I don't argue against anything that changes this part of the game here. Having the Cosmic timers all around the same is a good thing. There is no reason why some are 6 hours and some are 1.5 hours. Everything you say after that is unclear.
Making Cosmics like Mega D (what you say in the title) means stripping out good rewards, replacing them with crap, and giving out that crap based on the DPS done. With only the highest DPS person getting the best crap.
First you say:
Which says everyone gets a reward based on pure RNG no matter how much damage they contribute.
After that you say:
Which is also different. This would mean that everyone gets a chance at the same drops, but those with higher DPS have a bonus chance. It's part DPS based and part RNG based.
Finally there is:
This is rewards based on DPS brackets. And maybe RNG within brackets. But if you aren't in a certain bracket, you don't have a shot at certain prizes. Not pure RNG and not top DPS only gets the top prize.
You presented 4 different ways to distribute the rewards. Which makes what you want unclear.
Welcome to conversations where people discuss the topic, rather than just work as hard as they can to tell everybody that they're right about everything.
The issue i'm seeing is it wouldn't be hard to leave a character there and have a very simple macro prevent him from being DCed and auto EB (or more) anything in range. If people were willing to do it for Megaterak i assume the rarest costumes in the game would be enough to find a ton of bots at kiga's.
Sure. And people could que for alerts and stand there and do nothing and just let everyone else finish the alert. Yet somehow, alerts aren't even 5% leechers. "A ton of bots" is unlikely, and whatever ones are there would probably find their demise as everyone who shows up says "Okay, when Kiga activates, let him stomp the bots first". That could even become a ritual for the event, a bonding experience for everyone involved.
Sure. And people could que for alerts and stand there and do nothing and just let everyone else finish the alert. Yet somehow, alerts aren't even 5% leechers. "A ton of bots" is unlikely, and whatever ones are there would probably find their demise as everyone who shows up says "Okay, when Kiga activates, let him stomp the bots first". That could even become a ritual for the event, a bonding experience for everyone involved.
Sure. And people could que for alerts and stand there and do nothing and just let everyone else finish the alert. Yet somehow, alerts aren't even 5% leechers. "A ton of bots" is unlikely, and whatever ones are there would probably find their demise as everyone who shows up says "Okay, when Kiga activates, let him stomp the bots first".
Are you under the impression that death prevents gaining rewards in an OM? (not that I, personally, would expect a lot of actual bots. Just ordinary random leeches, who, IME, are all over the place in Alerts. And people who accidentally got credit, the open mission system isn't very selective about what damage it scores).
Are you under the impression that death prevents gaining rewards in an OM? (not that I, personally, would expect a lot of actual bots. Just ordinary random leeches, who, IME, are all over the place in Alerts. And people who accidentally got credit, the open mission system isn't very selective about what damage it scores).
Actually, the proposed situation doesn't even require automation; just idle with some pets.
Like I said before, I don't think them getting the rewards is an actual issue. The only issue I see is them cluttering up the place, and that's barely an issue. I mean, so what? They get stuff for not doing anything; if you think about it, that happens all the time in this game already, and there are almost no systems in place to prevent it. Why does this suddenly need it.
The objective isn't "prevent leechers". The objective is to improve accessibility. Leechers are a completely different issue; if all content in CO that could potentially be leeched was never created, we wouldn't have a game.
Are you under the impression that death prevents gaining rewards in an OM? (not that I, personally, would expect a lot of actual bots. Just ordinary random leeches, who, IME, are all over the place in Alerts. And people who accidentally got credit, the open mission system isn't very selective about what damage it scores).
There could always be a death counter, for e.g. more deaths = bigger penalty on the reward roll. Voila, suddenly support heals/buffs and aggro-draw tank players are valued for helping to keep squishy offensive DPS builds alive.
People accidentally getting credit by just waltzing into the OM without doing much or at the last minute can be prevented with an activity timer. Every time a player leaves the OM area, the timer is reset. It shouldn't be hard to detect if the player just sits around in the player and do nothing or just spam EB. Pets are a little tricky, but then again pets are still significantly more useful than doing nothing or EB spamming.
A vote kick feature would help for alert leechers. Heck, there could even be one for OMs.
Welcome to conversations where people discuss the topic, rather than just work as hard as they can to tell everybody that they're right about everything.
Well, normally when someone suggests something, they have an idea of what they'd like to see. But you seem to just throw out random stuff and then give attitude when someone asks for you to clarify what you're asking for.
Non-DPS players who have contributed in the fight in ways other than direct DPS deserve that accessibility as much as the DPS'ers do.
They get that by teaming; non-DPS help by increasing the DPS of the rest of the team (bearing in mind that being defeated reduces your DPS to 0). If you don't plan to team, well, bring DPS. Also, are you sure you actually are contributing? People don't bring all-DPS teams to a fight because they want to win the dps race, it's because they don't think they need anything other than DPS.
They get that by teaming; non-DPS help by increasing the DPS of the rest of the team (bearing in mind that being defeated reduces your DPS to 0). If you don't plan to team, well, bring DPS. Also, are you sure you actually are contributing? People don't bring all-DPS teams to a fight because they want to win the dps race, it's because they don't think they need anything other than DPS.
