How would you differentiate between a dps build using only an EB and a low damage support build.
CO's contribution system is lacking, yeah. I don't really have a good answer for that, other than trying to tweak the system to accommodate for tanking (include base damage taken somehow?) and make healing support less exploitative for the scoreboard (maybe give normal credit for your team, and significantly less credit for non-team members you assist).
The DPS only route isn't a fair system, no. But neither is the everybody gets the same chance route. I like to lean towards rewarding people who do things.
Leeches are a problem in events like this, it's easy to miss them. That Mechanon event with the whole zone 1 fiasco? Yeah there were a bunch of leeches each run, which is an issue when there's limited space and a time limit.
If in fact the support build lowers the dps of the team, I do see a problem -- but the problem is that support is ineffective, not with scoring.
Support is actually quite effective. My support toons have managed to keep teams in alerts alive that would wipe on anything because they were all squishy dps. I've seen support toons be more effective at dps even than some dps builds. Stop the support hating.
I said 'if support reduces the dps of the team'. Good support in challenging content does not do so.
The person 'hating' on support is aiqa. I'm not the person who asserted
You're the one demanding team dps as the only measure of effectiveness. Aiqa is simply right; for open world content built the way Kigatilik is, you're better off with five DPS. If a support would be useful - and from what I hear, Kigatilik doesn't really count as "challenging content" - it would be even more useful to have that support healing you from outside your team.
If a support would be useful - and from what I hear, Kigatilik doesn't really count as "challenging content" - it would be even more useful to have that support healing you from outside your team.
You know, there are these things called 'auras', that only affect your team. 'Support' does not just mean 'healing'. Also, 6 > 5.
And no, Kigatilik is not particularly challenging content. The lack of challenging content is, however, a separate problem from mission scoring.
That's why I want to know who's on this DPS bus, so I can get out of their Alert teams and not "drag them down" with my "useless" non-optimized builds. Instead, I'll just go solo missions with Captain Bananahammock or Pandemic or Spider-Bat or...
I doubt most people with high DPS care if you don't have high DPS. Just because someone wants to build a self-sufficient, high damaging toon doesn't mean they're a snooty jerkface snubbing their nose at the filthy casuals. You are just as bad as any elitist looking down their nose at everyone else. No one cares if you can't be bothered to ask / google where the cosmics spawn.
Scoring based on contribution isn't a big mystery. Plenty of games do it all the time in PvP and many of the same standards can be applied to open missions. Damage taken, out healing, damage done, deaths, and objectives completed could be used to calculate an overall contribution.
If I have to tank Warlord my DPS goes down, sometimes by as much as 700-800. That's a significant chunk. If there is a good tank / healer, I don't have to worry about self healing, controlling where fire patches fall, blocking, or knocks. A support character and / or a tank can increase my DPS by quite a bit. I don't need a healer, but it sure is nice to have one. I don't need someone else to tank, but that's another thing that's damn nice to have.
I'd say one of the great appeals to FF is that you can build a toon that can take care of their own healing most of the time. I doubt most FFs *need* a healer, but that doesn't mean they won't benefit from having a decent one around. Even my friends that are casual builders take self heals so they don't *need* a healer. Considering how often there isn't a healer on the team and how most alerts succeed anyway, I find it hard to believe that all of these FFs *need* a healer. You don't need a "god build" to be able to heal yourself.
In my time running damage parsers, there are not that many people doing super DPS. Notable exceptions are Straifing Run builds and sometimes Rimefire. Well, and the PA exploit builds. But even then, they tend to only be around 1k more than general high dps builds. (this is in actual content not on poor, defenseless PoHo dummies) Outside of someone popping out of a Burst to do an OM, I seriously doubt a single person is going to do more DPS than a team.
It isn't hard to make a high dps build, it's just so easy to screw it up.
Kiga's spawn point is pretty easy to find... the ones on MI are a bit harder... I suggest anyone who is detected to CO at least fight these bosses... if but for the novelty factor.
That was just a pouting tantrum much like a spoiled brat would throw. What he really meant was:
And I'll resign myself to never knowing where Kiga or Qwyjibo or Teliosaur spawn, or when, because I can't be bothered to put in any effort whatsoever to see them.
The locations have been detailed in many posts, most of which you probably never read because they didn't agree with what you wanted to see. But again the ape is on the North Coast in Echinos Shores. Take the road down the the hill from the Megadrilles and you are there. The dino next to the bluff on the road that runs inland from Slither Beach, you know where ALL the dinos are. Kiga on the northwest side of Canada. Fly towards the left claw and if you can't find his altar you are blind.
