test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Tokens: Cryptic, You're Doing it Wrong
falchoin
Posts: 383 Arc User
Tokens are great. They let us see progress towards a goal, whether that's new gear, costumes or whatever. The Silver Champion Recognition tokens were easy (albeit boring) to get from UNTIL and UNTIL 2 missions, or lair boss fights. It was great in that you knew you could spend some time running those UNTIL missions and get 35 tokens. The UNTIL recognition and lower sets were a bit more annoying but even they had guaranteed drops from level appropriate open missions.
Now come the rampages with their randomly dropped tokens at the end of a successful 10-man alert. Maybe I'm just crazy but I really dislike this system. To me, tokens should have at least one source of a guaranteed drop. Yes, the token requirement to buy the justice gear would need to increase as well but at least we could get some sense of progression for each rampage completed.
Please Cryptic, ditch the RNG on rampage tokens and increase the number of tokens required per justice gear piece.
Now come the rampages with their randomly dropped tokens at the end of a successful 10-man alert. Maybe I'm just crazy but I really dislike this system. To me, tokens should have at least one source of a guaranteed drop. Yes, the token requirement to buy the justice gear would need to increase as well but at least we could get some sense of progression for each rampage completed.
Please Cryptic, ditch the RNG on rampage tokens and increase the number of tokens required per justice gear piece.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Post edited by falchoin on
0
Comments
It pains me when someone mentions the 50+ runs they've done, and then I mention that I've done about 10 and have over twice as many tokens as they do. It does not make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
/signed
While she has been rescued
what diabolical mastermind
was behind the devious brain-napping of
the Volterrific Dr Cerebellum?
I can't even believe the drop rate is 10% because mathematically even if I were to lowball it, I shoudl have 4 or 5 tokens at the very least by now.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
1) Yes, get rid of the randomness of the token drops.
2) Increase the amount needed for the gear, but not a ridiculous amount because of item 3.
3) Limit the number of tokens that can be earned in a day.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
And how many token subtypes are the for those .. 4 plus the drifter salvage?
Or am I reading the drifter wrong .. 1 would do it's all you need
(Do we need to be surprised when one token sub-type is super rare?)
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
3. No please. Effort = Effort. If someone wants to stretch that effort out over time then that's their deal. If someone wants to just grindcore to get it over with then that should be their deal also. Keep in mind some people will want this Justice junk for a metric TON of alts(not me).
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
If I'm able to beat the alert successfully, I don't see why I have to roll a die to see if I get my reward or not, that being the tokens.
I don't see how it assists the pay2win argument since Justice gear is not absolutely necessary for doing even the hardest content in this game. The pay2win argument has never been one that I took seriously at all ever since people started using the same logic for Legion gear.
Well Legion Gear and Justice gear do give an advantage, even if people see it as only slight. And the only way to get either is having to spend real money towards other items in the game. And while people maybe able to buy Justice gear from others with their in game resources those items still had to use real money (no idea how much as it's a chance per key so it could be as cheap as $1 or as much as $25 give or take luck). And then there is the Drifter Salvage, 10 each per Justice gear piece. And since Justice gear is Bind on Pickup, that means that people actually ahve to get the keys to unlock justice gear. So barring luck on getting a few of those +10 boxes.. for 30 pieces of justice gear that can be anywhere from $6 to as much as $25 depending on how bad your luck is.
It strikes hard against the it's not pay2win argument because the justice gear will provide a noticeable advantage against those without it that actually could use the bonuses.
And let's not get into the vehicle arguments where the drifter store vehicles which can require significant amounts of salvage (and cash), tend to be better than the ones you buy straight from the C-Store.
And it still doesn't answer the question, why not use the questionite instead? Questionite right now is so painfully under used compared to either STO or Neverwinter, so why do they keep reinventing the wheel and putting in mroe currency types instead of using that one, that we also have painfully few ways to gather it.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Yes, there are indisputable advantages when it comes to Legion / Justice gear over Heroic and your standard purples, but it's still not pay2win. The current game content does not increase your risk of failure so dramatically when you aren't equipped with such gear that you'd feel utterly compelled to get them. When a piece of gear or even vehicles becomes absolutely crucial for completing certain content then it'd definitely be pay2win.
From a business standpoint? Drifter salvage is assured sales. Questionite is not.
If you must have a guarantee somewhere in the game, make 1 token drop at the end of a UNITY chain based on what the end mission is.
/signed
The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.
It's not an incentive to play rampages if you are unlucky.
Even more, as we are supposed to spend some money on the salvage. If you are unlucky, you have no incentive to spend any money on keys to get the salvage.
If it was made to generate income for the game, then the whole RNG thing is counterproductive.
What gives?
I currently have a little over 50 Drifter Salvage in my shared bank.
None of that Drifter Salvage was paid for with cash from me.
NONE.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I could live with this too, but I would personally prefer a guaranteed drop from a rampage completion. I'm not a big fan of the UNITY mission chains and I like most of the rampages. A guaranteed drop vs a random one (especially with the apparent low chances we have now) would be a much greater incentive to run the rampages. While I can't speak for others, I know I would not run the rampages unless asked by friends if we could get a token per UNITY mission chain.
