The Truth about Astral Seal, Astral Shield, and Hallowed Ground on Framerates in Rise of Tiamat.

jasjoh · July 2015

Does anyone know it? I run a cleric and I've done multiple Tiamat runs where I have used all three w/o any lag issues. Is there any confirmed report / tests on the subject?

[UPDATE 07/22] Recommendation
Thank you to all of your who replied with your insights. I'm going to recommend the following to folks reading this thread:

1. REFRAIN FROM USING ASTRAL SEAL when attacked the dragon heads in Rise of Tiamat. The framerate issues associated with its use are circumstantial, but the value of using Astral Seal does not outweigh the potential risk it poses. As a 14.5k cleric, I've still been able to achieve top-billing w/o it, so score-padding isn't really a sufficient reason either.

2. Help educate the populace and point them to these forums for guidance / reasoning. In addition to discouraging Astral Seal usage, let's also work to correct any misconceptions about Astral Shield and Hallowed Ground. The latter have no effect on frame-rates.

zephyriah · July 2015

Not that I have seen.

All I have seen is speculation and parroting of the PC issues with cleric skills from players reading, but not understanding, old PC threads about lag in Tiamat. Some cleric skills, most noticably Astral Seal, caused major lag when used in conjunction with a boon called Burning Guidance. It was the interaction between skills and Burning Guidance that caused the issue.

Burning Guidance does not exist on Xbox at this point in time.

Hallowed ground was/is causing some major issues in PvP and I don't know if it has been fixed.

jasjoh · July 2015

Should have read the known issue thread first.

"Astral Shield and Seal increase lag for Tiamat"

Wish they provided a bit more details. As I said before, I've done runs where I've spammed both and there hasn't been any lag. Perhaps its an issue with two-or-more clerics doing it at the same time?

PS. For those of you who like to spam PSAs in Zone chat, feel free to point folks at the Known Issues sticky thread here on the official forums, indicating it is indeed a known bug. I had been ignoring folks because no one had provided any references.

zephyriah · July 2015

jasjoh wrote: »

Should have read the known issue thread first.

"Astral Shield and Seal increase lag for Tiamat"

Wish they provided a bit more details. As I said before, I've done runs where I've spammed both and there hasn't been any lag. Perhaps its an issue with two-or-more clerics doing it at the same time?

Well, what do you know. I haven't experienced it either.

strumslinger · July 2015

It's there because enough people have stated it was an issue. We are looking into it though.

armadeonx · July 2015

It would be nice to get an official confirmation on this to inform players...

jasjoh · July 2015

Thank you for the clarification strum, but the way I read your comment, now I'm not so sure it's actually Astral Seal or Astral Shield causing lag. It sounds like you added it to the 'known issues' thread simply because enough people complained about lag and blamed Astral Shield / Astral Seal. Have you received any hard evidence linking the two or is it possible people are simply upset about lag, looking for a cause and regurgitating what a small, misinformed minority spam in chat?

Would be good to note the difference between opinion and fact based 'known issues' and indicate which of the 'fact based' known issue have been confirmed by your team.

bmean · July 2015

It's sad either way. As a DC myself, I've stopped using both, and both are a very big asset that people who never play as a DC never realize. Both casted at the same time makes the team in it nearly invulnerable, resulting in less deaths, which gives me more time to focus on some very helpful debuffs on those pesky heads, which in the end means they go down about 40%(righteous build) quicker!

agent00spliff · July 2015

It's from Seal not shield. It would also be great if people would learn the difference between lag and framerate drops

drexci · July 2015

It's inconsistent.

stpensive · July 2015

Im a DC as well and, IMHO, Astral Seal is really not useful in Tiamat. Most death is from Dragon breath, and usually a one shot. The only place ASeal would be useful is when defending the Clerics and thats not what people are crying about. And boy are they crying. Only wish I could craft them a rank 9 xanax enchantment and wrap it in some Astral Kleenex for them.

If you are a low GS and really want to help, put on your High Prophet set for the defense debuff. Use Lance for your at will, Divine Glow and Sun Burst and you are good.