So how do healers for e.g. increase the DPS of the team when their usefulness have little to nothing to do with overall DPS? How about dedicated tanks for another e.g.?
See, it's exactly this "DPS or get out" mentality with regards to the system that I have issue with; asserting that people not choosing to go with a DPS build as opposed to playing other types of roles that appeal to them have no business participating, since their "contribution" is questionable.
So how do healers for e.g. increase the DPS of the team when their usefulness have little to nothing to do with overall DPS? How about dedicated tanks for another e.g.?
By preventing the rest of the team from needing to spend time healing, blocking, using threat wipes, or respawning.
See, it's exactly this "DPS or get out" mentality with regards to the system that I have issue with; asserting that people not choosing to go with a DPS build as opposed to playing other types of roles that appeal to them have no business participating, since their "contribution" is questionable.
If you want non-dps to be valuable, urge Cryptic to increase NPC damage output. There's nothing this side of Rampages that requires tanking more than 'survivable dps', and nothing but Frosticus that requires a dedicated healer.
By preventing the rest of the team from needing to spend time healing, blocking, using threat wipes, or respawning.
In what way do they numerically increase DPS on their own however when they stop to do stuff to support the DPS'ers? It's a DPS race after all isn't it? No DPS = Not contributing, since this is exactly what the system is really about and doesn't recognize other forms of contribution.
If you want non-dps to be valuable, urge Cryptic to increase NPC damage output. There's nothing this side of Rampages that requires tanking, and nothing but Frosticus that requires a dedicated healer.
You're contradicting yourself. You've already acknowledged the fact that those roles are useful hence valuable. Now all of a sudden it's get Cryptic to do X to make them valuable?
Healers and tanks have always been downright valuable in something like Gravitar rampage. I have no idea what you're talking about.
You're contradicting yourself. You've already acknowledged the fact that those roles are useful hence valuable.
No, I'm saying they can be valuable. If your team would otherwise be losing significant time to blocking, healing, or respawning, they're helpful. For most content, that's not true.
That doesn't require anything specific about rewards. Rewards don't need accessibility.
I believe they do. Rewards are an integral part of MMOs, and players should have access to attempting to acquire them whenever they feel like it, without any other player having any power to prevent them from making that attempt.
And no, players being required to have specific builds is not an acceptable stipulation of being able to make a feasible attempt. A core aspect of the game is customization. Everyone else in the thread seems to have figured it out.
Well, normally when someone suggests something, they have an idea of what they'd like to see. But you seem to just throw out random stuff and then give attitude when someone asks for you to clarify what you're asking for.
It's because of the way you're asking.
If you don't know what I'm suggesting, then just don't participate in the thread. You don't even know if you agree or disagree with what I'm saying.
During the destroid invasion I saw quite a few people afk/toggle their eb and pretend to contribute. Giving the same chance for top end rewards for little to no contribution results in this sort of behavior. The contribution system is far from ideal, but it at least gets people to try to be useful.
Challenged-based rewards are an integral part of MMOs. Giving rewards only to the highest performer is the normal way MMOs work.
It's perfectly possible to have a concept build that's also high damage output. And in any case, such build limitations are also standard to MMOs.
I do understand what you're saying. I just think you're wrong.
Out of all the MMOs that I play, NONE of them reward people based on challenges. Except World of Tanks, for you get your money and xp based how well you do, but even then the difference is not that much. Otherwise the vast majority of MMOs do NOT have challenge based rewards. They have random drops that just depend on if you show up and do something during the fight other than damage. I don't know what mmos you play, but the mmos that I play do not have the reward system you say they do. So no, challenged based rewards are not an integral part of mmos.
Otherwise the vast majority of MMOs do NOT have challenge based rewards. They have random drops that just depend on if you show up and do something during the fight other than damage.
Normally this is gated by the need to reach the fight -- high value rewards are behind other mobs and are thus unreachable unless you have a team or a super build.
In what way do they numerically increase DPS on their own however when they stop to do stuff to support the DPS'ers? It's a DPS race after all isn't it? No DPS = Not contributing, since this is exactly what the system is really about and doesn't recognize other forms of contribution.
My main DPS character has to block often in Gravitar because my HP / Defense is not all that high and melee is unloved. When I block or pop conviction, that's damage I'm not doing. Just having an AoPM healer would be awesome because I could attack with a lot less blocking and healing plus the extra stats would mean never needing to use my EB for laser sword. Maybe even having faster cool downs for my spike attacks.
On a Cosmic, not needing to worry about healing myself means I could focus on damage. Not being the tank is also nice. I've been in F&I, pulled aggro from Frosty for a second and died to the insta Frost Dagger to the face. Tanking Blaze is doable for me but requires I be able to see her to block the rimefire. Not that easy when she's covered with 50 power effects and Cryptic decided to be rude by not including a charge up graphic by her name. It much easier if I don't have to tank either of them because blocking and death lowers my dps.
