He still makes the same point, though. If a game doesn't hook you right away, you're not likely to stay, especially if it's free to play.
Yeah, I can understand not being thrilled about it after 10 or 15 levels of it, but he didn't even really give the game a chance. What I can gather from that story he tells over and over again is that he played for only 15 minutes and then got distracted by something shiny because he forgot to take his Ritalin or something and never came out.
It's ridiculous to consider you can judge a game by so little play and profess to form an opinion. You might as well watch the first five minutes of a movie or read the first page in a book and profess to form an opinion with that. It's pure nonsense.
I played COH for a little over a month or so (pretty sure I paid for a month beyond what comes with buying the box).
Didn't really like it from the earliest hours. Not saying it was bad, just not for me. I gave it a shot because I was new to the MMO genre and wanted to see if the game got better (for me).
Even so I do think that one can form a valid opinion about something based on whether or not one enjoys it from very early on, but only with the caveat that the opinion's validity applies only to oneself. To use an analogy, because those are so fun, if the first bite of a dish makes me nauseous and the second makes me vomit, I don't need to finish it to know that I do not like it. Someone else might take a bite of the same dish and be delighted with the taste.
Ultimately I tend to give a game a chance beyond the first few levels (except for Perfect World, created a character, logged in, delivered one attack, uninstalled), but not much more than that. If a game cannot grab me within a month I am gone. Entirely too many options out there to waste time on a game that isn't fun fairly soon. If it is a free to play game it generally gets less time to earn my interest than I give to a P2P game.
No it's not. It's just not. It's barely experiencing the game at all. As I've also said before, it would be like judging CO by just the tutorial and the first two Purple Gang missions. It's just not enough play time to form a valid opinion.
It wasn't an opinion on the actual content experience; the game environment that's being interacted with or its visuals. It was an opinion on player gameplay mechanics and controls. That's what's being judged.
If a game looks great on an immersive level overall I'll give credit where its due, but if I feel that the interaction between me and my character be it combat or non-combat wise with regards to mechanics falls short, then it's perfectly acceptable if I choose not to experience the game further. I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to have a more in-depth experience with the game if I'm not enjoying the actual gameplay.
Now if someone were to judge the game negatively solely on just how the tutorials and Westside looked and think that those two are representative of the whole game, then yes I agree that that someone is giving an unfair judgement of the game.
Since you're using movies as an analogy, here's one from me. The movie I'm watching could have good writing, good pacing, good acting, good action and etc., but if the director chooses to shake the camera constantly as a visual style and starts making me feel nauseous early on then I'm not going to continue watching. The engagement between me and the movie just can't there from the start no matter how good everything else about it is.
why on earth do people keep acting like CO with the Neverwinter Engine would be the best thing ever? And why is there such praise for an Action MMO?
>_> Seriously, if I wanted fast-paced combat that revolves around button combos that can be spammed, I'd play DMC and not an MMO..
Action does not mean button combos.
CO is an Action MMO, but there are no button combos. ARPGs are action games and have no button combos. Personally prefer more action based instead of the traditional skill rotations / macros of older MMOs. I stopped playing EQ2 when by level 12 I already had more spells than could fit on one hot bar. At this point in time, I have zero interest in playing games like the WoWs or EQs that I know will require spending time setting up several hotbars worth of crap, macros, and mostly likely installing some mods.
For me, the biggest appeal is that there aren't a ton of skill to sift through and that whole moving around to not take damage thing is something that requires some skill. Well, in theory. It's the difference between spending all of eternity creating your own hotbar setup or being able to pick some skills and go stab things. As much as I like build theory, I don't want to spend hours on just figuring out a skill rotation and macros.
I'm pretty sure TV shows, movies, and professional writers all try their best to hook you in the first 5 minutes. That's why someone tends to be dead in the first 5 minutes. Considering the infinite number of all of those things, I would judge them by the first few minutes / pages. For games, it it's not fun during the first few levels, I'm not going to waste my time getting to level 20+. Chances are, there's a game out there that is fun right from the get go and doesn't expect me to slog through till end game before the "fun" part happens.
I don't really care about a game being superhero themed or not since I don't read comics. I'm more concerned if a game is good or not. CO is OK, but on the boring side. Awesome dress up sim though.
It wasn't an opinion on the actual content experience; the game environment that's being interacted with or its visuals. It was an opinion on player gameplay mechanics and controls. That's what's being judged.
Um... no. No it isn't. Jon's told his story more than once, and he's judging more than the "environment." Heck, he's talking about more than the "environment" in that recent rendition of the story. Perhaps you need to read it again? He is judging it by actual content experience ("growing bored"), on a whole estimated 15 minutes of play (I'm estimating this by the "flower hunt" mission he's mentioned in the past as his quitting point).
Yeah, I can understand not being thrilled about it after 10 or 15 levels of it, but he didn't even really give the game a chance. What I can gather from that story he tells over and over again is that he played for only 15 minutes and then got distracted by something shiny because he forgot to take his Ritalin or something and never came out.
