data from the game."
If you are familiar with the scientific method that is *exactly* the correct approach - examine the data, construct a model, then test the model. When the results close match those predicted by the model it can be accepted and used for predictions until refined or disproved. The onus is on you to prove the way you think it works and back it up with test data and results as these users have done.
My tests appear to match the results of the link when hitting test dummies and other players in runs with me (who have full armor penetration) have seen their damage bump up when the buff is active. I can't make you believe any of this but I would suggest you test this yourself.
"That only makes sense if your party has no armor pen and you are boosting their damage by removing enemy armor. I see no way that you would increase your parties damage by stealing defense like that. Also, the keyword in HV tooltip is TARGET, which as a DND and MTG player says to me that AOE attacks only trigger the ability if they target an opponent with the cursor, and then would only affect that specific target and not any subsequent enemies not targeted but hit by the AOE effect"
It sounds like you have read the link provided but have chosen not to believe it? That is from the pc (with our mod) where they reverse engineered the calculations (or close enough...) and determine how the high vizier/high prophet mods work. You can see the results vs the test dummies in trade of blades which apparently do not have armor. Steal time applies this buff/debuff to multiple targets (it can be seen on all the dummies in the trade of blades area...). Target seems to be anything hit by the encounter in this case.
"Ive read the link before, he seems fairly confident but its all still just how he thinks things work backed by test data from the game."
If you are familiar with the scientific method that is *exactly* the correct approach - examine the data, construct a model, then test the model. When the results close match those predicted by the model it can be accepted and used for predictions until refined or disproved. The onus is on you to prove the way you think it works and back it up with test data and results as these users have done.
My tests appear to match the results of the link when hitting test dummies and other players in runs with me (who have full armor penetration) have seen their damage bump up when the buff is active. I can't make you believe any of this but I would suggest you test this yourself.
Im not disbelieving,as i have read the finding in that link he is saying exactly the same thing ad i am. Mechanics of the game stay the same, you are merely removing defense, which replaces armor pen if you want it to. You are not adding any sort of damage buff to your party. His formula shows the same thing, although he regrets to it as a buff and not a debuff, which leads me to think the part you are specifically referencing is related to the defenses you gain. You and i are going to have to agree to disagree, but as stands the way the mechanics of arm pen, dr and ri work an the way the set bonus is worded you only will increase damage output of a party that does not have sufficient RI. It is not the best set for a team player, clearly that is the one that lets you help keep your allies alive, which is your original post and part i am correcting you on.
Again, its theorycrafting. Its all speculation, and there is very little hard data in there to examine with so many variables that can throw it off. Don't talk down to me because you made a foolish blanket statement that contradicts the game but is in some convoluted way somehow supported by your interpretation of theory someone else wrote based on a few characters attacking an npc we dont have definitive stats from the devs for.
Are you still going on? I thought we were done here. But by all means, post all the pics you want LOL
Considering rank 10 is just that rank 10, they are not "perfect". At any rate I still say you should post your build as well in stead of just "mine is better than yours". Again you could learn from one another or help other players. Otherwise you are just saying "mine is better than yours". I could do it too, watch:
"My TR build is far better than yours as I have played on the pc for two years and I use separate sets for PVE and PVP. I have higher power, arm pen, double slotted rings, better artifacts and an augment companion."
Signature under construction, stay tuned. GT: b0red gamer
I cannot agree to disagree as his calculations, data, and my testing all confirm that high vizier stacks DO boost damage with ALL levels of RI (from feats, attributes, and armor penetration stat). You are *NOT* reading or interpreting the linked information correctly. Here is a direct quote of the damage buff they calculated (not guessed or whatever but determined through testing to best match the actual in game results)
"
Best way is to show via an example. Say you are a CW with 20% RI trying to kill a boss with 24% ArP and already stacked 3 stacks of High Vizier.
