Blocking Ao's Life Drain will stop the healing from that power. His Devour Essence heals him through your blocking so you have to move out of range. He's honestly one of my favorite fights right now because it he's not just a big sack of HP.
I'm not sure I see why he's not a big sack of HP. He's kind of the biggest sack of HP for the normal alerts is all. What we're seeing is that you need a team and some specific builds and he's easy. Play him in a PUG without having the tools yourself and it's a game of Russian roulette.
Around the time Nocturnal was put into the game the shadowform bug was acknowledge, I can't find that dev post though and the dev tracker hasn't worked since, well I don't remember the last time it was used for anything.
This would be a good point for one of our CMs to acknowledge if it is or is not a bug at this point though.
This is why I was upset that you can't post in old threads. Stuff like that gets buried.
I'm not sure I see why he's not a big sack of HP. He's kind of the biggest sack of HP for the normal alerts is all. What we're seeing is that you need a team and some specific builds and he's easy. Play him in a PUG without having the tools yourself and it's a game of Russian roulette.
To be honest anyone can kill AO'q with the most squishyist of AT's without blocking. Spam Skarn's Bane while the dps'rs do their thing and the dudes toast.
Grimores are his Kryptonite.
Now excuse while I get back to leveling up my annoying Metrosexual Emo and his badass one armed ghost friend. * bonus points if you guess what ps3 game i just got imported \o/ *
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I'm not sure I see why he's not a big sack of HP. He's kind of the biggest sack of HP for the normal alerts is all. What we're seeing is that you need a team and some specific builds and he's easy. Play him in a PUG without having the tools yourself and it's a game of Russian roulette.
Taking into consideration that every player has the "tools" to take down Ao, I don't see what the issue is. Every player can block and every player can move.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
To be honest anyone can kill AO'q with the most squishyist of AT's without blocking. Spam Skarn's Bane while the dps'rs do their thing and the dudes toast.
Grimores are his Kryptonite.
Which I would be pleased with if the poor old grimore didn't need to hit level 27 to be useful in an alert that you can queue at level 10. That's a full 16 levels of not being helpful.
Taking into consideration that every player has the "tools" to take down Ao, I don't see what the issue is. Every player can block and every player can move.
So you'd say that a team of level 10s as 12s could take him out?
So you'd say that a team of level 10s as 12s could take him out?
Level 10's have no place in the AO'q alert , its meant for higher levels. People wanting to power level lowbies should sit that one out. There is already a gate for that alert its called common sense.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Level 10's have no place in the AO'q alert , its meant for higher levels. People wanting to power level lowbies should sit that one out. There is already a gate for that alert its called common sense.
While I agree to most of this the problem is that common sense is only a useful gate if people know about him. People new to the game who suddenly gain access to the alert system aren't going to know the hurt and futility that clicking on Ao's is going to reveal to them.
Level 10's have no place in the AO'q alert , its meant for higher levels. People wanting to power level lowbies should sit that one out. There is already a gate for that alert its called common sense.
Just ran an Ao' Museum Heist PUG tonight. 40 (me), 39, 19, 13, 11. Had one Devour Essence burst-heal early on, then we just ground him down after the two melee toons figured it out. I was rangetanking and soaking up the Drain Life casts with my block. If the 39 had Skarn's Bane, I didn't catch it. Not exactly five 10s, but with three toons in the teens and me blocking a lot, we still weren't hurting for DPS enough to get out-healed.
I still wouldn't tackle an Ao' burst without five pipe-hitting level 40 Blasters, at least two keeping Skarn's Bane hot at all times. I'd love to see the spreadsheet behind that alert, if Crush has one. Probably has a note on it that once read "Demo Nocturne bug? Investigate", but it's been smeared by potato chip grease into illegibility.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
You need to move with Gravitar as well, and as I said I don't mind Gravitar, but she does have bunch of unique powers not existing powers that don't work as they should. I also don't care for Rakshasa for this exact same reason. I want villains to follow the same rules we do. If they're higher level with more hit points dealing higher damage that's fine, if they have existing powers that don't function they way they do for us then I get upset.
There is nothing in the game that warns you that Ao' is for higher levels or DPSers only, or warns you that he can heal himself though the blocks, and so I really feel he's a determent to the game in Bursts and Grabs.
Well they're villains... they don't follow the rules... kind of their thing you know? :biggrin:
So you'd say that a team of level 10s as 12s could take him out?
What's funny is for everyone whose NOT tanking Ao, he's one of the easiest fights and the only difficulty is having the min req dps and a aggro-holder that knows to block/run. Everyone else just gets to wail on him and take maybe occasional ticks from condemn aoe.
I mean, at that lvl, ViperX's mines will slaughter melee, Mindslayer's no-charge warning EBB and pretty much every charge move Jack Fool has can one-shot lowbies (even through block). Then there's Kev Poe's 4k base dps aoe shadow embrace, and Freon's high dmg + killer shatters. Draconis' instant force detonations, Hrodegeir's cleave combo, Rakshasa's worm pack spam of doom, Hawke's 4x gas arrow + quick charged shot while ur stunned, Baron's no-charge warning reflective block that can kill dps before they even blink, Valerian's hyper-supped up circle of primal dominion, and so on.
Just ran an Ao' Museum Heist PUG tonight. 40 (me), 39, 19, 13, 11. Had one Devour Essence burst-heal early on, then we just ground him down after the two melee toons figured it out. I was rangetanking and soaking up the Drain Life casts with my block. If the 39 had Skarn's Bane, I didn't catch it. Not exactly five 10s, but with three toons in the teens and me blocking a lot, we still weren't hurting for DPS enough to get out-healed.
