The thing with CO is it is very easy for the most part, then you hit the upper stuff like Rampages and those are much, much harder and more demanding than regular Alerts.
I agree, they need to put some time in filling the gap so people around here who feel like they're a dwarf suddenly being put up against giants have some intermediate content to build their self esteem with.
And most of those who ask for more difficult content don't remember how it was. Or maybe they don't care about how it is for new players. New players are always needed if the game is to stay alive.
I'm not saying that new players should sleepwalk through content, but I do think that it's a bad idea to have seasonal content they can't participate meaningfully in.
I have a hard time trying to characterize "new players" as mentally handicapped children.... clearly not everyone feels the same way.
Are you getting the whole "challenge doesn't mean dying a lot" theme here yet? Come on guy, you're clever, you get it, stop pretending you don't just so you can continue to pretend you're crusading against the big bad "make you die a lot" faction that doesn't actually exist u.u
Hehe, I di 3 missions in MC this morning that were level 37, as a level 34 Grimoire. I didn't get KOed once. But it wasn't easy and I had to be very careful and avoid accidentally aggroing multiple groups at once.
For some reason or other the Trey Kings Supervillains hit harder than the Nephilim did... kinda weird....
Blood Moon does not interest me in the least bit, and I'm relieved that I'm not the only one. I have no idea why it even resurfaces under the guise of content. I mean, for Christ's sake, the Blood Moon is still dropping pre-alert gear.
It offers me absolutely nothing of value. Nada. Zip. Dark Aura? Titles? Whatever, nothing worth doing this content for. It just strikes me as something to do out of sheer boredom. I have always honestly thought that Blood Moon was just shoved into the game to make it appear like someone is making things happen and paying attention to the ugly stepchild. Now that we've seen Mechanon missions, I actually believe that there's someone there, and it helps.
Honestly, Takofanes has been the same ugly cheesy-looking guy since he first showed up. Why can't he get an updated look? Why can't this ENTIRE thing be updated.
Still, as it stands, it doesn't do anything for me. It just means it's red when I go outside.
Did you actually read what I typed? Are you still making the connection between "challenge" and "dying a lot" even though I stated in the most clear language possible that that is a false connection?
The one where I've played the series since Demon Souls so by the time Dark Souls 2 rolled around I was well beyond that "newbie phase" of dying a bunch due to not knowing the deal. I tore through Dark Souls 2 taking out entire swaths of content in my first playthrough without a single death... and yet, I still consider it challenging content.
Are you getting the whole "challenge doesn't mean dying a lot" theme here yet? Come on guy, you're clever, you get it, stop pretending you don't just so you can continue to pretend you're crusading against the big bad "make you die a lot" faction that doesn't actually exist u.u
It isn't really a false connection. Always in the past till today what's considered "challenge" in video games has always involved clear negative consequences when the challenge isn't surpassed, be it dying / losing lives / game overs / wasting more quarters. The more challenging and difficult certain aspects of the game are, the higher the chances of facing those consequences. Difficult games where people die / lose often have always been called challenging games. The only question is if the challenge is fair and not due to unbalanced game design or bad or even unresponsive controls.
You rarely dying or not even once in Dark Souls for eg. is just due to the fact that you have the skill level to meet the game's challenge level. You don't breeze through the game effortlessly but you can cope with the difficulty. But even then I'm willing to bet that you did die a couple of times in the previous Demon Souls when you were brand new to the game and running through it the first time. I don't think it's off the mark if anyone who dies a lot in these type of games decides to call them challenging for that reason alone.
Anyway the point is somewhat moot since these days games have a habit of having "save points". No matter how difficult the game is and no matter many times you die / lose you can just reload the previous save point as many times as you want. CO's respawn is in the same vein.
Solar: Don't take this the wrong way but I came into your post with the lil history lesson at the beginning and was like,"Aww, I remember that." Then it spiraled into "Not everyone has blah blah blah" and "We must stand up against the vile elitists who would plague the poor weak newbies and murder our game." You may not have meant it this way but...ugh..it read that way to me at least.