People lumping in Astral Shield is just because they see 'Astral' in the name and blame that too. Astral Shield has no negative effects.

agent00spliff · July 2015

stpensive wrote: »

If you are a low GS and really want to help, put on your High Prophet set for the defense debuff. Use Lance, for your at will, Divine Glow and Sun Burst and you are good.

You put out shred stacks faster with Sacred Flame, Lance's clunky animation makes it useless.

b0redgamer · July 2015

strumslinger wrote: »

It's there because enough people have stated it was an issue. We are looking into it though.

I personally have been on numerous runs and I have yet to experience lag from any of the 3. That does not mean it is not there, just that I have yet to encounter it as being an issue. That being said, I have noticed the "lag" that was produced from me with my SW using TT has been drastically reduced. I still see a lot of people complaining about it though.

soonergm · July 2015

Could this also be causing the performance issues when battling the heralds?

stercesderised · July 2015

I have a 17.2 DC and can tell you definitively that astral seal causes lag. I played around with it early on, and you can see the lag spike hit for 1-5 secs after casting (theres a pause, then all of the green numbers pop). It will not necessarily cause killer lag everytime; it seems to get worse the more damage the 25 are able to put out. You can actually see everything bog down if you spam astral seal on one of the heads (but plz don't....it has already been tested and isn't cool to cause a fail for the other 24 players).

Astral SHIELD and hollowed ground are fine to use. People saying these cause lag are incorrect. Also, astral SEAL is fine to use on anything BUT Tiamat dragon heads (again, tested). However, astral SEAL is pointless on the defend the cleric rounds.

Just switch up to BotS in place of AS.

I am guessing Valor will cause issues as well given the number of reactive calculations going on

ichimaruginx · July 2015

Not sure about xbox but on PC Astral SHIELD has never have any issues related to lag. That i can confirm. Hope it helps

vdeekv · July 2015

stercesderised wrote: »

I have a 17.2 DC and can tell you definitively that astral seal causes lag. I played around with it early on, and you can see the lag spike hit for 1-5 secs after casting (theres a pause, then all of the green numbers pop). It will not necessarily cause killer lag everytime; it seems to get worse the more damage the 25 are able to put out. You can actually see everything bog down if you spam astral seal on one of the heads (but plz don't....it has already been tested and isn't cool to cause a fail for the other 24 players).

Astral SHIELD and hollowed ground are fine to use. People saying these cause lag are incorrect. Also, astral SEAL is fine to use on anything BUT Tiamat dragon heads (again, tested). However, astral SEAL is pointless on the defend the cleric rounds.

Just switch up to BotS in place of AS.

I am guessing Valor will cause issues as well given the number of reactive calculations going on

^^^ Read this and accept it, actual evidence from testing... Not 'I heard that' or 'My mom said'.

As also mentioned astral seal is worthless on the heads anyway. The dragon head hits are singular and hard, astral seal is a maintenance heal at best. Even with DC using astral seal artifact weapon it's not going to 'heal you through' one of those hits.

What's the point in placing as MVP cleric on the scoreboard (as if that makes any difference to your reward) if you keep causing groups to fail?

Whether you agree it causes lag or not, there is little or no group benefit from astral seal on heads, so how about just suck it up and give everyone a break?

draven165 · July 2015

I have tested this and tested this. In fact me a few friends tried as hard as we could to cause lag from spamming AS and guess what... Nothing. Not a single lag spike or frame rate drop. So there is no correlation between AS and lag. For every person that says there is, there are 2 people that say otherwise.

In the tests where it supposedly caused lag, it could have coincidentally been another spell or other contributing factor. But to claim that "yes it is the cause because I tested it" is very misleading to a lot of people. If YOUR tests proved it was the cause then every other cleric would also be experiencing the same results. That is if it was truly the cause. So for any other person to not experience any issues from it automatically debunks the thought that it is the cause. Its an all or nothing kind of thing. Of course if your claims that "I have a 17.2 DC and can tell you definitively that astral seal causes lag". Definitively? This is the part that bothers me. So you're claim is that it is the sole purpose and this cannot be argued at all. That is what that term means. But yet, others are not netting the same results from their tests. That in itself is an argument against this claim.