It's ridiculous to consider you can judge a game by so little play and profess to form an opinion. You might as well watch the first five minutes of a movie or read the first page in a book and profess to form an opinion with that. It's pure nonsense.
At the end of the day, though, they didn't get any money out of him. That's the bottom line.
Personally, I don't think I've ever made a judgment like that on a game, 15 minutes and quit, but it's still valid. I personally know people (real-life people) who won't even touch Champs because it's just not CoH. Also one who won't even give it 15 minutes because of how the graphics look. I've told them they're stupid time and time again, but it doesn't change their opinion. The game didn't hook them, and that's that. People don't always give things a fair shake, or are put off way too early to seem like they gave a valid judgment, but the reality is that that happens.
We've got all sorts here. People that love Champs, people that love CoH, people that loved CoH and tried Champs but were unimpressed but then came back after CoH shut down and finally gave it enough time to appreciate it, people that love CoH and only grudgingly play Champs, and those that will bone out and say Champs can go stuff itself as soon as CoT comes out (literally heard in-game with language that isn't as nice as "stuff"), and people that loved CoH until Champs came out. They've all got their reasons, and you can't really tell any of them they're wrong.
"Best" superhero MMO is just an opinion. It doesn't really matter. And asking this on the Champions forum is basically asking for a fixed answer.
Um... no. No it isn't. Jon's told his story more than once, and he's judging more than the "environment." Heck, he's talking about more than the "environment" in that recent rendition of the story. Perhaps you need to read it again? He is judging it by actual content experience ("growing bored"), on a whole estimated 15 minutes of play (I'm estimating this by the "flower hunt" mission he's mentioned in the past as his quitting point).
Then I went out to fight bad guys. I got to fire a lightning blast - then punch people while I waited for the lightning to come off cooldown.
After some boredom and disappointment, I left the game, never to return. It's no good telling me, "Well, if you just stick it out, the game gets really good later!" Somehow, I can't imagine the game getting better enough to take that early taste out of my mouth.
I read it again and his boredom comment seems to have to do with waiting for cooldowns even for the most basic attacks, which was essentially what CoX's combat system revolved around for all powers.
You need to read what I said again because what I said was gameplay mechanics being judged, not the game environments.
At the end of the day, though, they didn't get any money out of him. That's the bottom line.
Personally, I don't think I've ever made a judgment like that on a game, 15 minutes and quit, but it's still valid.
No it's not. To me, it's just a sign of a very short attention span that can't be bothered by anything that doesn't give them their shinies immediately. Such "opinions" aren't worth crap.
I personally know people (real-life people) who won't even touch Champs because it's just not CoH. Also one who won't even give it 15 minutes because of how the graphics look. I've told them they're stupid time and time again,
Rightly so. Because they are stupid. I still don't like the art style in this game, yet I'm still here. So obviously playing it for a while caused me to find something I like. I cannot suffer short attention spans; if you played something or watched something so little and minute and profess an "opinion," I can't really take you seriously.
Someone stated that, yes, the hook to a movie or a TV show is usually in the first 5 minutes, but that hook doesn't give you the breadth of whether that film is actually decent. You can have explosions and excitement galore in the first 5 minutes, but that doesn't mean the show would actually be good. In fact, it could be terrible.
Hell, nothing real fancy happens in the first five minutes of the Godfather. Instead you have a guy asking for Vito's help, and a wedding. No deaths. No ADD now now now gimme gimme gimme excitement. Yet the guy asking for Vito's help, his speech, it really grabs you. And it's one of the greatest movies ever made.
No it's not. To me, it's just a sign of a very short attention span that can't be bothered by anything that doesn't give them their shinies immediately. Such "opinions" aren't worth crap.
I read it again and his boredom comment seems to have to do with waiting for cooldowns even for the most basic attacks, which was essentially what CoX's combat system revolved around for all powers.
You need to read what I said again because what I said was gameplay mechanics being judged, not the game environments.
Yeah, so, I misread your post. The point still stands. He's told that story so many times, I almost know it by heart. It was more than just the cooldown mechanic or environment, because he also has bitched about the flowers and so much more. As if barely playing the game is enough to build a critical opinion.
Because such a small sampling experience doesn't tell me anything. "Durr, I didn't like waiting for the power reload." "What about later when you had more powers from leveling and could build an attack chain?" "I didn't play that far. Duurr." "......"
Because such a small sampling experience doesn't tell me anything. "Durr, I didn't like waiting for the power reload." "What about later when you had more powers from leveling and could build an attack chain?" "I didn't play that far. Duurr." "......"
It's called a first impression. It's kind of a big deal when playing a certain game for the first time.
Your core argument is akin to saying that anyone who downloads a free demo of a game and doesn't pay money to experience the full product because their first impression from playing the demo is a negative one, is being an idiot.
That idiot also apparently has ADD because they can't pay prolonged attention to a game that they don't find enjoyable. That idiot also by default has no valid opinion because they don't enjoy the gameplay due to certain mechanics that are fundamental to the game from the first 5 mins of the game to much later on, an opinion entirely based on preferences. That person is also an idiot for not forcing his or herself to spend hours or even days on an activity they don't find enjoyable for the sake of a more "valid" opinion.
