I have one simple question to ask you and I honestly do not mean it to sound insulting so please take that into consideration...are you terrible at CO? I ask because I'm just wanting a point of reference for this particular viewpoint.
Before they answer this baffling question could I ask you a question? Are you so good at CO that you can solo the Mechanon event? Because if not, why the heck would it matter how good one individual is if it takes a group of 40 or 50 people to succeed? Unless you're good enough to handle the event on your own then you're going to need to rely on others.
I ran that damn event nearly two dozen times, twice I managed to get into zone one, and one of those two times the Mega Destroyers didn't spawn. Of my twenty two attempts I succeeded five times. I have doubles of the spider action figure to show for eight or ten hours I spent running it. Well that and disappointment and maybe a little bit of resentment.
Now admittedly I haven't payed to win the game, I mostly have heroic gear, the highest level mod I have slotted is a level 6, and the few vehicles I own were bought from the auction house and are strictly for transportation. I've never ranked very high on the leader boards but neither do I expect to. Those spots are reserved for those that invest real money into the game.
I have invested a lot of time into the game and now have 44 level 40s, but a good deal of my time on events like these are spent trick or treating, beating the undead heroes, and fighting werewolves or werewolf hunters. Taking down Tako has never been particularity important to me and I tend to think that anyone that believes that this is what the Halloween even is about are probably missing out. I'm glad that Tako isn't particularly hard as it means that I don't feel compelled to help out. If Mechanon hadn't been so impossibly hard I wouldn't have felt bad ignoring people in zone asking for people to help.
Ello Gary, let me see if I can answer that for you.
Are you so good at CO that you can solo the Mechanon event?
Guess which event this thread isn't about?
Now admittedly I haven't payed to win the game, I mostly have heroic gear, the highest level mod I have slotted is a level 6
Mostly the same here except I tend to use 4-5 and save 6s to make 7s which is as high as I would likely ever really go to be honest. My main just got some 7s because...No real reason.
and the few vehicles I own were bought from the auction house and are strictly for transportation.
I have a Fire Ant with some 6s(No Biosteels so I was pretty much immune to that change) and such but I don't bring it to events because I choose not to. I have some other random vehicles here and there which I use on toons who cannot fly...or they sit in a vault somewhere.
I've never ranked very high on the leader boards but neither do I expect to.
I can usually hit between the teens and higher. This was discussed in the previous post of mine.
Those spots are reserved for those that invest real money into the game.
If you mean my sub and costume sets then I guess I'm your man for that investing money bit.
I have invested a lot of time into the game and now have 44 level 40s, but a good deal of my time on events like these are spent trick or treating, beating the undead heroes, and fighting werewolves or werewolf hunters. Taking down Tako has never been particularity important to me and I tend to think that anyone that believes that this is what the Halloween even is about are probably missing out. I'm glad that Tako isn't particularly hard as it means that I don't feel compelled to help out. If Mechanon hadn't been so impossibly hard I wouldn't have felt bad ignoring people in zone asking for people to help.
I think you have more 40s than I do but it's kinda close(and I'm too lazy to check right now to be honest). I used to do those kinds of things with this event but, as previously mentioned, I got bored and these days I barely touch the event at all unless there's a new shiny I don't have(a Skeleton Costume Set for drops would be lovely BTW). My friends and I used to help out friends by not showing up to the Tako OM when the AF used to be BoP after a few of us "won" our second one. Since that has changed, I will show up to help when I am asked by friends. Considering my near legendary luck with MMO RNG....I showed up to any Mechanon OM I could get into. I did not "win." I killed him until he "submitted"(or felt sorry for me and just went,"Ok, here. Take the stuff and just go away.")
So, to tie all of this together into a neat lil package. I'm not a min/maxer GOD who can solo everything in this game on a whim. I am apparently just good enough at this game to not call for easy stuff to be left alone completely or complain when something different or, heaven forbid, difficult is attempted/introduced(I'm not saying you have done this at all, Gary, just so we're clear). I am just a person presenting an opinion on a forum and I asked a person with a differing opinion for some additional information as an attempt to better understand their particular viewpoint.
P.S. If they removed the timer from the Mechanon Event OM and I had about 45-55 minutes. I'm not saying I could solo it.....but I sure would give it a try or two just to see. :biggrin:
Cryptic has proven again and again that it is simply awful when it comes to open missions in terms for massive groups. That goes for the new team as much as the old. There are people out there that can balance and design to such a scale, but Cryptic has refused to hire or simply recruit the willing.
I've mentioned it hundreds of times as to how I think events and to a greater extent rampages should be designed. Focus on designing content for smaller groups rather than whole zones. Cryptic isn't ever going to get it right until they've proven themselves by stopping their false advertising. This goes for the original, hyped up implementation of how Open Missions were originally supposed to be and also announcing how long newer content is going to be.
People saying, "Losing isn't fun, I don't care how simple and shallow a fight is as long as I win." as if that has anything to do with wanting something new.
Same old people saying, "I'd rather have the same ol' same ol because new might mean broken."
Same old people randomly talking about how they're the "average player" and elitists are trying to ruin the game for them.... then quickly being proven wrong by average players with unoptimized toons stating that they too find the game childishly easy (old folks mozying along to say that they don't have time to play a game that isn't childishly easy because of their "personal commitments").
Folks using the fact that they didn't win something as evidence that it's "broken" or "badly designed".
Someone making the claim that gamers-at-large don't enjoy challenging content... makes sure to cite no proof whatsoever, but presents it as factual anyway.
People claiming content is challenging... but giving no example of how it actually is challenging (pretend super hard that the event can't be won just by showing up and flipping on energy builder. completely neglect that dying repeatedly doesn't affect chance of victory one bit). Revert to accusations of elitism and power-building.
People in an uproar over the unfair score-based loot reward system.... people quickly point out that no such score-based loot reward system exists anymore.
Face it guys, if you like action-filled, exciting gameplay, then CO isn't for you. CO is the baby toy of MMOs - just a simple thing with lots of colors that's easy to handle, and the only time there's a problem is when too many hands are trying to grab the same toy. If you like the costume editor, then hey that's fine... come here, play dress-up, but go somewhere else for your action and excitement. The freeform system is neat, but there's nothing meaningful to use it on if you're the type of player who enjoys gameplay, rather than customization for the sake of customization.
In the end, it's better that you stop playing the game. A lot of the "issues" pointed out in this thread would be solved if there was never more than one active zone, and if all the players who actually want a challenge would just leave, then the devs could focus on making braindead guaranteed-win content and nobody would complain.
Imagine how much content they could churn out if all they actually had to do was take current encounters and reskin them? You know all the "losing isn't fun" people wouldn't care, because that's all they want... a new coat of paint now and then. Help the devs out... stop logging in.
All you "losing isn't fun" and "I don't have time for engaging mechanics" people, you just keep on trucking.
I'm not worried so much about challenges in games these days as I am worried about fun. But fun for me is something new and different. Like my drug addiction, cocaine gets boring after a while, so I like to try something new every few weeks.
I'm not worried so much about challenges in games these days as I am worried about fun. But fun for me is something new and different. Like my drug addiction, cocaine gets boring after a while, so I like to try something new every few weeks.