Truth be told this process is pretty cut and dry simple. I have an opinion that's mine. You have an opinion that's yours. Neither of us speak for anyone more than ourselves unless another person replies and is like,"Oh yeah, I totally agree," and then that's 2 people...and so on. Nobody in here speaks for the majority on this. Nobody in here speaks for the weak newbie masses crying out in the night for changes to this game to or not to happen. IMO, If I had to guess a newbie hasn't played Bloodmoon before so they wouldn't know the difference between one of the older versions or a new one...because they're new players to this game.
Also, newbies are a vital part of the lifeblood of most MMOs, this one included, but that does not automatically mean they're all horrible. CO isn't super hard. People can read. Some people do alot of homework before they dive into a MMO. Some people simply learn well in the field, so to speak. Some people get repeat-o-facerolled and then ask for help/advice. Of course, this does trickle down through the catagories of people until it reaches "Paint Huffer" status but that, IMO, is also not the majority. The only thing newbies have in common is that they're new to Champions Online. Beyond that, all bets are off.
And most of those who ask for more difficult content don't remember how it was. Or maybe they don't care about how it is for new players. New players are always needed if the game is to stay alive.
I know you know you know better than this, Wing. You stood with me and many others on the roof of that hospital in 2009, waiting on a 6 hour spawntime Tako OM. We spread out to hit the undead heroes in teams of 1-10+ with some people soloing them and some people finding joy in just bringing obscene numbers against them. When the OM spawned we would all rush madly to take out the Doomlord. Even the little Muni/Gad without a single OP power on their build managed(that was Cross then) did well enough and we won. The hard part about that BM was the waiting and the not getting the AF(which I didn't get to drop in 142 OM runs..I got it on like the 4th OM run of the next BM). The fun were the conversations, jokes, goofing off, random dueling, perks, titles, devices, recipes, and multiple trips to the tailor.
Thing is, that's how it was. On Alert raised the bar on the players but very little has changed with the event itself(The OM CD isn't 6h anymore, the AF is BoE, The Recipes are gone, and sometimes Tako actually gets out of his chair). IMO the real difficulty with the OM these days is that, which has been seen in this thread in places, new players will show up all smiles and wide eyes...and the vets might show up..or might bother at all. This is why new stuff needs added to it IMO(still love to have that actual skeleton costume set in the drop table <hint><hint>). IMO it's not about making BM the "Mechanon but he's a Mummy Now Facerolls of Dooooooom Event"so much as adding a few new drops/perks/lores to the mix and bringing the event, at the very least, in line with On Alert.
Spinny: After rereading what I typed it is entirely possibly I did not phrase or split it correctly to accurately get my point accross. I likely should have split the bit about Smough and Ornstein and that learning process since I was attempting to list that as an example of how some of this "OMG it's impossible" content just needs the time investment to learn and overcome...which, IMO, leads to a larger sense of accomplishment. I did not think that post would shock you in the least to be honest and am sorry if it came off as calling you "dumb." That was not my intention.
I agree, they need to put some time in filling the gap so people around here who feel like they're a dwarf suddenly being put up against giants have some intermediate content to build their self esteem with.
1. I agree with this statement...
2. ...until it gets to the bit about being a dwarf. What's wrong with being a dwarf?
cybersoldier1981: I am mostly in your boat but like it or not, bored with it or not, it's still content. It's still an event. It could use a facelift. It definately needs some new drops added to it(the anniversary got more). Toss on an actual Skeleton Costume Set in the drop tables, a snazzy title, and an item that grants the juggle emote and I'll show up with halloween costume and a trick-or-treat bag to play along.
The problem is that around here too many people associate "challenge" with "dying a lot". I rarely die in Dark Souls, but I still consider it a challenging game. I guess I'll just say that it's telling that those people make that connection, rather than the connection someone like me makes.
The problem when comparing a Souls Series game to, lets say CO, is that well..you don't have many moves to actually worry about in a Soul Series especially during a boss fight.
Unless it's Gwyn or you want to look really fancy on the Pursuer, parrying is out. Which limits you to normal attack, strong attack blocking and dodgerolling. You're looking at about four buttons max out of that which actually lends itself to challenging gameplay.