I still wouldn't tackle an Ao' burst without five pipe-hitting level 40 Blasters, at least two keeping Skarn's Bane hot at all times. I'd love to see the spreadsheet behind that alert, if Crush has one. Probably has a note on it that once read "Demo Nocturne bug? Investigate", but it's been smeared by potato chip grease into illegibility.
The 13 and 11 are brutal but at least everyone else had all 3 super stats. The one I had (and the one that cause me to start this thread) I was a level 39 might tank and I think the second highest was 26 or so, everyone else was in their teens.
What's funny is for everyone whose NOT tanking Ao, he's one of the easiest fights and the only difficulty is having the min req dps and a aggro-holder that knows to block/run. Everyone else just gets to wail on him and take maybe occasional ticks from condemn aoe.
I mean, at that lvl, ViperX's mines will slaughter melee, Mindslayer's no-charge warning EBB and pretty much every charge move Jack Fool has can one-shot lowbies (even through block). Then there's Kev Poe's 4k base dps aoe shadow embrace, and Freon's high dmg + killer shatters. Draconis' instant force detonations, Hrodegeir's cleave combo, Rakshasa's worm pack spam of doom, Hawke's 4x gas arrow + quick charged shot while ur stunned, Baron's no-charge warning reflective block that can kill dps before they even blink, Valerian's hyper-supped up circle of primal dominion, and so on.
Oh, thanks for reminding me of the Baron, he's another dude I don't like. Usually if I keep using a crippling challenge he won't use that block reflect thing but then every now and then he'll do it anyways. However it is a unique power so it's not as if I can say that's not working as intended. I think that's the bit that bothers me the most.
Around the time Nocturnal was put into the game the shadowform bug was acknowledge, I can't find that dev post though and the dev tracker hasn't worked since, well I don't remember the last time it was used for anything.
This would be a good point for one of our CMs to acknowledge if it is or is not a bug at this point though.
I'm not sure I see why he's not a big sack of HP. He's kind of the biggest sack of HP for the normal alerts is all. What we're seeing is that you need a team and some specific builds and he's easy. Play him in a PUG without having the tools yourself and it's a game of Russian roulette.
This is why I was upset that you can't post in old threads. Stuff like that gets buried.
I know your Anger and Believe me I Sympathized with HOW BS AO-QEPHOTH IS!
It wasn;t only Demosele Nocturne, NEMESIS WITH DARKNESS was also Bugged and healing like CRAZY! But they Fixed both in the same time!
They also fixed the Devour Essence on Infernal/Default nemesis crap (Lilith, heavy metal e.t.c) which was ALSO healing like Crazy
and THEN there this MOFO Ao-Qephoth, they haven't Nerf him or Fixed him like the previous bosses and let him go around like he owns the Place!
Yesterday I retcon one of my FF power's to Grab the Scarn's Bane to deal with him Pyramid of Power!
I was spamming Scarn's Bane all the time to get rid of his Shadow Form... just for him to HEAL A WHOLE HEALTH BAR WITH DEVOUR ESSENCE ON THE MELEE TANK!
also Blocking on his DEVOUR ESSENCE is not working, he stills heals!
THIS GUYS SHOULD NOT EXIST!
Never in my whole life I have hated with such passion a Videogame Boss like that!
I have Nothing against the Create-a-Villain concept winners, but Ao-Qephoth makes me wish he was NEVER CREATED
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
So you'd say that a team of level 10s as 12s could take him out?
If played carefully, yes.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I still find it irritating that the same rules don't apply. I also have to wonder if that's by design or are we seeing bugs?
I would much rather have bosses break the rules for player characters than just have more HP and bigger hits. If you think about it we break the rules for bosses all of the time. When was the last time a boss had access to an AI comparable to a player ?
not always. it depends on the character builds present.
"Played carefully" in this case most likely implies both build knowledge and player headspace. A full team of people with bad builds and/or don't know what they're really doing will perform miserably on bosses like Jack Fool and Ao'. A full team of people who know how to play their build/AT to the fullest and know how to handle the tougher Alert bosses will have less problems.
I would much rather have bosses break the rules for player characters than just have more HP and bigger hits. If you think about it we break the rules for bosses all of the time. When was the last time a boss had access to an AI comparable to a player ?
What I'd prefer is unique powers with unique animations rather then existing powers that are broken. If bosses are going to different then regular heroes then the learning curve shouldn't include broken powers as there's usually no indication (unless you take the time to read over the combat logs) that they're functioning different.
not always. it depends on the character builds present.
A team of five experienced players leveling their shiny new alts, who already know the gimmicks of whatever "cheap" alert boss they're fighting, should be able to handle any alert in the game. The margin for error comes from PUGging with an inexperienced player who's never fought that boss before and keeps feeding Ao's heals, attacking Cimetiere's reflecting block, or cussing in local about Rakshasa's threat wipe instead of retargeting.
I hate to reduce this to a "L2P, NOOB" argument, but for some bosses, well... L2P, NOOB. Or L!2P, NOOB, in the case of an Ao' Burst, because it's broken.
So when* the CO Wiki comes back, we definitely need a section for alert boss guides, if there wasn't one already.
*: And we do mean "when", right, LordGar?
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
"Played carefully" in this case most likely implies both build knowledge and player headspace. A full team of people with bad builds and/or don't know what they're really doing will perform miserably on bosses like Jack Fool and Ao'. A full team of people who know how to play their build/AT to the fullest and know how to handle the tougher Alert bosses will have less problems.
Most other bosses you can zerg rush. You only need one hero up and fighting to prevent a reset of the HP. A terrible team can be pulled though most alerts by one experienced player. Ao' seems to be the opposite. One terrible player (that doesn't know there is a shift key) or someone with lag issues could hinder an entire group of competent to experienced players.
