Tiamat - Defending the Clerics

stpensive

With my DC, I almost always go to the white side to defend the clerics. Often, I think our group is doing a superior job of defending them but the progress bar for the cleric defense does not seem to reflect that. We could have trash not come near our cleric for an extended period but still the bar only inches up and behind the other progress bars of the other two clerics.

Have any of you seen this to be the case as well? Am I missing a component to what constitutes a successful defense (perhaps killing trash is more a factor than just keeping them at bay)?

Thanks.

draven165

Actually I have been wondering similar things. I have noticed often if you do not kill the adds, more do not spawn. Is it possible to have someone taunt the adds and just move them far away from the Clerics and just hold them there for the duration? Or as the OP asked, does killing the adds cause the meters to go up faster?

Sorry at work, bored while listening to calls from our Call Centers across the US and thinking. Imagine this...

3 Tanks, one at each Cleric taunting the adds and walking them almost to the dragon heads.
3 DC's, one on each Tank healing. The rest of the group waiting by the Dragon head for it to spawn
Once the Dragon heads are ready the DC's Sunburst all the adds off the cliff and we are good to go

That is if killing the adds does not affect the speed of the Cleric summoning.

darnximxdead

draven165 wrote: »

Actually I have been wondering similar things. I have noticed often if you do not kill the adds, more do not spawn. Is it possible to have someone taunt the adds and just move them far away from the Clerics and just hold them there for the duration? Or as the OP asked, does killing the adds cause the meters to go up faster?

Sorry at work, bored while listening to calls from our Call Centers across the US and thinking. Imagine this...

3 Tanks, one at each Cleric taunting the adds and walking them almost to the dragon heads.
3 DC's, one on each Tank healing. The rest of the group waiting by the Dragon head for it to spawn
Once the Dragon heads are ready the DC's Sunburst all the adds off the cliff and we are good to go

That is if killing the adds does not affect the speed of the Cleric summoning.

There an aura during the defending phase an basically pwns you, if you move pass the minion spawn points... soo.. can't move them too heads, plus have a higher chance too bug the heads anyways..

Indeed it's easier and faster too offtank the adds (4 spawn points [2 mid and 1 each on the outsides])...

Mechanic goes:

Phase 1 (summoner/severin) - DPS job too kill as quick as possible
Phase 2 (defending) - Tanks/Healers(maybe some CC) - tanks will setup at spawn points of the minions an either keep them there or move them back... DPS is too just sit an watch the tanks an use the dragonsouls when needed while tank an clerics doing there jobs...

Phase 3 (Dragon heads) DPS job too kill as quick as possible an so forth

repeat 2-3


Problem is people killing the adds an respawn gets jacked an always one or two minions get through and smack the priest an slow down the process of the phase an everything gets spread with the constant knockbacks etc and it gets hard too get agro.
................................

issues:

People don't understand or doesn't listen

People see a pack of minion, they think they have too go over there an AE everything... Gosh.. So many times, i have pulled a pack from middle too the steps too offtank an a rogue or a wizard will come over and just kill everything an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> gets jacked up when waiting for respawns.

Need 4 decent tanks/players, who know what they need too do.

this is a open raid, any kind of strat. other then what people are use too gets thrown out the widow.
......................................

I have actually played with offtanking, when the black head was bugged and everyone basically left/gave up. Managed too get moondancer too full solo just offtanking.

Buddy of mine said if a DC heals from behind the priest, it supposely makes it go quick also (not sure... not a cleric... but makes a little since they are wounded at the start an gets wounded if gets smack).

livecowboy

Quite honestly I'll make the argument that the clerics is the least thing anyone should be concerned with. Eben if it just takes you a bit longer, its not nearly as important as getting the Dragons done in a timely manner. Anyone that runswith a buddy in a party, but separate instances probably has noticed this by now. Its not about how fast you get the clerics done, because the timer for the dragons is the same no matter if it takes you 1 minute or 2 and a half to defend the clerics. Its a 2 min timer. Whats more important is that you burn the dragons together quickly , use gems properly, and make travel quicker to the next dragon in the 2 minutes. For those who want to argue that if you beat clerics quicker, you can get a 4th chance, I say BS. Because if your group wasnt good enough to get the 5 dragons down in round 3 , youre now gonna have to do them all at 25% in the same time. I've never seen a round 4 win. Possible yes, but highly unlikely. I saw someone spamming that using the wrong gems on dragons actually buffs them yesterday. I dont know if thats true, but if so, thats word worth spreading, because ppl do that all the time.

soonergm

I've been in a raid where we didn't even have a full 3rd round because we took so long on the clerics. DPS on the dragons was great and the only reason I didn't give up hope.