Considering the lack of needing a team in most things, I don't see the downside to having a few instances where rewards are based on a team and actually needing a team. Yes, that means the solo person who walks up isn't going to get anything decent, but they can also group up next time. Not much of a fan of the 'A' for effort reward system for permanent content.
If you don't know what I'm suggesting, then just don't participate in the thread. You don't even know if you agree or disagree with what I'm saying.
Agreeing with the timer part doesn't count then? And asking for clarity on your position doesn't count as participation either? It is very rare when people tell me what I think that they are correct. You are not that rare person who gets it right.
During the destroid invasion I saw quite a few people afk/toggle their eb and pretend to contribute. Giving the same chance for top end rewards for little to no contribution results in this sort of behavior. The contribution system is far from ideal, but it at least gets people to try to be useful.
Well I did mention several times making it so the top few contributors get a higher chance. Shutting out everyone other than a single group is, for me at least, way below less than ideal.
I mean, what happens if 6 of the people who are against this change show up to do Kiga. Does the 6th guy just leave? If he doesn't, he can stay and participate for a chance at nothing. I think that 6th guy should get something, and no, I don't think it's acceptable to deny him any reward whatsoever because "somebody might leech at some other point in time".
They actually aren't. CO was the first MMO I encountered where this system was used.
Many MMOs don't have world bosses at all; competition is irrelevant for instanced mission bosses, because it's not generally possible to leech (without permission) if the team can just kick you out of the lair.
All MMOs have some method of challenge-based content gating. It's not like a good build for Kigatilik is more challenging or restrictive than a good build for soloing Andrith.
Well I did mention several times making it so the top few contributors get a higher chance. Shutting out everyone other than a single group is, for me at least, way below less than ideal.
I mean, what happens if 6 of the people who are against this change show up to do Kiga. Does the 6th guy just leave? If he doesn't, he can stay and participate for a chance at nothing. I think that 6th guy should get something, and no, I don't think it's acceptable to deny him any reward whatsoever because "somebody might leech at some other point in time".
It's pretty demoralizing when someone who did nothing gets the shiny over someone who put an effort in. I don't think people who contribute very little shouldn't get anything (frankly the base rewards on many encounters need some tweaking as they're sad), I just don't think they should have a shot at the top-end rewards.
It's pretty demoralizing when someone who did nothing gets the shiny over someone who put an effort in. I don't think people who contribute very little shouldn't get anything (frankly the base rewards on many encounters need some tweaking as they're sad), I just don't think they should have a shot at the top-end rewards.
How would you differentiate between a dps build using only an EB and a low damage support build.
Well I did mention several times making it so the top few contributors get a higher chance. Shutting out everyone other than a single group is, for me at least, way below less than ideal.
When CO has been changed enough so that build A never does 10 times as much damage as build B...
By the support build being on a team. If you're playing a support build and not on a team, you're doing it wrong.
That would not differentiate between someone just using EB vs someone that is playing support. And there are plenty of ways to support people without being on a team. I still remember when my support toon came in 3rd place in points on takofanes just because I illumiinated takos. Illumination, one of the most underrated powers that when used right is very powerful. Most of my support toons have it. Now, does that mean that my damage rocks as support to? No, its doesn't. My damage as support tends to suck and is very low. Being on a team will not help the system differentiate between someone who built their eb to be strong and only ebs vs a support toon.
That would not differentiate between someone just using EB vs someone that is playing support.
If a team wants to invite someone who's not going to do anything but fire an energy builder, that's the team's choice. If this means the team performs badly, well, choices have consequences. The measure of a support build is the degree to which the team, as a whole, performs better.
And there are plenty of ways to support people without being on a team. I still remember when my support toon came in 3rd place in points on takofanes just because I illumiinated takos.
That is, to be honest, an exploit -- healing should only be scored if the healing is actually useful, and there's no simple way of determining that other than looking at whether people want the healer on their team.
If a team wants to invite someone who's not going to do anything but fire an energy builder, that's the team's choice. If this means the team performs badly, well, choices have consequences. The measure of a support build is the degree to which the team, as a whole, performs better.
Which can't be measured like dps can be. Thus you can't reward people on world bosses or events by damage or healing (not all support are healing).
That is, to be honest, an exploit -- healing should only be scored if the healing is actually useful, and there's no simple way of determining that other than looking at whether people want the healer on their team.
Its not an exploit, its the way illumination was made, it debuffs the target for 5 minutes, and everyone that attacks the target gets the mend buff which is a small heal over time. An exploit a few people burning bosses down in seconds using plasma beam before it was nerfed hard.
Its not an exploit, its the way illumination was made
Illumination is not an exploit. Getting open mission credit for it doing healing to people who don't need healing is the exploit. It is easily fixed by not giving credit for healing, and relying on team statistics to give indirect credit for healing.
Doesn't say anything about individual efforts though, and thus the reward system would not work right. The way the game works, each person has to be scored individually and not by team, otherwise a single team can have 4 leechers and one super dps. Can't happen this way, would be a bad idea.
Illumination is not an exploit. Getting open mission credit for it doing healing to people who don't need healing is the exploit. It is easily fixed by not giving credit for healing, and relying on team statistics to give indirect credit for healing.