The problem is that around here too many people associate "challenge" with "dying a lot". I rarely die in Dark Souls, but I still consider it a challenging game. I guess I'll just say that it's telling that those people make that connection, rather than the connection someone like me makes.
What if deaths had impact like in Recruiting Drive? Like every 5 heroes summoned another Doomlord and Tako can't be hurt until all Doomlords are defeated.
Also, I personally would like to see the Undead Heroes raised to Legendary Status. I mean the Supervillain thing doesn't really work anymore for us.
Would be really nice if the Tako Event was also changed so that you had another step so that it went like this:
[ ] X/100 Turakians Defeated
Takofanes has summoned his undead servants! Defeat the risen heroes!
[ ] X/13 Undead Heroes Defeated
Takofanes has arrived! Protect the spirits of the heroes and drive him back!
[ ] Takofanes Defeated [ ] Don't let more than 5 spirits fall. [ ] Defeat Doomlords to remove Takofanes's protective shield.
AWWWW CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE! DON'T YOU DARE. BE SOUR. CLAP FOR YOUR NIGHTMARE AND FEEEEEEEEEEEL THE POWAAAAAAH!
What if deaths had impact like in Recruiting Drive? Like every 5 heroes summoned another Doomlord and Tako can't be hurt until all Doomlords are defeated.
Yeah, I'd be giving the whole fight a miss - that'd be Mechanon and the Liberated Mega-Destroids (great band name!) all over again. Except wothout the possibility of keeping the Mega-Ds from being liberated (or, in this instance, keeping the Doomlords from spawning in the first place).
If your goal is to make sure that the Tako fight, like the Mechanon fight, was restricted to only the very highest-level toons of the most experienced players who'd laid out the most cash for equipment, that would be exactly the path to follow.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Really? >_> Doomlords go down quick from my experience. They're only Legendaries, and piss poor examples of that. Plus they'd only spawn upon the death of 5 heroes and Tako doesn't have an AoE nuke. It'd just encourage tactics beyond Zerg rushing.
Also. Cash for equipment? *Flexes Heroics and Armadillo Secondaries* Don't see any here, and I do amazingly.
AWWWW CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE! DON'T YOU DARE. BE SOUR. CLAP FOR YOUR NIGHTMARE AND FEEEEEEEEEEEL THE POWAAAAAAH!
And if characters and players of all experience levels are permitted to participate, as is the intent, how long exactly do you think it'll take for a Legendary to drop five toons?
Again, we're scaling with the idea of the best and brightest fighting, not every hero who happens to be passing by. You want a Rampage like this, be my guest - that's why Rampages are set up the way they are, so you can't join one until you're a high enough level that you can be assumed to have learned tactics and strategies. Open-world events like this should be scaled so that the lvl-15 AT who's barely even heard of "Heroic gear" has a chance of participating and affecting the outcome (in a positive fashion, not being one-shotted and contributing to the Big Bad's defense). It shouldn't be a cakewalk for the lowbies - but they shouldn't be totally excluded, either.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
As I've said elsewhere, please buff the thirteen. Since On Alert, they've been walkovers.
That is what I wanted--just something to make the bosses in Blood Moon tougher than now. To make them keep up with gear changes since On Alert.
My first year at Blood Moon, there was no guarantee of winning every Undead Hero fight. You needed a crew of 10-20 heroes, and you had to pay attention.
Just give them an overall stat buff--that would be enough.
And if characters and players of all experience levels are permitted to participate, as is the intent, how long exactly do you think it'll take for a Legendary to drop five toons?
Again, we're scaling with the idea of the best and brightest fighting, not every hero who happens to be passing by. You want a Rampage like this, be my guest - that's why Rampages are set up the way they are, so you can't join one until you're a high enough level that you can be assumed to have learned tactics and strategies. Open-world events like this should be scaled so that the lvl-15 AT who's barely even heard of "Heroic gear" has a chance of participating and affecting the outcome (in a positive fashion, not being one-shotted and contributing to the Big Bad's defense). It shouldn't be a cakewalk for the lowbies - but they shouldn't be totally excluded, either.
Because regular alerts TOTALLY don't put you against Legendaries. Oh no.
And let's forget the open mission early on in the game that has you fight a Legendary. Totally doesn't exist in Burnside. Let's also forget VIPER-X in City Center who can be taken down at-level by a good chunk of ATs.
I think someone's confusing a "lack of experience" with being braindead. The tutorial built into CO tells you pretty much everything you need to know for most encounters. Skip it and don't pay attention? Your own damn fault for sucking.
AWWWW CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE! DON'T YOU DARE. BE SOUR. CLAP FOR YOUR NIGHTMARE AND FEEEEEEEEEEEL THE POWAAAAAAH!
As I've said elsewhere, please buff the thirteen. Since On Alert, they've been walkovers.
Agreed.
Despite all this talk, I'm sure most will participate in zombie bashing...because it can be fun. (Or annoying as hell if they are everywhere...which sometimes...they are.)
I've always wanted to see an expansion of Blood Moon Event, perhaps take the zombie aspect and spread it to Canada...where NECRULL and Rictus both are...as well as a whole bunch of magic and demons etc. Same with Vibora. I think if there was more content/events that encompassed more zones than just MC, it would give it a sense of inclusiveness instead of just having those zones entirely empty.
And if characters and players of all experience levels are permitted to participate, as is the intent, how long exactly do you think it'll take for a Legendary to drop five toons?
Again, we're scaling with the idea of the best and brightest fighting, not every hero who happens to be passing by. You want a Rampage like this, be my guest - that's why Rampages are set up the way they are, so you can't join one until you're a high enough level that you can be assumed to have learned tactics and strategies. Open-world events like this should be scaled so that the lvl-15 AT who's barely even heard of "Heroic gear" has a chance of participating and affecting the outcome (in a positive fashion, not being one-shotted and contributing to the Big Bad's defense). It shouldn't be a cakewalk for the lowbies - but they shouldn't be totally excluded, either.
As someone who participated in the last one at level 12... yeah. lowbies tend to get curb stomped and they don't even know what happened.
There's an npc scaling factor so NPC base damage scales a bit faster with level than PCs (this is to make up for them not getting additional powers and gear upgrades), but it should probably be altered in general. I think that's used in skull scaling as well, so fixing that would improve a lot of things. However, changing it would have rather far-reaching effects on the game (anyone below some level would find it easier; anyone above would find it harder. What that level is would depend on how the scaling factor was picked).
How exactly to you provide a "challenge" for content that's intended to be played by low to high level ranges?
You can't really. Naturally the higher level players will have a much easier time due to more developed builds. The lower levels would be the ones to have to struggle a little, but Blood Moon is still definitely doable by them. If they have problems solo'ing the crypts, they've always intended to be team instances, so best to find a team and sidekick up if necessary for them.
As for the reward system, the RNG makes sense. People have already complained about the old system where rewards are based on DPS / heal scores and favoring toons dedicated to those roles.
The only other alternative is to grant everyone involved in the open mission the same rewards, but that only invites exploitation; letting someone just get a few hits in, then stand around and do nothing, be considered participating nonetheless and still get rewarded while everyone else puts in the actual effort.
I can't think of a system other than RNG that would be considered fair in this case.
Buxom: Take off your tin foil hat and drink some decaf. You're better than this.