Also they always spawn when the server comes up so they're not hard to find just after maintenance. Heh Qwyjibo killed me the other day when I took an unfortunate break while hunting worms for that Unity mission.
If you want to try your hand at these rewards, I suggest, as was suggested before, to be polite and try and get into groups or a chat channel that keeps tabs on these cosmics to have a shot at the action. Or, start your own groups and channels for these purposes.
CO's contribution system is lacking, yeah. I don't really have a good answer for that, other than trying to tweak the system to accommodate for tanking (include base damage taken somehow?) and make healing support less exploitative for the scoreboard (maybe give normal credit for your team, and significantly less credit for non-team members you assist).
The DPS only route isn't a fair system, no. But neither is the everybody gets the same chance route. I like to lean towards rewarding people who do things.
Leeches are a problem in events like this, it's easy to miss them. That Mechanon event with the whole zone 1 fiasco? Yeah there were a bunch of leeches each run, which is an issue when there's limited space and a time limit.
In theory I agree with the sentiment that scoring should influence drop chances. And I agree leeches are annoying, even one can take away much of the fun for many other people. The rampagers channel was even made private just because one leech was bragging about what he was doing.
But looking back at how F&I was handled I don't think it's a good idea, scoring systems are nice only if they are fair enough and that requires much work. Cryptic at this time seems to be going for only changing stuff when the time and effort investments are next to nothing.
So choosing between only having any significantly higher drop chance when using a build optimized for the fight and scoring system, and on the other hand giving anyone an equal chance I'll go with the latter.
You know, there are these things called 'auras', that only affect your team. 'Support' does not just mean 'healing'. Also, 6 > 5.
And no, Kigatilik is not particularly challenging content. The lack of challenging content is, however, a separate problem from mission scoring.
Not all low damage support builds are using auras, and not all auras boost damage.
Any situation where on an individual basis "you are only welcome with X or Y" (like with PB in the past) stuff happens is not acceptable for me.
Claiming this is a problem with the way support if handled in CO is fine 'n all, but it's completely besides the point. We are discussing CO, not some other game where support works differently. And of course CO could be changed, but that was not implied in your posts and in my opinion way to much work for a scoring system. If that much effort was invested a scoring system that works with CO in its current state would be easier, but that would have to be much more complicated than just a dps race.
Not all low damage support builds are using auras, and not all auras boost damage.
Useful support builds do one or more of the following:
Directly damage the enemy, thus increasing team damage.
Directly buff the team, thus increasing team damage.
Debuff the enemy's defenses, thus increasing team damage (or, occasionally, permitting accomplishing other tasks, though there are very few such in CO).
Heal or prevent damage (or other incapacitation) to the team, thus preventing reductions to the team's damage.
Debuff or prevent the enemy's attacks, reducing that enemy's ability to do damage (or other incapacitation), thus preventing reductions to the team's damage.
AoAC does #2. AoED does #1 and #2. AoPM does #2 and (to a small degree) #4. AoRP does #4. The spec tree auras do either #2 or #4. A support build using Seraphim or Medical Nanites does #4. Note that #4 and #5 are only valuable if the enemy's attacks are powerful enough that they would otherwise reduce the team's damage. #3 and #5 help everyone, not just your team, which is a problem for scoring, but given that #3 is more often done by DPS than by support, and #5 is classically 'controller' not 'support', it's hardly a specific problem with getting credit for support.
I bet my Socks and my Laundry how this post will be shut down...they wont listen...they never do...not saying your idea is bad, i agree with your idea...but at this point how PWE is theres not much we can do...
INB4 any community dev or whatever else closes this topic for whatever reason;
- Don't suggest about making a team yourself, to compete with that certain farming group. They seriously out-damage anyone else with broken builds. I've seen the WHOLE team use TGM and never hit below 3k per tick while also using other attacks.
- Can't try and ask to join the existing group. They're extremely strict, sticking together and giving no-one a chance to join. They don't even sell any of the drops, not even overpriced.
SO BASICALLY that small group of players are monopolizing a part of the game and no-one else can do anything about it...
How is that in any way fair for anyone else from this game's community?
Careful, they'll show up and call you a big whiny baby while implying that you're too rude to invite to their group.