Hell I managed to take out The Rotten with an unlevelled warrior and an un-upgraded Fire Longsword held in both hands. However that one moment taught me a few things. You see the timing on The Rottens swings actually matches a lot of timing on others bosses swings. The Fume Knights ultra-greatsword swing has the same timing, Vendricks swings have the same timing.
Heck I've since done every boss in both Dark Souls 1 (including DLC bosses) and Dark Souls 2 (not including DLC bosses) using nothing but dual Caestus (lets just say no shield teaches you parrying real quick).
I actually have a reputation on the Eurogamer forums as "the guy who punched everything to death".
I ran Dark Souls 1 so much that I went through insane challenge runs, Whips only (no parry or riposte in Dark Souls 1 and hideously low damage), Shield only (Bonewheel shield says hello...and once again no backstab or riposte), Soul level 1 (actually quite easy). I could get a Fire weapon +8 after fighting only 3 bosses.
In Dark Souls 2 I can craft the Meat Cleaver at a low enough Soul Memory to successfully invade in Forest of the Fallen Giants.
All this comes about through knowledge, through learning how I could break the hell out of the game through forums (thank you Eurogamer Dark Souls guys), through watching videos, through playing with builds. To me that was part of the challenge, not only working my way through content, not only through crazy challenge runs but seeing just how much I could further push my knowledge about the game itself.
You just can't break CO like you can a Souls Series game, MMOs don't reward knowledge to the same level, it doesn't matter how good you are, you'll never be able to solo a lair boss 30 levels higher than you just because you know their moveset. The game just plain isn't suited to that kind of playstyle.
Equipment isn't usually an upgraded in a Souls game, it's a choice opener, there is no real objectively better weapon (well alright sometimes their is...) just different movesets.
In a Souls Series game you're not really juggling a rotation, like you are in say CO. Despite the more 'action' orientated combat the very MMO nature works against it, people have to be allowed to sit there and spam their rotations for DPS. You can't get the same challenging play as a Souls series game in CO, it just isn't physically possible.
Because of this, sadly, it means that devs have to rely on that old MMO staple. Slapping insta-kill moves on bosses (oh and those telling people to 'block'...yeah you can't actually block those attacks unless your a tank, so much for the one mechanic being completely ignored), AoE Spam and just upping the number of hitpoints a boss has.
Truth of the matter is as much as I'd love an MMO to run with the Souls style of gameplay ("so that dude solo that boss at level 1 while naked using only his bare fists....good on him, he got a boss soul...that everyone gets...") it never will because for some reason MMOs have to go out of their way to appeal to 'raiders', to people that grind gear for stats (and not for Fashionsouls reasons...) because the skinner box approach is the easiest to implement.
Personally that's the problem I find with on alert costume drops, they're too rare to really act like say, the Warlock mask in Dark Souls 2. They're an item you know will drop eventually, it may take you 10-20 bonfire ascetics to get it but you know you can. The on-alert costume pieces are more akin to needing 100-200 bonfire ascetics for that same thing, turning an otherwise fun little side jaunt to get an item into a dull, boring, drawn out, tedious grind.
If they were common enough that they dropped more often but rare enough that it could encourage repeated runs, I think it would probably be more worthwhile.
This long, rambling rant is now at a close, if any of it made sense, then I'm glad. time to take my sleep deprived self to bed.
I know you know you know better than this, Wing. You stood with me and many others on the roof of that hospital in 2009, waiting on a 6 hour spawntime Tako OM.
I was referring more to the Anniversary OM, where anyone below 30 is going to contribute almost nothing at all because they're 1) dealing maybe 1-2 damage with a heavy hitting power to the level 60 bosses 2) taking forever to regain energy with Energy Builders due to level difference and 3) dying to every single attack that hits them due to level difference.
Simply so that a group of 40+ level 40s don't mince up the bosses in 5 seconds, when that should have been balanced with the Scary Monster mechanic instead of blank level 60s.
New players tend to not have level 40 characters, so they can't really participate meaningfully in the main part of the Anniversary event.