It's called a first impression. It's kind of a big deal when playing a certain game for the first time.
Your core argument is akin to saying that anyone who downloads a free demo of a game and doesn't pay money to experience the full product because their first impression from playing the demo is a negative one, is being an idiot.
I don't know what demos you've been playing, but every demo I've played provided sufficient material that lasted much longer than 15 minutes.
That idiot also apparently has ADD because they can't pay prolonged attention to a game that they don't find enjoyable.
I can't really believe that "enjoyment" or lack of can even be firmly established in so little time.
That idiot also by default has no valid opinion because they don't enjoy the gameplay due to certain mechanics that are fundamental to the game from the first 5 mins of the game to much later on, an opinion entirely based on preferences.
Again, not enough has been experienced of the mechanics. He only piddled around in the first two or three levels and quit. Yeah, he knows about cooldowns, but has he figured out there are enhancements that reduce the cooldowns? Does he know he can use other powers while waiting for the one? No, because he never went far enough to find out. His opinion is utterly worthless because he actually knows NOTHING.
That person is also an idiot for not forcing his or herself to spend hours or even days on an activity they don't find enjoyable for the sake of a more "valid" opinion.
You can't criticize something without knowledge about it.
Again, not enough has been experienced of the mechanics. He only piddled around in the first two or three levels and quit. Yeah, he knows about cooldowns, but has he figured out there are enhancements that reduce the cooldowns? Does he know he can use other powers while waiting for the one? No, because he never went far enough to find out. His opinion is utterly worthless because he actually knows NOTHING.
So he's Jon Snow.
On a serious note, my previous post about first impressions and how they matter is my answer to this.
You can't criticize something without knowledge about it.
If I don't enjoy a game and how it plays within the first few mins, that's enough knowledge for me. I don't feel the need to slog through a game I don't enjoy playing for hours on end just to appease some random person on the internet who thinks my opinion on the game is invalid.
Sign of the times? With the internet, people are used to instant gratification.
I agree that most things are worth exploring more before making a judgment, but still, the marketing team's job is to get everyone hooked, all the time, in the first minute. :P
Sign of the times? With the internet, people are used to instant gratification.
I agree that most things are worth exploring more before making a judgment, but still, the marketing team's job is to get everyone hooked, all the time, in the first minute. :P
To be fair to CoX, it succeeded in getting me hooked, but this was back then when the combat system of waiting for powers / abilities to recharge was the norm. I didn't find issue with that having previously played LOTRO which also uses the same system. Also playing as a superhero was a refreshing experience from the standard Tolkien-inspired fantasy setting. I simply wasn't aware that something could be done differently and how combat could be something other than just waiting for recharge timers to end.
If CO with its fast-paced arcade-style power-spammy combat was around at the time and I played it first, things might have been different with how I would approach and evaluate CoX during my first playthrough.
To be fair to CoX, it succeeded in getting me hooked, but this was back then when the combat system of waiting for powers / abilities to recharge was the norm.
...
I simply wasn't aware that something could be done differently and how combat could be something other than just waiting for recharge timers to end.
Yeah, I can understand not being thrilled about it after 10 or 15 levels of it, but he didn't even really give the game a chance. What I can gather from that story he tells over and over again is that he played for only 15 minutes and then got distracted by something shiny because he forgot to take his Ritalin or something and never came out.
It's ridiculous to consider you can judge a game by so little play and profess to form an opinion. You might as well watch the first five minutes of a movie or read the first page in a book and profess to form an opinion with that. It's pure nonsense.
You are missing one thing.
Games are played for pleasure. They aren't some kind of unpaid work or player does not have a duty to "give a chance" to maybe have a pleasure. On contrary, it's the game that tries to make an impression enough to hook the player ASAP to have him or her spending money.
Especially if there are games on the market providing the same.
In times where early WoW and Lineage II were the norm, CoH/V worked fine.
But later, the norm for the genre were also DCUO and CO.
Go figure the difference. Times changed. MMOs changed. Market changed. Competition changed.
Jon's opinion is perfectly valid. He had no obligation to give a further try if he did not enjoy it. Especially if he could pick another game in the same genre and compare which one is more to his liking.
Sign of the times? With the internet, people are used to instant gratification.
I agree that most things are worth exploring more before making a judgment, but still, the marketing team's job is to get everyone hooked, all the time, in the first minute. :P
Sign of the time is that if we want to play an MMO, we don't have to play WoW or one of it's clones. We don't even have to play a fantasy game. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have endless hours to play every single game out there, so I tend to be picky. Some games don't even get 5 minutes if they don't have certain menu or control options.The original Perfect World game got this treatment as did Lineage since neither of them allowed me to change the UI size to accommodate my larger screen.
I have certain expectations of a game that exists in 2014 and if a game doesn't meet them, it gets uninstalled. Since I'm not a journalist, I'm not obligated to spend my time running around doing stuff and things I find icky.