You must have a hatred for support for saying something like that. Scoring can't take into account your support in a team, thus it would not reward the support ever. And healing someone is not an exploit. I mean seriously, how can you even suggest that healing is an exploit? Thats like saying breathing in life is cheating. And in truth, everyone needs healing at some point during most fights with the aoe damage that comes out. So, no exploit there. And NEVER again suggest that healing people is an exploit.
Doesn't say anything about individual efforts though, and thus the reward system would not work right. The way the game works, each person has to be scored individually and not by team, otherwise a single team can have 4 leechers and one super dps. Can't happen this way, would be a bad idea.
Why? If a super DPS wants to drag along some leeches, and can actually win the dps race solo (unless the competition is inept, he can't), that's his perogative.
You must have a hatred for support for saying something like that. Scoring can't take into account your support in a team, thus it would not reward the support ever.
That's a problem with open mission scoring. It's not a problem for scoring of mob drops, which is explicitly by team.
Have you actually played CO? Most freeforms do not need external healing in most fights.
That right there made me realize that you are a troll. Fact: Most freeforms need healing, the god builds are a minority. Thus external healing is greatly appreciated. I don't think you have played CO at all. You sound like a troll spouting nonesense at this point. Go play alerts and tell me again how external healing is not needed by freeforms, you'll find that most do need external healing. I am claiming victory in this argument due to your lack of knowledge of what you are talking about. And the fact that you think that most freeforms are god builds that can survive on their own. Just because there is a few god builds out there doesn't mean the rest of the game doesn't need healing, stop hating on support.
Also, I've been playing since the betas. I have over 90 toons and plenty of 40s. Never again assume someone hasn't played this game just because you don't know what you are talking about.
Why? If a super DPS wants to drag along some leeches, and can actually win the dps race solo (unless the competition is inept, he can't), that's his perogative.
Double standard. Leeches are leeches, period. To call someone a leech means that they contributed zero to the fight. You've made it clear that you support this DPS race mechanic to drive away the leeches, but somehow it's okay for a player to bring one just because they're playing a super DPS FOTM build?
This pretty much affirms what I've been suspecting so far; Optimal DPS freeform builds seem to be the only ones relevant to you and somehow should be the baseline for content to scale to. Your comment about Gravitar being soloable aka FOTM build toe-to-toe fight while what everyone else in the fight seem to be good for is just providing res's seems to also affirm it.
If someone doesn't need healing, you shouldn't get anything for doing it.
Have you actually played CO? Most freeforms do not need external healing in most fights.
Technically only one build template is required for CO. Technically a freeform DPS that is superior in firepower, survivability and aggro-management is the only build required. Every other template is unnecessary.
However that's only because of inherent game design issues. The robust freeform system allows players to make extremely self-sufficient builds, but at the same time support powers geared towards everything else but DPS are in the same system. The game obviously encourages all manner of builds and playstyles. There's no obvious prerequisite for any content in the game to force players into bring only certain builds to play the content.
Kiga only cares about damage. The reward system isn't capable of detecting if someone has spent their time healing to keep people alive, assuming they need it in the first place. It's a DPS race. It has decided that if you bring a optimal DPS build into the fight, you're contributing. Support builds that spend their time doing anything but optimal DPS aren't really contributing, if anything at all. That's what the reward system has decided. It's a bullcrap reward system and there should be better ways of going about rewards without caring about damage.
TL:DR = If you're going to have a MMO that offers various build options and playstyles, don't just gate content so that it favors only one build type, or at least make the effort to.
As for the assertion that it's some kind of MMO reward gating standard, I've never seen it in other MMOs that I've played.
Soul, seriously, take it back a notch there. Calling someone a troll because they disagree with you or can actually build a self sufficient toon(no not that silly "god build" stuff) is simply a means by which to label and then dismiss the discussion. And before you label me...I'm also a beta player who has an account with many toons but they're all "Aesthetic Functional Concept" which means they're theme toons that simply don't suck. I hear this "god build" garbage all the time because Cross has 2gm and Lead Tempest....which I've had since 2009...when the best you could do with those powers was heal someone in PvP when they popped BCR/RR...and yet I have both the Eagle and Energy Pistols on that toon(for fun, really, and they had unlocks although I did use those enegry pistols tons before the 2gm boost that made them ineffective).
Ok, so most people do need heals in an alert but since you're mentioning freeforms I would add that they get those heals, in most situations, from themselves. It's true support has it's place but, IMO, the majority of that place is what Panta and some others have been saying. If you're healing me then that's less time I have to worry about damage, healing, and aggro management. I can simply let loose if I'm a DPS which is you helping me improve my overall DPS. If we're in a team, which in this situation we kinda should be unless it's Rampages and their weird "team-up hates actual teams setup", and you're doing this for the others as well...then we're doing quite well. Heck, if you can juggle all of that and toss out a moderate amount of DPS(example: Conduit) then that's just more icing on the combat cake there.
So, let's try not to jump the game to the problem words that pop up on the forums from time to time like "Troll", "Hating", and "Fact" because you have to be very very careful with those....or something like this happens.