Actually I have not been in a raid where DPS on the heads was the problem unless there were also frame rate issues. I thought we did not have enough DPS to kill the adds around the clerics but knowing what I know now, that wasn't the problem.

nickinight

I've never tried actually not killing the mobs to see if any more spawn or it helps the Clerics bar go up quicker. I've always assumed killing them was the objective and that made the bar quicker since no enemies could potentially hit the Cleric. Either way, time is money in Tiamat and the quicker you do one thing leaves more time for the heads as you could be as lucky as getting a 4th round in if the DPS fails on the dragon heads during the third.

draven165

So then if we don't kill the adds and just off tank them nothing should hurt the clerics. Why are we not doing this strat? So we don't pull the adds that far away. I think this is really worth a try. And Last night I was in an instance where people quit and I and a GWF were still goofing off with a group of mobs by a cleric and low and behold he took agro and pulled them off the cleric. It was just him and I and that clerics bar filled without any additional adds spawning. Of course the other 2 clerics were swarmed but it did work out as I hoped.

lvlkarmalvl

I kept meaning to find an answer to this question, and here it is. Thank you! Now, about spreading the word. What do you think the odds are that anyone can get 15-20 DPS to not attack anything for several minutes? Ugh....

xxxsfalxxx

Drawing the aggro far enough away from the NPC clerics so the dragon breath circles don't cover the NPC clerics is important. Often some draw aggro but not far enough. It was difficult to do with my DC alt no matter what I tried, tho he's only got 10.5K GS and is more a healer than a DPS too. But pretty easy with the main GF at 16.5K Shield slam, run / taunt, run etc and keep them away. That needs to be done to all three NPC clerics though, and I've noticed that often the two I'm not focusing on are lagging behind most of the time.

So it appears most important to get the adds as far away from the NPC clerics as possible, but equally for the three of them to get the dragon heads up as soon as possible.

You have to remember that short of 5 groups of 5 players of extreme amounts of DPS, you're zerging the dragons. That is, zerging, if once the dragon heads are up everyone stops fighting the adds still around the invulnerable clerics, and isn't constantly releasing to campfire/healthkit, and has any idea of how to grab and use gems.

If you count four rounds (summoners+severin, npc clerics * 3) that means about 5 minutes per round. In that 5 minutes or so for rounds 2-4 (or 1-3 if you just count npc clerics/dragon heads) you have to get all three NPC clerics up and an average of 2.5 heads to 15%ish for the first two each, and 5 heads to 0% in the last one. If you figure that the overhead of getting to and from NPC clerics and dragon heads, clearing followers, etc that's about 2 minutes to get the NPC clerics working each time and 2 minutes each time to get 210%, 210% and 75% damage done. (85*2)+(50*1), (85*2)+(50*1), (15*5)

However you slice it, time is short and methods are established. If everyone does that (and you have enough control, healing, tanking, and damage per second) then that's good.

armwald

Something else I noticed is that a HR can easily root 5-7 in the spawn area nicely. Why do some Cleric and CW feel it is necessary to blast them all over the map so we have to chase them ??

Save these encounters for the ones that get through is what I think would be better to do IMHO

lvlkarmalvl

armwald wrote: »

Something else I noticed is that a HR can easily root 5-7 in the spawn area nicely. Why do some Cleric and CW feel it is necessary to blast them all over the map so we have to chase them ??