So when* the CO Wiki comes back, we definitely need a section for alert boss guides, if there wasn't one already.
*: And we do mean "when", right, LordGar?
Right, I don't mind a learning curve to games, but I also think games need some indications in game that an Ao' encounter is going to be drastically different from most other fights in the alert system. When there's no resources to help support new players even if they want to learn I feel that bosses like Ao' are extremely counter productive. Let's all hope that the wiki returns soon.
I would much rather have bosses break the rules for player characters than just have more HP and bigger hits. If you think about it we break the rules for bosses all of the time. When was the last time a boss had access to an AI comparable to a player ?
Yeah really. I'll complain about bosses breaking the rules the day that a boss rotates active defenses that make them practically invincible, and then the moment we actually start doing damage to them they pop Ascension and just fly circles around us and spam Ebon Ruin, and then call in a tactical strike from a jet.....and then, when they land and we run up to hit them they hit Evasive Manuevers and disappear and just teleport away...and then they show up a minute later and one shot somebody in the party with shadow strike.
Or heck, if a boss was even able to kite us just by moving around.
Most other bosses you can zerg rush. You only need one hero up and fighting to prevent a reset of the HP. A terrible team can be pulled though most alerts by one experienced player. Ao' seems to be the opposite. One terrible player (that doesn't know there is a shift key) or someone with lag issues could hinder an entire group of competent to experienced players.
You keep insisting that Ao' is some sort of nigh insurmountable beast of a boss yet everyone keeps pointing out that players are by far the biggest reason he is able to tank a full group of people in alerts. His Devour Essense heals through a block? Then move out of it's range. His Life Drain heals him a ton? It can be blocked, start doing so. His Shadow Form heals him periodically? His passive healing can be overcome by a variety of means. The only thing preventing any of this from happening are players. Players that won't move out of the fire, won't utilize their arsenal correctly and/or won't place something between his attacks and their own face to keep it from being melted off.
Not every boss should be able to be taken down via zerg tactics(if you can even call "attack, faceplant, rinse and repeat" an actual tactic) and it's nice to have one that requires people to pay attention in order to defeat it.
In short: Ao' isn't broken and doesn't need to be fixed or removed. Players that won't adjust how they approach this boss fight need to be fixed or removed.
It was just yesterday that I queue'd up for an Ao' Radiation Rumble alert and watched him get annihilated in about sixty seconds. Mine was the highest level character in the alert, the rest were between 28 and 31. I sure as hell wasn't carrying the group either, everyone knew their stuff. People blocked, the tank kept moving to minimize DE's effects and Active Offenses were used. Put a grin on my face.
I know it's an anecdote but it's one that happens often and not just in groups I happen to be in. So you'll just have to forgive me if I can't take your difficulty "feedback" seriously on this. Or, at all.
It was just yesterday that I queue'd up for an Ao' Radiation Rumble alert and watched him get annihilated in about sixty seconds. Mine was the highest level character in the alert, the rest were between 28 and 31. I sure as hell wasn't carrying the group either, everyone knew their stuff. People blocked, the tank kept moving to minimize DE's effects and Active Offenses were used. Put a grin on my face.
I know it's an anecdote but it's one that happens often and not just in groups I happen to be in. So you'll just have to forgive me if I can't take your difficulty "feedback" seriously on this. Or, at all.
You probably had a skarn's user in the group. Only way that would happen in an Ao Rad rumble w/o pimped lvl 40s popping backups.
Burst Ao's passive shadowfeast is broken. Ao everywhere else is pretty much fine as is.
I've beaten Ao in Radiation Rumble as well, no gimmicks just good playing. Yes, Rad Rumble Ao is a step up from Grab or Smash Ao, but that gas/radiation should be doing something to him right?
It's really just Pyramid Power where he's ridiculously pumped. Pyramid Power Ao would take over the world if we actually had to stop him... luckily for us, when we run away he's content to just go back to his lair and play tiddlywinks.
I've beaten Ao in Radiation Rumble as well, no gimmicks just good playing. Yes, Rad Rumble Ao is a step up from Grab or Smash Ao, but that gas/radiation should be doing something to him right?
Don't have much an issue w/ the abilities he uses. But last time I read the log for 200k+ shadowfeasts it was from a rad rumble, not a pyramid power. I actually think those numbers are similar in both bursts, but that'd need to be checked in-game.
You keep insisting that Ao' is some sort of nigh insurmountable beast of a boss yet everyone keeps pointing out that players are by far the biggest reason he is able to tank a full group of people in alerts.
Um . . . that was sort of the point of the post you quoted. What I was saying is one bad player, in theory, could make the mission unbeatable for everyone else. I've also said repeatedly now that I think him not using exciting powers as they function for everyone else is unfair because it means that he's fallowing unique special rules without any indication that he's doing so. This is unfair to the players and helps compound the knowledge gap.
Players that don't know how this monster works are at a huge disadvantage, more so then maybe any other villain in the game, but I don't I said anywhere that he's insurmountable.
Um . . . that was sort of the point of the post you quoted. What I was saying is one bad player, in theory, could make the mission unbeatable for everyone else. I've also said repeatedly now that I think him not using exciting powers as they function for everyone else is unfair because it means that he's fallowing unique special rules without any indication that he's doing so. This is unfair to the players and helps compound the knowledge gap.
Players that don't know how this monster works are at a huge disadvantage, more so then maybe any other villain in the game, but I don't I said anywhere that he's insurmountable.