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+ debuff %) * (1+attacker RI – defender DR)
Effective HV debuff % = no. of stacks * base debuff magnitude * (1+ attacker RI% - enemy DR %)
= 3 stacks * 10% per stack * (1+ 0.2-0.24)
= 3 * 10* 0.96
= 28.8%
Substitute this back in base formula
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+0.288 ) * (1+0.2 -0.24)
= base damage * 1.288 * 0.96
= base damage * 1.23648
If the CW had zero ArP
HV debuff % = 3 x 10 * 0.76 = 22.8%
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+ 0.228) *0.76
= base damage * 0.93328
"
Note that the last part of the equation explains why you want more armor pen for this debuff damage boost to work at its best ("* (1+attacker RI – defender DR)"). High prophet and plague fire get reduced more depending on enemy RI but for high vizier if the other players have adequate armor penetration you can get the full benefit of the debuff/damage boost.
You are correct that this is not exactly a buff to the party but rather a boost to their damage vs tagets that have the high vizier stacks applied to them which in most cases is going to amount to the same result - a strong boost to damage output. You are incorrect that this is a substitution for armor penetration as instead it most helps those with RI = enemy DR and is thus synergistic with higher armor penetration.
"Again, its theorycrafting. Its all speculation, and there is very little hard data in there to examine with so many variables that can throw it off. Don't talk down to me because you made a foolish blanket statement that contradicts the game but is in some convoluted way somehow supported by your interpretation of theory someone else wrote based on a few characters attacking an npc we dont have definitive stats from the devs for."
This discussion was good right up until that statement. I was not talking down to you but rather trying to correct a somewhat common misunderstanding of the debuff/buff in PVE to help players make an informed decision. I am not the one making foolish statements without theory *AND* test data to back it up. Theorycrafting != speculation. Do you honestly believe that the way you think it works is more correct than the way many others have found it to work after many hours of testing, analyzing, and calculating?
We have strayed a fair bit OT so we should probably continue this discussion elsewhere (if needed) but I still am of the opinion that due to the strong DPS benefit of high vizier it is stronger than the split set benefits - despite their higher gear score - and the other full set benefits unless you can run a premade group where you have a couple of high vizier CW's to get more up time from the debuff and then add in other set bonuses to supplement.
I cannot agree to disagree as his calculations, data, and my testing all confirm that high vizier stacks DO boost damage with ALL levels of RI (from feats, attributes, and armor penetration stat). You are *NOT* reading or interpreting the linked information correctly. Here is a direct quote of the damage buff they calculated (not guessed or whatever but determined through testing to best match the actual in game results)
"
Best way is to show via an example. Say you are a CW with 20% RI trying to kill a boss with 24% ArP and already stacked 3 stacks of High Vizier.
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+ debuff %) * (1+attacker RI – defender DR)
Effective HV debuff % = no. of stacks * base debuff magnitude * (1+ attacker RI% - enemy DR %)
= 3 stacks * 10% per stack * (1+ 0.2-0.24)
= 3 * 10* 0.96
= 28.8%
Substitute this back in base formula
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+0.288 ) * (1+0.2 -0.24)
= base damage * 1.288 * 0.96
= base damage * 1.23648
If the CW had zero ArP
HV debuff % = 3 x 10 * 0.76 = 22.8%
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+ 0.228) *0.76
= base damage * 0.93328
"
Note that the last part of the equation explains why you want more armor pen for this debuff damage boost to work at its best ("* (1+attacker RI – defender DR)"). High prophet and plague fire get reduced more depending on enemy RI but for high vizier if the other players have adequate armor penetration you can get the full benefit of the debuff/damage boost.
You are correct that this is not exactly a buff to the party but rather a boost to their damage vs tagets that have the high vizier stacks applied to them which in most cases is going to amount to the same result - a strong boost to damage output. You are incorrect that this is a substitution for armor penetration as instead it most helps those with RI = enemy DR and is thus synergistic with higher armor penetration.
"Again, its theorycrafting. Its all speculation, and there is very little hard data in there to examine with so many variables that can throw it off. Don't talk down to me because you made a foolish blanket statement that contradicts the game but is in some convoluted way somehow supported by your interpretation of theory someone else wrote based on a few characters attacking an npc we dont have definitive stats from the devs for."