Until the "lag" happens from every DC that casts AS and solely from casting AS, no one can "definitively" claim that this is the cause. The only true way to determine is by means that us players cannot do. Someone on the developer side needs to go into a controlled environment and test it while monitoring the data. Only then can we have a "definitive" answer.

vdeekv · July 2015

draven165 wrote: »

I have tested this and tested this. In fact me a few friends tried as hard as we could to cause lag from spamming AS and guess what... Nothing. Not a single lag spike or frame rate drop. So there is no correlation between AS and lag. For every person that says there is, there are 2 people that say otherwise.

In the tests where it supposedly caused lag, it could have coincidentally been another spell or other contributing factor. But to claim that "yes it is the cause because I tested it" is very misleading to a lot of people. If YOUR tests proved it was the cause then every other cleric would also be experiencing the same results. That is if it was truly the cause. So for any other person to not experience any issues from it automatically debunks the thought that it is the cause. Its an all or nothing kind of thing. Of course if your claims that "I have a 17.2 DC and can tell you definitively that astral seal causes lag". Definitively? This is the part that bothers me. So you're claim is that it is the sole purpose and this cannot be argued at all. That is what that term means. But yet, others are not netting the same results from their tests. That in itself is an argument against this claim.

Until the "lag" happens from every DC that casts AS and solely from casting AS, no one can "definitively" claim that this is the cause. The only true way to determine is by means that us players cannot do. Someone on the developer side needs to go into a controlled environment and test it while monitoring the data. Only then can we have a "definitive" answer.

But other than to inflate your own score, what argument is there for using astral seal on the heads?

So why not just lay off it and see if it does improve other peoples game experience?

Anyone using astral seal as their main at will should really do some reading and understand their class better before making that choice. I suggest Kaelac's guide HERE

Specifically, read the part about astral seal: 'Despite multiple icons proccing, only one Astral Seal can be active on the target at a time, only the first one is active and it's duration is not refreshed (info from Scozzers)'

Other at wills also generate divinity faster.

I'm done with tiamat till this gets sorted out. Just had another fail, super high dps to start then damage on heads 'hits a wall', players rubber banding, only tick damage registering and (surprise surprise) six astral seal procs on the head health bar.

Again, whether you agree that seal causes lag or not, what harm can it do to stop using it when so many players are asking you not to?

draven165 · July 2015

So many responses to your post. I will try and respond to each.

vdeekv wrote: »

But other than to inflate your own score, what argument is there for using astral seal on the heads?
Personally I could care less about the "score" as this is a pointless measurement. Argument for use? Dead players do not produce any DPS. If I see another AS on the head I wouldn't spam it as well because I do understand the class...

So why not just lay off it and see if it does improve other peoples game experience?
Lay off something that isn't causing game play issues? Did you read that this does not cause lag? So asking a player to lay off a specific spell that their class has is basically you telling someone else how to play the game. Especially when this specific spell does not cause the lag you and so many others are convinced it does.

Anyone using astral seal as their main at will should really do some reading and understand their class better before making that choice. I suggest Kaelac's guide HERE

I wont go into this much. Its really not up to you or anyone else to determine if someone knows how to play their class. A guide is just that, a guide. I have seen this and a few other "guides" referenced and while yes they are informative and good reads, they are nothing more than that. What works for one person may not work for others. You should really open your mind a little and allow for other thought processes. Not everyone wants to be a cookie cutter class from someone elses guide. This does not mean they lack knowledge of their class. It means they have enough sense to find what works for them. There was a time when people didn't have guides that told them how to play and they actually played and learned on their own. Funny there was far less crying and complaining back then but that could also have to do with that generation of players. Kids these days.

Specifically, read the part about astral seal: 'Despite multiple icons proccing, only one Astral Seal can be active on the target at a time, only the first one is active and it's duration is not refreshed (info from Scozzers)'

Already commented on it. Yes I understand the mechanics. The fact you assume I do not says more about you and your post than me and mine.