If you get your way and have him removed from low level alerts you're ensuring that the higher level alerts he's in will start having higher failure rates due to the gradual influx of players that have no idea what they're in for. Players that learn the encounters early will have a better idea of what to do later on. Moving him strictly to the "later on" portion of the game widens that knowledge gap you mentioned even further than it is now.
-OR-
If you get your way and have him "fixed" he then becomes yet another villain that can be facerolled with no effort, removing one of the few challenging encounters the game has to offer. All so you won't have to worry about having to deal with a difficult boss during what little bit of playtime you manage put scrape together.
-OR OR-
People can simply choose to not queue for him in the first place and not worry about having a bad experience. That way the only people who will face him are the people who want or are willing to give it a shot.
Beat Ultimate Rugal in Capcom vs SNK 2 on 8 stars then come back to me about how "hard" Ao'Q is. People these days dont know hard games. They should force kids to play Battletoads in school.
For the love of all things holy I can practically solo Ao'Q and I'm a low DPS super tank.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
If you get your way and have him removed from low level alerts you're ensuring that the higher level alerts he's in will start having higher failure rates due to the gradual influx of players that have no idea what they're in for. Players that learn the encounters early will have a better idea of what to do later on. Moving him strictly to the "later on" portion of the game widens that knowledge gap you mentioned even further than it is now.
The difference is that in the smash you're dealing with a timer. You don't beat him within the time you lose. In the burst and grab the encounter ends when you beat him or when everyone gets frustrated, confused, or board and has to leave. Losing isn't so bad, having players frustrated, confused, or board is poison to a game.
If you get your way and have him "fixed" he then becomes yet another villain that can be facerolled with no effort, removing one of the few challenging encounters the game has to offer. All so you won't have to worry about having to deal with a difficult boss during what little bit of playtime you manage put scrape together.
Let's not say no effort, there are plenty of bosses that take a long time to beat, but outright defeat is now something that's reserved for the higher level alerts like the special alerts or the rampage alerts. Ao' doesn't actually defeat people as much as people get leave the alert, for reasons I mentioned above, and if that's something you want to preserve in the game that's your prerogative, however I should note that I'm not calling for his removal from all alerts if he's not fixed. Just the ones where you can waste more then two minutes of your time before you realize that he can't be defeated.
People can simply choose to not queue for him in the first place and not worry about having a bad experience. That way the only people who will face him are the people who want or are willing to give it a shot.
Well this wouldn't be a bad option either if there were some warning to new players added to the queue. As is, right now, the only way you might know that your low level non DPS character or melee tank is actually a hindrance to the alert is if you have a bad experience and then check these forums. Not ideal.
Beat Ultimate Rugal in Capcom vs SNK 2 on 8 stars then come back to me about how "hard" Ao'Q is. People these days dont know hard games. They should force kids to play Battletoads in school.
For the love of all things holy I can practically solo Ao'Q and I'm a low DPS super tank.
I would argue that Ao is more about false difficulty then anything else. You learn certain skills though out the game (like blocking stops attacks) and then this encounter changes those rules.
I would argue that Ao is more about false difficulty then anything else. You learn certain skills though out the game (like blocking stops attacks) and then this encounter changes those rules.
Gravitar's No-Tell Triple-Tap Fully-Charged Force Cascade Corner Juggle From Hell is false difficulty. Ao's heals can be mitigated outside of bursts by anybody willing to learn how to Block and Not Stand In The Fire.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Gravitar's No-Tell Triple-Tap Fully-Charged Force Cascade Corner Juggle From Hell is false difficulty. Ao's heals can be mitigated outside of bursts by anybody willing to learn how to Block and Not Stand In The Fire.
never experienced that, though the toons I take to the gravitar show usually have 10 000 hp or so and I like to block after the first hit because I know she likes to smack you multiple times.
What I'm saying about false difficulty is that the rules are changed for him and only him. If you didn't carefully read through the combat logs or search the forums you might never have any idea that you need to move or break line of sight for his drains . . . because you don't have to for any other character or boss in the game.
never experienced that, though the toons I take to the gravitar show usually have 10 000 hp or so and I like to block after the first hit because I know she likes to smack you multiple times.
What I'm saying about false difficulty is that the rules are changed for him and only him. If you didn't carefully read through the combat logs or search the forums you might never have any idea that you need to move or break line of sight for his drains . . . because you don't have to for any other character or boss in the game.
Freon's crazy high shatter damage, Rakshasa's target dropping mindworm summon, Devana Hawk's cluster of gas arrows. Jack Fool's charged everything, Draconis' insta-detonations, Baron's non-telegraphing reflecto-shield and Psimon's non-telegraphing reflecto-bubble are all examples of how the rules are bent to suit a particular gimmick for a boss. It's not artificial or false difficulty whatsoever. I don't find it at all coincidental that the only time I've seen anyone try to play the "artificial/false difficulty card" is when they can't figure out how to do something in a game properly and try to blame the game itself for their own shortcomings.
It's not artificial or false difficulty whatsoever. I don't find it at all coincidental that the only time I've seen anyone try to play the "artificial/false difficulty card" is when they can't figure out how to do something in a game properly and try to blame the game itself for their own shortcomings.
"Denial of information critical to progress. A reasonable game may require the player to use information, clues, or logic to proceed. Withholding relevant information such that the player cannot possibly win without a guide, walkthrough or trial and error is fake difficulty. Also includes hidden Unstable Equilibrium (e.g. a later level is much harder if you do badly at an early level, and you're not informed of this ahead of time). In a 2D game with no camera control, hiding important details behind foreground elements or Behind the Black counts as fake difficulty if your character should be able to see them."
