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GC, where are you taking us post-nerfs?
toooldforthis
Posts: 117 Arc User
Gentleman Crush -
While I appreciate the work CN has done with the limited time you've been granted to deal with this game versus the revenue the current player base supports, I am greatly concerned.
Game designers are not known for a robust background in economics, and taking the monetary supply down 60-70% and the Q supply down by probably 20-30% is the single most massive economic supply shock I've ever seen in any game that hasn't had a full reset. That an action like this carries great risks for both player population and the players that remain is an understatement.
However, I'm going to leave most of the commentary on this latest round of nerfs to others.
What I am actually more interested in is something that has bugged me for a while: where do you and the rest of the devs plan on taking the game going forward, and when do we get to hear about it?
This isn't just about the longstanding complaints about the lack of content additions, or still having a huge list of bug fixes to go through, or adopting the solutions of the minority of players who frequent the forums and ask (and seem to be granted) the most radical solutions possible.
It's more that you've puzzled many of us with what you're trying to accomplish.
If it's to incent players to buy more Zen, then why not do a radical rethink of the 80% of the zen store that is essentially irrelevant (vehicles, most costumes, becomes) and the 15% of the zen store that has use but also has prices that are not consummate with reality (catalysts, boosts, devices)?
If it's to prevent players from getting rewards at rates substantially above average through farming, then where's the effort in trying to even out content rewards versus time spent playing them and actual power of the items gained versus those obtained elsewhere (lockbox, justice)?
If it's to encourage high level players to play content, then why not do simple things like recycling some of the better mid level lairs (Stronghold and Dr. D come to mind), boosting the critter levels to 40 or 41, and adding a few unique items as a reward? We all know that the coding on lairs is problematic, but changing variables on damage, level, and loot tables surely isn't going to break them entirely?
If it's to balance the rewards in alerts, then why not vary the Q, resource, and xp rewards based on the difficulty of the boss you're fighting?
If it's to add new powers to the game, then why did you spend substantial amounts of time coming up with a set of powers that any statistical snapshot of your player base would show are being entirely ignored in builds, and that gameplay has shown that they're mostly unworkable in regular content, let alone actual challenging content?
But most of all, what needs to be answered is a simple question: if you're trying to 'balance' the game, what will the game look like after you're done?
While I appreciate the work CN has done with the limited time you've been granted to deal with this game versus the revenue the current player base supports, I am greatly concerned.
Game designers are not known for a robust background in economics, and taking the monetary supply down 60-70% and the Q supply down by probably 20-30% is the single most massive economic supply shock I've ever seen in any game that hasn't had a full reset. That an action like this carries great risks for both player population and the players that remain is an understatement.
However, I'm going to leave most of the commentary on this latest round of nerfs to others.
What I am actually more interested in is something that has bugged me for a while: where do you and the rest of the devs plan on taking the game going forward, and when do we get to hear about it?
This isn't just about the longstanding complaints about the lack of content additions, or still having a huge list of bug fixes to go through, or adopting the solutions of the minority of players who frequent the forums and ask (and seem to be granted) the most radical solutions possible.
It's more that you've puzzled many of us with what you're trying to accomplish.
If it's to incent players to buy more Zen, then why not do a radical rethink of the 80% of the zen store that is essentially irrelevant (vehicles, most costumes, becomes) and the 15% of the zen store that has use but also has prices that are not consummate with reality (catalysts, boosts, devices)?
If it's to prevent players from getting rewards at rates substantially above average through farming, then where's the effort in trying to even out content rewards versus time spent playing them and actual power of the items gained versus those obtained elsewhere (lockbox, justice)?
If it's to encourage high level players to play content, then why not do simple things like recycling some of the better mid level lairs (Stronghold and Dr. D come to mind), boosting the critter levels to 40 or 41, and adding a few unique items as a reward? We all know that the coding on lairs is problematic, but changing variables on damage, level, and loot tables surely isn't going to break them entirely?
If it's to balance the rewards in alerts, then why not vary the Q, resource, and xp rewards based on the difficulty of the boss you're fighting?
If it's to add new powers to the game, then why did you spend substantial amounts of time coming up with a set of powers that any statistical snapshot of your player base would show are being entirely ignored in builds, and that gameplay has shown that they're mostly unworkable in regular content, let alone actual challenging content?
But most of all, what needs to be answered is a simple question: if you're trying to 'balance' the game, what will the game look like after you're done?