CO is an Action MMO, but there are no button combos. ARPGs are action games and have no button combos. Personally prefer more action based instead of the traditional skill rotations / macros of older MMOs. I stopped playing EQ2 when by level 12 I already had more spells than could fit on one hot bar. At this point in time, I have zero interest in playing games like the WoWs or EQs that I know will require spending time setting up several hotbars worth of crap, macros, and mostly likely installing some mods.
You should try the melee combat in STO. It reminds me of Tekken and Streetfighter, but with only 2 buttons and no hyper combos.
I'm pretty sure TV shows, movies, and professional writers all try their best to hook you in the first 5 minutes. That's why someone tends to be dead in the first 5 minutes. Considering the infinite number of all of those things, I would judge them by the first few minutes / pages. For games, it it's not fun during the first few levels, I'm not going to waste my time getting to level 20+. Chances are, there's a game out there that is fun right from the get go and doesn't expect me to slog through till end game before the "fun" part happens.
Let's go with the example of Terror of MechaGodzilla. In the opening credits we see a recap of Godzilla's first fight with MechaGodzilla. Then shortly afterwards we see a research sub that is looking for MechaGodzilla's remains destroyed by Titanosaurus.
Not sure if that was more than 5 minutes, but, if so, it wasn't much more.
At the end of the day, though, they didn't get any money out of him. That's the bottom line.
Personally, I don't think I've ever made a judgment like that on a game, 15 minutes and quit, but it's still valid. I personally know people (real-life people) who won't even touch Champs because it's just not CoH. Also one who won't even give it 15 minutes because of how the graphics look. I've told them they're stupid time and time again, but it doesn't change their opinion. The game didn't hook them, and that's that. People don't always give things a fair shake, or are put off way too early to seem like they gave a valid judgment, but the reality is that that happens.
We've got all sorts here. People that love Champs, people that love CoH, people that loved CoH and tried Champs but were unimpressed but then came back after CoH shut down and finally gave it enough time to appreciate it, people that love CoH and only grudgingly play Champs, and those that will bone out and say Champs can go stuff itself as soon as CoT comes out (literally heard in-game with language that isn't as nice as "stuff"), and people that loved CoH until Champs came out. They've all got their reasons, and you can't really tell any of them they're wrong.
"Best" superhero MMO is just an opinion. It doesn't really matter. And asking this on the Champions forum is basically asking for a fixed answer.
If you'd like, I can run through all the things I have going on in my real life that limit time I can spend gaming. Upshot is, I just don't have time to be in-game more than maybe half an hour at a stretch except on special occasions; if you can't hook me in half an hour, you've lost me. I only have so much leisure time, and I'd rather not spend it doing what amounts to a whole 'nother job before it can become fun.
CO is fun from the moment I leave the Character Creator. Same for STO. CoH had promise - but failed to fulfill it in time for me. Same for DDO (I used to play AD&D 1st and 2nd Ed back in the day, was hoping for something siilmar in DDO, failed to find it).
Why do you become so angry when the subject comes up, anyway? It's not like my opinion matters, and it's not like I'm going to convince anyone not to try CoH - kind of hard even if I wanted to do that, because you can't try something that's not there. I just wanted to speak up for the position that for some players, Cryptic's first crack at the genre wasn't the be-all and end-all of online gaming. Your experience differed from mine. Congratulations, and I wish you could still play your preferred game; competition is good, keeps Cryptic from getting lazy. But my experience was what it was, and all your apparent anger won't alter that.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Yeah, it can't be denied CoX had a lot more awesome content. But the Combat system in CO is still more action oriented, and therefore, in my opinion, superior.
The Combat style of a game is a huge thing for me, considering that just about every mission in the game involves combat.
What CO needs now to exceed CoX in quality is the same amount of content and things to do.
actually action MMO are a major reason why actual RP and even socializing in MMO is dieing.
DDO for example started so many years ago from launch with built on fairly decent voice chat. They did this because in an active fast moving game, taking time to type is often more a handicap then anything else. To this day there it creates rifts between RPers who prefer the medium of text, and even the hearing impaired, with those move move move listen now, if you dont have ears on your black listed power gamer type.
Champions siince launch took heat from those coming over from CoH for it feeling strangely anti social, many couldnt put their fingers on why, but its because the game play is so fast and frenetic RP banter, and even social banter have no place during gameplay.
Fast active game play as another said is far better suited to playing a single player action game or even a group played action game like borderlands 1 or 2 then an MMO.
In an MMO a game play that creates brief windows to type comments, banter, and rp is actually the ideal for many. WoW for example still does this, and while mainly well known as the raiders paradise, it has its tight knit RP populations, and plenty of room in pugging to get to know others and form long lasting bonds.
You're assuming that playing the demo from start to finish is mandatory to get a basic feel of the gameplay, to determine if it's enjoyable or not.
Before you answer "yes it is", that's your opinion.
Well, it's an opinion that gives me superior experience to judge with.
Again, your opinion. Mileage may vary and all that jazz.