Gee I guess the fact that this scenario fits one of the definitions of false difficulty is just a coincidence then. My own shortcomings being what they are, I guess I couldn't realize that Ao'Qephoth could heal with his drains through blocks, and because I'm not an uberhax00r elite gamer like you I got frustrated by that. I don't know, just assumed that blocking would stop the heals, but I guess I'm the only person playing that couldn't instantly see that. I wish I was as good at games as you. I so sorry mr shieldtower for bringing this up. Please feel free to ignore my further posts on this subject. I know I'll be ignoring yours.
"Denial of information critical to progress. A reasonable game may require the player to use information, clues, or logic to proceed. Withholding relevant information such that the player cannot possibly win without a guide, walkthrough or trial and error is fake difficulty. Also includes hidden Unstable Equilibrium (e.g. a later level is much harder if you do badly at an early level, and you're not informed of this ahead of time). In a 2D game with no camera control, hiding important details behind foreground elements or Behind the Black counts as fake difficulty if your character should be able to see them."
Gee I guess the fact that this scenario fits one of the definitions of false difficulty is just a coincidence then. My own shortcomings being what they are, I guess I couldn't realize that Ao'Qephoth could heal with his drains through blocks, and because I'm not an uberhax00r elite gamer like you I got frustrated by that. I don't know, just assumed that blocking would stop the heals, but I guess I'm the only person playing that couldn't instantly see that. I wish I was as good at games as you. I so sorry mr shieldtower for bringing this up. Please feel free to ignore my further posts on this subject. I know I'll be ignoring yours.
Your claim of false difficulty is going to be dificult to prove when you take into account how the tutorial level and even the Kevin Poe encounter in Westside teach you how to block. Learning a boss' move rotation and how to move out of the fire is also a fundamental part of MMO boss encounters. You can't seriously expect a game to hold your hand ALL the time. It's unrealistic and a bad overall design philosophy.
And while I appreciate you thinking I'm some sort of elite player, I'm really not. Not unless knowing when to block and figuring out how an encounter works is now criteria for being elite.
People can simply choose to not queue for him in the first place and not worry about having a bad experience. That way the only people who will face him are the people who want or are willing to give it a shot.
Now see that's what common sense would tell you is going on right now... people see Ao in the queue and they either say "Oh screw that, I'm gonna do something else for the next few minutes" or "Sweet! It's Ao time!"
But that would assume that people apply common sense in the use of their video game time...
He's just one alert boss people. You don't have to do him.
"Denial of information critical to progress. A reasonable game may require the player to use information, clues, or logic to proceed. Withholding relevant information such that the player cannot possibly win without a guide, walkthrough or trial and error is fake difficulty. Also includes hidden Unstable Equilibrium (e.g. a later level is much harder if you do badly at an early level, and you're not informed of this ahead of time). In a 2D game with no camera control, hiding important details behind foreground elements or Behind the Black counts as fake difficulty if your character should be able to see them."
In classic 2D sidescrollers, you usually have limited lives / limited continues before it's Game Over. Fake difficulty is a huge problem for those games when you play for the first time and a Game Over means starting from the very first level once more with all previous gameplay progress lost.
That simply does not exist in CO. If you fail Ao's alert, you don't lose anything other than time spent. You don't lose progress / items / exp / whatever. You're free to try again as many times you like until his alert gets rotated out, during which you're also free to form a team of proficient players with adequate levels/builds who may be on your friends list or someone on a channel whom you know has what it takes...
...or you could just suck it up, wait until his alert gets rotated out and just do any of the cakewalk villain's alerts if you're unwilling to adapt.
Actually, the Tutorial and Poe no longer teach you how to block (unless I missed an instruction while trying to keep Black Talon from smearing my new toon all over the floor, which is quite possible), they merely instruct you to block. If you don't already know how, then it's of no help.
All we can do is keep patiently instructing new players in a basic gameplay technique which, so far as I can tell, seems to be unique to CO. Perhaps one day the initial blocking tutorial station will be placed back in the game...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Actually, the Tutorial and Poe no longer teach you how to block (unless I missed an instruction while trying to keep Black Talon from smearing my new toon all over the floor, which is quite possible), they merely instruct you to block. If you don't already know how, then it's of no help.
All we can do is keep patiently instructing new players in a basic gameplay technique which, so far as I can tell, seems to be unique to CO. Perhaps one day the initial blocking tutorial station will be placed back in the game...
I don't think I've ever seen anyone in zone or on the forums complain about how they're not taught how to use the block mechanic. Not saying it doesn't happen, it just doesn't happen often enough to be a notably consistent complaint.
At some point people learn what blocking is, and in the case of Poe are given hints on when you should use it. Hints that apply to every other boss in the game, not just that Poe fight. It's not the game's fault people aren't utilizing their tools properly and people shouldn't expect an MMO to constantly remind them how to perform basic functions.
That simply does not exist in CO. If you fail Ao's alert, you don't lose anything other than time spent. You don't lose progress / items / exp / whatever.
Not necessarily true. There are consumables (like health packs, limited become devices, side kicks, etc.) that someone might spend trying to beat an alert and health stars lost for being defeated, both of which can cost money to replace and refill. Time also can burn away bonuses you might have up like EXP bonuses.
But false difficulty isn't about the punishment it's about the difficulty. If Champions online is less punishing then a 2D scrollers is irreverent.
Actually, the Tutorial and Poe no longer teach you how to block (unless I missed an instruction while trying to keep Black Talon from smearing my new toon all over the floor, which is quite possible), they merely instruct you to block. If you don't already know how, then it's of no help.