This discussion was good right up until that statement. I was not talking down to you but rather trying to correct a somewhat common misunderstanding of the debuff/buff in PVE to help players make an informed decision. I am not the one making foolish statements without theory *AND* test data to back it up. Theorycrafting != speculation. Do you honestly believe that the way you think it works is more correct than the way many others have found it to work after many hours of testing, analyzing, and calculating?
We have strayed a fair bit OT so we should probably continue this discussion elsewhere (if needed) but I still am of the opinion that due to the strong DPS benefit of high vizier it is stronger than the split set benefits - despite their higher gear score - and the other full set benefits unless you can run a premade group where you have a couple of high vizier CW's to get more up time from the debuff and then add in other set bonuses to supplement.
You can copy and paste to train and say you understand, or you could simplify because you do understand.
If you not at 24% Resistance Ignored when fighting a boss, then you lose 24% of your debuff.
Say you stack debuffs to 100% damage bonus, but 0 RI, you and team are only actually getting 76% damage bonus on bosses
Stack 100% damage bonus and have 20% RI you and team getting 96% damage bonus on bosses
Yes 100%. That is the point I was trying to make and quoted the relevant sections to clear up any misunderstanding. The high vizier debuff does allow you to do extra damage across all RI levels. He said he read and understood the information in the link but clearly did not. To clarify though it is the person doing damage against the debuffed mob who needs the RI to maximize the effect of the debuff (which is likely what you meant as well).
You and i are going to have to agree to disagree, but as stands the way the mechanics of arm pen, dr and ri work an the way the set bonus is worded you only will increase damage output of a party that does not have sufficient RI."
This appears to be saying that with 24% RI vs a 24% DR boss mob you would get 0 extra damage from the high vizier debuff. This does not match the link, my test dummy results, nor our actual results when fighting mobs.
I will apologize for the long post. I was attempting to show the relevant source material as he did not appear willing to accept what I was posting. I kept expanding and likely expanded a little too far. Again, sorry for that. I will also apologize (why not, on a roll lol) for so strongly advocating high vizier to everyone but I do think it is quite underrepresented and misunderstood currently on the xbox.
Yes 100%. That is the point I was trying to make and quoted the relevant sections to clear up any misunderstanding. The high vizier debuff does allow you to do extra damage across all RI levels. He said he read and understood the information in the link but clearly did not. To clarify though it is the person doing damage against the debuffed mob who needs the RI to maximize the effect of the debuff (which is likely what you meant as well).
You and i are going to have to agree to disagree, but as stands the way the mechanics of arm pen, dr and ri work an the way the set bonus is worded you only will increase damage output of a party that does not have sufficient RI."
This appears to be saying that with 24% RI vs a 24% DR boss mob you would get 0 extra damage from the high vizier debuff. This does not match the link, my test dummy results, nor our actual results when fighting mobs.
I will apologize for the long post. I was attempting to show the relevant source material as he did not appear willing to accept what I was posting. I kept expanding and likely expanded a little too far. Again, sorry for that. I will also apologize (why not, on a roll lol) for so strongly advocating high vizier to everyone but I do think it is quite underrepresented and misunderstood currently on the xbox.
@ group or personal, its basicaly saying, your debuff is subject to being resisted upto 24% of it effect on bosses.
Group is getting dmg boost for however much of your debuff "penetrated" the boss
Just noticed i sounded like a jerk in previous post, my bad :-D
Comments
I assure you I am not talking about the shadow weaver set. The tooltip is correct for pvp but *not* for PVE. In PVE each stack actually boosts damage against those targets by 10% for a max of 30% damage at 3 stacks - which steal time will apply in one go.
See damage resistance and debuffs
CuraEu DC 15.5K GS
Trunks Build TR PVE XboxOne: arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197800/trunks-build-trickster-rogue-pve-xbox-one-29-august-2015
Same for high vizier and shadow weaver (also a couple renegade path ones) to get the most out of things
So diversity passively makes everyone stronger is my point, tiamat lets diversity shine, but unfortunately everyone reads the 1 guide available for each class and calls it gold
In another thread you said you are using DT armor, so isn't that going to buff your gs just like having another artifact?
