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Guide to Threat Management and Aggro Control
Archived Post
Posts: 1,156,071 Arc User
Threat has to be the signularly least understood mechanic in all of Champions Online. Knowing how to Generate, Disperse and Manage Aggro has many myths and misunderstandings about it stemming back to the game's Original Closed Beta. Since F2P, many of these issued have been resolved, and made many of the ideas of what once was the way to tank, heal and do damage and operate as a team, obsolete. This guide it to clear up those myths and misunderstandings and to bring the truth of just how simple Threat Management is in the new game.
This guide is not about going back to the MMO trinity of "Tank" "Heal" "DPS" because of the sheer number of hybrid builds out there. Moreover, this is a guide for, when teaming, letting the guy taking all the damage know what he should be doing, and what everyone else in the team whose not taking damage should be doing as well, and if everyone in the team is running around doing and taking damage, just to let those people know what they should be doing too.
The first and foremost rule to keep in mind is Presence. Mostly, only if you are desginated tank, or healer, do you really need to worry about it. Presence as Threat is really easy to Understand.
So, game mechanically Speaking, Gaurdian and Protector Roles have the easiest time Generating threat, and the other Sentiel are the easiest at losing it.
I. - Threat Management, Hybriding and "U"
The key to understanding Threat is to Understand the "U" of Hybriding, as well as your roles and how they work. Most people think that Hybriding is a Triangle, where how close you can get to each point between the original MMO trinity. This is more what it looks like:
Notice that the points between Tank and DPS do not connect? You can make a Tank that helps support it's team, You can make a Support/DPS "Corruptor/ Defender" style toon that heals and does damage or can hold it's own. You can also make a toon that does DPS Support, that in addition to doing damage, supports and buffs the teams damage output in addition to his own. You can make True Trinity Characters who are Pure Tank, Pure Support and Pure DPS. You can even make a true complete hybrid character thats decent at everything! You can make a DPSer that plays like a Tank, or a Tank that plays like a DPSer, but you can never make a Tank that holds aggro thru sheer damage alone, or a DPSer that holds aggro thru Taunts, but the two are built in 2 fundamentally different directions.
The advent of Roles and Passives as well as Blocking makes the avenue of "Pure DPS Tank" nigh impossible. Even when everyone running in Guardian Role, he who does the most damage is he with the Offensive Passive, and in taking an Offensive Passive in Gaurdian Role, you miss out on survivability. If you take a Defensive Passive for survivability, you miss out on damage. Though you can build for damage synergies and taunts with a defensive passive, or incorporate taunts in with an offensive passive. As a Tank, if you can hold aggro thru damage alone, it means you are outdamaging your party, and that your party more than likely may not be optimally specced for DPS. Additionally, in Protector Role, Energy Generation from End Builders is poor while Energy Generation from blocking is outstanding, whereas the opposite is true in Avenger/Brawler and Guardian Roles. Mathematically speaking, here's how it breaks down:
II. - The Tank's Prespective
That being said, Tanking and Threat Generation is incredibly easy and incredibly fun in Champions Online , especially when compared with MMOs. But before we get into the intrucacies of tanking, I want to take a moment to explain the 2 staple powers of a Threat Generation. Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes.
Crippling Challenge (CC) is a Single- Target, Threat Generating Taunt that can be put as an Advantage on most Teir 0 and some Teir 1 Powers. It is specifically placed on low-energy costing powers that are single target only, so that you shouldn't have to rely on your End Builder to use them. The run-down and Game Mechanics of Crippling Challenge are as follows:
Challenging Strikes (CS) is an AOE Threat Generating ability that can be put on most AOEs. The run-down and Game Mechanics of Challenging Strikes are as follows:
(And yes, these Numbers, as far as Threat Generation goes, are modified by your Presence!)
Now since the beginning of this game, there's a few myths surrounding these 2 advantages that I'd like to dispell
Here's an oversimplified version of how the math behind Threat Generating works... Afterall it's Cyrptic math and in coding, is something far far more complex. And I have changed the actual numbers to make the math cleaner.
Note that if Challenging Strikes is running on the target at the same time, the DPSer has to do even more DPS to gain aggro over the Tank.
If you want to go the "Aggro thru damage route" It just is Damage x %Threat Gain = Total Threat.
And lastly, there are alot more variables than this in the actual math. Everything here is just for the sake of clean numbers to give a better idea of the math.
Just note changes in PRE will change these numbers.