INB4 any community dev or whatever else closes this topic for whatever reason;
- Don't suggest about making a team yourself, to compete with that certain farming group. They seriously out-damage anyone else with broken builds. I've seen the WHOLE team use TGM and never hit below 3k per tick while also using other attacks.
-Been using 2GM on my MUNI/GAD Main since 2009...when the best you could do with it was heal someone in PvP who was using BCR/RR. I'd say I've earned my pistols.
-The top unbeatable DPS builds in the game wouldn't use 2GM anyways. Sure it's good but there are stronger options. Funny how nobody ever complains about that team of Ice Toons that just steamrolls everything.
-"Broken Builds" and "using other attacks" makes me think(I could be wrong, please correct me if that is the case) you're hinting at a certain exploit that should have been corrected in this game YEARS ago. If this is the case, you are simply wrong.
- Can't try and ask to join the existing group. They're extremely strict, sticking together and giving no-one a chance to join. They don't even sell any of the drops, not even overpriced.
-Strict? Ok, that's laughable.
-Wait, they work together in a team(which has a limit of 5 people and then it's "full")?
-They're not selling the drops with the .0001% Drop Rate? What could they be doing with them since they must have tons by now? Do you think they're just hoarding them into a SG Vault to make them feel all warm and fuzzy?(Spoiler: that was a joke. The drops are entirely too rare to ever bother with something as petty as the Auction House. The people after the unlocks want the unlocks to unlock).
-I'm sorry, who did you speak to on this issue?
-Followup: Since forum names and handles can be different....who are you?
SO BASICALLY that small group of players are monopolizing a part of the game and no-one else can do anything about it...
How is that in any way fair for anyone else from this game's community?
You're right. This is totally unfair to the people hanging out in the Ren Center, or even better yet those who don't even log into the game, who aren't getting the drops they're not even trying to get. You encouraging them to not even bother trying because if "meanie big boogiemen" will probably change the turnout from 5 to.....5.
Fair enough, you've been mostly polite...mostly wrong...but mostly polite none the less. I won't go into the breakdown on the last post since you've been pretty cool about the whole thing. Honestly, my reply wasn't entirely directed towards you but a trend I see of people who seem to find it far easier to make incorrect assumptions of how they KNOW something works instead of actually doing research. Alot of those people do tend to either live in the Ren Center or just not log into the game at all and complain on the forums.
As for this thread....it's a pretty simple thread. Group A wants X. Group B could care less. Group A starts with the Boogieman/Mean People Name Calling blah blah blah. Group B gets all defensive. Nothing happens. Thread dies. Thread comes back about 6 months to a year later. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Recycle.
Careful, they'll show up and call you a big whiny baby while implying that you're too rude to invite to their group.
Naw, that's just you.
And Xeno is pretty much incorrect about everything he said except the no selling bit. The abysmal drop rate and newbies to the group pretty much take care of that.
-True, TGM isn't the best, but those farmers use nothing but TGM while adding other things to it.
I would estimate that somewhere between 1/2 and 1/3 of the people who hunt Kigatilik use 2GM. It's a good power and thus people use it, but there are plenty of other high dps builds.
-I'm more than sure that they have the pieces unlocked already
You'd be wrong. The drop rate is on the order of 1 per month, and there are two drops, so add one new player every 2 months and there will never be a backlog.
You'd be wrong. The drop rate is on the order of 1 per month, and there are two drops, so add one new player every 2 months and there will never be a backlog.
more like every 4-6months. Unless we been getting drops I don't know about?
I put 2GM on Gunrunner because I'd heard it was so wonderful. And don't get me wrong, it outperforms, say, Automatic Rifle as a single-target attack. But in my experience, Gatling Gun does a better job overall, and I use it quite a lot since making it Imaginary.
Then again, I select powers mostly for how they fit the theme of the toon (Gunrunner's has changed since Foxbatcon - now his exposure to depleted uranium rounds and certain chemical compounds in the Iraq war left him with not only superspeed, but the ability to psychokinetically emulate the weapons of war), rather than how "OP" they might be, so...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Nah, I usually don't resort to name calling and...I don't know them from Adam to know if they're polite or rude. <shrugs>
You should look back through the thread to see who I was actually referring to not sure why you're so eager to put yourself in those crosshairs o3o not like I used your name.
And Xeno is pretty much incorrect about everything he said except the no selling bit. The abysmal drop rate and newbies to the group pretty much take care of that.