Save these encounters for the ones that get through is what I think would be better to do IMHO

That's a good point that I hadn't considered. I'd imagine that might do some wonky things to aggro as well. Hopefully more people catch on to this.

xxxsfalxxx

If you can freeze a group of adds in their spawn, that's fine. But they are going to want to go for the npc clerics once they unfreeze right? Unless you're specced mostly for threat as gf or are doing a lot of healing as cleric etc. At whatever expense of damage mitigation and doing damage or healing. How do you stop the adds from attacking the npc clerics after the freeze. And stop the adds far enough away so the npc clerics are not still in the breath damage area when dragons will breathe on players with lots of threat directly. Clump with control and quickly kill the adds with dps and/or knock them off the map. Or knock the adds away far enough so they'll reform on a threat-generating player that's out of breath area. Because when you go in close to hit the adds to get them that might be when the dragon breathes on you.

Either way, the two time critical things are keeping damage away from all three npc clerics and doing dps to the heads. Maybe the zerg isn't the best for the second, and maybe those who don't do much dps should just stay around where the clerics are.

They have made this whole thing way too involved and far too short on time, unless you have massive amounts of everything else, and with a 10K requirement and random parties, well. Like yesterday everything was fine until blue where everyone was dying because not enough had lightning gems apparently. That's not a matter of the npc clerics but more than 5 on the other gems (seemed a lot of green/acid)

fluffy6977

I feel like the biggest issues in Tiamat are teamwork, Resistance ignored (its shocking how many 15k+ players have 12% or less RI. Its not hard to get..) and quitters.

I say teamwork, because maining a GF i have a lot of wonderful powers that buff my GROUP like Into the Fray, for a gain of AP, damage based on my rather high defense, temp hitpoints and run speed. But this only works if you are in my group. And you would not believe the number of people i see fighting on my cleric that decline group invites.

RI is obvious. I dont give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> if you have 10k power and a 18k gs, if you have 12% RI you might as well be a 9k as far as dps goes. End of story.

I usually maintain control on all adds without letting them hit the cleric. Based on a stopwatch i can fill the cleric bar in about 88 seconds while the dps with me kill the adds. It is better to kill the adds in spawn, you just need a control to hold them there (GF, HR, CW, even TR if they use the right powers). It's better because there is a 20 second respawn timer, so if you kill them in spawn quickly (which with ~ 8 players usually 5 or 6 DPS if you are determined to get 3 heads down in one head and you actually can, then you can easily mob these adds) you usually get 15 seconds to use potions or whatever. Usually we kill 4-5 mobs before all 3 clerics are up.

I need to start tanking middle, pretty sure more adds spawn there and in 2 locations, so 2 control would be best but i think i could do it on my own fairly well.

So breakdown on time

Usually about 1:20 seconds to kill summoners.another 30 to kill severin. 15 at least for the long travel from black and white to severin. I think we could actually tighten thisnup significantly by breaking into 2 groups at the top, killin black and white and moving inwards to Rath, then Severin. I think we could probably get this phase to 90 seconds easily just by not wasting time running from blue to white or green to black and then back to severin.

First wave: 2:05
Clerics ~ 2 minutes. Could easily be tightened to 90 seconds or so if people start grouping for buffs and controlling mobs well. ( kiting is not, contrary to popular belief, good control tactics for most things, including this).
Head wave 1 2:00 minutes. Roughly 40 seconds of this phase is wasted by people running from one head to the other. Would be interesting to see 5 teams who fought only the same dragon each round, slower dps but only need to get them down by 1/3rd per run and no wasted time running to the next head. My gut says this would be far more efficient and reliable, as dps could shift where needed most before head phase again. But this would require coordination that does not exist among this player base.

so figuring 3 waves of each, at 2 minutes each, thats 12 minutes there. Plus 2 for summoners. Plus2 for random <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that happens. Makes 16 minutes total run. Which means even with less than optimal clerics you can get a 4th run in easily, if everyone stays. Hell with optimal speeds on cleric you could easily get a 4th with time to spare. But this won't happen, because people quit too fast unless you get 3 heads down to 20 on first run. There is literally no reason a properly kitted (again RESISTANCE IGNORED IS TOO OFTEN IGNORED) coordinated group of 10ks could not beat this run. The problem really is we as players need an effective way to reach out to each other and teach each other to kit our correctly, to work together, to have multi class party buffs that synergize. This wont happen unless we make it happen.

soonergm

I thought splitting up would be better as well but I have changed my mind. I think the problem is partially that the overall DPS will not be good enough because we lose all the bonuses that stack. Including things like lantern of relation which is huge. I have been in a few raids where on the final round part of the group goes to finish off white and the other part heads to black and the DPS is just not there but was great during the rest of the raid. Another possible reason, what is the HP regeneration of the heads? Splitting in to 2 or even 5 groups would force you to deal with regeneration of each head, if there is any.