Post edited by toooldforthis on
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Is this a "wahh! I can't snipe mega-destroids at 120'" change?
No, it's a "Mega Destroids no longer give any XP or globals" complaint. It was the fastest way to get rich and the fastest leveling tool in the game, apparently.
I did one on Tuesday and still got the usual 20ish boxes.
Well you'll probably do it on Thursday and get much less than that.
NOTE: There was a patch on Thursday.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Nothing about more Q reward changes in the current FC.31.20140423.4 PTS Update (This build is scheduled to hit PTS at 3:30pm PDT, 5/6/2014). I did see them mentioned in an update before this week.
You might want to reread the post a whole lot closer - because that's not my overall concern. As it turns out, I'm actually really well positioned for a massive deflationary hit, so this change benefits me overall.
However, given the really radical changes over the last few months, the question remains as to GC's plan going forward. The only consistency in the changes is that they seem to be the easiest to implement short-term for CN, without a whole lot of rhyme or reason to thinking about what the effects are longer-term.
GC needs to come forward and talk about where he wants to take the game, because right now there are a whole lot of players with questions.
I agree.
I think it's less about their viability, and more they aren't the "press button, do all the damage" of TGM, and have mechanics that require a minimum of paying attention to.
"What?! I don't care about all the secondary effects or CC of the power! I want mega-damage RIGHT NOW!"
You might want to change who you've addressed here. Gentleman Crush had nothing to do with these recent changes, nor CO for that matter.
Saw Crowd Control and Telepathy mentioned, so I'll say this:
- Outside of stuns (which are meant to be short duration so are actually OP right now), "conventional/ intended versions of Crowd Control" are largely lack lustre. Using stuns you can control entire rooms no problem (perhaps with one incapaciderp if your finding it difficult), nothing much to discuss there.
- Control Telepathy (so no stuns) can be irritating to do in uncoordinated teams
- Offensive Telepathy is like any other powerset and simple to do.
I've said as much as I need to about this over the past years and ideas have been posted by myself and regurgitated by others so, it's just a thing which will remain an irritation.
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CO's thing is "fast paced combat", in comparison to other games I've played it does feel more immersive in terms of combat, but even then it can be slow if you want it to be.
Crowd Control is inherently SLOW (Outside of the stun taps we can do), so will always be that way until they make Ego Sleep and other AoE and control powers able to apply CC effects on tap like Bolas and remove the system in place that CC has to be a static, inactive system in terms of hold HP.
Simple really.
As a player who, on particular toons cherish CC, I tend to solo as much as I can unless I'm not allowed to solo instances.
As I've said before, it would be nice if we had a CC system which allowed CCers to be useful in Legendary + instances, but as of right now, realistically...
- We have a lot of bugs in game
- Not many people are interested in Crowd Control to start with
- It's difficult to balance as a mechanic (especially with the way powers work in CO in terms of secondary CC effects)
- There are no mandatory missions (aside from Psidewinder and a few others which can be skipped) which require you to fight Legendary + ranked foes to level
So at this point in time it is unlikely that this will change so let's not discuss this more than necessary.
As for the changes we see in game today? Well this was likely done to slow the influx of Q into the market, because frankly...right now...it's crazy.
A better solution to Resistance would be to bar vehicles from Resistance to stop the power farming OR increase Mega D attack range, either one would have curbed the issue.
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RIP Caine
I said that ages ago on forums, again a regurgitation.
I meant Control Telepathy in the sense of no stun usage. Not that there aren't any.
If only Ego Blast still placed Stun on full charge...but it disorients instead.
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I am @RavenForce in game
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Cleaned up some posts.
Gentleman_Crush is no longer with Champions.
Speaking from experience, game balance is an ongoing thing, and problems tend to be addressed based on severity and whether it coincides with what is currently being worked on. Due to various constraints solutions may not be as eloquent as we want them to be.
Resistance farming was terrible for the game's economy. It was far too easy to generate heaps of globals extremely quickly, dwindling the value of globals thus jacking up prices overall. The same could be said for Questionite farming.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with the recent power additions, as they are far from unused and perform quite well.
* throws tomato's at pony* u just dont care what the devs throw at you do ya.
They have a plan, but the only reasonable response to them not telling us what that plan is would be that revealing the plan would make the game tank.
The OP's argument has nothing to do with the Mega D farming. If you came up with that after reading his post, you are part of the problem.
Back on topic.