Other at wills also generate divinity faster.

I am aware of this as well

I'm done with tiamat till this gets sorted out. Just had another fail, super high dps to start then damage on heads 'hits a wall', players rubber banding, only tick damage registering and (surprise surprise) six astral seal procs on the head health bar.

I have not experienced any lag in Tiamat. I am curious as to how yo ucan see six astral seal procs on one head when you just claimed above that only one can be active at a time? Contradicting but it sometimes when we write posts in anger we tend to exaggerate a bit.

Again, whether you agree that seal causes lag or not, what harm can it do to stop using it when so many players are asking you not to?

Just to let you know as I have posted on multiple threads regarding this topic, I have stopped using it personally. I did use it to test it out a bit and found it to not cause any issues. However I run with Chains, Divine Glow, and Sunburst for Cleric Phase and Lance as at will for building up Divine Power. Then the same on boss but I tend to use Empowered or Divine Power Sunburst for healing the DPS'ers and Divine on head. I do not nor would not ever purposely cause grief to other players. Despite the tests coming back as not being the cause I do try and get along with most people and appease them. I have actually went through runs where I never seen a single AS on a dragon head yet people were still complaining that a cleric was using it and causing lag. Again I wasn't experiencing any lag at all. It just cracks me up and the sheep mentality most people suffer from. Someone somewhere said this was an issue and now like a wildfire everyone jumps on the bandwagon without a single solitary shred of proof.

But such is life these days.

stpensive · July 2015

vdeekv wrote: »

But other than to inflate your own score, what argument is there for using astral seal on the heads?

I have to agree with this; as I said earlier, ASeal just is not going to heal someone blasted with breath. For DCs, it's a wasted opportunity to apply a debuff or add some DPS to the fray.

Also, the term 'lag' needs to be replaced for what is actually happening; a frame rate dip (or less likely, a number crunching issue). Lag indicates it's bandwidth related; it's not.

stercesderised wrote:

Just switch up to BotS in place of AS.

Were we a DO DC, that would be good advice

stercesderised · July 2015

^^^ lolin.

/scratches head.

didnt realize there was another option >:)

vdeekv · July 2015

draven165 wrote: »

So many responses to your post. I will try and respond to each.
***Edited to avoid wall of text ***

@draven165 : Apreciate your reply. Whilst I intended some of my reply as direct response to your post (obviously as I quoted you

) Other points were aimed at the cleric community at large. Specifically the info regarding cleric guides etc. As I'm aware of many of your posts across the forum, where you do engage in informed discussion and I would expect you to have a good handle on your class mechanics. My apologies for my ambiguity and causing any feeling that my post was in some way attacking or belittling you.

I also appreciate that you have stated that you're running a different set up for tiamat and not using astral seal on the heads. Fundamentally that's all I'm asking clerics to do until this is resolved, as IMO it's not a big deal and would at the very least help to rule it out.

Just as a point of clarification for all, based on the info provided by Kaelac and the others he referenced, astral seal will show multiple procs on the health bar of an enemy (in much the same way as many other proc effects will) but only one will be active and recasts will not refresh the effect until it has expired. What isn't clear is whether or not that's across all clerics or if multiple clerics stack, but that's approaching 'off topic' and would probably be best discussed separately.

stpensive · July 2015

stercesderised wrote: »

^^^ lolin.

/scratches head.

didnt realize there was another option >:)

Anointed Champion; the more healy of the two IMHO.

zephyriah · July 2015

I believe that there may be an explanation, probably several, for some of testers and seeing no problem and others seeing a problem.

Astral Seal's biggest benefit, even in Tiamat, is not its healing but its ability to proc other things (Foresight, Cleanse, etc). Like the old problem on PC of AS messing up Tiamat when it proc'ed Burning Guidance. Perhaps, the problem now may be a different feat, boon or skill that AS is proc'ing. If the testers do not have the same selections of feats, different results will be seen.

draven165 · July 2015

No worries at all @Vdeekv I do try and respond to any and every one and do try to have thoughtful conversations, although sometimes text doesn't always show intent. And yes originally I read your first post as me directly and that was my bad for that. Again sometimes when we read things its hard to get a handle on the intent.