Also, in a game like CO(which isn't exactly the benchmark on difficulty) it's not so much that these mythical "god mode builds" are so vastly superior than the majority of the playerbase so much that many players just aren't that good. That's what I usually take away from your suggestion to observe alerts. I've seen 15+ random theme builds absolutely crush 40s in alerts. Call it "Nature of The MMO Beast" if you will. Also, since they didn't get much mention, I've seen ATs do the same. They might have some questionable and redundant overall build designs but if a person puts the time into learning them they can get some pretty solid results in most cases.
Final Thought: Just a small tip. I wouldn't be so eager to go knowledge vs. knowledge with Panta if I were you. :cool:
Jenny, can't a DPS build just be a DPS build without being FOTM? I mean, I can tank Frosticus and Gravitar with an Ice Dodge Toon with PSS Rec. :biggrin:
Also, hypothetical situation here since I don't honestly see any of this really changing except maybe to get opinions and such out for future stuff, but let's say this actually had the quad contrib system that WAR used to have. Let's say Damage, Healing, Incoming Damage, and Objective Contributions did exist(not that much of a stretch since NW has those nice lair scoreboards for the majority of this). Then the tank get's his tank contrib. The healer gets their healer contrib. The DPSer...doesn't really notice the difference. The person(especially on something like the Destroid OM) actually gets rewarded for doing all the work to spawn the Mega D in the 1st place. The EB Leecher...waaay down there on the list. Honestly, the only thing really missing from this equation would likely be a mechanic where the system measures "prevented damage"(debuffs/mitigation on others) as a contrib factor. Even then, if I'm pouring massive heals into a full hp target then I should not expect credit for that. Just like if I shoot something and miss...it shouldn't play dead.
Honestly, WAR had alot going against it(well, it's dead now) but it's overall OM(PQ) mechanics were something I've always kinda wished could have been "borrowed" for OMs in CO.
Course, if this ever did become a reality I suspect someone would take to the forums and start tossing around "Forced Trinity" and other complaints.
TL:DR = If you're going to have a MMO that offers various build options and playstyles, don't just gate content so that it favors only one build type, or at least make the effort to.
Sorry, he pissed me off big time. I was not calling him a troll because he disagreed with me, its because all his knowledge that he brought forth was false and easily discarded. Thats something that trolls do in arguments, they bring up false info. Its obvious he doesn't know anything about the game outside his own super-self reliant built toon, otherwise he would not even spout half the nonesense that he spouted.
I have quite a few freeform toons. Since I build to a theme, however, the ones who are good at DPS tend not to be good at tanking or healing. (Starbolt can burn through almost anything pretty quickly; on the other hand, he'd better move a lot, and carry a number of healing items, and if they're on cooldown he might be screwed.)
That's why I want to know who's on this DPS bus, so I can get out of their Alert teams and not "drag them down" with my "useless" non-optimized builds. Instead, I'll just go solo missions with Captain Bananahammock or Pandemic or Spider-Bat or...
And I'll resign myself to never knowing where Kiga or Qwyjibo or Teliosaur spawn, or when, because obviously I'm not good enough at the game to be permitted to see them.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Kiga's spawn point is pretty easy to find... the ones on MI are a bit harder... I suggest anyone who is detected to CO at least fight these bosses... if but for the novelty factor.
Theme =/= Gimped, Terrible, Dragging Down, Useless, Horrible, and/or Not Good Enough.*
Theme = Theme.
*Unless your theme is to actually be the hero in the locker in Fight Club. In that case, carry on and enjoy your gaming experience however you so choose.
xydaxyda: And the perks. On Alert may take our drops but it will never take...OUR PERKS. <charges off to battle> :biggrin:
Kiga's spawn point is pretty easy to find... the ones on MI are a bit harder... I suggest anyone who is detected to CO at least fight these bosses... if but for the novelty factor.
I've fought kiga and the monkey, only on the pts though, fun fights they are. Whenever I try to find them on live I never see them.
To get a realistic estimate of someone's value in an encounter, as well as damage, you would want to look at buffs, debuffs, healing, crowd control, and tanking. All of these have value that depends on the situation. Or, you can use shortcuts.
For an instance, there's a simple measure: did the team succeed at the objective, and if so, how fast and smooth was it? For open world it's tougher, but 'how much damage did your team do' is one of the better proxies.
The other half of it, however, is choice. You shouldn't get anything (except good feelings for being generous) out of helping people who didn't ask for your help. Yes, that means solo support doesn't get points.
With all this talk about leeches, it's almost as if some people around here actually believe leeches are a real issue in CO.
They're not. Certainly not a big enough issue that it could justify requiring players to accuse one another of being useless and then using that belief to shut those players out.
What's next? iLevels? DPS meters? -50 dkp?
I'll state this again: Top three dpsers get a slightly increased chance at reward, every other person on the list gets an equal chance, and their own separate roll. Simple, and cuts out the BS. Nobody needs to decide if anybody is worth enough to get a chance at the rewards.