We are halfway through this year. Cryptic said they were excited about Champions for what was coming this year. At this point I don't think anything is going to happen, but when it does it will be too late as always.
Why bother doing the things they've been doing if not to make ready for something more down the line?
I call BS on this, that is certainly NOT "the only reasonable response", more like "the most suspicious response" possible. You seem to be operating on the principle that "No news is terrible news", and if they aren't whispering sweet words of forthcoming development at you, you immediately feel they no longer love you.
So, you're saying that because I don't use exploits to farm more globals and level alts faster than those who do, makes ME part of the problem? Really?
How about you then spell it out for the normal players who aren't involved in the high end, hush hush world of play where the veterans who really know how to get the most out of Champions Online reside?
Just remember, I've been here since Alpha and I hear about some of this junk, and don't hear about a lot more of it, mostly I imagine because I don't aim to exploit anything.
GMC isnt in charge of Champions Online or Cryptic North. He gets moved about between all Cryptic's games to where he is needed at that point in time.
We gotta end this culture we have here of blaming Crush for EVERYTHING /o/
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the PWE Community Rules and Policies -Smackwell
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
correct, we should all blame Nepht, after all she is out to Conquer all. She is so mean and evil, she won't even allow unicorn cookies at Conquer.
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The reason why for a healthy economy you want a few percent inflation every year, is that it makes people spend/invest their money, in stead of just having a ton and not having to do anything with it. And since we can't have 5 or 10 or more years to get somewhere in a game, inflation needs to be much higher than it would be in real life. Making globals more valuable at this point in the game, will only play into the hands of people who have lots of it already.
But yeah PvP wise here in CO his final addition of mind break powers and "fixing" unbreakable to the point it can now be rotated with MD for god mode but the only thing that isn't affected by unbreakable is mind break (or shadow strike)... Yeah even our casual PvP in CO died with that. :<
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
Buahahahaha.... PvP died long before Crush got near it. Just people refused to believe that.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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You're not going to get a healthy economy printing money. Prices were already beginning to rise. The game already suffered a massive globals exploit that took years to recover from. While this one wasn't nearly as bad it was becoming wildly popular and would have lead to ruin.
What this game needs now is some serious money sinks to help get rid of the built up false globals. Auction Fees and respecs are not solutions. Too much money is being generated and not enough taken out of circulation.
What other sorts of services could you offer for Globals that won't cut (too much) into the Zen services?
One thing *I*, speaking only for myself, could see is a Globals to Experience transaction. The people out farming the exploitish mobs weren't playing the normal leveling game anyways. Drop enough Globals and you could go from 6 to 40 (all while not generating any additional Globals).
But that's a drastic measure as just the mere existence would piss off a lot of people that *need* other people to "work" (even if it is super fast exploit level work) to level their character.
The game never recovered from the globals exploit.
What would be an acceptable and effective way to drain globals? For a new game I could think of a few ways, for CO with enough people having well above 50k globals, I can't think of anything that would be effective and close to "fair".
What kind of useful stuff, and how much G would those cost to be an effective sink?
Tax the wealthy. x3
Spend the tax revenue on infrastructure and heal and buff devices for silvers.
Completely recovered? Perhaps not, but it's come a *long* way. If it's to continue to get better, these sorts of exploits need to be stamped out, not coveted.
Time and moneysinks will drain the abundant globals. Originally this game was supposed to have repair costs, this should return.
I ran Resistance solo prior to the recent changes to clear it from my mission queue and somehow managed to get both xp and resources by destroying the control consoles as the destroids were "powering up" as indicated by the white text flashing across my screen indicating startup. By taking out the console prior to the destroid leaving it's charging platform and indicating it was "online" (quotes used as I forget the exact text) it would fall over defeated like a regular mob and even had a few drop secondaries.
How is this an exploit since I as a player was instructed to do this by the game in order to take out said mobs? I decided to attempt to fight a free standing one and summarily had my backside handed to me hence the choice to follow directions given by the game. Unless there is another destroid exploit people were using.
That can be a different flavor but there are two issues anyone with a lick of strategy will point out. Dead Enemies > Stunned/Held Enemies and the inability to do anything of significance to bosses makes it even more situational and less useful.
That was not the exploit in question per se. There was a specific way you generally had to go about it to make the effect they got rid of to happen.
Almost non of those globals have actually been removed from the game, they just changed hands. The recovering part is mostly people who hold a lot of globals quitting the game. But they have and still do affect AH/trading prices greatly. Without past exploits asking >5k for semi rare costume drops would never have happened.