Spinny: Nice post but I think I'll stick around. Not quite ready to entirely give up on CN yet. Also, I picked up Dark Souls when it was free on XBLIVE a while back. Nice game, I don't die much either really...except for Smough and Ornstein. Those two took some deaths to get past. Of course, that is just the cost of "learning the fight" and, as shocking as this might sound, it lead to a "rewarding experience" for me when I did finally put those two in the dirt.
Then I suppose it's a positive thing that he's no longer around to reinvent those arguments.
Challenge doesn't need to constantly one shot you.
Just like the Dark Souls references starting to pop up into this thread, challenging content should not repeatedly 1-shot you UNLESS there's a way to avoid such results a decent amount of the time. This is why, which I'm likely going to say again in response to another post in just a momment, it is my belief that the block station being removed from the tutorial was a bad idea and should be returned ASAP.
Thundrax: Agreed.
Jon: I do not think this would be the Mechanon Event all over again IF LvL X is used instead of "Hey, we like LvL 60 because it's a big number! What? It causes unforseen issues? Bah, go with it anyways!"(Which is Cryptic's fault for the initial design and it would have been lovely if CN had addressed it...among other "issues" which had been previously reported).
who'd laid out the most cash for equipment
Could we please drop this angle? It's simply, in my experience and that of other friends, not really true. Also, Jon, yes I do actually think a LvL 15 has a shot at something like this...but only if LvL X (or the marginally more annoying task of finding someone who will sidekick you) is in play.
The tutorial built into CO tells you pretty much everything you need to know for most encounters.
Well, except they took out the block station. I believe alot of new players would benefit from this and, from my own observations, some players would benefit from a refresher course. Another bit of the issue with this is that On Alert has made heroes so powerful without updating alot of the mobs that they do not feel the "NEED" to block....so when that need actually does arise...they're paste.
Raven: However unlikely it is....I do like this idea. Expanding older events to be more on a "global scale" is an idea, IMO, with merit. Perhaps for Bloodmoon 2015, after it's had some time to grow, we could have "Zombies in Spaaaaace" on Gateway.
As someone who participated in the last one at level 12... yeah. lowbies tend to get curb stomped and they don't even know what happened.
I know this is going to sound somewhat trivial but there really is a pretty huge difference between a LvL 12 and a LvL 15. Since I do not see an immediate solution for this(other than gaining those 3 pretty easy to get levels) perhaps a warning about how "this content is for everyone but heroes under level 15 might wish to seek out other heroes to team up with to help the city!"
Zed: Free candy indeed. :biggrin:
Jenny: I actually mostly agree with your post. The only other alternative I could think of would be yet another token system. Once that gives everyone that [Thank You for Showing Up. You're all Special Token Box] reward BUT, in addition, gives something like a [You Done Good Back There Kid Token Box] and an [All-Star Token Box] reward which are just more tokens to the higher peformers. I'm not saying this is ideal. It's merely an alternative. <shrugs>
Overall though, honestly, this is a cute thread and all but unless a magical giant surprise box shows up on PTS on Monday, I kinda think none of this really matters. BeamMoon 2014 will go on as schedules and some people, like myself, will just do something else....after I maybe pick up some snazzy titles for newer toons who weren't around last go, of course.
People saying, "Losing isn't fun, I don't care how simple and shallow a fight is as long as I win." as if that has anything to do with wanting something new.
Same old people saying, "I'd rather have the same ol' same ol because new might mean broken."
Same old people randomly talking about how they're the "average player" and elitists are trying to ruin the game for them.... then quickly being proven wrong by average players with unoptimized toons stating that they too find the game childishly easy (old folks mozying along to say that they don't have time to play a game that isn't childishly easy because of their "personal commitments").
Folks using the fact that they didn't win something as evidence that it's "broken" or "badly designed".
The thing with CO is it is very easy for the most part, then you hit the upper stuff like Rampages and those are much, much harder and more demanding than regular Alerts. Alerts can be facerolled for the most part, but Rampages demand more attention (which is good) but can also be hamstrung by poor play or a pick-up group (which is bad). That doesn't make them broken, but there should probably be a lockout of level 35-39 characters for them, so people have complete builds.
I thought the Mechanon event was cool but it had flaws, including disparity of teammates (Zone 1 teams were basically farming it, while Zones 2-4 had to patch together teams), the timer, the strange attribution of level 60 to Mechanon and so on. It wasn't super enjoyable but I'd do it once or twice more next time, if it repeats.
Someone making the claim that gamers-at-large don't enjoy challenging content... makes sure to cite no proof whatsoever, but presents it as factual anyway.
While it is getting late and I couldn't find specific quotes, I do remember Matt Miller (CoX's former lead) saying that making challenging content is difficulty because you need to appeal to casuals, hardcores, etc. You also want people running your content and if it proves too tedious or difficult people will just go for the easier way of doing things, at least until you solve the puzzle.
I do know from experience in CoX (which was a pretty easy game) they had to nerf some of he endgame stuff because people just had too much difficulty on a variety of non-maxed alts.
Face it guys, if you like action-filled, exciting gameplay, then CO isn't for you. CO is the baby toy of MMOs - just a simple thing with lots of colors that's easy to handle, and the only time there's a problem is when too many hands are trying to grab the same toy. If you like the costume editor, then hey that's fine... come here, play dress-up, but go somewhere else for your action and excitement. The freeform system is neat, but there's nothing meaningful to use it on if you're the type of player who enjoys gameplay, rather than customization for the sake of customization.
All you "losing isn't fun" and "I don't have time for engaging mechanics" people, you just keep on trucking.
Losing isn't fun...if there's little chance of winning. Engaging mechanics are another story, Steel Crusade had interesting stuff until the space station part, where I was floating around all the time which was really annoying, even with the self-root. And the respawning pylons were very frustrating to do solo on a low DPS character. But it's meant for a team so...
I don't know if little exists to challenge oneself, can always try soloing some of the lengthier events like Therakiel's lair and so on, or PvP, which is a challenge of its own.
______________________________________________
See me ingame under the following secret identities:
Amelie Layclaire - Lightning and Wind (40) Solution Five - Gadgets and Subterfuge (40) Dodgeball Kara - Support and Ebon Ruin (40) Relentless Pursuit - Fire and Force (35) Rear Window - Homage - Icy Disposition (20) Teaming with @shottymario and hoping to meet you all ingame.
Normally, I say my funny and get the *bleep* out. That said...
{ i'm probably gonna regret this }
Never defeated a crypt boss. Not even once. For me it was like swimming against a riptide.
In the open world, Crusher is still a challenge (for me) <---- points to the for me. I've never taken him down without help. Never had a well equipped Fire Ant II before so I'm expecting he'll be a lot easier if I find myself needing to try him on my own this BM season.
As for the rest of the Thirteen... One or two others seem to have some sort of regen or a like billion HPs that always made 'em too tough for me without help.
And that's it. I'm done talking serious about Halloween.
As it is, once it begins, I'll have just one week to get ALL the perks on ALL my heroes. Perkimon. Gotta catch em all.
How exactly to you provide a "challenge" for content that's intended to be played by low to high level ranges?
The way skull-scaling works is that characters lower level than their target (skull-scaled stuff has a level, it's just hidden) get a net damage buff, higher level characters get a net damage debuff, and creatures get the same sort of bonus against characters. Depending on the value of that buff, it can be easier, harder, or neutral for the low level character.