If a team wants to invite someone who's not going to do anything but fire an energy builder, that's the team's choice. If this means the team performs badly, well, choices have consequences. The measure of a support build is the degree to which the team, as a whole, performs better.
So... a support build needs to be on a team. But the team it joins is going to do lower damage than when they'd have another dps build "which has consequences".
Are you really not seeing the problem there?
Also claiming people "are doing it wrong", is quite the elitist attitude.
So... a support build needs to be on a team. But the team it joins is going to do lower damage than when they'd have another dps build "which has consequences".
Are you really not seeing the problem there?
If in fact the support build lowers the dps of the team, I do see a problem -- but the problem is that support is ineffective, not with scoring.
Comments
Welcome to conversations where people discuss the topic, rather than just work as hard as they can to tell everybody that they're right about everything.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Sure. And people could que for alerts and stand there and do nothing and just let everyone else finish the alert. Yet somehow, alerts aren't even 5% leechers. "A ton of bots" is unlikely, and whatever ones are there would probably find their demise as everyone who shows up says "Okay, when Kiga activates, let him stomp the bots first". That could even become a ritual for the event, a bonding experience for everyone involved.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Kiga approves of the ritual.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
And I have little faith in the developers dismantling Cosmics and creating new open missions. I'm concerned they cannot do that.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Like I said before, I don't think them getting the rewards is an actual issue. The only issue I see is them cluttering up the place, and that's barely an issue. I mean, so what? They get stuff for not doing anything; if you think about it, that happens all the time in this game already, and there are almost no systems in place to prevent it. Why does this suddenly need it.
The objective isn't "prevent leechers". The objective is to improve accessibility. Leechers are a completely different issue; if all content in CO that could potentially be leeched was never created, we wouldn't have a game.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
There could always be a death counter, for e.g. more deaths = bigger penalty on the reward roll. Voila, suddenly support heals/buffs and aggro-draw tank players are valued for helping to keep squishy offensive DPS builds alive.
People accidentally getting credit by just waltzing into the OM without doing much or at the last minute can be prevented with an activity timer. Every time a player leaves the OM area, the timer is reset. It shouldn't be hard to detect if the player just sits around in the player and do nothing or just spam EB. Pets are a little tricky, but then again pets are still significantly more useful than doing nothing or EB spamming.
A vote kick feature would help for alert leechers. Heck, there could even be one for OMs.
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Non-DPS players who have contributed in the fight in ways other than direct DPS deserve that accessibility as much as the DPS'ers do.
Well, normally when someone suggests something, they have an idea of what they'd like to see. But you seem to just throw out random stuff and then give attitude when someone asks for you to clarify what you're asking for.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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So how do healers for e.g. increase the DPS of the team when their usefulness have little to nothing to do with overall DPS? How about dedicated tanks for another e.g.?
See, it's exactly this "DPS or get out" mentality with regards to the system that I have issue with; asserting that people not choosing to go with a DPS build as opposed to playing other types of roles that appeal to them have no business participating, since their "contribution" is questionable.
Bots be damned... if it was nothng but bots standing around nothing would get done.
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In what way do they numerically increase DPS on their own however when they stop to do stuff to support the DPS'ers? It's a DPS race after all isn't it? No DPS = Not contributing, since this is exactly what the system is really about and doesn't recognize other forms of contribution.
You're contradicting yourself. You've already acknowledged the fact that those roles are useful hence valuable. Now all of a sudden it's get Cryptic to do X to make them valuable?
Healers and tanks have always been downright valuable in something like Gravitar rampage. I have no idea what you're talking about.
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I believe they do. Rewards are an integral part of MMOs, and players should have access to attempting to acquire them whenever they feel like it, without any other player having any power to prevent them from making that attempt.
And no, players being required to have specific builds is not an acceptable stipulation of being able to make a feasible attempt. A core aspect of the game is customization. Everyone else in the thread seems to have figured it out.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It's because of the way you're asking.
If you don't know what I'm suggesting, then just don't participate in the thread. You don't even know if you agree or disagree with what I'm saying.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I do understand what you're saying. I just think you're wrong.
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Out of all the MMOs that I play, NONE of them reward people based on challenges. Except World of Tanks, for you get your money and xp based how well you do, but even then the difference is not that much. Otherwise the vast majority of MMOs do NOT have challenge based rewards. They have random drops that just depend on if you show up and do something during the fight other than damage. I don't know what mmos you play, but the mmos that I play do not have the reward system you say they do. So no, challenged based rewards are not an integral part of mmos.
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My main DPS character has to block often in Gravitar because my HP / Defense is not all that high and melee is unloved. When I block or pop conviction, that's damage I'm not doing. Just having an AoPM healer would be awesome because I could attack with a lot less blocking and healing plus the extra stats would mean never needing to use my EB for laser sword. Maybe even having faster cool downs for my spike attacks.
On a Cosmic, not needing to worry about healing myself means I could focus on damage. Not being the tank is also nice. I've been in F&I, pulled aggro from Frosty for a second and died to the insta Frost Dagger to the face. Tanking Blaze is doable for me but requires I be able to see her to block the rimefire. Not that easy when she's covered with 50 power effects and Cryptic decided to be rude by not including a charge up graphic by her name. It much easier if I don't have to tank either of them because blocking and death lowers my dps.