Tacoface isn't level 60 (or at least wasn't last I checked), so even level 20s can feel like they help out here.
To be fair, catering open events to brand new players who can't even bother to level cap ONE character is a bit foolish. Missions like this *should* be geared to the established player with a main at level cap. Hell, the entire issue with alerts is that they're designed to be a huge chunk of our content, and yet they sidekick our main characters DOWN 10 levels to play them.
It's simple logic. If it's a world event because of a holiday or some big happening, you should be gearing it to your main players. If that puts off the new low levels? Well then, you've got a mission now, huh? Better hit cap so you can help out on the next one.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
So your beeing surprised that they are not investing anything back into the game and just reusing old stuff? I just came back after beeing away for 2 years and they have done next to nothing with it. So move on or accept that they will grab your money and move it elseware and not putting it back where you want it. What was build years ago is what you have and will ever get out of this. Paying them will not change that. They invest in other platforms and keeps this barely alive to get some extra cash for that. It is a perfectly normal buisness decision.
I can tell you've been gone 2 years...since that's pretty much the last time that argument was relevant in all honesty. Easy joke aside, stuff has happened. Google "Cryptic North" for starters. Search the forums. Look around. Sure it would be neat if BM updated some(although not everyone here agrees with that) but events have been updated this year so, for me, until this event is over I'm not ruling anything out. Now, don't get me wrong...I don't think it'll be anything on the scale of alot of the requests of this thread but I have a feeling "something" is coming.
In the meantime why not take an Earth, Wind, NEW Telepathy, Laser Sword, or Automaton(AT) toon though some Steel Crusade for some Costume Unlocks?
Great so many of my Pantheon still haven't actually gone into the crypts..
IT would be great to collect those items.. I only have Amazing Grace reflexes and Tiger Claws.
The mechanic saves alot of TAco chasing for the areas that hurt travel powers for newer heros. I liked the Clarence chase all over town just as much.. I received the Zombie Foxbat drop Westside because i dint run right off for another spawn i checked area for loot drops.
Comments
I agree, they need to put some time in filling the gap so people around here who feel like they're a dwarf suddenly being put up against giants have some intermediate content to build their self esteem with.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I have a hard time trying to characterize "new players" as mentally handicapped children.... clearly not everyone feels the same way.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
For some reason or other the Trey Kings Supervillains hit harder than the Nephilim did... kinda weird....
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My characters
It offers me absolutely nothing of value. Nada. Zip. Dark Aura? Titles? Whatever, nothing worth doing this content for. It just strikes me as something to do out of sheer boredom. I have always honestly thought that Blood Moon was just shoved into the game to make it appear like someone is making things happen and paying attention to the ugly stepchild. Now that we've seen Mechanon missions, I actually believe that there's someone there, and it helps.
Honestly, Takofanes has been the same ugly cheesy-looking guy since he first showed up. Why can't he get an updated look? Why can't this ENTIRE thing be updated.
Still, as it stands, it doesn't do anything for me. It just means it's red when I go outside.
Can we get new Halloween-themed costumes, maybe?
It isn't really a false connection. Always in the past till today what's considered "challenge" in video games has always involved clear negative consequences when the challenge isn't surpassed, be it dying / losing lives / game overs / wasting more quarters. The more challenging and difficult certain aspects of the game are, the higher the chances of facing those consequences. Difficult games where people die / lose often have always been called challenging games. The only question is if the challenge is fair and not due to unbalanced game design or bad or even unresponsive controls.
You rarely dying or not even once in Dark Souls for eg. is just due to the fact that you have the skill level to meet the game's challenge level. You don't breeze through the game effortlessly but you can cope with the difficulty. But even then I'm willing to bet that you did die a couple of times in the previous Demon Souls when you were brand new to the game and running through it the first time. I don't think it's off the mark if anyone who dies a lot in these type of games decides to call them challenging for that reason alone.
Anyway the point is somewhat moot since these days games have a habit of having "save points". No matter how difficult the game is and no matter many times you die / lose you can just reload the previous save point as many times as you want. CO's respawn is in the same vein.