Small global sinks at this point will hardly do anything, since we can't actually have repaircost or any other required global sink be higher than the amount of globals the game gives out. Causing an deflation in prices and global gains is about the worst thing that can happen to the in game economy at this point, we need exactly the opposite. Since we can't realistically remove a significant part of the old globals from the game, they need to lose a significant part of their worth.
And I think a big inflation in resource drops and prices would only really work and be acceptable when tied into an level cap increase. So get to work cryptic.
You know, like I've been begging for since free to play launched.
If we're going to combat this kind of inflation, the only viable option I see is leveling the playing field a bit. We will NEVER hit a point where the most expensive items cost 250g. Even in game that's highly unrealistic, since it's pretty laughably easy to farm to cap on a silver account. And it's especially important to sort out something like this, because right now we're tying the worth of our g to the worth of keys. Keys are a solid commodity, and therefore necessary for silver players to play in our economy without an increased cap. Unfortunately, that means that as keys increase in price, we're basically accidentally debasing our own currency. Lots of other goods increase to match, especially in the middle to top end, since the silvers have to buy the keys. I know if I have to pay 150g to buy a thing, I'm not acting like it's worth 100 in trade. buy 2 of em, you just threw away 100g, or you made the value of real G that much lower, since at this point we might as well be running a key based economy half of the time.
I feel like removing the cheap farming is a good start, but it's a band aid. It's time Cryptic realized that silvers cannot and will never be able to play in the high end economy with that cap. And any bandaids clever players figure out to work around it will without fail have a destabilizing effect on the economy. We're reaping the rewards of that right now, it's pretty obvious prices in the AH have skyrocketed over the last few months. I'm a bit more aware of this than most, because I lost my internet for 3 months. Stuff is WAY more expensive right now.
IMO, this is the only true fix.
RIP Caine
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Well it worked out pretty good up until his move, why bother stopping now?
Because remember that PVP outrage that the PvP update never got finished and we were left with no gear and borked Q's. Many off us raged till we were blue in the face at GMC ( and his comments about Pvpers didnt help :P ) .
Turned out it wasnt the chaps fault it was his bosses pulling him away. Consider this Crush as talented as he is he is only in his early to mid 20's , he aint gonna be in charge of ANYTHING at that age ( though talking to the chap I reckon he'd do a better job than his bosses :P )
Its just wrong to blame him.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Read: PvPers are butthurt by the truth
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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GC was the one who started vehicles as a personal project that got noticed by the heads and was eventually pushed as a prime feature of the game despite how worthless it was for the game as a whole.
If GC would have worked on something involving advancing character mechanics or worked on maybe power replacers being updated, we would have had those instead.
He was also the one in charge of updating Hero Games.
I think its entirely valid to blame him for at least these things.
Erm he wasnt in charge and doesnt start anything, he does what hes told by the higher ups. , he has ideas that he runs pass who ever is in charge he starts on them never gets to finish. Anyway now hes back in NEVERWINTER.
He isnt even working on CO right now and for the OP to say Crush where are you taking CO is just down right misguided as Crush doesnt have the clout to take CO anywhere. The rage aimed at him in this thread is misguided . Leave the guy alone U__U
Like I said the dudes in Neverwinter..not even working on Champions. Shouting at the wrong peoples here.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Let's just blame LordGar.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
IMO, as with all things, it was done to slow down leveling on Silvers, and to starve them specifically on Q. The free-to-play players would start a character, blaze it 40 using the Mega-D exploit, look around, then leave because there wasn't anything else to do. They skipped the entirety of the game. There would be no Zen purchases coming in, no AT's or Freeforms being bought, no vehicles being picked up.
The Q theory bears out with how high the exchange has gotten: an attempt to bleed the market dry of excess Q floating around from Silvers converting it to cash-free Zen, and buying all the content.
If you're Gold or Lifetime, you have your allowance. You wait a month (your allowance plus the amount from dailies) to get that new shiny, and Cryptic still makes a profit.
Silvers have no obligation to contribute or purchase. Now they do.
we should fell sorry for him,
more classes per update,
constant complaints about class imbalances.
we should send him a big packet of Minties
heres some of the cartoons on them
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=minties+cartoons&client=firefox-a&hs=may&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=fflb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=18JuU-H1M4eakgXu_oCQAw&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=620
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