Also, in that thread you said you had 6300 power 3000 crit and 2500 arpen. He's got 4000 more power than you how are your stats better?
You ask him all these questions baiting him for info just topple fun and lol at him?
If your builds so much better please provide the same details and info rather than vaguely say you have better stats and lol.
GT: b0red gamer
Thanks for your reply, see my build guide, I put the link at my signature.
CuraEu DC 15.5K GS
Trunks Build TR PVE XboxOne: arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197800/trunks-build-trickster-rogue-pve-xbox-one-29-august-2015
I love your tears....
CuraEu DC 15.5K GS
Trunks Build TR PVE XboxOne: arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197800/trunks-build-trickster-rogue-pve-xbox-one-29-august-2015
GT: b0red gamer
whats a "perfect radiant" never heard of one before.
Chuck Norris
Play how you want with what you want. If you wipe change things up till you don't wipe anymore!
Anyone wanna do cn speed runs for fun feel free to contact me!
Tater tot 91685
That only makes sense if your party has no armor pen and you are boosting their damage by removing enemy armor. I see no way that you would increase your parties damage by stealing defense like that. Also, the keyword in HV tooltip is TARGET, which as a DND and MTG player says to me that AOE attacks only trigger the ability if they target an opponent with the cursor, and then would only affect that specific target and not any subsequent enemies not targeted but hit by the AOE effect
In that case the critical servery and life steal bonus from Shadow weaver will beat out HV every time in a properly geared party. Particularly since those buffs stack 3x then double if different types of powers are used. This could give your party either 18% more crit severity or 676 lifesteal, meaning you can help them stay alive if you have no healer in the dungeon or help them, particularly the high crit builds in the group, hit even harder based on the encounter power rotation you use. Whereas HV is ONLY effective at increasing dps from poorly geared teammates against specific targets and mitigating your own incoming damage. And you would rarely get 30% increase, since the keyword is defense, which is after AC in the order of operations, ego you can attempt to steal the nearly 1500 def from the target but find that they only have 700 and anything beyond that is wasted. Make sense?
Ive read the link before, he seems fairly confident but its all still just how he thinks things work backed by test data from the game.
It sounds like you have read the link provided but have chosen not to believe it? That is from the pc (with our mod) where they reverse engineered the calculations (or close enough...) and determine how the high vizier/high prophet mods work. You can see the results vs the test dummies in trade of blades which apparently do not have armor. Steal time applies this buff/debuff to multiple targets (it can be seen on all the dummies in the trade of blades area...). Target seems to be anything hit by the encounter in this case.
"Ive read the link before, he seems fairly confident but its all still just how he thinks things work backed by test data from the game."
If you are familiar with the scientific method that is *exactly* the correct approach - examine the data, construct a model, then test the model. When the results close match those predicted by the model it can be accepted and used for predictions until refined or disproved. The onus is on you to prove the way you think it works and back it up with test data and results as these users have done.
My tests appear to match the results of the link when hitting test dummies and other players in runs with me (who have full armor penetration) have seen their damage bump up when the buff is active. I can't make you believe any of this but I would suggest you test this yourself.
So, I'm proving my stats with facts, not like you that said that you are better and yesterday said that have 6300power with draconic templar, LOL
CuraEu DC 15.5K GS
Trunks Build TR PVE XboxOne: arcgames.com/en/forums#/discussion/1197800/trunks-build-trickster-rogue-pve-xbox-one-29-august-2015
Im not disbelieving,as i have read the finding in that link he is saying exactly the same thing ad i am. Mechanics of the game stay the same, you are merely removing defense, which replaces armor pen if you want it to. You are not adding any sort of damage buff to your party. His formula shows the same thing, although he regrets to it as a buff and not a debuff, which leads me to think the part you are specifically referencing is related to the defenses you gain. You and i are going to have to agree to disagree, but as stands the way the mechanics of arm pen, dr and ri work an the way the set bonus is worded you only will increase damage output of a party that does not have sufficient RI. It is not the best set for a team player, clearly that is the one that lets you help keep your allies alive, which is your original post and part i am correcting you on.