Truth be told this process is pretty cut and dry simple. I have an opinion that's mine. You have an opinion that's yours. Neither of us speak for anyone more than ourselves unless another person replies and is like,"Oh yeah, I totally agree," and then that's 2 people...and so on. Nobody in here speaks for the majority on this. Nobody in here speaks for the weak newbie masses crying out in the night for changes to this game to or not to happen. IMO, If I had to guess a newbie hasn't played Bloodmoon before so they wouldn't know the difference between one of the older versions or a new one...because they're new players to this game.
Also, newbies are a vital part of the lifeblood of most MMOs, this one included, but that does not automatically mean they're all horrible. CO isn't super hard. People can read. Some people do alot of homework before they dive into a MMO. Some people simply learn well in the field, so to speak. Some people get repeat-o-facerolled and then ask for help/advice. Of course, this does trickle down through the catagories of people until it reaches "Paint Huffer" status but that, IMO, is also not the majority. The only thing newbies have in common is that they're new to Champions Online. Beyond that, all bets are off.
I know you know you know better than this, Wing. You stood with me and many others on the roof of that hospital in 2009, waiting on a 6 hour spawntime Tako OM. We spread out to hit the undead heroes in teams of 1-10+ with some people soloing them and some people finding joy in just bringing obscene numbers against them. When the OM spawned we would all rush madly to take out the Doomlord. Even the little Muni/Gad without a single OP power on their build managed(that was Cross then) did well enough and we won. The hard part about that BM was the waiting and the not getting the AF(which I didn't get to drop in 142 OM runs..I got it on like the 4th OM run of the next BM). The fun were the conversations, jokes, goofing off, random dueling, perks, titles, devices, recipes, and multiple trips to the tailor.
Thing is, that's how it was. On Alert raised the bar on the players but very little has changed with the event itself(The OM CD isn't 6h anymore, the AF is BoE, The Recipes are gone, and sometimes Tako actually gets out of his chair). IMO the real difficulty with the OM these days is that, which has been seen in this thread in places, new players will show up all smiles and wide eyes...and the vets might show up..or might bother at all. This is why new stuff needs added to it IMO(still love to have that actual skeleton costume set in the drop table <hint><hint>). IMO it's not about making BM the "Mechanon but he's a Mummy Now Facerolls of Dooooooom Event"so much as adding a few new drops/perks/lores to the mix and bringing the event, at the very least, in line with On Alert.
Spinny: After rereading what I typed it is entirely possibly I did not phrase or split it correctly to accurately get my point accross. I likely should have split the bit about Smough and Ornstein and that learning process since I was attempting to list that as an example of how some of this "OMG it's impossible" content just needs the time investment to learn and overcome...which, IMO, leads to a larger sense of accomplishment. I did not think that post would shock you in the least to be honest and am sorry if it came off as calling you "dumb." That was not my intention.
1. I agree with this statement...
2. ...until it gets to the bit about being a dwarf. What's wrong with being a dwarf?
cybersoldier1981: I am mostly in your boat but like it or not, bored with it or not, it's still content. It's still an event. It could use a facelift. It definately needs some new drops added to it(the anniversary got more). Toss on an actual Skeleton Costume Set in the drop tables, a snazzy title, and an item that grants the juggle emote and I'll show up with halloween costume and a trick-or-treat bag to play along.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
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My characters
The problem when comparing a Souls Series game to, lets say CO, is that well..you don't have many moves to actually worry about in a Soul Series especially during a boss fight.
Unless it's Gwyn or you want to look really fancy on the Pursuer, parrying is out. Which limits you to normal attack, strong attack blocking and dodgerolling. You're looking at about four buttons max out of that which actually lends itself to challenging gameplay.
Hell I managed to take out The Rotten with an unlevelled warrior and an un-upgraded Fire Longsword held in both hands. However that one moment taught me a few things. You see the timing on The Rottens swings actually matches a lot of timing on others bosses swings. The Fume Knights ultra-greatsword swing has the same timing, Vendricks swings have the same timing.