Currently, that buff doesn't entirely compensate for level differences, so lower levels have more trouble. Changing the values would make it easier for low levels.
The way skull-scaling works is that characters lower level than their target (skull-scaled stuff has a level, it's just hidden) get a net damage buff, higher level characters get a net damage debuff, and creatures get the same sort of bonus against characters. Depending on the value of that buff, it can be easier, harder, or neutral for the low level character.
Currently, that buff doesn't entirely compensate for level differences, so lower levels have more trouble. Changing the values would make it easier for low levels.
Even then, higher level characters are better equipped to deal with the kind of challenge that Blood Moon offers. A net damage debuff isn't much of a setback when you consider that the appropriate builds are able to buff their offensive power. They are also capable of better survivability and better energy management.
Giving a damage buff for a lowbie no matter how high won't really mean much if the character isn't developed enough for at least the level of survivability that a higher level character is capable of. At least lowbies have the opportunity to find a team that has someone who can draw threat and soak up the majority of incoming attacks.
So my point stands. It's simply difficult or not possible to have open mission content to provide an even challenge rating for all level ranges.
How exactly to you provide a "challenge" for content that's intended to be played by low to high level ranges?
Regular alerts seemed to have figured that out. Scary Lvl Monsters are sort of that in reverse. Cryptic seems to be on the right track, they just need to figure out who their average player is.
While it is getting late and I couldn't find specific quotes, I do remember Matt Miller (CoX's former lead) saying that making challenging content is difficulty because you need to appeal to casuals, hardcores, etc. You also want people running your content and if it proves too tedious or difficult people will just go for the easier way of doing things, at least until you solve the puzzle.
Makes me wonder why they would do that. Pick an audience and make the game for them. Dark Souls is a great game, but not for casual players. Diablo 3 is a good time, but not hardcore. Making a game that appeals to everyone doesn't work.
Regular alerts seemed to have figured that out. Scary Lvl Monsters are sort of that in reverse. Cryptic seems to be on the right track, they just need to figure out who their average player is.
don't those work by mutating the player character into a level 30 and scaling everything to that?
Can we have the Cancelled Halloween Dracul Event instead please?
It would be nice to have something New to do
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Can we have the Cancelled Halloween Dracul Event instead please?
It would be nice to have something New to do
If they started working on it now, it might be ready for Halloween next year. The current devs are unlikely to be the ones who initially proposed the Dracul event and there may not even be any usable stuff for them to work off.
In addition to the various GOOD suggestions out there,
The Tako fight should start at top of the hour. Iirc, it doesn't have a timer. However, it should get RESET at 45 minutes after the hour so that it's cleared and ready at the top of the next hour. This is because we've had many an instance where the Tako or Doomlord fight bugged out to unwinnable circumstances.
.
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=- "Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
Even then, higher level characters are better equipped to deal with the kind of challenge that Blood Moon offers.
Sure, but that's simply a function of what the constants are. Given sufficiently high level vs level adjustments, lower levels would come out even, or even ahead.
This is pretty much what I had in mind, but I was thinking of the main reward being based on the performance of the team as a whole in open world events, and perhaps a little extra in the form of tokens or questionite given to the top performers.
I don't think there should be much difference in reward given to the person who did 7k dps as to the person who tried as hard as they could and only did 800 dps.
some, a token amount, but not a lot.
Agreed - the main reward should be based on the performance of the team on the whole.
I don't personally like the way top DPSers are exclusively rewarded for that role. It encourages people away from support roles and toward a very narrow selection of high damage powers/sets for the purposes of the event. I know I prefer to play events on certain characters which aren't necessarily my DPS toons, and it would be nice if they were still in the running for top ticket drops.
Granted, I understand it is difficult to implement a system that rewards effort accordingly, but it could at least be made competitive by using a combined statistic of damage taken / given / threat / healing instead of solely damage.
I was thinking of the main reward being based on the performance of the team as a whole in open world events, and perhaps a little extra in the form of tokens or questionite given to the top performers.
I don't think there should be much difference in reward given to the person who did 7k dps as to the person who tried as hard as they could and only did 800 dps
I dunno, sounds a lil too Hippy Love Fest for my tastes to be honest. I'm not saying give the whole show to the top performers but this kinda falls in close with the "We should always win and there should be no risk of failure", "We should get a participation trophy even if we do manage to lose", and the "I'm a superhero. I should have GODMODE" arguments to me(not saying you specifically but these things appear to be cropping up in places in this thread and the forums recently).
If this is attached to the team then all I need is an amazing build on one toon and 4 alt accounts and I am going to clean house. If anything, this makes it worse IMO than before. It's one thing if I team with friends and we do some aura stacking here and there. It's one thing if we sidekick if the event isn't LvL X(which this one is). It's entirely different if the better player is carrying their team across the finish line regardless of their contribution.
In the basics of storytelling the hero rises up to the challenge and ovecomes it. Now the opposition doesn't always have to me your typical "A Dark God" level threat but the hero does not usually show up, fail all over the place, and get the gold/princess/praise of the people just because, "Well, Sir Tommy, you sure did try." This is a world of superheroes....not Youth League Sports. I'm not against the idea of the [Thank You for Showing Up. You're all Special Token Box] bottom tier reward for participation....but it is what it is in all honesty and I still feel you should contribute to get it. Captain Faceplant gets a box with a small amount of tokens because they got in a few hits for 10-15 seconds each time before they horrifically tasted concrete. In this sense they did contribute...like a DoT. Meanwhile, Ultiman bear up the bad guy.
Now before someone gets all offended let me be perfectly clear that in the scenario presented in this post and the last I'm pretty expecting the [You Done Good Back There Kid Token Box] middle tier reward to fall into my lap most of the time. I might get the green sometimes. I might get the gold one very rarely. I am not saying I am one of the top players. In the world of Captain Faceplant and Ultiman...I'll be playing the part of Lord Above Average.
Yeah, but then again CO cannot provide an even challenge rating for characters of the same level either.
That doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to use the tools available to do the best they can though.
I agree with this but I will also add that when it comes to people of the same level I understand that there are varying levels of actual ability in this game between it's players. That being said, some of this has to fall into the catagory of a little bit of the good old fashioned "RTFM" stuff. Some people go Matrix on this game and open it like a book of swirling math. They see it all and get the maximium results. Some people see some of it but are of the opinion it's a video game where "Old Cryptic" made the PvE so only a certain level of effort is required(this is where I happily reside), some people run into genuine challenge in this world and IMO vets should help these newbies if they so wish it, some people are just too lazy to care and they're not very good(RTFM time), and some people appear to have gotten their powers by a freak accident involving huffing radioactive paint fumes.
IMO, and as horrible as it may sound, there has to be a line between balancing towards the middle of player ability...and not being penalized by the paint huffers. I will admit though that the actual implimentation of such a system is likely far more complex than the conversation about such a thing.
I don't personally like the way top DPSers are exclusively rewarded for that role. It encourages people away from support roles and toward a very narrow selection of high damage powers/sets for the purposes of the event. I know I prefer to play events on certain characters which aren't necessarily my DPS toons, and it would be nice if they were still in the running for top ticket drops.