These strategies take more organization as well. I'd imagine you want to organize better groups... DPS tanks and healers etc in each group and there is no time. Especially right now since nearly everyone waits until less than 1 minute to enter. Which btw is useless now because all the low gear score players you want to avoid are entering at the same time.

The zerg is a proven strategy made popular on the PC. I'm all for experimenting because I think it would be fun but you need folks of like mind to get together and I don't think that's going to happen. Also on a personal note, I lose all the time at Tiamat and at this point I just want to win at least half the time. For now I don't want to experiment. I wish I could find a way to get with a group that aren't a bunch of whine bag cry babies. Now people are quitting if you pop a green on the red dragon... lol. People think if you use the wrong color it's all over and then go back to campfire and spam about noobs.

theungodly

armwald wrote: »

Something else I noticed is that a HR can easily root 5-7 in the spawn area nicely. Why do some Cleric and CW feel it is necessary to blast them all over the map so we have to chase them ??

Save these encounters for the ones that get through is what I think would be better to do IMHO

I wrote about exactly this in another thread.
My experience is that 1. the bar goes up quicker if you just keep the adds away 1. if you keep the adds alive, new will not spawn.

As a HR i always try to root the adds at spawn and if i'm lucky i can keep them there for a very long time or get aggro so i can move them further away. But 9 times out of 10 the DCs thinks it's a good idea to come rushing, using knock-back and scatter everything around without any reason, which means: no more roots and adds rushing towards cleric/DC instead from different directions. And when i type in chat "Please do not push-back when rooted/frozen" no one ever cares.

stpensive

theungodly wrote: »

armwald wrote: »

Please do not push-back when rooted/frozen" no one ever cares.

I care The only time I blast em is when they get close \ rush a Cleric. Other than that, I am debuffing and laying down Hallowed Ground (ur welcome )

armwald

theungodly wrote: »

armwald wrote: »

Something else I noticed is that a HR can easily root 5-7 in the spawn area nicely. Why do some Cleric and CW feel it is necessary to blast them all over the map so we have to chase them ??

Save these encounters for the ones that get through is what I think would be better to do IMHO

I wrote about exactly this in another thread.
My experience is that 1. the bar goes up quicker if you just keep the adds away 1. if you keep the adds alive, new will not spawn.

As a HR i always try to root the adds at spawn and if i'm lucky i can keep them there for a very long time or get aggro so i can move them further away. But 9 times out of 10 the DCs thinks it's a good idea to come rushing, using knock-back and scatter everything around without any reason, which means: no more roots and adds rushing towards cleric/DC instead from different directions. And when i type in chat "Please do not push-back when rooted/frozen" no one ever cares.

I also am a HR 18k nothing Legendary Pathfinder Running Aspect of the Pack with Control Buffs

In a loss I went to the Left Cleric by myself pulled the 6-7 off the Cleric and ran and rooted then for long enough for the Cleric to complete the Prayers. No health pots no SF and most of all no rotation errors so it can be done. I only killed 4-5 but the new ones spawned with aggro on me.

It has gotten to the point that when it happens 2-3 times I leave that Cleric and go find one of the others that have DC CW that know what they are doing. ( I had a Black Dragon Gem and I was guarding the White Cleric yesterday )

This stage is about control this is what a HR does best sets them up for the big hitter

Save the big guns for the Dragons

mahburg

The worst problem for me is guys kiting around the Heads and pushing players off the cliffs several times when I get right under the head to hit the target in its mouth some idiot will push power the mobs and off I go into the lava.

Frankly whenever that happens to me now, I just walk out when I respawn, as given when I come back there are maybe five to 6 others at least, who were also pushed off further engagement is pointless imho!

patsfire

Wait, no powers in Tiamat actually push players though. Unless I am just lucky, I have never been touched by another player.