As I said, thats an oversimplified view of it. But given those numbers, it does give an idea of just how easy it is for a tank to generate threat over their party, and why DPS is not the best route to threat generation.
So whats the simple explanation? Thats Easy! When tanking, it's adventageous to put Challenging Strikes on multiple AOE powers, refreshing them every 10 seconds while spamming Crippling Challenge in between.
But you might ask: "What about doing damage?" Well, as a tank, you're there to hold the enemy's attention so that other people don't take damage, not really so much to do damage. But since there is no way of "gauging" Threat or seeing how much threat you have over your allies, its more of an art. If you feel you have a decent aggro gain over your party, why not do some damage for a while?
This guide is not about going back to the MMO trinity of "Tank" "Heal" "DPS" because of the sheer number of hybrid builds out there. Moreover, this is a guide for, when teaming, letting the guy taking all the damage know what he should be doing, and what everyone else in the team whose not taking damage should be doing as well, and if everyone in the team is running around doing and taking damage, just to let those people know what they should be doing too.
The first and foremost rule to keep in mind is Presence. Mostly, only if you are desginated tank, or healer, do you really need to worry about it. Presence as Threat is really easy to Understand.
Guardian Role: PRE /10 = % Threat Loss
Protector Role: PRE /10, +50% = % Threat Gain
Support, Brawler and Avenger: PRE /10, x2 = % Threat Loss
Protector Role: PRE /10, +50% = % Threat Gain
Support, Brawler and Avenger: PRE /10, x2 = % Threat Loss
So, game mechanically Speaking, Gaurdian and Protector Roles have the easiest time Generating threat, and the other Sentiel are the easiest at losing it.
- Table of Contents:
- I - Threat Management, Hybriding and U -
- II - The Tank's Prespective -
- III - The DPSer's Prespective -
- IV - The Support Prespective -
I. - Threat Management, Hybriding and "U"
The key to understanding Threat is to Understand the "U" of Hybriding, as well as your roles and how they work. Most people think that Hybriding is a Triangle, where how close you can get to each point between the original MMO trinity. This is more what it looks like:
*Tank* U *DPS*
*Support*
*Support*
Notice that the points between Tank and DPS do not connect? You can make a Tank that helps support it's team, You can make a Support/DPS "Corruptor/ Defender" style toon that heals and does damage or can hold it's own. You can also make a toon that does DPS Support, that in addition to doing damage, supports and buffs the teams damage output in addition to his own. You can make True Trinity Characters who are Pure Tank, Pure Support and Pure DPS. You can even make a true complete hybrid character thats decent at everything! You can make a DPSer that plays like a Tank, or a Tank that plays like a DPSer, but you can never make a Tank that holds aggro thru sheer damage alone, or a DPSer that holds aggro thru Taunts, but the two are built in 2 fundamentally different directions.
The advent of Roles and Passives as well as Blocking makes the avenue of "Pure DPS Tank" nigh impossible. Even when everyone running in Guardian Role, he who does the most damage is he with the Offensive Passive, and in taking an Offensive Passive in Gaurdian Role, you miss out on survivability. If you take a Defensive Passive for survivability, you miss out on damage. Though you can build for damage synergies and taunts with a defensive passive, or incorporate taunts in with an offensive passive. As a Tank, if you can hold aggro thru damage alone, it means you are outdamaging your party, and that your party more than likely may not be optimally specced for DPS. Additionally, in Protector Role, Energy Generation from End Builders is poor while Energy Generation from blocking is outstanding, whereas the opposite is true in Avenger/Brawler and Guardian Roles. Mathematically speaking, here's how it breaks down:
- A Tank's Damage is generated from: 30% for each Super Stat, Maybe 20-40% More if you have other powers such as Enrage, Forms and/or Agressor. However a tank must spend a good deal of time blocking in order to both generate energy and survive, and when they are blocking they are not doing damage or generating theat.
- A DPSer's Damage is generated from: 30% from each Super Stat, 80% from their Offensive Passive, 20-40% more if they have a Toggle and/or Enrage, and 20% from Avenger/Brawler Role. Also, the amount of times a DPS actually has to block is very minimal. Really, only during big AoE attacks by bosses, therefore they are nigh-constantly doing damage -and- generating threat.
- All in all, a Tanker will only do about 20-30% the damage of a DPSer in just about any given situation
II. - The Tank's Prespective
That being said, Tanking and Threat Generation is incredibly easy and incredibly fun in Champions Online , especially when compared with MMOs. But before we get into the intrucacies of tanking, I want to take a moment to explain the 2 staple powers of a Threat Generation. Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes.