<waves hands> Good news, your wish has been granted....years ago. The scoreboard is for one "top ticket drop" which is a marginally(at best) device that lets you fly. It's completely skipable. Everything else is random. The scoreboard, for the most part, is for personal reference, amusement, and to be completely ignored if that's your choice. In the current system damage and healing do count towards contribution.
Now, on the other hand, I'm not saying this system could not be improved. The NW Dungeon Scoreboards(one of the few not scary/horrible things in NW IMO), does measure:
It has a page on the scoreboard for each of these. It grants perks and titles tied into these. It is a superior system IMO and something we could benefit from having in CO. Having said that, it's still the walldressings for personal amusement(with perks and titles now so...Upgrade) and doesn't, even in NW, contribute to the rewards and who gets them. In dungeons it's still a team so you still have to roll those dice. I'd still like to see this in CO though.
don't those work by mutating the player character into a level 30 and scaling everything to that?
That is probably pretty close to the magic of how alerts work. My point was, Cryptic has some grasp on how to do stuff like that, it just needs to be tweaked for open world VS the average player at a certain level.
IMO, and as horrible as it may sound, there has to be a line between balancing towards the middle of player ability...and not being penalized by the paint huffers. I will admit though that the actual implimentation of such a system is likely far more complex than the conversation about such a thing.
No, it's not horrible to say "stop catering to the lowest common denominator". That kind of design is just an endless spiral down until the devs give up and make everyone take no damage ever and one shot the entire zone with a single EB hit.
Rummaging through the database to find out how the average level 40 is geared, if that character is FF or AT, which characters are played the most, and all of the other data Cryptic would need to pull would be boring and tedious but not all that complex.
I would fly to the bosses and enjoy a battle and get a good reward. In some cases early on I even got repeatedly facerolled by a gate boss until I learned timing and so on and last time I still saw newer players get dropped, but people learn and you know what? They get decent loot out of their efforts. Not everyone has a tricked out 40, vehicle, or even a freeform.
Calling this "autowin" is elitist plain and simple. I have seen people get dropped by gate bosses. Heck I've seen players looking for help with gate bosses.
The anniversary saw a bunch of new people playing the game, asking questions, learning the game, and yet they couldn't compete easily for Mechanon since most were brand new. Now a few weeks later, most of those new players would be in the sweet spot to enjoy an event like this and here come the elite wanting to change things yet again and screw all that new lifeblood.
Might as well then take the game behind the shed and shoot it if you're going to just screw all new lower-level players.
That is probably pretty close to the magic of how alerts work. My point was, Cryptic has some grasp on how to do stuff like that, it just needs to be tweaked for open world VS the average player at a certain level.
It already is implemented, skull scaling has very similar effects to SKing everyone to a fixed level (which is what Alerts do). However, the difference between a level 40 and a level 11 in an Alert is still pretty obvious, and the same thing goes for skull scaling.
And most of those who ask for more difficult content don't remember how it was. Or maybe they don't care about how it is for new players. New players are always needed if the game is to stay alive.
I'm not saying that new players should sleepwalk through content, but I do think that it's a bad idea to have seasonal content they can't participate meaningfully in.
It already is implemented, skull scaling has very similar effects to SKing everyone to a fixed level (which is what Alerts do). However, the difference between a level 40 and a level 11 in an Alert is still pretty obvious, and the same thing goes for skull scaling.
There's the spec trees chosen, gear (random green/blue mission rewards vs. Nemesis Heirloom vs Mercenary vs Heroic etc.) and even if two players are the same level with similar gear, their power selection can make a huge difference in how well they perform. And even if two players are given identical characters, their performance can vary based on player skill and playstyle preference.
yeah. Dying a lot isn't fun, not in a game about superheroes.
I like to say, I'm a Hero, not a Zergling. and it's true.
Challenge doesn't need to constantly one shot you.
Did you actually read what I typed? Are you still making the connection between "challenge" and "dying a lot" even though I stated in the most clear language possible that that is a false connection?
and wait, rarely die in dark souls? what strange universe have you come from?
The one where I've played the series since Demon Souls so by the time Dark Souls 2 rolled around I was well beyond that "newbie phase" of dying a bunch due to not knowing the deal. I tore through Dark Souls 2 taking out entire swaths of content in my first playthrough without a single death... and yet, I still consider it challenging content.
Are you getting the whole "challenge doesn't mean dying a lot" theme here yet? Come on guy, you're clever, you get it, stop pretending you don't just so you can continue to pretend you're crusading against the big bad "make you die a lot" faction that doesn't actually exist u.u
Yeah, I'd be giving the whole fight a miss - that'd be Mechanon and the Liberated Mega-Destroids (great band name!) all over again. Except wothout the possibility of keeping the Mega-Ds from being liberated (or, in this instance, keeping the Doomlords from spawning in the first place).
If your goal is to make sure that the Tako fight, like the Mechanon fight, was restricted to only the very highest-level toons of the most experienced players who'd laid out the most cash for equipment, that would be exactly the path to follow.
Jon you need to have more confidence in your own abilities. I highly doubt you're the helpless "noob" you pretend to be for the sake of argument u.u
Buxom: Take off your tin foil hat and drink some decaf. You're better than this.
Spinny: Nice post but I think I'll stick around. Not quite ready to entirely give up on CN yet. Also, I picked up Dark Souls when it was free on XBLIVE a while back. Nice game, I don't die much either really...except for Smough and Ornstein. Those two took some deaths to get past. Of course, that is just the cost of "learning the fight" and, as shocking as this might sound, it lead to a "rewarding experience" for me when I did finally put those two in the dirt.
I'm going to assume you didn't think this would be shocking to me because that would be dumb, and I don't like to assume that people are dumb u3u
Comments
Before they answer this baffling question could I ask you a question? Are you so good at CO that you can solo the Mechanon event? Because if not, why the heck would it matter how good one individual is if it takes a group of 40 or 50 people to succeed? Unless you're good enough to handle the event on your own then you're going to need to rely on others.
I ran that damn event nearly two dozen times, twice I managed to get into zone one, and one of those two times the Mega Destroyers didn't spawn. Of my twenty two attempts I succeeded five times. I have doubles of the spider action figure to show for eight or ten hours I spent running it. Well that and disappointment and maybe a little bit of resentment.
Now admittedly I haven't payed to win the game, I mostly have heroic gear, the highest level mod I have slotted is a level 6, and the few vehicles I own were bought from the auction house and are strictly for transportation. I've never ranked very high on the leader boards but neither do I expect to. Those spots are reserved for those that invest real money into the game.
I have invested a lot of time into the game and now have 44 level 40s, but a good deal of my time on events like these are spent trick or treating, beating the undead heroes, and fighting werewolves or werewolf hunters. Taking down Tako has never been particularity important to me and I tend to think that anyone that believes that this is what the Halloween even is about are probably missing out. I'm glad that Tako isn't particularly hard as it means that I don't feel compelled to help out. If Mechanon hadn't been so impossibly hard I wouldn't have felt bad ignoring people in zone asking for people to help.
Guess which event this thread isn't about?
Mostly the same here except I tend to use 4-5 and save 6s to make 7s which is as high as I would likely ever really go to be honest. My main just got some 7s because...No real reason.