First you have to actually drive a mile to get a mileage.
So he's Jon Snow.
Pretty much. Arguments from ignorance and all that.
If I don't enjoy a game and how it plays within the first few mins, that's enough knowledge for me. I don't feel the need to slog through a game I don't enjoy playing for hours on end just to appease some random person on the internet who thinks my opinion on the game is invalid.
Sounds like you're missing a lot then. I like to get a better feel of things and make sure my opinion's actually informed.
I'm not suprised that I'm in disagreement either.
Of course, because you're contrary for the sake of being contrary.
Sign of the times? With the internet, people are used to instant gratification.
I agree that most things are worth exploring more before making a judgment, but still, the marketing team's job is to get everyone hooked, all the time, in the first minute. :P
Jon's opinion is perfectly valid. He had no obligation to give a further try if he did not enjoy it. Especially if he could pick another game in the same genre and compare which one is more to his liking.
No it's not. He didn't even really give it a chance. He barely even played the damn thing.
Maybe people so concerned about having small windows of time to type should maybe... Learn how to type? I can type during combat and I don't use acronyms or abbreviations. To say that action MMOs are killing roleplaying because people can't type properly is the funniest thing I've heard in a while.
If you'd like, I can run through all the things I have going on in my real life that limit time I can spend gaming. Upshot is, I just don't have time to be in-game more than maybe half an hour at a stretch except on special occasions; if you can't hook me in half an hour, you've lost me. I only have so much leisure time, and I'd rather not spend it doing what amounts to a whole 'nother job before it can become fun.
CO is fun from the moment I leave the Character Creator. Same for STO. CoH had promise - but failed to fulfill it in time for me. Same for DDO (I used to play AD&D 1st and 2nd Ed back in the day, was hoping for something siilmar in DDO, failed to find it).
Why do you become so angry when the subject comes up, anyway? It's not like my opinion matters, and it's not like I'm going to convince anyone not to try CoH - kind of hard even if I wanted to do that, because you can't try something that's not there. I just wanted to speak up for the position that for some players, Cryptic's first crack at the genre wasn't the be-all and end-all of online gaming. Your experience differed from mine. Congratulations, and I wish you could still play your preferred game; competition is good, keeps Cryptic from getting lazy. But my experience was what it was, and all your apparent anger won't alter that.
frankly you come off more and more man like some head in the sand fan boy with ADD and bad long term memory.
CO is fun enough from the moment one starts sure. funner then other games? Not by a long mile I can list MMO, single player games etc that all do that grab you and suck you in way better.
A few for me this last couple years would be the Tomb Raider relaunch and Dishonored, Even Sleeping Dogs. All way better action games that suck you in right out the gate.
As for lasting power. I started each of those single player games on easy mode. I have since gone on to replay Dishonored among them so far on max dif and in a differing fashion to see a different ending. Extremely different play through experiences to say the least.
In CO all my characters, if built to be optimal and effective will feel the same even if using different powers because I still would use only 1 Long range primary attack one ranged aoe attack, and maybe maybe one melee attack for flavor, all the rest of my build would be defenses and heals of one flavor or another. That is because anything less is self gimping for no reason.
And the content play through will be virtually identical because COs content is far far too shallow to really allow for anything else.
Even from launch CoH had different sotry arcs based on origin. A wide variety of story arcs to go through making playing through them all in a single characters play through impossible pre flash back. And by the same time point in its history as CO is now at, well yeah we had city of villains, AE, more advanced story arcs even better integrated into the game world and lore players had come to love.
I played blasters in every shape and color since CoHs first year. My first an electric/fire blaster. He never ever ever had to wait longer then a single brawl punch for his first power attacks to recharge and that changed the moment I got one more attack power, you could string any 3 early blaster attacks into an endless cycle if you where so inclined.
And ironically it sounds very anti social to of started city of heroes and not joined a frequently and always freindly to new comer advertised sewer group, which would of certainly brought you into the fold if you where coming into an MMO to be social.
See what you say turns you off CoH while saying you can play CO endlessly just doesnt even make sense. CO has nothing to offer anyone who likes depth in story content or replayability via different options.
In CO my options are wipe out every foe, or tp past every foe. Thats it. My options for killing the trash are blast it, and my option for killing bosses is to blast it with my best single target attack.
In dishonored I can kill my foes in many ways, find the non lethal routes, and when beating the game and killing the final douche there are litterally videos out there of people showing dozens of different ways to kill that one guy.
My personal fave is waiting till the guy shoots at you, stop time, possess his body, walk over in front of his bullet, and then jump out and unfreeze time.
I like to call that the self inflicted suicide ending;)
Comments
Yeah, I can understand not being thrilled about it after 10 or 15 levels of it, but he didn't even really give the game a chance. What I can gather from that story he tells over and over again is that he played for only 15 minutes and then got distracted by something shiny because he forgot to take his Ritalin or something and never came out.
It's ridiculous to consider you can judge a game by so little play and profess to form an opinion. You might as well watch the first five minutes of a movie or read the first page in a book and profess to form an opinion with that. It's pure nonsense.