Why cause there is not enough incentive to do it now? There is more to the Rampages than just the tickets. Collect that other stuff, sell what you dont want, use the Gs you make to buy drifter boxes, key, and/or lockboxes and get your salvage numbers up for when you finally get enough tokens to get the gear.
And what about people who have done these alerts several dozen times and have yet to get more than 1 or even none from some people I've heard? random chance is never a good design.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Its not a good thing, just trying to spin it into something productive. I am one of those people who have done it dozens of times.
I ran Fire and Ice over 20 times and had 1 token drop.
I thought Sky Command would have been different because the first time I ran it I got a token drop, now over 20 more runs later I have not had any more drop. The Devs know that the drop rates suck. We told them over and over in PTS. It is obvious that they don't care, and that they are dropping like they wanted. So complaining won't do anything.
"Just because it's so fun." isn't an incentive. Because ANYTHING palls with repetition over time.
Making reward drops of tokens random on stuff like this is a MASSIVE disincentive to continue to play these things. Because you're at the mercy of the RNG.
If people are going to put the time and effort into these events, they deserve to be rewarded.
If that means changing the equipment cost structures, then so be it.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Considering how little variety there is in gear the higher up you go, RNG in CO is nothing more than a mild irritation.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Personally I think it would have been better to set it up like the Adventure packs where you get the tokens and buy stuff from a store. You were guaranteed tokens and had a list of things to pick from. Instead of having everything be a drop, though I guess they did have a couple of things be drops in those too.
Otherwise, many people will just decide it's not worth their time and effort to be shafted by an RNG.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
While it may be the "centerpiece" of the new rampage system, the gear is not at all required for any game content. While it may provide a greater boost to those who like to min/max and/or pvp, again it is not necessary. As for the RNG being horrible, sure. It took me 175+ runs over the three days of Fire and Ice to gather all the six tokens I needed. Sure, it was a grind but I put in the effort and was eventually rewarded. As for those who prefer to space our their time, the RNG serves as an (admittedly) crappy incentive to continue playing but nonetheless an incentive. As for it being a guaranteed drop, I have to disagree only because the equipment serves as the (of-now) highest tier equipment available. Put in some crazy amount of work (or be really lucky) and you shall inherit the earth.
@Remok
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
It's rewarding for those who persevere. While it may not be your preferred/the best system as the the drop rate is low, it does ensure that not everyone will immediately gain access to the gear (even with the 12 days of farming). It'll keep people playing (and farming) until (hopefully) something new comes out.
Justice Gear is/will be the best gear so why shouldn't it be rather (if not extremely) difficult for folks to get? Again, such gear is not needed for any content.
@Remok
Now, if it had some set cosmic high set cost in tokens, like playing through 10000 runs or more to gather all - that's pure perseverance. :biggrin:
I disagree, it rewards those who are lucky. Theoretically someone could run each of the rampages 6 times and get all the requisite tokens. There's no perserverence in that case. On the flip side, someone might never get a token drop. No matter how much they "perservere" they might never get access to justice gear.
While justice gear is not required for any content, I do not think random chance on tokens is the best way to go about acquiring it.
EDIT (in response to Falc):
"Theoretically" sure but it ain't going to happen.
@Remok
Actually I'd say perserverence and being unlucky go hand in hand in this.
And I'm sure *someone* will get stupidly lucky and get all their tokens without much need for perserverence. At this point I feel like I'm on the opposite end.
Were they to leave pricing at 6 tokens, I'd agree with you.
I'd feel better about a higher price of purchase, with guaranteed drops and a random chance for an extra drop here and there.
The idea of running 150-200 runs and just hoping you're lucky enough to get a 3.5% return is BS. Yes, there are people who'll run 10-20, get lucky and be done.
There'll be others who, after hundreds of runs, STILL won't be able to amass enough tokens.
That kind of distribution method is utter crap.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
It has nothing to do with perseverance and everything to do with luck. You're acting as if you EARNED the tokens by grinding. You didn't. You were GIFTED by the RNG and nothing more.
If your luck with the RNG was such that you had to go 6-12 months before amassing 6 tokens, would you be so sanguine about it?
Random can mean "randomly lucky". It can also mean "randomly unlucky" as well.
I'm not saying "I want to be able to play it 6-10 times and be done."
I'm saying I want an option where I can actually EARN the items instead of praying that the RNG happens to like me.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
I did 175+ runs to get all 6. Did those between two days. I persevered.
I would have kept grinding those tokens for however long it took me to get all 6. We have yet to see a case where it would take months to accumulate the said six token from Fire and Ice only because it has only been around for a few days. If you were to play on a daily basis or even a semi-weekly and you land a token from that one to two hour of play, congratulations!
I'm really curious as to the existence of those who have landed all six tokens with a few runs. Doubt it.