I have a Fire Ant with some 6s(No Biosteels so I was pretty much immune to that change) and such but I don't bring it to events because I choose not to. I have some other random vehicles here and there which I use on toons who cannot fly...or they sit in a vault somewhere.
I can usually hit between the teens and higher. This was discussed in the previous post of mine.
If you mean my sub and costume sets then I guess I'm your man for that investing money bit.
I think you have more 40s than I do but it's kinda close(and I'm too lazy to check right now to be honest). I used to do those kinds of things with this event but, as previously mentioned, I got bored and these days I barely touch the event at all unless there's a new shiny I don't have(a Skeleton Costume Set for drops would be lovely BTW). My friends and I used to help out friends by not showing up to the Tako OM when the AF used to be BoP after a few of us "won" our second one. Since that has changed, I will show up to help when I am asked by friends. Considering my near legendary luck with MMO RNG....I showed up to any Mechanon OM I could get into. I did not "win." I killed him until he "submitted"(or felt sorry for me and just went,"Ok, here. Take the stuff and just go away.")
So, to tie all of this together into a neat lil package. I'm not a min/maxer GOD who can solo everything in this game on a whim. I am apparently just good enough at this game to not call for easy stuff to be left alone completely or complain when something different or, heaven forbid, difficult is attempted/introduced(I'm not saying you have done this at all, Gary, just so we're clear). I am just a person presenting an opinion on a forum and I asked a person with a differing opinion for some additional information as an attempt to better understand their particular viewpoint.
P.S. If they removed the timer from the Mechanon Event OM and I had about 45-55 minutes. I'm not saying I could solo it.....but I sure would give it a try or two just to see. :biggrin:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
I've mentioned it hundreds of times as to how I think events and to a greater extent rampages should be designed. Focus on designing content for smaller groups rather than whole zones. Cryptic isn't ever going to get it right until they've proven themselves by stopping their false advertising. This goes for the original, hyped up implementation of how Open Missions were originally supposed to be and also announcing how long newer content is going to be.
Of course, this isn't ever going to happen. Ever.
People saying, "Losing isn't fun, I don't care how simple and shallow a fight is as long as I win." as if that has anything to do with wanting something new.
Same old people saying, "I'd rather have the same ol' same ol because new might mean broken."
Same old people randomly talking about how they're the "average player" and elitists are trying to ruin the game for them.... then quickly being proven wrong by average players with unoptimized toons stating that they too find the game childishly easy (old folks mozying along to say that they don't have time to play a game that isn't childishly easy because of their "personal commitments").
Folks using the fact that they didn't win something as evidence that it's "broken" or "badly designed".
Someone making the claim that gamers-at-large don't enjoy challenging content... makes sure to cite no proof whatsoever, but presents it as factual anyway.
People claiming content is challenging... but giving no example of how it actually is challenging (pretend super hard that the event can't be won just by showing up and flipping on energy builder. completely neglect that dying repeatedly doesn't affect chance of victory one bit). Revert to accusations of elitism and power-building.
People in an uproar over the unfair score-based loot reward system.... people quickly point out that no such score-based loot reward system exists anymore.
Face it guys, if you like action-filled, exciting gameplay, then CO isn't for you. CO is the baby toy of MMOs - just a simple thing with lots of colors that's easy to handle, and the only time there's a problem is when too many hands are trying to grab the same toy. If you like the costume editor, then hey that's fine... come here, play dress-up, but go somewhere else for your action and excitement. The freeform system is neat, but there's nothing meaningful to use it on if you're the type of player who enjoys gameplay, rather than customization for the sake of customization.
In the end, it's better that you stop playing the game. A lot of the "issues" pointed out in this thread would be solved if there was never more than one active zone, and if all the players who actually want a challenge would just leave, then the devs could focus on making braindead guaranteed-win content and nobody would complain.
Imagine how much content they could churn out if all they actually had to do was take current encounters and reskin them? You know all the "losing isn't fun" people wouldn't care, because that's all they want... a new coat of paint now and then. Help the devs out... stop logging in.
All you "losing isn't fun" and "I don't have time for engaging mechanics" people, you just keep on trucking.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The problem is that around here too many people associate "challenge" with "dying a lot". I rarely die in Dark Souls, but I still consider it a challenging game. I guess I'll just say that it's telling that those people make that connection, rather than the connection someone like me makes.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Also, I personally would like to see the Undead Heroes raised to Legendary Status. I mean the Supervillain thing doesn't really work anymore for us.
Would be really nice if the Tako Event was also changed so that you had another step so that it went like this:
[ ] X/100 Turakians Defeated
Takofanes has summoned his undead servants! Defeat the risen heroes!
[ ] X/13 Undead Heroes Defeated
Takofanes has arrived! Protect the spirits of the heroes and drive him back!
[ ] Takofanes Defeated
[ ] Don't let more than 5 spirits fall.
[ ] Defeat Doomlords to remove Takofanes's protective shield.
If your goal is to make sure that the Tako fight, like the Mechanon fight, was restricted to only the very highest-level toons of the most experienced players who'd laid out the most cash for equipment, that would be exactly the path to follow.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Also. Cash for equipment? *Flexes Heroics and Armadillo Secondaries* Don't see any here, and I do amazingly.
Again, we're scaling with the idea of the best and brightest fighting, not every hero who happens to be passing by. You want a Rampage like this, be my guest - that's why Rampages are set up the way they are, so you can't join one until you're a high enough level that you can be assumed to have learned tactics and strategies. Open-world events like this should be scaled so that the lvl-15 AT who's barely even heard of "Heroic gear" has a chance of participating and affecting the outcome (in a positive fashion, not being one-shotted and contributing to the Big Bad's defense). It shouldn't be a cakewalk for the lowbies - but they shouldn't be totally excluded, either.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Why is it hard to believe? Dark Souls isn't that bad.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
That is what I wanted--just something to make the bosses in Blood Moon tougher than now. To make them keep up with gear changes since On Alert.
My first year at Blood Moon, there was no guarantee of winning every Undead Hero fight. You needed a crew of 10-20 heroes, and you had to pay attention.
Just give them an overall stat buff--that would be enough.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Because regular alerts TOTALLY don't put you against Legendaries. Oh no.
And let's forget the open mission early on in the game that has you fight a Legendary. Totally doesn't exist in Burnside. Let's also forget VIPER-X in City Center who can be taken down at-level by a good chunk of ATs.
I think someone's confusing a "lack of experience" with being braindead. The tutorial built into CO tells you pretty much everything you need to know for most encounters. Skip it and don't pay attention? Your own damn fault for sucking.
Agreed.
Despite all this talk, I'm sure most will participate in zombie bashing...because it can be fun. (Or annoying as hell if they are everywhere...which sometimes...they are.)
I've always wanted to see an expansion of Blood Moon Event, perhaps take the zombie aspect and spread it to Canada...where NECRULL and Rictus both are...as well as a whole bunch of magic and demons etc. Same with Vibora. I think if there was more content/events that encompassed more zones than just MC, it would give it a sense of inclusiveness instead of just having those zones entirely empty.
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Agreed.