Didn't really like it from the earliest hours. Not saying it was bad, just not for me. I gave it a shot because I was new to the MMO genre and wanted to see if the game got better (for me).
Even so I do think that one can form a valid opinion about something based on whether or not one enjoys it from very early on, but only with the caveat that the opinion's validity applies only to oneself. To use an analogy, because those are so fun, if the first bite of a dish makes me nauseous and the second makes me vomit, I don't need to finish it to know that I do not like it. Someone else might take a bite of the same dish and be delighted with the taste.
Ultimately I tend to give a game a chance beyond the first few levels (except for Perfect World, created a character, logged in, delivered one attack, uninstalled), but not much more than that. If a game cannot grab me within a month I am gone. Entirely too many options out there to waste time on a game that isn't fun fairly soon. If it is a free to play game it generally gets less time to earn my interest than I give to a P2P game.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
It wasn't an opinion on the actual content experience; the game environment that's being interacted with or its visuals. It was an opinion on player gameplay mechanics and controls. That's what's being judged.
If a game looks great on an immersive level overall I'll give credit where its due, but if I feel that the interaction between me and my character be it combat or non-combat wise with regards to mechanics falls short, then it's perfectly acceptable if I choose not to experience the game further. I don't think there's anything wrong with not wanting to have a more in-depth experience with the game if I'm not enjoying the actual gameplay.
Now if someone were to judge the game negatively solely on just how the tutorials and Westside looked and think that those two are representative of the whole game, then yes I agree that that someone is giving an unfair judgement of the game.
Since you're using movies as an analogy, here's one from me. The movie I'm watching could have good writing, good pacing, good acting, good action and etc., but if the director chooses to shake the camera constantly as a visual style and starts making me feel nauseous early on then I'm not going to continue watching. The engagement between me and the movie just can't there from the start no matter how good everything else about it is.
Action does not mean button combos.
CO is an Action MMO, but there are no button combos. ARPGs are action games and have no button combos. Personally prefer more action based instead of the traditional skill rotations / macros of older MMOs. I stopped playing EQ2 when by level 12 I already had more spells than could fit on one hot bar. At this point in time, I have zero interest in playing games like the WoWs or EQs that I know will require spending time setting up several hotbars worth of crap, macros, and mostly likely installing some mods.
For me, the biggest appeal is that there aren't a ton of skill to sift through and that whole moving around to not take damage thing is something that requires some skill. Well, in theory. It's the difference between spending all of eternity creating your own hotbar setup or being able to pick some skills and go stab things. As much as I like build theory, I don't want to spend hours on just figuring out a skill rotation and macros.
I'm pretty sure TV shows, movies, and professional writers all try their best to hook you in the first 5 minutes. That's why someone tends to be dead in the first 5 minutes. Considering the infinite number of all of those things, I would judge them by the first few minutes / pages. For games, it it's not fun during the first few levels, I'm not going to waste my time getting to level 20+. Chances are, there's a game out there that is fun right from the get go and doesn't expect me to slog through till end game before the "fun" part happens.
I don't really care about a game being superhero themed or not since I don't read comics. I'm more concerned if a game is good or not. CO is OK, but on the boring side. Awesome dress up sim though.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Um... no. No it isn't. Jon's told his story more than once, and he's judging more than the "environment." Heck, he's talking about more than the "environment" in that recent rendition of the story. Perhaps you need to read it again? He is judging it by actual content experience ("growing bored"), on a whole estimated 15 minutes of play (I'm estimating this by the "flower hunt" mission he's mentioned in the past as his quitting point).
At the end of the day, though, they didn't get any money out of him. That's the bottom line.
Personally, I don't think I've ever made a judgment like that on a game, 15 minutes and quit, but it's still valid. I personally know people (real-life people) who won't even touch Champs because it's just not CoH. Also one who won't even give it 15 minutes because of how the graphics look. I've told them they're stupid time and time again, but it doesn't change their opinion. The game didn't hook them, and that's that. People don't always give things a fair shake, or are put off way too early to seem like they gave a valid judgment, but the reality is that that happens.
We've got all sorts here. People that love Champs, people that love CoH, people that loved CoH and tried Champs but were unimpressed but then came back after CoH shut down and finally gave it enough time to appreciate it, people that love CoH and only grudgingly play Champs, and those that will bone out and say Champs can go stuff itself as soon as CoT comes out (literally heard in-game with language that isn't as nice as "stuff"), and people that loved CoH until Champs came out. They've all got their reasons, and you can't really tell any of them they're wrong.
"Best" superhero MMO is just an opinion. It doesn't really matter. And asking this on the Champions forum is basically asking for a fixed answer.
I read it again and his boredom comment seems to have to do with waiting for cooldowns even for the most basic attacks, which was essentially what CoX's combat system revolved around for all powers.
You need to read what I said again because what I said was gameplay mechanics being judged, not the game environments.
No it's not. To me, it's just a sign of a very short attention span that can't be bothered by anything that doesn't give them their shinies immediately. Such "opinions" aren't worth crap.
