What is happening with my low score? (Tiamat)

theungodly

So i run a HR Trapper (GS 15k) and i almost always end up in first or second place in dungeons and skirmishes, but when i fight Tiamat i've gotten some unbelievable bad scores like 576 and today 76 points(!) and probably finishing dead last.
Ofcourse i'm constantly occupied fighting and using potions.

So what is happening here? Is something broken? I seem to do alot of damage, but my points and placement on the scoreboard is just ridiculous.

nickinight

I'm not entirely sure how the scoring works. I've managed to come 7th, 9th, and something not even existent on the leader board, but I'm assuming it's going by how much you defend your cleric (Whether they get interrupted by a mob hitting them and taking the bar down) and DPS dealt to each of the dragon heads.

Unknown

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rylnari

I a raid with 25-30 people DC are going to shine (finally, if you ask me). DPS plaers output doesn't really change much from a normal encounter... if anything is going to go down because there are few situations where you can do AOE damage and most of your damage will go to single targets (dragons/sorcerers).

DC, on the other hand have a TON more targets to heal, buff, protect, etc, AND contribute to damage with Sun Burst (must have for the cleric phase) and Prophecy of Doom (for the dragon/sorcerer) phase.

Daesyn

Don't even worry about it, rankings do nothing for loot.

spyd3r85

The weight placed on dmg to come up with that score seems to be minimal. That is why you have all they low GS and bad build players that always look like HAMSTER in T2s claiming awesomeness in tiamat because a scoreboard that they don't even know what it scores says they did great. My bet is that it is giving points (and more of them) for healing and damage taken (probably over-healing included).

I am not necessarily one of those players that thinks no one below 15k gs should be in there so don't misunderstand. I am just against the delusion that a person suddenly gets better and blows up the dmg meter in tiamat while being continually abysmal in dungeons where you can actually see and differentiate between healing / dmg done / dmg taken, etc...

TRLD: I hate that chart....I have scored 4-5th on it many times too but it is non-sense.

theungodly

rylnari wrote: »

I a raid with 25-30 people DC are going to shine (finally, if you ask me). DPS plaers output doesn't really change much from a normal encounter... if anything is going to go down because there are few situations where you can do AOE damage and most of your damage will go to single targets (dragons/sorcerers).

DC, on the other hand have a TON more targets to heal, buff, protect, etc, AND contribute to damage with Sun Burst (must have for the cleric phase) and Prophecy of Doom (for the dragon/sorcerer) phase.

Yeah, i'm kinda reflecting over this to. Why i suddenly place so badly on the scoreboard. As a HR Trapper i do alot of damage when there's alot of targets (like in dungeons/skirmishes), but with Tiamat there's mostly big single targets and that's where HR's are weak. I don't care about placement really, but if i'm used to place first or second, i just react when i get a score that's five or six times worse than the person on first place. And especially when i get scores like 500 and 70. That score must be equivalent to sneezing on a dragon one. So that's why i'm questioning if my character is broken somehow.

If there's any other HR Trappers out there; What score do you get in Tiamat usually?
I have 16,5 GS for the moment and i'm just able to reach 60000-70000 points (when the score seems "normal", that is.)

lvlkarmalvl

I run a DC which gets ridiculous scores even when I'm running a buff build over a heal build, so there's likely some weird calculations. I don't once imagine that I carried the instance, though there have been a few times when I might have saved one (looking at you, people who don't use the souls on green dragon, thank you very much rapid AOE heals with Cleanse)

But with my GWF, 15.5k, I'm in the exact same boat as you. Used to topping Paingiver, or at least placing respectably compared to my and others' GS. In Tiamat, best I've managed is just over 60k, usually more around 40k. I was stunned, immediately started going over my build again, wondering how to change, what to do. Then I realized it was a moot point. I'd rather win then place highly. I started running some different powers that could buff they poorly built/geared players and help them out. Find the powers you have that buff others, especially by reducing enemy DR, start equipping a couple. It's really been helping my win-loss ratio.

mikeyflies

The powers that reduce "defense" actually boost damage instead in PVE so it helps ALL players not just those with low armor penetration. In fact these help players with adequate armor penetration more than those w/o ;P

I fully agree that more people should be using buff/debuff abilities as these can multiply and be huge boosts in damage.

see : Buffs debuffs and damage

lvlkarmalvl

mikeyflies wrote: »

The powers that reduce "defense" actually boost damage instead in PVE so it helps ALL players not just those with low armor penetration. In fact these help players with adequate armor penetration more than those w/o ;P

I fully agree that more people should be using buff/debuff abilities as these can multiply and be huge boosts in damage.

see : Buffs debuffs and damage

I see. Regardless, if that is the way it indeed works then it is helpful no matter what. I agree that you can always tell when several buffs have been spread across a group of players because you just see that health melt.

xxxsfalxxx

Can't make hide nor hair of it. My main 16.5K GF ranges from tiny points to hundreds of thousands. Where I thought I was doing great and sometimes high sometimes low, which goes for when I think I'm doing terribly. :shrug: Which the top scores have a huge variation from raid to raid, making it even more difficult to figure out. My alt 10.8K DC has only done one but I think he was 7th, which is higher than the GF usually has. I am pretty sure the higher up top 5 you are the better of a refining stone you get on the usual fail?