Sure that makes sense. You are a big whiny baby, and you are too rude to invite to my group o3o
You should look back through the thread to see who I was actually referring to not sure why you're so eager to put yourself in those crosshairs o3o not like I used your name.
Actually, I read your post as a trap for the next person to reply and I wanted to step around those particular crosshairs by taking a momment to clarify. You are right though, you did not name any names.
Actually, I read your post as a trap for the next person to reply and I wanted to step around those particular crosshairs by taking a momment to clarify. You are right though, you did not name any names.
That's what happens when you try to avoid traps that aren't traps...you fall into an actual trap o3o
Comments
CO's contribution system is lacking, yeah. I don't really have a good answer for that, other than trying to tweak the system to accommodate for tanking (include base damage taken somehow?) and make healing support less exploitative for the scoreboard (maybe give normal credit for your team, and significantly less credit for non-team members you assist).
The DPS only route isn't a fair system, no. But neither is the everybody gets the same chance route. I like to lean towards rewarding people who do things.
Leeches are a problem in events like this, it's easy to miss them. That Mechanon event with the whole zone 1 fiasco? Yeah there were a bunch of leeches each run, which is an issue when there's limited space and a time limit.
Support is actually quite effective. My support toons have managed to keep teams in alerts alive that would wipe on anything because they were all squishy dps. I've seen support toons be more effective at dps even than some dps builds. Stop the support hating.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
You're the one demanding team dps as the only measure of effectiveness. Aiqa is simply right; for open world content built the way Kigatilik is, you're better off with five DPS. If a support would be useful - and from what I hear, Kigatilik doesn't really count as "challenging content" - it would be even more useful to have that support healing you from outside your team.
And no, Kigatilik is not particularly challenging content. The lack of challenging content is, however, a separate problem from mission scoring.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I doubt most people with high DPS care if you don't have high DPS. Just because someone wants to build a self-sufficient, high damaging toon doesn't mean they're a snooty jerkface snubbing their nose at the filthy casuals. You are just as bad as any elitist looking down their nose at everyone else. No one cares if you can't be bothered to ask / google where the cosmics spawn.
Scoring based on contribution isn't a big mystery. Plenty of games do it all the time in PvP and many of the same standards can be applied to open missions. Damage taken, out healing, damage done, deaths, and objectives completed could be used to calculate an overall contribution.
If I have to tank Warlord my DPS goes down, sometimes by as much as 700-800. That's a significant chunk. If there is a good tank / healer, I don't have to worry about self healing, controlling where fire patches fall, blocking, or knocks. A support character and / or a tank can increase my DPS by quite a bit. I don't need a healer, but it sure is nice to have one. I don't need someone else to tank, but that's another thing that's damn nice to have.
I'd say one of the great appeals to FF is that you can build a toon that can take care of their own healing most of the time. I doubt most FFs *need* a healer, but that doesn't mean they won't benefit from having a decent one around. Even my friends that are casual builders take self heals so they don't *need* a healer. Considering how often there isn't a healer on the team and how most alerts succeed anyway, I find it hard to believe that all of these FFs *need* a healer. You don't need a "god build" to be able to heal yourself.
In my time running damage parsers, there are not that many people doing super DPS. Notable exceptions are Straifing Run builds and sometimes Rimefire. Well, and the PA exploit builds. But even then, they tend to only be around 1k more than general high dps builds. (this is in actual content not on poor, defenseless PoHo dummies) Outside of someone popping out of a Burst to do an OM, I seriously doubt a single person is going to do more DPS than a team.
It isn't hard to make a high dps build, it's just so easy to screw it up.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
That was just a pouting tantrum much like a spoiled brat would throw. What he really meant was:
The locations have been detailed in many posts, most of which you probably never read because they didn't agree with what you wanted to see. But again the ape is on the North Coast in Echinos Shores. Take the road down the the hill from the Megadrilles and you are there. The dino next to the bluff on the road that runs inland from Slither Beach, you know where ALL the dinos are. Kiga on the northwest side of Canada. Fly towards the left claw and if you can't find his altar you are blind.
Also they always spawn when the server comes up so they're not hard to find just after maintenance. Heh Qwyjibo killed me the other day when I took an unfortunate break while hunting worms for that Unity mission.
Or...
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
In theory I agree with the sentiment that scoring should influence drop chances. And I agree leeches are annoying, even one can take away much of the fun for many other people. The rampagers channel was even made private just because one leech was bragging about what he was doing.