Rightly so. Because they are stupid. I still don't like the art style in this game, yet I'm still here. So obviously playing it for a while caused me to find something I like. I cannot suffer short attention spans; if you played something or watched something so little and minute and profess an "opinion," I can't really take you seriously.
Someone stated that, yes, the hook to a movie or a TV show is usually in the first 5 minutes, but that hook doesn't give you the breadth of whether that film is actually decent. You can have explosions and excitement galore in the first 5 minutes, but that doesn't mean the show would actually be good. In fact, it could be terrible.
Hell, nothing real fancy happens in the first five minutes of the Godfather. Instead you have a guy asking for Vito's help, and a wedding. No deaths. No ADD now now now gimme gimme gimme excitement. Yet the guy asking for Vito's help, his speech, it really grabs you. And it's one of the greatest movies ever made.
In your opinion.
Yeah, so, I misread your post. The point still stands. He's told that story so many times, I almost know it by heart. It was more than just the cooldown mechanic or environment, because he also has bitched about the flowers and so much more. As if barely playing the game is enough to build a critical opinion.
It's just not.
Because such a small sampling experience doesn't tell me anything. "Durr, I didn't like waiting for the power reload." "What about later when you had more powers from leveling and could build an attack chain?" "I didn't play that far. Duurr." "......"
It's called a first impression. It's kind of a big deal when playing a certain game for the first time.
Your core argument is akin to saying that anyone who downloads a free demo of a game and doesn't pay money to experience the full product because their first impression from playing the demo is a negative one, is being an idiot.
That idiot also apparently has ADD because they can't pay prolonged attention to a game that they don't find enjoyable. That idiot also by default has no valid opinion because they don't enjoy the gameplay due to certain mechanics that are fundamental to the game from the first 5 mins of the game to much later on, an opinion entirely based on preferences. That person is also an idiot for not forcing his or herself to spend hours or even days on an activity they don't find enjoyable for the sake of a more "valid" opinion.
Yeah, going to have to disagree there.
I don't know what demos you've been playing, but every demo I've played provided sufficient material that lasted much longer than 15 minutes.
I can't really believe that "enjoyment" or lack of can even be firmly established in so little time.
Again, not enough has been experienced of the mechanics. He only piddled around in the first two or three levels and quit. Yeah, he knows about cooldowns, but has he figured out there are enhancements that reduce the cooldowns? Does he know he can use other powers while waiting for the one? No, because he never went far enough to find out. His opinion is utterly worthless because he actually knows NOTHING.
You can't criticize something without knowledge about it.
Somehow I'm not surprised.
You're assuming that playing the demo from start to finish is mandatory to get a basic feel of the gameplay, to determine if it's enjoyable or not.
Before you answer "yes it is", that's your opinion.
Again, your opinion. Mileage may vary and all that jazz.
So he's Jon Snow.
On a serious note, my previous post about first impressions and how they matter is my answer to this.
If I don't enjoy a game and how it plays within the first few mins, that's enough knowledge for me. I don't feel the need to slog through a game I don't enjoy playing for hours on end just to appease some random person on the internet who thinks my opinion on the game is invalid.
I'm not suprised that I'm in disagreement either.
Sign of the times? With the internet, people are used to instant gratification.
I agree that most things are worth exploring more before making a judgment, but still, the marketing team's job is to get everyone hooked, all the time, in the first minute. :P
To be fair to CoX, it succeeded in getting me hooked, but this was back then when the combat system of waiting for powers / abilities to recharge was the norm. I didn't find issue with that having previously played LOTRO which also uses the same system. Also playing as a superhero was a refreshing experience from the standard Tolkien-inspired fantasy setting. I simply wasn't aware that something could be done differently and how combat could be something other than just waiting for recharge timers to end.
If CO with its fast-paced arcade-style power-spammy combat was around at the time and I played it first, things might have been different with how I would approach and evaluate CoX during my first playthrough.
Basically the same way it was for me.
You are missing one thing.
Games are played for pleasure. They aren't some kind of unpaid work or player does not have a duty to "give a chance" to maybe have a pleasure. On contrary, it's the game that tries to make an impression enough to hook the player ASAP to have him or her spending money.
Especially if there are games on the market providing the same.
In times where early WoW and Lineage II were the norm, CoH/V worked fine.
But later, the norm for the genre were also DCUO and CO.
Go figure the difference. Times changed. MMOs changed. Market changed. Competition changed.
Jon's opinion is perfectly valid. He had no obligation to give a further try if he did not enjoy it. Especially if he could pick another game in the same genre and compare which one is more to his liking.
Nobody told him he should play more of the game.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Sign of the time is that if we want to play an MMO, we don't have to play WoW or one of it's clones. We don't even have to play a fantasy game. I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't have endless hours to play every single game out there, so I tend to be picky. Some games don't even get 5 minutes if they don't have certain menu or control options.The original Perfect World game got this treatment as did Lineage since neither of them allowed me to change the UI size to accommodate my larger screen.