Edit: On my DC I use the push power and it does not push anything but the adds. So I have no idea what you are referring too lol

soonergm

It depends. I'm not sure how tanks powers works but I've seen this happen in dungeons to them. Also as a ranger I have a melee encounter, Fox Shift, which will zip me to multiple enemies and attack them. If I use this as someone pushes I will the adds right off the cliff.

armwald

soonergm wrote: »

It depends. I'm not sure how tanks powers works but I've seen this happen in dungeons to them. Also as a ranger I have a melee encounter, Fox Shift, which will zip me to multiple enemies and attack them. If I use this as someone pushes I will the adds right off the cliff.

DC and CW have kill me more times than Dragons in Tiamat ...lol

fluffy6977

You cannot directly affect other players with knock backs.

You can indirectly force players to follow adds off cliffs with knock backs. Usually while using a lunging strike or certain "auto target" powers. Does it suck? Yes. Is it a reason to quit? No.

mahburg

Happened again twice last night so it definitely does happen
And yes it is a reason to quit when it happens twice in a row in a run, something is going on with push powers at the heads,
It happens too often to be coincidence.

If a bunch of you are kited off the into the lava then there is no point returning for more of the same imho!

mahburg

fluffy6977 wrote: »

You cannot directly affect other players with knock backs.

You can indirectly force players to follow adds off cliffs with knock backs. Usually while using a lunging strike or certain "auto target" powers. Does it suck? Yes. Is it a reason to quit? No.

Okay try this then, those of us who are going for the head usually have the ads behind us, if someone hits those ads with a knock back what does anyone think is logically going to occur?

Whether direct or indirect the end result is the same, anyone nailing the dragon is going over and god help any GWF using come and get it to drop in the same spot he is standing in after a lantern goes on the head to get extra damage as for a split second he is in the air if someone uses knock back are we certain he wont be sent flying off the cliff?

patsfire

I am honestly so confused though. The only time that any powers from a player DIRECTLY affect that player is in PvP. I know that sometimes on my TR when I use Duelists Furry and I get to the point where I go crazy and follow the ads where ever they go, then if they get pushed I follow. BUT, that is not the DC pushing ME.

armwald

fluffy6977 wrote: »

You cannot directly affect other players with knock backs.

You can indirectly force players to follow adds off cliffs with knock backs. Usually while using a lunging strike or certain "auto target" powers. Does it suck? Yes. Is it a reason to quit? No.

I do not quit I find a group that does not blast a tightly grouped 5-6 attackers.

I could remove Fox and everyone does not get that free dodge from damage every 5-6 seconds in my mind that would be quitting.

patsfire

Also, why would those who have some sort of push ability NOT use it on the dragon heads when the Ads come up? It seems like pushing them off the cliff and protecting everyone from being hit by them is a smart idea.

Edit: That's what I do when I run my cleric. Focus on the head, then when I see ads come up I blast them off.

fluffy6977

armwald wrote: »

fluffy6977 wrote: »

You cannot directly affect other players with knock backs.

You can indirectly force players to follow adds off cliffs with knock backs. Usually while using a lunging strike or certain "auto target" powers. Does it suck? Yes. Is it a reason to quit? No.

I do not quit I find a group that does not blast a tightly grouped 5-6 attackers.

I could remove Fox and everyone does not get that free dodge from damage every 5-6 seconds in my mind that would be quitting.

Could be wrong on this, but 99% that Fox's Cunning only works for yourself and 1 nearby ally, as said in the description. Not as helpful for Tiamat as it sounds.

patsfire

60% of the time, it works every time

mahburg

patsfire wrote: »

Also, why would those who have some sort of push ability NOT use it on the dragon heads when the Ads come up? It seems like pushing them off the cliff and protecting everyone from being hit by them is a smart idea.

Edit: That's what I do when I run my cleric. Focus on the head, then when I see ads come up I blast them off.

And there is the issue right there, what is the benefit if you use that and blast off anyone under the head trying to get crits and bring it down fast?

Certainly feel free to carry on just don't complain when after the second time players do a HALO into the lava they walk out the door.

patsfire

PUSH attacks do not affect players in PvE!