Power creep has been ongoing for player characters while events such as Bloodmoon remain very static.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
FREE CANDY! :biggrin:
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You can't really. Naturally the higher level players will have a much easier time due to more developed builds. The lower levels would be the ones to have to struggle a little, but Blood Moon is still definitely doable by them. If they have problems solo'ing the crypts, they've always intended to be team instances, so best to find a team and sidekick up if necessary for them.
As for the reward system, the RNG makes sense. People have already complained about the old system where rewards are based on DPS / heal scores and favoring toons dedicated to those roles.
The only other alternative is to grant everyone involved in the open mission the same rewards, but that only invites exploitation; letting someone just get a few hits in, then stand around and do nothing, be considered participating nonetheless and still get rewarded while everyone else puts in the actual effort.
I can't think of a system other than RNG that would be considered fair in this case.
Buxom: Take off your tin foil hat and drink some decaf. You're better than this.
Spinny: Nice post but I think I'll stick around. Not quite ready to entirely give up on CN yet. Also, I picked up Dark Souls when it was free on XBLIVE a while back. Nice game, I don't die much either really...except for Smough and Ornstein. Those two took some deaths to get past. Of course, that is just the cost of "learning the fight" and, as shocking as this might sound, it lead to a "rewarding experience" for me when I did finally put those two in the dirt.
Then I suppose it's a positive thing that he's no longer around to reinvent those arguments. Just like the Dark Souls references starting to pop up into this thread, challenging content should not repeatedly 1-shot you UNLESS there's a way to avoid such results a decent amount of the time. This is why, which I'm likely going to say again in response to another post in just a momment, it is my belief that the block station being removed from the tutorial was a bad idea and should be returned ASAP.
Thundrax: Agreed.
Jon: I do not think this would be the Mechanon Event all over again IF LvL X is used instead of "Hey, we like LvL 60 because it's a big number! What? It causes unforseen issues? Bah, go with it anyways!"(Which is Cryptic's fault for the initial design and it would have been lovely if CN had addressed it...among other "issues" which had been previously reported). Could we please drop this angle? It's simply, in my experience and that of other friends, not really true. Also, Jon, yes I do actually think a LvL 15 has a shot at something like this...but only if LvL X (or the marginally more annoying task of finding someone who will sidekick you) is in play.
Well, except they took out the block station. I believe alot of new players would benefit from this and, from my own observations, some players would benefit from a refresher course. Another bit of the issue with this is that On Alert has made heroes so powerful without updating alot of the mobs that they do not feel the "NEED" to block....so when that need actually does arise...they're paste.
Raven: However unlikely it is....I do like this idea. Expanding older events to be more on a "global scale" is an idea, IMO, with merit. Perhaps for Bloodmoon 2015, after it's had some time to grow, we could have "Zombies in Spaaaaace" on Gateway.
I know this is going to sound somewhat trivial but there really is a pretty huge difference between a LvL 12 and a LvL 15. Since I do not see an immediate solution for this(other than gaining those 3 pretty easy to get levels) perhaps a warning about how "this content is for everyone but heroes under level 15 might wish to seek out other heroes to team up with to help the city!"
Zed: Free candy indeed. :biggrin:
Jenny: I actually mostly agree with your post. The only other alternative I could think of would be yet another token system. Once that gives everyone that [Thank You for Showing Up. You're all Special Token Box] reward BUT, in addition, gives something like a [You Done Good Back There Kid Token Box] and an [All-Star Token Box] reward which are just more tokens to the higher peformers. I'm not saying this is ideal. It's merely an alternative. <shrugs>
Overall though, honestly, this is a cute thread and all but unless a magical giant surprise box shows up on PTS on Monday, I kinda think none of this really matters. BeamMoon 2014 will go on as schedules and some people, like myself, will just do something else....after I maybe pick up some snazzy titles for newer toons who weren't around last go, of course.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
The thing with CO is it is very easy for the most part, then you hit the upper stuff like Rampages and those are much, much harder and more demanding than regular Alerts. Alerts can be facerolled for the most part, but Rampages demand more attention (which is good) but can also be hamstrung by poor play or a pick-up group (which is bad). That doesn't make them broken, but there should probably be a lockout of level 35-39 characters for them, so people have complete builds.
I thought the Mechanon event was cool but it had flaws, including disparity of teammates (Zone 1 teams were basically farming it, while Zones 2-4 had to patch together teams), the timer, the strange attribution of level 60 to Mechanon and so on. It wasn't super enjoyable but I'd do it once or twice more next time, if it repeats.
While it is getting late and I couldn't find specific quotes, I do remember Matt Miller (CoX's former lead) saying that making challenging content is difficulty because you need to appeal to casuals, hardcores, etc. You also want people running your content and if it proves too tedious or difficult people will just go for the easier way of doing things, at least until you solve the puzzle.
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/7274/Endgame.html
He does make the point here that sandbox games are probably the cooler type of challenging/endgame stuff since it's all player-driven, kinda like PvP in a way.
I do know from experience in CoX (which was a pretty easy game) they had to nerf some of he endgame stuff because people just had too much difficulty on a variety of non-maxed alts.
Losing isn't fun...if there's little chance of winning. Engaging mechanics are another story, Steel Crusade had interesting stuff until the space station part, where I was floating around all the time which was really annoying, even with the self-root. And the respawning pylons were very frustrating to do solo on a low DPS character. But it's meant for a team so...
I don't know if little exists to challenge oneself, can always try soloing some of the lengthier events like Therakiel's lair and so on, or PvP, which is a challenge of its own.
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Never defeated a crypt boss. Not even once. For me it was like swimming against a riptide.
In the open world, Crusher is still a challenge (for me) <---- points to the for me. I've never taken him down without help. Never had a well equipped Fire Ant II before so I'm expecting he'll be a lot easier if I find myself needing to try him on my own this BM season.
As for the rest of the Thirteen... One or two others seem to have some sort of regen or a like billion HPs that always made 'em too tough for me without help.
And that's it. I'm done talking serious about Halloween.
As it is, once it begins, I'll have just one week to get ALL the perks on ALL my heroes. Perkimon. Gotta catch em all.
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Currently, that buff doesn't entirely compensate for level differences, so lower levels have more trouble. Changing the values would make it easier for low levels.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Even then, higher level characters are better equipped to deal with the kind of challenge that Blood Moon offers. A net damage debuff isn't much of a setback when you consider that the appropriate builds are able to buff their offensive power. They are also capable of better survivability and better energy management.
Giving a damage buff for a lowbie no matter how high won't really mean much if the character isn't developed enough for at least the level of survivability that a higher level character is capable of. At least lowbies have the opportunity to find a team that has someone who can draw threat and soak up the majority of incoming attacks.
So my point stands. It's simply difficult or not possible to have open mission content to provide an even challenge rating for all level ranges.
Regular alerts seemed to have figured that out. Scary Lvl Monsters are sort of that in reverse. Cryptic seems to be on the right track, they just need to figure out who their average player is.
Makes me wonder why they would do that. Pick an audience and make the game for them. Dark Souls is a great game, but not for casual players. Diablo 3 is a good time, but not hardcore. Making a game that appeals to everyone doesn't work.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
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It would be nice to have something New to do
The Tako fight should start at top of the hour. Iirc, it doesn't have a timer. However, it should get RESET at 45 minutes after the hour so that it's cleared and ready at the top of the next hour. This is because we've had many an instance where the Tako or Doomlord fight bugged out to unwinnable circumstances.