Crippling Challenge (CC) is a Single- Target, Threat Generating Taunt that can be put as an Advantage on most Teir 0 and some Teir 1 Powers. It is specifically placed on low-energy costing powers that are single target only, so that you shouldn't have to rely on your End Builder to use them. The run-down and Game Mechanics of Crippling Challenge are as follows:
- Grants +400 Threat (at level 40) to each tick of the attack
- Places a 20% damage debuff on the target that last for 15 seconds. Use of Powers with Crippling Challenge refreshes this timer
- This Advantage Taunts an AI, forcing them to attack you for 4 seconds, followed by a 10-second cooldown. This effect can only be used once every 10 seconds. (So Breakdown: 4 seconds up, 6 seconds down)
- Disables Blocking in Players and AIs alike for 10 seconds. Use of Powers with Crippling Challenge refreshes this timer
Challenging Strikes (CS) is an AOE Threat Generating ability that can be put on most AOEs. The run-down and Game Mechanics of Challenging Strikes are as follows:
- Causes the power to Generate 200 Threat per tick of the attack, and then give +200 threat every second for 10 seconds, regardless of whether the power you put it on has a recharge timer or not. Use of Powers with Challenging Strikes refreshes this timer.
- Also places a 5% Damage debuff on all affected targets that lasts for 10 seconds. Use of Powers with Challenging Strikes refreshes this timer
- Multiple Powers using Challenging Strikes do stack in Threat Generation, but also serve to refresh the +200 threat per second and 5% damage debuff timer.
(And yes, these Numbers, as far as Threat Generation goes, are modified by your Presence!)
Now since the beginning of this game, there's a few myths surrounding these 2 advantages that I'd like to dispell
- The Myth: "I put CC on a Power with a cooldown, that way it has the Threat Gen over time while it's on cooldown"
- The Truth: CC has absolutely no Threat-over-time mechanic.The Threat Increase applies to EACH TICK of the power, so it's best to put Crippling Challenge on a fast ticking power.
- The Myth: "There's no point in spamming CC, because the description says it has a 10 second cooldown"
- The Truth: Only the "taunt" aspect of CC that forces an enemy to target you has a cooldown. The damage debuff and +400 threat are applied every single tick.
- The Myth: "CS ONLY works on powers that have a cooldown"
- The Truth: This was true only up until Free to Play, when only Storm of Arrows and Torrent of Arrows had a cooldown, making them the only threat generating attacks at the time. But again, this was fixed for Free to Play, giving ALL powers that can take CS advantage to have the Threat-over-time Mechanic, and allowing additional uses of CS to refresh the Threat-over-Time timer.
- The Myth: "CC will keep Baron Cimetiere from using his KILL-YOU!-Voodoo-Doll-Block"
- The Truth: Absolutely True. Just be sure to apply CC at least every 10 seconds against him and you'll be fine. This is also true for VIPER Power Armor and Commanders, as well as Nemesi who make use of blocking.
- The Myth: "The Threat from CC and CS do not stack"
- The Truth: They actually do stack with eachother. Also, CS from Multiple power sources will stack with eachother. So it's actually adventageous to take multiple powers with CS. Also, CC powers are exclusive in activiation, so there is no way to stack it from multiple Power Sources, however, tick by tick, 400 Threat per tick does add up.
Here's an oversimplified version of how the math behind Threat Generating works... Afterall it's Cyrptic math and in coding, is something far far more complex. And I have changed the actual numbers to make the math cleaner.
Threat is a mathematical formula of Threat+Damage x (+/-)% Threat Gain/Loss
Tank with 175 PRE in Protector gets +25 Threat Gain.
DPSer with 125 PRE in Brawler gets -25% Threat Loss.
Tank with 175 PRE in Protector gets +25 Threat Gain.
DPSer with 125 PRE in Brawler gets -25% Threat Loss.
- Defensive Combo R2 w/ CC + Threat From Damage = roughly (600 Threat+25%)+(200 Damage+25%) so Defensive Combo on it's own generates around 1000 (750+250) threat per 0.5 seconds. So about 2K Threat per second.
- DPSer has to exceed roughly 1250 Damage (1000 Damage + (negative 25%) Threat) per 0.5 seconds ( 2500 DPS) to gain aggro from the tank
Note that if Challenging Strikes is running on the target at the same time, the DPSer has to do even more DPS to gain aggro over the Tank.