I have certain expectations of a game that exists in 2014 and if a game doesn't meet them, it gets uninstalled. Since I'm not a journalist, I'm not obligated to spend my time running around doing stuff and things I find icky.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Not sure if that was more than 5 minutes, but, if so, it wasn't much more. I heard CoT was vaporware....
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
My characters
CO is fun from the moment I leave the Character Creator. Same for STO. CoH had promise - but failed to fulfill it in time for me. Same for DDO (I used to play AD&D 1st and 2nd Ed back in the day, was hoping for something siilmar in DDO, failed to find it).
Why do you become so angry when the subject comes up, anyway? It's not like my opinion matters, and it's not like I'm going to convince anyone not to try CoH - kind of hard even if I wanted to do that, because you can't try something that's not there. I just wanted to speak up for the position that for some players, Cryptic's first crack at the genre wasn't the be-all and end-all of online gaming. Your experience differed from mine. Congratulations, and I wish you could still play your preferred game; competition is good, keeps Cryptic from getting lazy. But my experience was what it was, and all your apparent anger won't alter that.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
actually action MMO are a major reason why actual RP and even socializing in MMO is dieing.
DDO for example started so many years ago from launch with built on fairly decent voice chat. They did this because in an active fast moving game, taking time to type is often more a handicap then anything else. To this day there it creates rifts between RPers who prefer the medium of text, and even the hearing impaired, with those move move move listen now, if you dont have ears on your black listed power gamer type.
Champions siince launch took heat from those coming over from CoH for it feeling strangely anti social, many couldnt put their fingers on why, but its because the game play is so fast and frenetic RP banter, and even social banter have no place during gameplay.
Fast active game play as another said is far better suited to playing a single player action game or even a group played action game like borderlands 1 or 2 then an MMO.
In an MMO a game play that creates brief windows to type comments, banter, and rp is actually the ideal for many. WoW for example still does this, and while mainly well known as the raiders paradise, it has its tight knit RP populations, and plenty of room in pugging to get to know others and form long lasting bonds.
Well, it's an opinion that gives me superior experience to judge with.
First you have to actually drive a mile to get a mileage.
Pretty much. Arguments from ignorance and all that.
Sounds like you're missing a lot then. I like to get a better feel of things and make sure my opinion's actually informed.
Of course, because you're contrary for the sake of being contrary.
At least Biff gets it.
No it's not. He didn't even really give it a chance. He barely even played the damn thing.
Sounds like the attention span of a gnat to me.
Right, because it's not an opinion. Just ignorance.
Maybe people so concerned about having small windows of time to type should maybe... Learn how to type? I can type during combat and I don't use acronyms or abbreviations. To say that action MMOs are killing roleplaying because people can't type properly is the funniest thing I've heard in a while.
frankly you come off more and more man like some head in the sand fan boy with ADD and bad long term memory.
CO is fun enough from the moment one starts sure. funner then other games? Not by a long mile I can list MMO, single player games etc that all do that grab you and suck you in way better.
A few for me this last couple years would be the Tomb Raider relaunch and Dishonored, Even Sleeping Dogs. All way better action games that suck you in right out the gate.
As for lasting power. I started each of those single player games on easy mode. I have since gone on to replay Dishonored among them so far on max dif and in a differing fashion to see a different ending. Extremely different play through experiences to say the least.
In CO all my characters, if built to be optimal and effective will feel the same even if using different powers because I still would use only 1 Long range primary attack one ranged aoe attack, and maybe maybe one melee attack for flavor, all the rest of my build would be defenses and heals of one flavor or another. That is because anything less is self gimping for no reason.
And the content play through will be virtually identical because COs content is far far too shallow to really allow for anything else.
Even from launch CoH had different sotry arcs based on origin. A wide variety of story arcs to go through making playing through them all in a single characters play through impossible pre flash back. And by the same time point in its history as CO is now at, well yeah we had city of villains, AE, more advanced story arcs even better integrated into the game world and lore players had come to love.
I played blasters in every shape and color since CoHs first year. My first an electric/fire blaster. He never ever ever had to wait longer then a single brawl punch for his first power attacks to recharge and that changed the moment I got one more attack power, you could string any 3 early blaster attacks into an endless cycle if you where so inclined.
And ironically it sounds very anti social to of started city of heroes and not joined a frequently and always freindly to new comer advertised sewer group, which would of certainly brought you into the fold if you where coming into an MMO to be social.
See what you say turns you off CoH while saying you can play CO endlessly just doesnt even make sense. CO has nothing to offer anyone who likes depth in story content or replayability via different options.
In CO my options are wipe out every foe, or tp past every foe. Thats it. My options for killing the trash are blast it, and my option for killing bosses is to blast it with my best single target attack.
In dishonored I can kill my foes in many ways, find the non lethal routes, and when beating the game and killing the final douche there are litterally videos out there of people showing dozens of different ways to kill that one guy.
My personal fave is waiting till the guy shoots at you, stop time, possess his body, walk over in front of his bullet, and then jump out and unfreeze time.
I like to call that the self inflicted suicide ending;)