We're all assuming things here, that the RNG is that horrible where it will take months for the person with the worst luck to get one. Maybe that's the case if you do a Rampage run a day but then again why would that person even want to care about having the best gear when Heroic is good enough? Why not just stick with the easily farm-able gear? After all, if you're that casual, I wouldn't expect (that is I am assuming) that player to care about min-maxing.
@Remok
What, IMO, was grossly overlooked in the design/delivery model for Auras was the alt-centric aspects of CO. Now sure, some people are froobs with 1-2 toons and some people are main-centric diehards who have had that one special hero since 2008/2009...but I would wager a good portion of the playerbase are ballparking in at roughly 5-10 toons at least(pure guesswork number, there will be no data to support this).
So F&I had the Private Queues running all out and the PUGs were launching at a pretty even stream this time...but this is the 1st time. Let's say you're aiming to deck out 10 toons. What happens the next time? Less people but still doable? How about the next time? Maybe talk your friends into 3-4 runs before they tap? I'm saying that with the current drop rates in place for F&I that the average gamer will burn out from "winning but losing" far quicker than they would with a more precise definable goal in front of them. I'm saying that you might get a toon or two decked out in this stuff but for the person who wants it all for their stable of heroes...the longer this goes on the less likely that goal is to be realized.
Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not this person. I have like 40ish toons and I am currently working to get ONE Justice PO for my main because I have ONE DU Core. So far I'm right on schedule having obtained my 2 tokens from each rampage. I, personally, think that in most cases either pure Heroic or Heroic + Slug PU with R5-7 Mods(5 being the base, 7 being the "done" goal) are more than enough to handle the job in PvE. In PvP, well I'll admit I used to be a PvPer but I've barely touched the scene since On Alert hit but I have friends who manage to handle themselves well enough without R9s and all that stuff so I believe it to be possible. Perhaps not ideal...but possible.
I'm just pointing out in this post that I do not think the scope of this was properly thought out. That the measuring stick was set for a toon vs. alts. I believe that, given 2-3 months, this sytem will revert to people in zonechat going,"Please queue for X, we need the people."
I just think it's something to consider in all of this.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Because it makes me feel like a special boy. But in all seriousness, the reason why I've been posting my own opinions and replying to others is that I think it works. If you're lucky, you're lucky. If you grind the gears, you grind the gears. The drop rate isn't unfair, it's just low. I feel that most of these posts are simply rehashes of disappointment with Champs and an relentless need to complain. I went through "hell and back" and so did others.
Isn't Justice Gear going to be available to those who have acquired the drops (through luck, RNG, perseverance)? What equals the same amount of work? You seem to be bringing in different questions that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. Back in the day, I used to run TT every day in order to get the various costume pieces. I ended up having to buy all of them. What's your point? I put in the same effort as my teammates who ended up getting the drops.
It's not a terrible idea but I do feel it's unnecessary. The system isn't perfect but it works.
EDIT (in response to Cross): It does feel that these Rampages were not meant for the average gamer. But anyway, even those who are altaholics, I doubt would feel the need to grind out the -best- gear for all their toons, given that being an altaholic, one moves on to a new concept/character rather quickly after leveling to 40, I assume? (That sentence is a bit cluttered, bear with me).
@Remok
There's room for improvement in -everything-. Unfortunately, not everything is going to be improved. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" comes to mind here. The system makes the "endgame reward" that much more worthwhile, in my mind, as a min/maxer.
I can concede to the fact that a guaranteed drop is not a bad idea but then what would happen after that? Would people want more -guarantees- that they can acquire something totally unnecessary for game play and enjoyment? "Oh hey, I did twenty runs, now give me my gear."
I feel that this is becoming a case of unadulterated want. By the end of it all, it'll just be "gib me errthang".
@Remok
Did you switch up the response? Preeetty sure this was meant for the other forum topic.
Nope, they all fall under the same tree especially since there are alternative to Justice Gear that have existed for the longest time with no complaint. One could argue that Dark Speed's great for direct character improvement as it grants a character an extra TP and allows for one to say take teleport and super jump.
@Remok
I hate not knowing whether I'm wasting my time that run or not. That's the crux of the matter to me. Do you like that you spent roughly 28 hours (169 runs @ ~10 min per run) of your life in rampages that did nothing to get you closer to your goal of 6 tokens?
At this point I don't cheer if I get a token at the completion of a rampage alert. I breathe a sigh of relief because the RNG deigned to grant me a token. In my opinion that means there is a flaw in the system.
The tokens should be a guaranteed drop from the Rampage and not luck of the draw. Luck of the draw all but ensures people will eventually get tired of doing Rampages because there is no surity of a token drop.
The other thing is get rid of the Drifter salvage requirement. Yes, it ensures that you guys get to make a profit because you're requiring people who want to progress their characters to purchase the stupid lockboxes to get the even dumber Drifter Salvage. You could even replace the Drifter Salvage with Silver Champion Stars. That would give people a reason to run Unity missions.
There are better ways to do this and not screw your customers over in the process.
Character progression comes from the almighty Justice Gear. If the DS requirement is such an issue, stick with the Heroic gear or obtain the G's for legion gear.
The DS requirement has been talked to death and this particular debate is also reaching its end.
@Remok