First, that was supposed to be 10 seconds...stupid memory.
Second, remind me again about the taunt. I can taunt 2 different baddies within that 10 seconds correct?
If so, what I've always done is mass spam everything. I'm an alt-tab tank. I spam my taunt alongside my CS powers. If there's a particularly strong baddie, such as a boss or cosmic however, I will throw everything at him while maintaining my AoE CS attacks in between.
First, I figured it was a typo. But second, you can/cannot. CC's "taunt" has an internal cooldown, so even if you have it on multiple powers, you're completely locked out from using it for the 10 seconds. That's just the taunt effect, though. The +threat that CC gives has no cooldown whatsoever, so alt-tabbing isn't a terrible idea. It's just that if you spend (arbitrary numbers here) 10 seconds to alt-tab and hit 10 enemies with +400 threat from CC, in that same time, if you were using a CS power that attacks at a rate of 1/second, you'll have put CS on those 10 enemies a total of 10 times, for a total of (+200 x 10 sec) 2,000 threat. The math required for if you combined both is a bit more tricky, as you deal with the threat over time plus the CC, it's a bit sticky, but I'm sure you get the idea of that it makes holding threat easier for the same reason that letting STC or Ego Sprites tick while you use Sword Cyclone or Ego Blade Frenzy gives you mroe DPS than just using them alone.
Both advantages have their uses, one excels at temporarily holding the threat of alot of things that are going to die quickly, and one works better in the long term for holding the attention of a single target that's going to take a while to take down.
Ah, well crud. I don't know why I've always thought that the cooldown applied to just one foe at a time. As in I understood that you couldn't use 2 powers to taunt 1 enemy BUT thought that you could use 1 power to taunt 2 enemies. I guess it's just the wording of CC that's confusing.
I agree though that if you can only taunt anything every 10 secs then spamming CS would be the most beneficial way of stacking threat.
Disclaimer: I do apologize if this has been discussed in this thread already. I read the guide but not all the comments.
Wow, thanks for the extra info. I thought maybe it was just me being awful at tanking, but I guess it depends on later levels.
I did notice eye of the storm was awful at threat gen even with the advantage, but I thought it would help me not be a squishy tank. Suppose that doesn't matter if I'm not getting hit though :P. I'll put this advice to good use.
Shuriken is only 50' range, though. The main problem with Shuriken as a CC attack is it's slow activation time. Assault Rifle ticks every 0.5 seconds, and Power Gauntlet can run while you run Minigun and Micro Munitions - both of which are CS powers, and both are also 100' range.
CC's "taunt" has an internal cooldown, so even if you have it on multiple powers, you're completely locked out from using it for the 10 seconds.
You sure? I've always thought it had an immunity timer on the target, simply because using crippling challenge fails to grab aggro if someone else has used it recently.
You sure? I've always thought it had an immunity timer on the target, simply because using crippling challenge fails to grab aggro if someone else has used it recently.
This is a frickin' excellent guide, thanks for writing it! I currently have a Might/Electric tank, but he's sort of hovering between tank and survivable DPS, so I've been wanting to create a new dedicated tank toon. Thing is, I would really like to try making a Telepathy tank. I don't see why Telepathy would be so poorly at it, at least now after all the F2P changes.
I'd be taking Ego Blast w/ Mind Opener as my CC power. With SS Pre and Telepathic Reverberation, I could charge it fully once to ensure the target gets Disoriented, then tap-spam it endlessly. The Mind Opener advantage functions exactly like Ice Blast's Hard Frost advantage, so it does decent damage against Disoriented/held foes. Ego Sprites w/ Slave Mentality and Telekinetic Eruption w/ Enhanced Form as CS powers (the latter giving me some slight damage resistance and damage boost for 30 sec when charged halfway). Force Shield w/ Force Sheath as my block replacer. I'd throw in Ego Sleep w/ Plagued By Nightmares and Ego Storm w/ Malevolent Manifestation for some crowd control and debuff (through Disorient and Feared). Con/Pre SS with Defiance as my passive. Do you think it has any chance of working, or am I missing something vital?
If that idea doesn't work, I'll probably try out a Fire/Infernal tank.
...In looking at the Ice Tank, I see that DEX is recommended. Why? Without Ice Form needing crits for Cold Snap, what would DEX do for this build?
Extra damage never hurts.
What confuses me the most is why Invuln tanks would bother with CON as a super stat. Enough CON to take the hits is all that's needed. The rest can go into PRE and whatever your second super stat choice is. My DEX/PRE Invuln tank only has 15 CON and can tank Teleiosaurus without outside help.
I'm also not sure I agree with the statement in the OP that a tank must spend a lot of time blocking and because of that plus the lower damage bonus of not being in Avenger/Brawler the tank only deals 20%-30% of a DPS focused toon. Blocking as a tank is generally not necessary except when fighting certain mobs that will kill you if specific attacks aren't blocked. As such it's been my experience that a tank deals 50%-60% of a similarly optimized DPS toon.