The proc thing I would love to have a more in depth discussion on as I honestly have not seen this, and I do watch for it. This could change a lot, for me personally, as I do strive to observe my surroundings and compliment other DC's as opposed to compete with them. This could go a long way in helping me determine what is being used. I must look more into it and figure out why I haven't been seeing the proc. Could this be an issue with the now truncated effects?

As for changing out the powers. I do feel that if everyone is so passionate about it being an issue, it really doesn't affect me personally on this fight so I happily change them out. After all, that spell is not for me anyways as its for the DPS'ers to offset the lower Life Steal stats. At least that's how I look at it for this fight. At the end of the day most of us have the same goal in mind and that is to play a game and escape reality for a little bit at the end of a work day. So we might as well try and make it as pleasant of a place as possible

xxxsfalxxx · July 2015

When I get around to bringing in my 10.5K cleric alt into the tiamat battle, I'll just play like I want to and see if it makes any difference. For now, it's just people blathering out what they've read, what they've been told, or what they think is happening. But hey if you don't tank or cleric, maybe you should worry about whatever it is your class does, and do your part in the raid.

lvlkarmalvl · July 2015

zephyriah wrote: »

Hallowed ground was/is causing some major issues in PvP and I don't know if it has been fixed.

Haven't seen a single issue in PVP stemming from Hallowed Ground use since the Tiamat update. Not from where I was sitting anyway.

stercesderised wrote: »

Just switch up to BotS in place of AS.

I am guessing Valor will cause issues as well given the number of reactive calculations going on

Two points - first, and off topic sorry, but do the BotS DOTs apply fast enough to proc the full defense shred bonus from the HP set? If so, everyone should be using that (I do, just as a passive while using Sacred 95% of the time).

Second, regarding Knight's Valor and any other ability that could be causing issues - why are we poor cleric catching so much flak? KV seems to operate same as AS, and I have noticed framerate issues when it's being used. What about Warlocks if they are hitting all 25 people with lifesteal boosts - how is that any different than AS?

It bothers me because after seeing complaints in chat about AS, then reading some online, I decided to drop it just in case. Honestly, I found that there really are better options just like people are saying in this thread. But then I start getting tells and PMs from people cussing me out, telling me to "ltp", or even just "letting me know" to stop using AS. I imagine a lot of DC's are getting the same treatment.

That all said, truly follow the advice in this thread if you are a DC. A couple of healers are fine, but I've been finding really good use out of buffing lately as an alternative. Really, only one healer is needed per cleric and maybe 2 per dragon head if that. Other DCs should be buffing. Divine Glow and Forgemasters - DG during divinity phase, Forge immediately after. Coupled with Hallowed Ground, that's a lot of bonus DPS and it really helps those poorly built/geared DPSers contribute.

EDIT - I also meant to mention, if you really are a scoreboard person a well timed Bastion or divinity/empowered Sunburst can do huge numbers for your score. Sunburst and Glow are really the only healing I run anymore, and one or two well timed casts during a breath weapon pretty much shoots me up the scoreboard. The only people that beat me on score anymore are other DCs or healing SWs and I literally could not be trying less for score - my whole build is to help jack other people's scores. So just saying, stop using AS just in case it could mean issues for those one or two people in your instance who could have made the difference.

mahburg · July 2015

draven165 wrote: »

So many responses to your post. I will try and respond to each.

vdeekv wrote: »

But other than to inflate your own score, what argument is there for using astral seal on the heads?
Personally I could care less about the "score" as this is a pointless measurement. Argument for use? Dead players do not produce any DPS. If I see another AS on the head I wouldn't spam it as well because I do understand the class...

So why not just lay off it and see if it does improve other peoples game experience?
Lay off something that isn't causing game play issues? Did you read that this does not cause lag? So asking a player to lay off a specific spell that their class has is basically you telling someone else how to play the game. Especially when this specific spell does not cause the lag you and so many others are convinced it does.