Considering the lack of needing a team in most things, I don't see the downside to having a few instances where rewards are based on a team and actually needing a team. Yes, that means the solo person who walks up isn't going to get anything decent, but they can also group up next time. Not much of a fan of the 'A' for effort reward system for permanent content.
Agreeing with the timer part doesn't count then? And asking for clarity on your position doesn't count as participation either? It is very rare when people tell me what I think that they are correct. You are not that rare person who gets it right.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
I doubt either will change.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
They actually aren't. CO was the first MMO I encountered where this system was used.
Well I did mention several times making it so the top few contributors get a higher chance. Shutting out everyone other than a single group is, for me at least, way below less than ideal.
I mean, what happens if 6 of the people who are against this change show up to do Kiga. Does the 6th guy just leave? If he doesn't, he can stay and participate for a chance at nothing. I think that 6th guy should get something, and no, I don't think it's acceptable to deny him any reward whatsoever because "somebody might leech at some other point in time".
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
All MMOs have some method of challenge-based content gating. It's not like a good build for Kigatilik is more challenging or restrictive than a good build for soloing Andrith.
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It's pretty demoralizing when someone who did nothing gets the shiny over someone who put an effort in. I don't think people who contribute very little shouldn't get anything (frankly the base rewards on many encounters need some tweaking as they're sad), I just don't think they should have a shot at the top-end rewards.
How would you differentiate between a dps build using only an EB and a low damage support build.
When CO has been changed enough so that build A never does 10 times as much damage as build B...
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That would not differentiate between someone just using EB vs someone that is playing support. And there are plenty of ways to support people without being on a team. I still remember when my support toon came in 3rd place in points on takofanes just because I illumiinated takos. Illumination, one of the most underrated powers that when used right is very powerful. Most of my support toons have it. Now, does that mean that my damage rocks as support to? No, its doesn't. My damage as support tends to suck and is very low. Being on a team will not help the system differentiate between someone who built their eb to be strong and only ebs vs a support toon.
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Which can't be measured like dps can be. Thus you can't reward people on world bosses or events by damage or healing (not all support are healing).
Its not an exploit, its the way illumination was made, it debuffs the target for 5 minutes, and everyone that attacks the target gets the mend buff which is a small heal over time. An exploit a few people burning bosses down in seconds using plasma beam before it was nerfed hard.
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Doesn't say anything about individual efforts though, and thus the reward system would not work right. The way the game works, each person has to be scored individually and not by team, otherwise a single team can have 4 leechers and one super dps. Can't happen this way, would be a bad idea.
You must have a hatred for support for saying something like that. Scoring can't take into account your support in a team, thus it would not reward the support ever. And healing someone is not an exploit. I mean seriously, how can you even suggest that healing is an exploit? Thats like saying breathing in life is cheating. And in truth, everyone needs healing at some point during most fights with the aoe damage that comes out. So, no exploit there. And NEVER again suggest that healing people is an exploit.
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That right there made me realize that you are a troll. Fact: Most freeforms need healing, the god builds are a minority. Thus external healing is greatly appreciated. I don't think you have played CO at all. You sound like a troll spouting nonesense at this point. Go play alerts and tell me again how external healing is not needed by freeforms, you'll find that most do need external healing. I am claiming victory in this argument due to your lack of knowledge of what you are talking about. And the fact that you think that most freeforms are god builds that can survive on their own. Just because there is a few god builds out there doesn't mean the rest of the game doesn't need healing, stop hating on support.
Also, I've been playing since the betas. I have over 90 toons and plenty of 40s. Never again assume someone hasn't played this game just because you don't know what you are talking about.
Double standard. Leeches are leeches, period. To call someone a leech means that they contributed zero to the fight. You've made it clear that you support this DPS race mechanic to drive away the leeches, but somehow it's okay for a player to bring one just because they're playing a super DPS FOTM build?
This pretty much affirms what I've been suspecting so far; Optimal DPS freeform builds seem to be the only ones relevant to you and somehow should be the baseline for content to scale to. Your comment about Gravitar being soloable aka FOTM build toe-to-toe fight while what everyone else in the fight seem to be good for is just providing res's seems to also affirm it.
Technically only one build template is required for CO. Technically a freeform DPS that is superior in firepower, survivability and aggro-management is the only build required. Every other template is unnecessary.
However that's only because of inherent game design issues. The robust freeform system allows players to make extremely self-sufficient builds, but at the same time support powers geared towards everything else but DPS are in the same system. The game obviously encourages all manner of builds and playstyles. There's no obvious prerequisite for any content in the game to force players into bring only certain builds to play the content.
Kiga only cares about damage. The reward system isn't capable of detecting if someone has spent their time healing to keep people alive, assuming they need it in the first place. It's a DPS race. It has decided that if you bring a optimal DPS build into the fight, you're contributing. Support builds that spend their time doing anything but optimal DPS aren't really contributing, if anything at all. That's what the reward system has decided. It's a bullcrap reward system and there should be better ways of going about rewards without caring about damage.