Updated for Telepathy Tank
Also updated explanations both in Section 1 (The Hybriding U) and 2 (Tank's prescpective) for more explanation in the impracticality of "DPS Tanks"
I am working in Korea, and this is one of the few websites I can access during work. Thanks for the continuous update. Took your advice regarding PA tank and life has been way more interesting. Just need the right gear.
I cant seem to find corroborating info and I don't see extra debuffs on an opponent, but does CS really stack if they originate from different powers? how do you know?
I'm very interested in making a TK Blades Tank but I understand that there are some very large changes coming for the set. Have you any plans to check out what's changed and if it has affected the viability of a TK Tank?
Laser Sword in PA can also have Crippling Challenge.
This is True. However, for the very most part, PA is built around being a ranged tank. To take Laser Sword when all of your other attacks are at a range severly hurts your overall threat output.
As for Ego Blades, I have no had a chance to reevaluate it yet.
A question though, wouldn't making a ranged tank be an option as well, given the new additions of several ranged attacks?
The powers are certainly there to do it, however, it seems Ego Blade's tools (as far as tanking goes) are built around melee.
It makes a Medeocre Ranged Tank or a Spectacular Melee Tank.
Does anyone know how much threat it takes to pull Qularr "Firebugs" off of "Hives" and make them close to melee range before the hive respawns them? (It happens intermittently with the +threat/taunt generated by a melee Energy Builder)
Thanks for all your effort and nice educational post. Now I understand CO threat mechanics and where my toons will stand in teams, even if they are not dedicated tanks, DPS or support toons.
Sorry about the lack of updates. tanking hasn't changed much. Waiting on wind to become a little better developed and waiting for Earth to come out so I can try out both as tanks
After getting spec trees, do we really need PRE for tanking? Will not any other secondary do (assuming we can assign that secondary to be our threat stat)?
After getting spec trees, do we really need PRE for tanking? Will not any other secondary do (assuming we can assign that secondary to be our threat stat)?
not directly, but healing produces aggro, and PRE increases your healing...
This is an old thread, but a lot of people I deal with disagree vehemently with everything in it. Also, it's sticky, so it's not like i'm popping it back up. So at the risk of being declared a zombie summoner IRL...
Is everything here still accurate? Has anything changed with any of the powers recommended here?
Are Telepathy fire and forget DoT powers great tank attacks still?
Also, how does aggro generation work in hybrid role with Protector: Bulwark compared to tank role?
This is an old thread, but a lot of people I deal with disagree vehemently with everything in it. Also, it's sticky, so it's not like i'm popping it back up. So at the risk of being declared a zombie summoner IRL...
Is everything here still accurate? Has anything changed with any of the powers recommended here?
Energy management and damage has changed a LOT.
Just read the part about needing 5 seconds of energy building after one haymaker, the game just doesn't work like that (anymore?).
Pulling agro by high damage works much better now then it did in the past, the taunt advantages are only really usefull for threat when you add them on a fast maintain.
Something like CC maintains that hits every 0.5 seconcs or CS on Plasma Beam adds a lot of threat.
The way CS, CC and threat bonus works has not been changed as far as I know, so that part of the guide is still very usefull.
Are Telepathy fire and forget DoT powers great tank attacks still?
A power like Ego sprites is a great taking power if you are using a theme that doesn't have some big (PB)AOE maintains.
Up untill about a year ago, when my heavy weapons build was more a pve tank, she used Ego sprites + CS to great effect. It allowed me to use heavy weapon attacks 90% of the time and still pull large groups of enemies to me.
Also, how does aggro generation work in hybrid role with Protector: Bulwark compared to tank role?
Tank role pulls more agro, but hybrid does more damage and adds more self heals, and the added health and defense in tank role are not nearly as noticeable. So if you have the bulwark spec anyway, and you can keep agro on hybrid role you are better off in hybrid role.
Comments
First, I figured it was a typo. But second, you can/cannot. CC's "taunt" has an internal cooldown, so even if you have it on multiple powers, you're completely locked out from using it for the 10 seconds. That's just the taunt effect, though. The +threat that CC gives has no cooldown whatsoever, so alt-tabbing isn't a terrible idea. It's just that if you spend (arbitrary numbers here) 10 seconds to alt-tab and hit 10 enemies with +400 threat from CC, in that same time, if you were using a CS power that attacks at a rate of 1/second, you'll have put CS on those 10 enemies a total of 10 times, for a total of (+200 x 10 sec) 2,000 threat. The math required for if you combined both is a bit more tricky, as you deal with the threat over time plus the CC, it's a bit sticky, but I'm sure you get the idea of that it makes holding threat easier for the same reason that letting STC or Ego Sprites tick while you use Sword Cyclone or Ego Blade Frenzy gives you mroe DPS than just using them alone.
Both advantages have their uses, one excels at temporarily holding the threat of alot of things that are going to die quickly, and one works better in the long term for holding the attention of a single target that's going to take a while to take down.