The tutorial wouldn't help in the case even if it were still in the game, this is why it's false difficulty. Even if you do block, like you're supposed to, Ao' will still gain health from the devour essence. We're not told this happens, Ao is completely different from every other encounter in the game in this regard. Unless you look over the combat logs there's no clue that he does this. Apparently to defeat Ao you need to break line of sight or get out of range of his life drains.
Freon's crazy high shatter damage, Rakshasa's target dropping mindworm summon, Devana Hawk's cluster of gas arrows. Jack Fool's charged everything, Draconis' insta-detonations, Baron's non-telegraphing reflecto-shield and Psimon's non-telegraphing reflecto-bubble are all examples of how the rules are bent to suit a particular gimmick for a boss. It's not artificial or false difficulty whatsoever. I don't find it at all coincidental that the only time I've seen anyone try to play the "artificial/false difficulty card" is when they can't figure out how to do something in a game properly and try to blame the game itself for their own shortcomings.
Freon, Devana, Draconis and even Psimon are not so bad. Rakshasa is annoying. Jack Fool and Baron will kill you until you figure it out.
With AoQ, one person who doesn't know what's going on can screw it up for everyone, and they don't even die as a result. If they don't know WHY AoQ's health bar keeps popping up to full, and they have their chat window closed and don't see all the people screaming BLOCK, it just looks like a bug or a completely broken power or something.
If I die because I didn't block Jack Fool, it's on me. That's reasonably fair.
If I lose because someone else didn't figure out they have to block AoQ, there's nothing I can do about it except no longer participate in AoQ alerts and complain on the forums. That's not particularly fair.
Freon, Devana, Draconis and even Psimon are not so bad. Rakshasa is annoying. Jack Fool and Baron will kill you until you figure it out.
With AoQ, one person who doesn't know what's going on can screw it up for everyone, and they don't even die as a result. If they don't know WHY AoQ's health bar keeps popping up to full, and they have their chat window closed and don't see all the people screaming BLOCK, it just looks like a bug or a completely broken power or something.
If I die because I didn't block Jack Fool, it's on me. That's reasonably fair.
If I lose because someone else didn't figure out they have to block AoQ, there's nothing I can do about it except no longer participate in AoQ alerts and complain on the forums. That's not particularly fair.
Comments
To be honest anyone can kill AO'q with the most squishyist of AT's without blocking. Spam Skarn's Bane while the dps'rs do their thing and the dudes toast.
Grimores are his Kryptonite.
Now excuse while I get back to leveling up my annoying Metrosexual Emo and his badass one armed ghost friend.
* bonus points if you guess what ps3 game i just got imported \o/ *
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Taking into consideration that every player has the "tools" to take down Ao, I don't see what the issue is. Every player can block and every player can move.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
Which I would be pleased with if the poor old grimore didn't need to hit level 27 to be useful in an alert that you can queue at level 10. That's a full 16 levels of not being helpful.
Level 10's have no place in the AO'q alert , its meant for higher levels. People wanting to power level lowbies should sit that one out. There is already a gate for that alert its called common sense.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Just ran an Ao' Museum Heist PUG tonight. 40 (me), 39, 19, 13, 11. Had one Devour Essence burst-heal early on, then we just ground him down after the two melee toons figured it out. I was rangetanking and soaking up the Drain Life casts with my block. If the 39 had Skarn's Bane, I didn't catch it. Not exactly five 10s, but with three toons in the teens and me blocking a lot, we still weren't hurting for DPS enough to get out-healed.
I still wouldn't tackle an Ao' burst without five pipe-hitting level 40 Blasters, at least two keeping Skarn's Bane hot at all times. I'd love to see the spreadsheet behind that alert, if Crush has one. Probably has a note on it that once read "Demo Nocturne bug? Investigate", but it's been smeared by potato chip grease into illegibility.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Well they're villains... they don't follow the rules... kind of their thing you know? :biggrin:
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
What's funny is for everyone whose NOT tanking Ao, he's one of the easiest fights and the only difficulty is having the min req dps and a aggro-holder that knows to block/run. Everyone else just gets to wail on him and take maybe occasional ticks from condemn aoe.
I mean, at that lvl, ViperX's mines will slaughter melee, Mindslayer's no-charge warning EBB and pretty much every charge move Jack Fool has can one-shot lowbies (even through block). Then there's Kev Poe's 4k base dps aoe shadow embrace, and Freon's high dmg + killer shatters. Draconis' instant force detonations, Hrodegeir's cleave combo, Rakshasa's worm pack spam of doom, Hawke's 4x gas arrow + quick charged shot while ur stunned, Baron's no-charge warning reflective block that can kill dps before they even blink, Valerian's hyper-supped up circle of primal dominion, and so on.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
The 13 and 11 are brutal but at least everyone else had all 3 super stats. The one I had (and the one that cause me to start this thread) I was a level 39 might tank and I think the second highest was 26 or so, everyone else was in their teens.
I still find it irritating that the same rules don't apply. I also have to wonder if that's by design or are we seeing bugs?
Probably a combination of the two. I get the feeling that sometimes they have to design around the bugs.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I know your Anger and Believe me I Sympathized with HOW BS AO-QEPHOTH IS!
It wasn;t only Demosele Nocturne, NEMESIS WITH DARKNESS was also Bugged and healing like CRAZY! But they Fixed both in the same time!
They also fixed the Devour Essence on Infernal/Default nemesis crap (Lilith, heavy metal e.t.c) which was ALSO healing like Crazy
and THEN there this MOFO Ao-Qephoth, they haven't Nerf him or Fixed him like the previous bosses and let him go around like he owns the Place!
Yesterday I retcon one of my FF power's to Grab the Scarn's Bane to deal with him Pyramid of Power!