But looking back at how F&I was handled I don't think it's a good idea, scoring systems are nice only if they are fair enough and that requires much work. Cryptic at this time seems to be going for only changing stuff when the time and effort investments are next to nothing.
So choosing between only having any significantly higher drop chance when using a build optimized for the fight and scoring system, and on the other hand giving anyone an equal chance I'll go with the latter.
Not all low damage support builds are using auras, and not all auras boost damage.
Any situation where on an individual basis "you are only welcome with X or Y" (like with PB in the past) stuff happens is not acceptable for me.
Claiming this is a problem with the way support if handled in CO is fine 'n all, but it's completely besides the point. We are discussing CO, not some other game where support works differently. And of course CO could be changed, but that was not implied in your posts and in my opinion way to much work for a scoring system. If that much effort was invested a scoring system that works with CO in its current state would be easier, but that would have to be much more complicated than just a dps race.
AoAC does #2. AoED does #1 and #2. AoPM does #2 and (to a small degree) #4. AoRP does #4. The spec tree auras do either #2 or #4. A support build using Seraphim or Medical Nanites does #4. Note that #4 and #5 are only valuable if the enemy's attacks are powerful enough that they would otherwise reduce the team's damage. #3 and #5 help everyone, not just your team, which is a problem for scoring, but given that #3 is more often done by DPS than by support, and #5 is classically 'controller' not 'support', it's hardly a specific problem with getting credit for support. No, it's not. You should get credit for being useful. If support are not useful, the obvious result is that support will not get credit.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Careful, they'll show up and call you a big whiny baby while implying that you're too rude to invite to their group.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
-Been using 2GM on my MUNI/GAD Main since 2009...when the best you could do with it was heal someone in PvP who was using BCR/RR. I'd say I've earned my pistols.
-The top unbeatable DPS builds in the game wouldn't use 2GM anyways. Sure it's good but there are stronger options. Funny how nobody ever complains about that team of Ice Toons that just steamrolls everything.
-"Broken Builds" and "using other attacks" makes me think(I could be wrong, please correct me if that is the case) you're hinting at a certain exploit that should have been corrected in this game YEARS ago. If this is the case, you are simply wrong.
-Strict? Ok, that's laughable.
-Wait, they work together in a team(which has a limit of 5 people and then it's "full")?
-They're not selling the drops with the .0001% Drop Rate? What could they be doing with them since they must have tons by now? Do you think they're just hoarding them into a SG Vault to make them feel all warm and fuzzy?(Spoiler: that was a joke. The drops are entirely too rare to ever bother with something as petty as the Auction House. The people after the unlocks want the unlocks to unlock).
-I'm sorry, who did you speak to on this issue?
-Followup: Since forum names and handles can be different....who are you?
You're right. This is totally unfair to the people hanging out in the Ren Center, or even better yet those who don't even log into the game, who aren't getting the drops they're not even trying to get. You encouraging them to not even bother trying because if "meanie big boogiemen" will probably change the turnout from 5 to.....5.
Nah, I usually don't resort to name calling and...I don't know them from Adam to know if they're polite or rude. <shrugs>
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
As for this thread....it's a pretty simple thread. Group A wants X. Group B could care less. Group A starts with the Boogieman/Mean People Name Calling blah blah blah. Group B gets all defensive. Nothing happens. Thread dies. Thread comes back about 6 months to a year later. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Recycle.
Me...I wanna go to Space. :cool:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Naw, that's just you.
And Xeno is pretty much incorrect about everything he said except the no selling bit. The abysmal drop rate and newbies to the group pretty much take care of that.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Then again, I select powers mostly for how they fit the theme of the toon (Gunrunner's has changed since Foxbatcon - now his exposure to depleted uranium rounds and certain chemical compounds in the Iraq war left him with not only superspeed, but the ability to psychokinetically emulate the weapons of war), rather than how "OP" they might be, so...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
You should look back through the thread to see who I was actually referring to
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Sure that makes sense. You are a big whiny baby, and you are too rude to invite to my group o3o
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Actually, I read your post as a trap for the next person to reply and I wanted to step around those particular crosshairs by taking a momment to clarify. You are right though, you did not name any names.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
do this now!
That's what happens when you try to avoid traps that aren't traps...you fall into an actual trap o3o
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
LOL. Yeah I'm the one who keeps on starting these threads. LOL.
:biggrin:
People are broken. - Lum the Mad