Again, its theorycrafting. Its all speculation, and there is very little hard data in there to examine with so many variables that can throw it off. Don't talk down to me because you made a foolish blanket statement that contradicts the game but is in some convoluted way somehow supported by your interpretation of theory someone else wrote based on a few characters attacking an npc we dont have definitive stats from the devs for.
"My TR build is far better than yours as I have played on the pc for two years and I use separate sets for PVE and PVP. I have higher power, arm pen, double slotted rings, better artifacts and an augment companion."
GT: b0red gamer
"
Best way is to show via an example. Say you are a CW with 20% RI trying to kill a boss with 24% ArP and already stacked 3 stacks of High Vizier.
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+ debuff %) * (1+attacker RI – defender DR)
Effective HV debuff % = no. of stacks * base debuff magnitude * (1+ attacker RI% - enemy DR %)
= 3 stacks * 10% per stack * (1+ 0.2-0.24)
= 3 * 10* 0.96
= 28.8%
Substitute this back in base formula
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+0.288 ) * (1+0.2 -0.24)
= base damage * 1.288 * 0.96
= base damage * 1.23648
If the CW had zero ArP
HV debuff % = 3 x 10 * 0.76 = 22.8%
Damage dealt = base damage * (1+ 0.228) *0.76
= base damage * 0.93328
"
Note that the last part of the equation explains why you want more armor pen for this debuff damage boost to work at its best ("* (1+attacker RI – defender DR)"). High prophet and plague fire get reduced more depending on enemy RI but for high vizier if the other players have adequate armor penetration you can get the full benefit of the debuff/damage boost.
You are correct that this is not exactly a buff to the party but rather a boost to their damage vs tagets that have the high vizier stacks applied to them which in most cases is going to amount to the same result - a strong boost to damage output. You are incorrect that this is a substitution for armor penetration as instead it most helps those with RI = enemy DR and is thus synergistic with higher armor penetration.
"Again, its theorycrafting. Its all speculation, and there is very little hard data in there to examine with so many variables that can throw it off. Don't talk down to me because you made a foolish blanket statement that contradicts the game but is in some convoluted way somehow supported by your interpretation of theory someone else wrote based on a few characters attacking an npc we dont have definitive stats from the devs for."
This discussion was good right up until that statement. I was not talking down to you but rather trying to correct a somewhat common misunderstanding of the debuff/buff in PVE to help players make an informed decision. I am not the one making foolish statements without theory *AND* test data to back it up. Theorycrafting != speculation. Do you honestly believe that the way you think it works is more correct than the way many others have found it to work after many hours of testing, analyzing, and calculating?
We have strayed a fair bit OT so we should probably continue this discussion elsewhere (if needed) but I still am of the opinion that due to the strong DPS benefit of high vizier it is stronger than the split set benefits - despite their higher gear score - and the other full set benefits unless you can run a premade group where you have a couple of high vizier CW's to get more up time from the debuff and then add in other set bonuses to supplement.
You can copy and paste to train and say you understand, or you could simplify because you do understand.
If you not at 24% Resistance Ignored when fighting a boss, then you lose 24% of your debuff.
Say you stack debuffs to 100% damage bonus, but 0 RI, you and team are only actually getting 76% damage bonus on bosses
Stack 100% damage bonus and have 20% RI you and team getting 96% damage bonus on bosses
This appears to be saying that with 24% RI vs a 24% DR boss mob you would get 0 extra damage from the high vizier debuff. This does not match the link, my test dummy results, nor our actual results when fighting mobs.
I will apologize for the long post. I was attempting to show the relevant source material as he did not appear willing to accept what I was posting. I kept expanding and likely expanded a little too far. Again, sorry for that. I will also apologize (why not, on a roll lol) for so strongly advocating high vizier to everyone but I do think it is quite underrepresented and misunderstood currently on the xbox.
@ group or personal, its basicaly saying, your debuff is subject to being resisted upto 24% of it effect on bosses.
Group is getting dmg boost for however much of your debuff "penetrated" the boss
Just noticed i sounded like a jerk in previous post, my bad :-D