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"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
Yeah, but then again CO cannot provide an even challenge rating for characters of the same level either.
That doesn't mean that they shouldn't try to use the tools available to do the best they can though.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
The current Blood Moon bosses were originally built for pre-Alert, pre-vehicle play.
They should be modified accordingly. Simple as that.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
kinda expected it.
Agreed - the main reward should be based on the performance of the team on the whole.
I don't personally like the way top DPSers are exclusively rewarded for that role. It encourages people away from support roles and toward a very narrow selection of high damage powers/sets for the purposes of the event. I know I prefer to play events on certain characters which aren't necessarily my DPS toons, and it would be nice if they were still in the running for top ticket drops.
Granted, I understand it is difficult to implement a system that rewards effort accordingly, but it could at least be made competitive by using a combined statistic of damage taken / given / threat / healing instead of solely damage.
I dunno, sounds a lil too Hippy Love Fest for my tastes to be honest. I'm not saying give the whole show to the top performers but this kinda falls in close with the "We should always win and there should be no risk of failure", "We should get a participation trophy even if we do manage to lose", and the "I'm a superhero. I should have GODMODE" arguments to me(not saying you specifically but these things appear to be cropping up in places in this thread and the forums recently).
If this is attached to the team then all I need is an amazing build on one toon and 4 alt accounts and I am going to clean house. If anything, this makes it worse IMO than before. It's one thing if I team with friends and we do some aura stacking here and there. It's one thing if we sidekick if the event isn't LvL X(which this one is). It's entirely different if the better player is carrying their team across the finish line regardless of their contribution.
In the basics of storytelling the hero rises up to the challenge and ovecomes it. Now the opposition doesn't always have to me your typical "A Dark God" level threat but the hero does not usually show up, fail all over the place, and get the gold/princess/praise of the people just because, "Well, Sir Tommy, you sure did try." This is a world of superheroes....not Youth League Sports. I'm not against the idea of the [Thank You for Showing Up. You're all Special Token Box] bottom tier reward for participation....but it is what it is in all honesty and I still feel you should contribute to get it. Captain Faceplant gets a box with a small amount of tokens because they got in a few hits for 10-15 seconds each time before they horrifically tasted concrete. In this sense they did contribute...like a DoT. Meanwhile, Ultiman bear up the bad guy.
Now before someone gets all offended let me be perfectly clear that in the scenario presented in this post and the last I'm pretty expecting the [You Done Good Back There Kid Token Box] middle tier reward to fall into my lap most of the time. I might get the green sometimes. I might get the gold one very rarely. I am not saying I am one of the top players. In the world of Captain Faceplant and Ultiman...I'll be playing the part of Lord Above Average.
I do not know how I forgot about this but...YES YES YES YES YES. /signed
I agree with this but I will also add that when it comes to people of the same level I understand that there are varying levels of actual ability in this game between it's players. That being said, some of this has to fall into the catagory of a little bit of the good old fashioned "RTFM" stuff. Some people go Matrix on this game and open it like a book of swirling math. They see it all and get the maximium results. Some people see some of it but are of the opinion it's a video game where "Old Cryptic" made the PvE so only a certain level of effort is required(this is where I happily reside), some people run into genuine challenge in this world and IMO vets should help these newbies if they so wish it, some people are just too lazy to care and they're not very good(RTFM time), and some people appear to have gotten their powers by a freak accident involving huffing radioactive paint fumes.
IMO, and as horrible as it may sound, there has to be a line between balancing towards the middle of player ability...and not being penalized by the paint huffers. I will admit though that the actual implimentation of such a system is likely far more complex than the conversation about such a thing.
Fair enough. /signed
<waves hands> Good news, your wish has been granted....years ago. The scoreboard is for one "top ticket drop" which is a marginally(at best) device that lets you fly. It's completely skipable. Everything else is random. The scoreboard, for the most part, is for personal reference, amusement, and to be completely ignored if that's your choice. In the current system damage and healing do count towards contribution.
Now, on the other hand, I'm not saying this system could not be improved. The NW Dungeon Scoreboards(one of the few not scary/horrible things in NW IMO), does measure:
-Damage
-Healing
-Damage Taken(Tanking)
-Mobs Killed
-Deaths
It has a page on the scoreboard for each of these. It grants perks and titles tied into these. It is a superior system IMO and something we could benefit from having in CO. Having said that, it's still the walldressings for personal amusement(with perks and titles now so...Upgrade) and doesn't, even in NW, contribute to the rewards and who gets them. In dungeons it's still a team so you still have to roll those dice. I'd still like to see this in CO though.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
That is probably pretty close to the magic of how alerts work. My point was, Cryptic has some grasp on how to do stuff like that, it just needs to be tweaked for open world VS the average player at a certain level.
No, it's not horrible to say "stop catering to the lowest common denominator". That kind of design is just an endless spiral down until the devs give up and make everyone take no damage ever and one shot the entire zone with a single EB hit.
Rummaging through the database to find out how the average level 40 is geared, if that character is FF or AT, which characters are played the most, and all of the other data Cryptic would need to pull would be boring and tedious but not all that complex.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
I would fly to the bosses and enjoy a battle and get a good reward. In some cases early on I even got repeatedly facerolled by a gate boss until I learned timing and so on and last time I still saw newer players get dropped, but people learn and you know what? They get decent loot out of their efforts. Not everyone has a tricked out 40, vehicle, or even a freeform.
Calling this "autowin" is elitist plain and simple. I have seen people get dropped by gate bosses. Heck I've seen players looking for help with gate bosses.
The anniversary saw a bunch of new people playing the game, asking questions, learning the game, and yet they couldn't compete easily for Mechanon since most were brand new. Now a few weeks later, most of those new players would be in the sweet spot to enjoy an event like this and here come the elite wanting to change things yet again and screw all that new lifeblood.
Might as well then take the game behind the shed and shoot it if you're going to just screw all new lower-level players.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I'm not saying that new players should sleepwalk through content, but I do think that it's a bad idea to have seasonal content they can't participate meaningfully in. There's the spec trees chosen, gear (random green/blue mission rewards vs. Nemesis Heirloom vs Mercenary vs Heroic etc.) and even if two players are the same level with similar gear, their power selection can make a huge difference in how well they perform. And even if two players are given identical characters, their performance can vary based on player skill and playstyle preference.
Did you actually read what I typed? Are you still making the connection between "challenge" and "dying a lot" even though I stated in the most clear language possible that that is a false connection?
The one where I've played the series since Demon Souls so by the time Dark Souls 2 rolled around I was well beyond that "newbie phase" of dying a bunch due to not knowing the deal. I tore through Dark Souls 2 taking out entire swaths of content in my first playthrough without a single death... and yet, I still consider it challenging content.
Are you getting the whole "challenge doesn't mean dying a lot" theme here yet? Come on guy, you're clever, you get it, stop pretending you don't just so you can continue to pretend you're crusading against the big bad "make you die a lot" faction that doesn't actually exist u.u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Jon you need to have more confidence in your own abilities. I highly doubt you're the helpless "noob" you pretend to be for the sake of argument u.u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'm going to assume you didn't think this would be shocking to me because that would be dumb, and I don't like to assume that people are dumb u3u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.