I was spamming Scarn's Bane all the time to get rid of his Shadow Form... just for him to HEAL A WHOLE HEALTH BAR WITH DEVOUR ESSENCE ON THE MELEE TANK!
also Blocking on his DEVOUR ESSENCE is not working, he stills heals!
THIS GUYS SHOULD NOT EXIST!
Never in my whole life I have hated with such passion a Videogame Boss like that!
I have Nothing against the Create-a-Villain concept winners, but Ao-Qephoth makes me wish he was NEVER CREATED
If played carefully, yes.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I would much rather have bosses break the rules for player characters than just have more HP and bigger hits. If you think about it we break the rules for bosses all of the time. When was the last time a boss had access to an AI comparable to a player ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
"Played carefully" in this case most likely implies both build knowledge and player headspace. A full team of people with bad builds and/or don't know what they're really doing will perform miserably on bosses like Jack Fool and Ao'. A full team of people who know how to play their build/AT to the fullest and know how to handle the tougher Alert bosses will have less problems.
A team of five experienced players leveling their shiny new alts, who already know the gimmicks of whatever "cheap" alert boss they're fighting, should be able to handle any alert in the game. The margin for error comes from PUGging with an inexperienced player who's never fought that boss before and keeps feeding Ao's heals, attacking Cimetiere's reflecting block, or cussing in local about Rakshasa's threat wipe instead of retargeting.
I hate to reduce this to a "L2P, NOOB" argument, but for some bosses, well... L2P, NOOB. Or L!2P, NOOB, in the case of an Ao' Burst, because it's broken.
So when* the CO Wiki comes back, we definitely need a section for alert boss guides, if there wasn't one already.
*: And we do mean "when", right, LordGar?
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Right, I don't mind a learning curve to games, but I also think games need some indications in game that an Ao' encounter is going to be drastically different from most other fights in the alert system. When there's no resources to help support new players even if they want to learn I feel that bosses like Ao' are extremely counter productive. Let's all hope that the wiki returns soon.
Yeah really. I'll complain about bosses breaking the rules the day that a boss rotates active defenses that make them practically invincible, and then the moment we actually start doing damage to them they pop Ascension and just fly circles around us and spam Ebon Ruin, and then call in a tactical strike from a jet.....and then, when they land and we run up to hit them they hit Evasive Manuevers and disappear and just teleport away...and then they show up a minute later and one shot somebody in the party with shadow strike.
Or heck, if a boss was even able to kite us just by moving around.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You keep insisting that Ao' is some sort of nigh insurmountable beast of a boss yet everyone keeps pointing out that players are by far the biggest reason he is able to tank a full group of people in alerts. His Devour Essense heals through a block? Then move out of it's range. His Life Drain heals him a ton? It can be blocked, start doing so. His Shadow Form heals him periodically? His passive healing can be overcome by a variety of means. The only thing preventing any of this from happening are players. Players that won't move out of the fire, won't utilize their arsenal correctly and/or won't place something between his attacks and their own face to keep it from being melted off.
Not every boss should be able to be taken down via zerg tactics(if you can even call "attack, faceplant, rinse and repeat" an actual tactic) and it's nice to have one that requires people to pay attention in order to defeat it.
In short: Ao' isn't broken and doesn't need to be fixed or removed. Players that won't adjust how they approach this boss fight need to be fixed or removed.
It was just yesterday that I queue'd up for an Ao' Radiation Rumble alert and watched him get annihilated in about sixty seconds. Mine was the highest level character in the alert, the rest were between 28 and 31. I sure as hell wasn't carrying the group either, everyone knew their stuff. People blocked, the tank kept moving to minimize DE's effects and Active Offenses were used. Put a grin on my face.
I know it's an anecdote but it's one that happens often and not just in groups I happen to be in. So you'll just have to forgive me if I can't take your difficulty "feedback" seriously on this. Or, at all.
Burst Ao's passive shadowfeast is broken. Ao everywhere else is pretty much fine as is.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
It's really just Pyramid Power where he's ridiculously pumped. Pyramid Power Ao would take over the world if we actually had to stop him... luckily for us, when we run away he's content to just go back to his lair and play tiddlywinks.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
- Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
Um . . . that was sort of the point of the post you quoted. What I was saying is one bad player, in theory, could make the mission unbeatable for everyone else. I've also said repeatedly now that I think him not using exciting powers as they function for everyone else is unfair because it means that he's fallowing unique special rules without any indication that he's doing so. This is unfair to the players and helps compound the knowledge gap.
Players that don't know how this monster works are at a huge disadvantage, more so then maybe any other villain in the game, but I don't I said anywhere that he's insurmountable.
If you get your way and have him removed from low level alerts you're ensuring that the higher level alerts he's in will start having higher failure rates due to the gradual influx of players that have no idea what they're in for. Players that learn the encounters early will have a better idea of what to do later on. Moving him strictly to the "later on" portion of the game widens that knowledge gap you mentioned even further than it is now.
If you get your way and have him "fixed" he then becomes yet another villain that can be facerolled with no effort, removing one of the few challenging encounters the game has to offer. All so you won't have to worry about having to deal with a difficult boss during what little bit of playtime you manage put scrape together.
People can simply choose to not queue for him in the first place and not worry about having a bad experience. That way the only people who will face him are the people who want or are willing to give it a shot.
For the love of all things holy I can practically solo Ao'Q and I'm a low DPS super tank.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I still haven't gotten past that damned tunnel to this day. =(
Deliciously nutritious!