For that matter, what's your win rate in a "fully random" (no luck at getting other people you know, no parties put together once in temple, no game chat) match? Seems to me so far just playing that it's around 1 in 4 to 1 in 20, depending on time of day and such.

lvlkarmalvl

xxxsfalxxx wrote: »

For that matter, what's your win rate in a "fully random" (no luck at getting other people you know, no parties put together once in temple, no game chat) match?

Actually last night and this morning have been terrible. I can't say for sure, but it definitely seems like we're missing people after the first Heads phase. I'm guessing people are looking at the clock and figuring there's no chance and leaving. Personally I think people are quitting out way to early, but its not my time I guess.

It feels like some weird stuff is happening in the community right now, almost like higher GS players are trying to intentionally tank these instances. Not accusing anyone directly, but when I see 18k GS players running around without Souls equipped (seen this several times) or players whose names I've seen around intentionally drawing aggro onto the Clerics (once by accident, sure, several times in a row?) I get the impression people have either already gotten bored of Tiamat and have resorted to trolling or are trying to frustrate the low GS/casual players into giving up.

respectpays

ill explain the scoreing system which probly why its really hard for u to rank in top u need to keep agro adds the more u agro the adds away from the clerics the higher ur score your dps doesn't matter ur damage doesn't matter if ur going for points that's what its based on sadly so tanks/clerics with push spells get constant agro and can easily be on top

mahburg

lvlkarmalvl wrote: »

xxxsfalxxx wrote: »

For that matter, what's your win rate in a "fully random" (no luck at getting other people you know, no parties put together once in temple, no game chat) match?

Actually last night and this morning have been terrible. I can't say for sure, but it definitely seems like we're missing people after the first Heads phase. I'm guessing people are looking at the clock and figuring there's no chance and leaving. Personally I think people are quitting out way to early, but its not my time I guess.

It feels like some weird stuff is happening in the community right now, almost like higher GS players are trying to intentionally tank these instances. Not accusing anyone directly, but when I see 18k GS players running around without Souls equipped (seen this several times) or players whose names I've seen around intentionally drawing aggro onto the Clerics (once by accident, sure, several times in a row?) I get the impression people have either already gotten bored of Tiamat and have resorted to trolling or are trying to frustrate the low GS/casual players into giving up.

There is definitely Sabotaging of runs going on, further, last night in Zone there was an organised boycott of the instance I was in where higher GS players were camping once again, I have lost count now of the runs where the Black and green heads were down and a big chunk of the Red donw on the first run and right on cue as the first Cleric defense starts half the team bail to the campfire.
That needs to be stopped asap or the game will be toast imho!

One run last night at the end of the run we had only 5 players remaining as everyone else bailed, perhaps ARC should consider increasing the payouts as the numbers bail so those who continue supporting the actives in there, get enhanced bonuses of some description, for maintaining their score for each minute they are in there.
If something like that doesnt happen, then Tiamat becomes like dungeons where folk will just not bother any longer.

raymond00713

It's what the aggro guy said. That's why you see DCs, CWs and GFs constantly throwing adds around. They want the aggro. Im a 19.2k TR, if the fight remains in front of the clerics with no pushes, I get into the 100k+ scores. Once they start pushing them around, I drop into the 40-50k. Plus healing seems to get HUGE points, however pointless it may be at the time.

Also, like it's been said, the rankings appear irrelevant. I've placed second on a win and got a lesser resonance stone. Didn't place at all and got the orb and T2, and once the offhand and a T2.

lvlkarmalvl

mahburg wrote: »

There is definitely Sabotaging of runs going on, further, last night in Zone there was an organised boycott of the instance I was in where higher GS players were camping once again, I have lost count now of the runs where the Black and green heads were down and a big chunk of the Red donw on the first run and right on cue as the first Cleric defense starts half the team bail to the campfire.
That needs to be stopped asap or the game will be toast imho!

One run last night at the end of the run we had only 5 players remaining as everyone else bailed, perhaps ARC should consider increasing the payouts as the numbers bail so those who continue supporting the actives in there, get enhanced bonuses of some description, for maintaining their score for each minute they are in there.
If something like that doesnt happen, then Tiamat becomes like dungeons where folk will just not bother any longer.

Ridiculous. I have no bones with people who bail if at least two dragon heads aren't under 20% after first pass. That means it's really not looking good. I have gone and chilled in the spawn myself after getting in some instances where they couldn't even get the one head under 20% in a pass. I get it - you wait around to see if you pull an Egg or something. But at least contribute from the start and at least contribute properly by equipping and using the Souls. I've given up on trying to teach through the ingame chat system. No one's listening or no one cares. Hopefully people figure it out by the time I come back from my break.

theungodly

raymond00713 wrote: »

It's what the aggro guy said. That's why you see DCs, CWs and GFs constantly throwing adds around. They want the aggro. Im a 19.2k TR, if the fight remains in front of the clerics with no pushes, I get into the 100k+ scores. Once they start pushing them around, I drop into the 40-50k. Plus healing seems to get HUGE points, however pointless it may be at the time.