Heck I've since done every boss in both Dark Souls 1 (including DLC bosses) and Dark Souls 2 (not including DLC bosses) using nothing but dual Caestus (lets just say no shield teaches you parrying real quick).
I actually have a reputation on the Eurogamer forums as "the guy who punched everything to death".
I ran Dark Souls 1 so much that I went through insane challenge runs, Whips only (no parry or riposte in Dark Souls 1 and hideously low damage), Shield only (Bonewheel shield says hello...and once again no backstab or riposte), Soul level 1 (actually quite easy). I could get a Fire weapon +8 after fighting only 3 bosses.
In Dark Souls 2 I can craft the Meat Cleaver at a low enough Soul Memory to successfully invade in Forest of the Fallen Giants.
All this comes about through knowledge, through learning how I could break the hell out of the game through forums (thank you Eurogamer Dark Souls guys), through watching videos, through playing with builds. To me that was part of the challenge, not only working my way through content, not only through crazy challenge runs but seeing just how much I could further push my knowledge about the game itself.
You just can't break CO like you can a Souls Series game, MMOs don't reward knowledge to the same level, it doesn't matter how good you are, you'll never be able to solo a lair boss 30 levels higher than you just because you know their moveset. The game just plain isn't suited to that kind of playstyle.
Equipment isn't usually an upgraded in a Souls game, it's a choice opener, there is no real objectively better weapon (well alright sometimes their is...) just different movesets.
In a Souls Series game you're not really juggling a rotation, like you are in say CO. Despite the more 'action' orientated combat the very MMO nature works against it, people have to be allowed to sit there and spam their rotations for DPS. You can't get the same challenging play as a Souls series game in CO, it just isn't physically possible.
Because of this, sadly, it means that devs have to rely on that old MMO staple. Slapping insta-kill moves on bosses (oh and those telling people to 'block'...yeah you can't actually block those attacks unless your a tank, so much for the one mechanic being completely ignored), AoE Spam and just upping the number of hitpoints a boss has.
Truth of the matter is as much as I'd love an MMO to run with the Souls style of gameplay ("so that dude solo that boss at level 1 while naked using only his bare fists....good on him, he got a boss soul...that everyone gets...") it never will because for some reason MMOs have to go out of their way to appeal to 'raiders', to people that grind gear for stats (and not for Fashionsouls reasons...) because the skinner box approach is the easiest to implement.
Personally that's the problem I find with on alert costume drops, they're too rare to really act like say, the Warlock mask in Dark Souls 2. They're an item you know will drop eventually, it may take you 10-20 bonfire ascetics to get it but you know you can. The on-alert costume pieces are more akin to needing 100-200 bonfire ascetics for that same thing, turning an otherwise fun little side jaunt to get an item into a dull, boring, drawn out, tedious grind.
If they were common enough that they dropped more often but rare enough that it could encourage repeated runs, I think it would probably be more worthwhile.
This long, rambling rant is now at a close, if any of it made sense, then I'm glad. time to take my sleep deprived self to bed.
Hahahahahaha.
That's hilarious man.
Simply so that a group of 40+ level 40s don't mince up the bosses in 5 seconds, when that should have been balanced with the Scary Monster mechanic instead of blank level 60s.
New players tend to not have level 40 characters, so they can't really participate meaningfully in the main part of the Anniversary event.
Tacoface isn't level 60 (or at least wasn't last I checked), so even level 20s can feel like they help out here.
It's simple logic. If it's a world event because of a holiday or some big happening, you should be gearing it to your main players. If that puts off the new low levels? Well then, you've got a mission now, huh? Better hit cap so you can help out on the next one.
RIP Caine
In the meantime why not take an Earth, Wind, NEW Telepathy, Laser Sword, or Automaton(AT) toon though some Steel Crusade for some Costume Unlocks?
Welcome Back. :biggrin:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
IT would be great to collect those items.. I only have Amazing Grace reflexes and Tiger Claws.
The mechanic saves alot of TAco chasing for the areas that hurt travel powers for newer heros. I liked the Clarence chase all over town just as much.. I received the Zombie Foxbat drop Westside because i dint run right off for another spawn i checked area for loot drops.