Let's not say no effort, there are plenty of bosses that take a long time to beat, but outright defeat is now something that's reserved for the higher level alerts like the special alerts or the rampage alerts. Ao' doesn't actually defeat people as much as people get leave the alert, for reasons I mentioned above, and if that's something you want to preserve in the game that's your prerogative, however I should note that I'm not calling for his removal from all alerts if he's not fixed. Just the ones where you can waste more then two minutes of your time before you realize that he can't be defeated.
Well this wouldn't be a bad option either if there were some warning to new players added to the queue. As is, right now, the only way you might know that your low level non DPS character or melee tank is actually a hindrance to the alert is if you have a bad experience and then check these forums. Not ideal.
I would argue that Ao is more about false difficulty then anything else. You learn certain skills though out the game (like blocking stops attacks) and then this encounter changes those rules.
Gravitar's No-Tell Triple-Tap Fully-Charged Force Cascade Corner Juggle From Hell is false difficulty. Ao's heals can be mitigated outside of bursts by anybody willing to learn how to Block and Not Stand In The Fire.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
What I'm saying about false difficulty is that the rules are changed for him and only him. If you didn't carefully read through the combat logs or search the forums you might never have any idea that you need to move or break line of sight for his drains . . . because you don't have to for any other character or boss in the game.
Freon's crazy high shatter damage, Rakshasa's target dropping mindworm summon, Devana Hawk's cluster of gas arrows. Jack Fool's charged everything, Draconis' insta-detonations, Baron's non-telegraphing reflecto-shield and Psimon's non-telegraphing reflecto-bubble are all examples of how the rules are bent to suit a particular gimmick for a boss. It's not artificial or false difficulty whatsoever. I don't find it at all coincidental that the only time I've seen anyone try to play the "artificial/false difficulty card" is when they can't figure out how to do something in a game properly and try to blame the game itself for their own shortcomings.
Gee I guess the fact that this scenario fits one of the definitions of false difficulty is just a coincidence then. My own shortcomings being what they are, I guess I couldn't realize that Ao'Qephoth could heal with his drains through blocks, and because I'm not an uberhax00r elite gamer like you I got frustrated by that. I don't know, just assumed that blocking would stop the heals, but I guess I'm the only person playing that couldn't instantly see that. I wish I was as good at games as you. I so sorry mr shieldtower for bringing this up. Please feel free to ignore my further posts on this subject. I know I'll be ignoring yours.
Your claim of false difficulty is going to be dificult to prove when you take into account how the tutorial level and even the Kevin Poe encounter in Westside teach you how to block. Learning a boss' move rotation and how to move out of the fire is also a fundamental part of MMO boss encounters. You can't seriously expect a game to hold your hand ALL the time. It's unrealistic and a bad overall design philosophy.
And while I appreciate you thinking I'm some sort of elite player, I'm really not. Not unless knowing when to block and figuring out how an encounter works is now criteria for being elite.
Now see that's what common sense would tell you is going on right now... people see Ao in the queue and they either say "Oh screw that, I'm gonna do something else for the next few minutes" or "Sweet! It's Ao time!"
But that would assume that people apply common sense in the use of their video game time...
He's just one alert boss people. You don't have to do him.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
In classic 2D sidescrollers, you usually have limited lives / limited continues before it's Game Over. Fake difficulty is a huge problem for those games when you play for the first time and a Game Over means starting from the very first level once more with all previous gameplay progress lost.
That simply does not exist in CO. If you fail Ao's alert, you don't lose anything other than time spent. You don't lose progress / items / exp / whatever. You're free to try again as many times you like until his alert gets rotated out, during which you're also free to form a team of proficient players with adequate levels/builds who may be on your friends list or someone on a channel whom you know has what it takes...
...or you could just suck it up, wait until his alert gets rotated out and just do any of the cakewalk villain's alerts if you're unwilling to adapt.
All we can do is keep patiently instructing new players in a basic gameplay technique which, so far as I can tell, seems to be unique to CO. Perhaps one day the initial blocking tutorial station will be placed back in the game...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone in zone or on the forums complain about how they're not taught how to use the block mechanic. Not saying it doesn't happen, it just doesn't happen often enough to be a notably consistent complaint.
At some point people learn what blocking is, and in the case of Poe are given hints on when you should use it. Hints that apply to every other boss in the game, not just that Poe fight. It's not the game's fault people aren't utilizing their tools properly and people shouldn't expect an MMO to constantly remind them how to perform basic functions.
Not necessarily true. There are consumables (like health packs, limited become devices, side kicks, etc.) that someone might spend trying to beat an alert and health stars lost for being defeated, both of which can cost money to replace and refill. Time also can burn away bonuses you might have up like EXP bonuses.
But false difficulty isn't about the punishment it's about the difficulty. If Champions online is less punishing then a 2D scrollers is irreverent.
The tutorial wouldn't help in the case even if it were still in the game, this is why it's false difficulty. Even if you do block, like you're supposed to, Ao' will still gain health from the devour essence. We're not told this happens, Ao is completely different from every other encounter in the game in this regard. Unless you look over the combat logs there's no clue that he does this. Apparently to defeat Ao you need to break line of sight or get out of range of his life drains.
Freon, Devana, Draconis and even Psimon are not so bad. Rakshasa is annoying. Jack Fool and Baron will kill you until you figure it out.
With AoQ, one person who doesn't know what's going on can screw it up for everyone, and they don't even die as a result. If they don't know WHY AoQ's health bar keeps popping up to full, and they have their chat window closed and don't see all the people screaming BLOCK, it just looks like a bug or a completely broken power or something.
If I die because I didn't block Jack Fool, it's on me. That's reasonably fair.
If I lose because someone else didn't figure out they have to block AoQ, there's nothing I can do about it except no longer participate in AoQ alerts and complain on the forums. That's not particularly fair.
I Agree completely.