TL:DR = If you're going to have a MMO that offers various build options and playstyles, don't just gate content so that it favors only one build type, or at least make the effort to.
As for the assertion that it's some kind of MMO reward gating standard, I've never seen it in other MMOs that I've played.
Ok, so most people do need heals in an alert but since you're mentioning freeforms I would add that they get those heals, in most situations, from themselves. It's true support has it's place but, IMO, the majority of that place is what Panta and some others have been saying. If you're healing me then that's less time I have to worry about damage, healing, and aggro management. I can simply let loose if I'm a DPS which is you helping me improve my overall DPS. If we're in a team, which in this situation we kinda should be unless it's Rampages and their weird "team-up hates actual teams setup", and you're doing this for the others as well...then we're doing quite well. Heck, if you can juggle all of that and toss out a moderate amount of DPS(example: Conduit) then that's just more icing on the combat cake there.
So, let's try not to jump the game to the problem words that pop up on the forums from time to time like "Troll", "Hating", and "Fact" because you have to be very very careful with those....or something like this happens.
Also, in a game like CO(which isn't exactly the benchmark on difficulty) it's not so much that these mythical "god mode builds" are so vastly superior than the majority of the playerbase so much that many players just aren't that good. That's what I usually take away from your suggestion to observe alerts. I've seen 15+ random theme builds absolutely crush 40s in alerts. Call it "Nature of The MMO Beast" if you will. Also, since they didn't get much mention, I've seen ATs do the same. They might have some questionable and redundant overall build designs but if a person puts the time into learning them they can get some pretty solid results in most cases.
Final Thought: Just a small tip. I wouldn't be so eager to go knowledge vs. knowledge with Panta if I were you. :cool:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Also, hypothetical situation here since I don't honestly see any of this really changing except maybe to get opinions and such out for future stuff, but let's say this actually had the quad contrib system that WAR used to have. Let's say Damage, Healing, Incoming Damage, and Objective Contributions did exist(not that much of a stretch since NW has those nice lair scoreboards for the majority of this). Then the tank get's his tank contrib. The healer gets their healer contrib. The DPSer...doesn't really notice the difference. The person(especially on something like the Destroid OM) actually gets rewarded for doing all the work to spawn the Mega D in the 1st place. The EB Leecher...waaay down there on the list. Honestly, the only thing really missing from this equation would likely be a mechanic where the system measures "prevented damage"(debuffs/mitigation on others) as a contrib factor. Even then, if I'm pouring massive heals into a full hp target then I should not expect credit for that. Just like if I shoot something and miss...it shouldn't play dead.
Honestly, WAR had alot going against it(well, it's dead now) but it's overall OM(PQ) mechanics were something I've always kinda wished could have been "borrowed" for OMs in CO.
Course, if this ever did become a reality I suspect someone would take to the forums and start tossing around "Forced Trinity" and other complaints.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
This right here sums up my opinion pretty much
/Agreed.
Sorry, he pissed me off big time. I was not calling him a troll because he disagreed with me, its because all his knowledge that he brought forth was false and easily discarded. Thats something that trolls do in arguments, they bring up false info. Its obvious he doesn't know anything about the game outside his own super-self reliant built toon, otherwise he would not even spout half the nonesense that he spouted.
That's why I want to know who's on this DPS bus, so I can get out of their Alert teams and not "drag them down" with my "useless" non-optimized builds. Instead, I'll just go solo missions with Captain Bananahammock or Pandemic or Spider-Bat or...
And I'll resign myself to never knowing where Kiga or Qwyjibo or Teliosaur spawn, or when, because obviously I'm not good enough at the game to be permitted to see them.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Theme = Theme.
*Unless your theme is to actually be the hero in the locker in Fight Club. In that case, carry on and enjoy your gaming experience however you so choose.
xydaxyda: And the perks. On Alert may take our drops but it will never take...OUR PERKS. <charges off to battle> :biggrin:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
I've fought kiga and the monkey, only on the pts though, fun fights they are. Whenever I try to find them on live I never see them.
For an instance, there's a simple measure: did the team succeed at the objective, and if so, how fast and smooth was it? For open world it's tougher, but 'how much damage did your team do' is one of the better proxies.
The other half of it, however, is choice. You shouldn't get anything (except good feelings for being generous) out of helping people who didn't ask for your help. Yes, that means solo support doesn't get points.
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They're not. Certainly not a big enough issue that it could justify requiring players to accuse one another of being useless and then using that belief to shut those players out.
What's next? iLevels? DPS meters? -50 dkp?
I'll state this again: Top three dpsers get a slightly increased chance at reward, every other person on the list gets an equal chance, and their own separate roll. Simple, and cuts out the BS. Nobody needs to decide if anybody is worth enough to get a chance at the rewards.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
So... a support build needs to be on a team. But the team it joins is going to do lower damage than when they'd have another dps build "which has consequences".
Are you really not seeing the problem there?
Also claiming people "are doing it wrong", is quite the elitist attitude.
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