I agree though that if you can only taunt anything every 10 secs then spamming CS would be the most beneficial way of stacking threat.
Disclaimer: I do apologize if this has been discussed in this thread already. I read the guide but not all the comments.
I did notice eye of the storm was awful at threat gen even with the advantage, but I thought it would help me not be a squishy tank. Suppose that doesn't matter if I'm not getting hit though :P. I'll put this advice to good use.
You could add Shuriken Throw to that
LD
Shuriken is only 50' range, though. The main problem with Shuriken as a CC attack is it's slow activation time. Assault Rifle ticks every 0.5 seconds, and Power Gauntlet can run while you run Minigun and Micro Munitions - both of which are CS powers, and both are also 100' range.
hmm... I'd definately like to experiment with it
I'd be taking Ego Blast w/ Mind Opener as my CC power. With SS Pre and Telepathic Reverberation, I could charge it fully once to ensure the target gets Disoriented, then tap-spam it endlessly. The Mind Opener advantage functions exactly like Ice Blast's Hard Frost advantage, so it does decent damage against Disoriented/held foes. Ego Sprites w/ Slave Mentality and Telekinetic Eruption w/ Enhanced Form as CS powers (the latter giving me some slight damage resistance and damage boost for 30 sec when charged halfway). Force Shield w/ Force Sheath as my block replacer. I'd throw in Ego Sleep w/ Plagued By Nightmares and Ego Storm w/ Malevolent Manifestation for some crowd control and debuff (through Disorient and Feared). Con/Pre SS with Defiance as my passive. Do you think it has any chance of working, or am I missing something vital?
If that idea doesn't work, I'll probably try out a Fire/Infernal tank.
In looking at the Ice Tank, I see that DEX is recommended. Why? Without Ice Form needing crits for Cold Snap, what would DEX do for this build?
Extra damage never hurts.
What confuses me the most is why Invuln tanks would bother with CON as a super stat. Enough CON to take the hits is all that's needed. The rest can go into PRE and whatever your second super stat choice is. My DEX/PRE Invuln tank only has 15 CON and can tank Teleiosaurus without outside help.
I'm also not sure I agree with the statement in the OP that a tank must spend a lot of time blocking and because of that plus the lower damage bonus of not being in Avenger/Brawler the tank only deals 20%-30% of a DPS focused toon. Blocking as a tank is generally not necessary except when fighting certain mobs that will kill you if specific attacks aren't blocked. As such it's been my experience that a tank deals 50%-60% of a similarly optimized DPS toon.
Also updated explanations both in Section 1 (The Hybriding U) and 2 (Tank's prescpective) for more explanation in the impracticality of "DPS Tanks"
On Deck: Massive Weapon Tank
Heavy Weapons still undergoing testing
Don't laugh. Added Gadget Tank. Yes. Seriously.
Crippling Challenge
Challenging Strikes
I'm very interested in making a TK Blades Tank but I understand that there are some very large changes coming for the set. Have you any plans to check out what's changed and if it has affected the viability of a TK Tank?
GD
This is True. However, for the very most part, PA is built around being a ranged tank. To take Laser Sword when all of your other attacks are at a range severly hurts your overall threat output.
As for Ego Blades, I have no had a chance to reevaluate it yet.
How the new Ego Blade changes effected the Ego Tank:
A question though, wouldn't making a ranged tank be an option as well, given the new additions of several ranged attacks?
The powers are certainly there to do it, however, it seems Ego Blade's tools (as far as tanking goes) are built around melee.
It makes a Medeocre Ranged Tank or a Spectacular Melee Tank.
(It happens intermittently with the +threat/taunt generated by a melee Energy Builder)
not directly, but healing produces aggro, and PRE increases your healing...
My build directory (work in progress)
Guide list
Freeform Builds
In loving memory of AngelofCaine.
Is everything here still accurate? Has anything changed with any of the powers recommended here?
Are Telepathy fire and forget DoT powers great tank attacks still?
Also, how does aggro generation work in hybrid role with Protector: Bulwark compared to tank role?
Energy management and damage has changed a LOT.
Just read the part about needing 5 seconds of energy building after one haymaker, the game just doesn't work like that (anymore?).
Pulling agro by high damage works much better now then it did in the past, the taunt advantages are only really usefull for threat when you add them on a fast maintain.
Something like CC maintains that hits every 0.5 seconcs or CS on Plasma Beam adds a lot of threat.
The way CS, CC and threat bonus works has not been changed as far as I know, so that part of the guide is still very usefull.
A power like Ego sprites is a great taking power if you are using a theme that doesn't have some big (PB)AOE maintains.
Up untill about a year ago, when my heavy weapons build was more a pve tank, she used Ego sprites + CS to great effect. It allowed me to use heavy weapon attacks 90% of the time and still pull large groups of enemies to me.
Tank role pulls more agro, but hybrid does more damage and adds more self heals, and the added health and defense in tank role are not nearly as noticeable. So if you have the bulwark spec anyway, and you can keep agro on hybrid role you are better off in hybrid role.