Anyone using astral seal as their main at will should really do some reading and understand their class better before making that choice. I suggest Kaelac's guide HERE

I wont go into this much. Its really not up to you or anyone else to determine if someone knows how to play their class. A guide is just that, a guide. I have seen this and a few other "guides" referenced and while yes they are informative and good reads, they are nothing more than that. What works for one person may not work for others. You should really open your mind a little and allow for other thought processes. Not everyone wants to be a cookie cutter class from someone elses guide. This does not mean they lack knowledge of their class. It means they have enough sense to find what works for them. There was a time when people didn't have guides that told them how to play and they actually played and learned on their own. Funny there was far less crying and complaining back then but that could also have to do with that generation of players. Kids these days.

Specifically, read the part about astral seal: 'Despite multiple icons proccing, only one Astral Seal can be active on the target at a time, only the first one is active and it's duration is not refreshed (info from Scozzers)'

Already commented on it. Yes I understand the mechanics. The fact you assume I do not says more about you and your post than me and mine.

Other at wills also generate divinity faster.

I am aware of this as well

I'm done with tiamat till this gets sorted out. Just had another fail, super high dps to start then damage on heads 'hits a wall', players rubber banding, only tick damage registering and (surprise surprise) six astral seal procs on the head health bar.

I have not experienced any lag in Tiamat. I am curious as to how yo ucan see six astral seal procs on one head when you just claimed above that only one can be active at a time? Contradicting but it sometimes when we write posts in anger we tend to exaggerate a bit.

Again, whether you agree that seal causes lag or not, what harm can it do to stop using it when so many players are asking you not to?

Just to let you know as I have posted on multiple threads regarding this topic, I have stopped using it personally. I did use it to test it out a bit and found it to not cause any issues. However I run with Chains, Divine Glow, and Sunburst for Cleric Phase and Lance as at will for building up Divine Power. Then the same on boss but I tend to use Empowered or Divine Power Sunburst for healing the DPS'ers and Divine on head. I do not nor would not ever purposely cause grief to other players. Despite the tests coming back as not being the cause I do try and get along with most people and appease them. I have actually went through runs where I never seen a single AS on a dragon head yet people were still complaining that a cleric was using it and causing lag. Again I wasn't experiencing any lag at all. It just cracks me up and the sheep mentality most people suffer from. Someone somewhere said this was an issue and now like a wildfire everyone jumps on the bandwagon without a single solitary shred of proof.

But such is life these days.

Let me say first I only run with a GWF so cant say whether the cry baby's are right or not, however from the opinions and information I have read it doesnt seem any more than the whiny kids on COD screaming Modder every time a good player hands them their <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.

My only complaint (not sure which power it is) is getting randomly shoved off the cliff by what appears to be some kind of push back power (happened a few times and it isnt dragons breath as it pushes me off towards the dragons head and then down and under).

frustrating as hell when you are dumping crits and the healthbar is full as souls are in play and then wham you are dead through no fault of your own

Last nights failure we were right on the money 2heads down on first wave plus a big chunk out of 3 second cleric run starts and half the players are nowhere to be seen, seriously why even come in (plenty of time on the clock btw).

I am tending to go in less and less now which does beg the question is that what some of these guys want>

Oh I am just shy of 14K now and the spam now is anyone under 14K stay the hell out lol.

drexci · July 2015

Is it ok to use Astrial Seal and Shield? I noitced a couple of clerics in every run I do using it.

when I ran with my CW in Tiamat and somebody used Seal or Shield My dps point flow just stops coming up when shield was put down the same with astrial, but not everytime.

I can't tell if Tiamat is poorly optimised, if shield and seal are dropping the frame rate or it's lack of dps.

sponsahme · July 2015

i was running tiamat and i saw this guy spamming astral seal right behind me and everyone was lagging so much we couldn't dps the dragon.. then when i got away from him everything was fine. it was definitely astral seal.

The Truth about Astral Seal, Astral Shield, and Hallowed Ground on Framerates in Rise of Tiamat.

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