I dont care about aggro and points, but as a HR trapper, the constant abuse of push-backs annoys the **** out of me. In Tiamat push-back makes sense when used properly. But when i pull the aggro, root everything in a nice bundle and keep them there, and when a DC decides to scatter everything around ...that makes me wanna ...hug people.

>:)

draven165

You say its based on Aggro? Not exactly... And the push backs don't typically draw agro. DC's and CW's push the mobs back to get them as far away from the Clerics as possible because the dragon breath targets players. So even though you may have rooted them or have agro, if you are near the clerics fighting them there is a chance the dragon breath will hit the clerics so we typically push the mobs further away.

As far as ranking and points. Its not so much about aggro as it is more about points associated with different types of actions taken. Think of it like this but keep in mind this is not a 100% actual representation -

Each action taken is weighted I am sure but we as players will not be privy to that weighted measure. So for example You get X amount of points for each point in healing
You get X amount of points for each DPS point dealt
You get X amount of points for each point of damage taken

So now with the above thought think about tanks - They are doing some DPS plus they are taking damage plus some skills heal them - So they are getting a higher margin of points - Same with Healers - DPS are almost made to not take damage (high deflect etc) and they don't heal very well (typically just Life Steal) so they are solely reliant on their DPS numbers.

If the weighting on Heals is higher than DPS this explains why there are generally more Clerics in the top 5. In fact I have never been less than in the top 5. And this is without using Astral Seal mind you. I know my DPS is low as I am primarily a Heal Spec which is why I believe the healing is weighted more than DPS. And I rarely get aggro on anything so the aggro theory doesn't make sense. And the reason I say it has to be weighted is think of the end of Dungeon runs where the DPS are doing 30-50 million damage but the healer is only doing 8-10Million. Heals must be weighted higher for scoring points in Tiamat than damage.

Just my thoughts.

xxxsfalxxx

Perhaps the better question is what does being 1st get you versus what being 25th gets you. It appears nothing. So why does it matter.

The thing about Tiamat is that regardless of that leaderboard, there are only two numbers that aren't numbers, and they apply to all. Everyone has won and is first, or everyone has lost and is last.

lvlkarmalvl

xxxsfalxxx wrote: »

Perhaps the better question is what does being 1st get you versus what being 25th gets you. It appears nothing. So why does it matter.

The thing about Tiamat is that regardless of that leaderboard, there are only two numbers that aren't numbers, and they apply to all. Everyone has won and is first, or everyone has lost and is last.

Exactly! I wish people were more flexible. Ideally everyone would load up right away and the 5 minutes could be used to organize. Maybe 3/7/5/7/3 split for the Dragon Souls.

Max of 8 total people kitted for defending Clerics, ideally 4 tanks and 4 controllers. Everyone else during that phase supports with control, taunt, or healing abilities and uses Souls to help protect. Probably a 6/2/9/2/6 split with the two groups of 2 being roaming left or right as help is needed.

Once Clerics phase is near complete, all DPS should bolt for the appropriate head and leave the tanks and controllers to finish last bit and catch up. If you can get a third head started before timer runs out, you're likely golden.

Obvious the numbers would flex depending on gearscores and strength of builds or variety of classes, but it could be organized if people would let themselves be open to being lead. But without all 25 people contributing (which can't be assured) and without basic concepts of the raid being grasped it is likely to fail at the moment. Perhaps a point comes where most lobbies can simply overpower the raid even if only 10-15 people are doing any work.

Winning should be the only thing in this raid that matters. Personal scores really means nothing in the end, or if it does go play PVP or do Skirmishes. Tiamat Leaderboards do not reflect real contributions in the raid and no-one should be caught up trying to "top" them.

theungodly

draven165 wrote: »

You say its based on Aggro? Not exactly... And the push backs don't typically draw agro. DC's and CW's push the mobs back to get them as far away from the Clerics as possible because the dragon breath targets players. So even though you may have rooted them or have agro, if you are near the clerics fighting them there is a chance the dragon breath will hit the clerics so we typically push the mobs further away.

I dont know, but i doubt that you have to be a certain distance from the clerics when you root/freeze them. As long as you keep foes from hitting the cleric it should be fine. And i always root foes at a safe distance.
Push-backs are great if foes are swarming the clerics or to throw them off edges, but if i (or CWs) root/freeze at a safe distance, it makes no sense to throw them away at that point. They don't take any noticeable damage, the entire group loses flow/encounters, the group have to hunt them down again, they will come from different directions and certainly attack the cleric, the DC wont have push-back ready for some time, etc, etc...
Dragon breath are rarely any problem. Not what i've experienced anyway.

Unknown

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