- Also, most Crippling Challenges generate 400 Threat ( w/ for safety of numbers) doing about 200 Damage. In that case, generating a total of 650 Threat per activation, which is still roughly 1300 Threat per second. Again, Challenging Strikes taking that Threat per Second higher.
If you want to go the "Aggro thru damage route" It just is Damage x %Threat Gain = Total Threat.
- Example: Charged up Haymaker that hits for 2000 damage produces 2500 Threat after 2 seconds, then has typically about 3-5 seconds of energy building, and then another 2 second charge before the threat is generated again. If the DPSer exceeds 3350 Damage the same 7-9 second period, they will pull aggro off the tank.
And lastly, there are alot more variables than this in the actual math. Everything here is just for the sake of clean numbers to give a better idea of the math.
Just note changes in PRE will change these numbers.
As I said, thats an oversimplified view of it. But given those numbers, it does give an idea of just how easy it is for a tank to generate threat over their party, and why DPS is not the best route to threat generation.
So whats the simple explanation? Thats Easy! When tanking, it's adventageous to put Challenging Strikes on multiple AOE powers, refreshing them every 10 seconds while spamming Crippling Challenge in between.
But you might ask: "What about doing damage?" Well, as a tank, you're there to hold the enemy's attention so that other people don't take damage, not really so much to do damage. But since there is no way of "gauging" Threat or seeing how much threat you have over your allies, its more of an art. If you feel you have a decent aggro gain over your party, why not do some damage for a while?
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But before I get started, Let me tell you a little bit about the entries below.
Electric Tank
User-friendlyness: Great
Passive: Lightning Reflexes or Defiance
Crippling Challenge: Lighting Arc
Challenging Strikes: Sparkstorm w/ Electric Personality
Supportive Powers: Lightning Storm w/ Stolen Thunder, Electric Sheathe w/ Matter-Energy Union
Block: Force Shield w/ Force Sheathe
Energy Unlock: Ionic Reverberation
Stat Spread: S-Pre or Con S-End Gear: Dex and Dodge/Avoidance (if LR), Rec (if Defiance)
The Big Idea: Can run attacks along side of it's Challenging Strikes, Active Midigation thru knockdown and knockback
Fire Tank
User-friendliness: EPIC
Passive: Defiance
Crippling Challenge: Ego Blade Weaponry (Orange) or Fire Strike
Challenging Strikes: Pyre
Supportive Powers: Fire Flight, Flashfire, (a Lunge Power), Ego Blade Breech
Block: Fire Shield
Energy Unlock: Thermal Reverberation
Stat Spread: S-Con S-Pre Gear: Int/ End (Str Optional)
The Big Idea: Melee Tank that has good damage and never runs out of energy
Force Tank
User-friendliness: Passable
Passive: Personal Force Field
Crippling Challenge: Force Blast
Challenging Strikes: Crushing Wave and/or Force Eruption
Supportive Powers: Flight, Inertial Dampening Field Field Surge, Mindful Reinforcement, Bionic Shielding, Force Bolts w/ Energy Refraction
Block: Force Shield w/ Force Sheathe
Energy Unlock: none (Protection Field), (Force Sheathe)
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-Pre Gear: End
The Big Idea: Actual Health Bar rarely takes damage, Ranged Tank
Ice Tank
User-friendliness: Good
Passive: Invulnerability
Crippling Challenge: Ice Blast w/ Hard Frost
Challenging Strikes: Frost Breath w/ Frost Bite, and/or Avalanche
Supportive Powers: Shatter, Ice Barrier, Ice Burst w/ Freeze Dirtbag, Wall of Ice, Ice Cage, Ice Sheathe / Supercooled
Block: Ice Shield
Energy Unlock: Molecular Self-Assembly
Stat Spread: S-Pre, S-Dex, Gear: Con
The Big Idea: Active Damage Midigation thru Invulnerability and Crowd Control
Archery Tank
User-friendliness: Decent
Passive: Lighting Reflexes
Crippling Challenge: Straight Shot w/ Split the Arrow
Challenging Strikes: Storm of Arrows and Torrent of Arrows w/ Relentless Recurve
Supporting Powers: Acrobatics, Tempest Form, Bountiful Chi Resurgence w/ Resurgent Reiki, Evasive Maneuvers, Strafe w/ Aversion, Explosive Arrow w/ Where's the Ka-boom?
Block: Force Shield w/ Force Sheathe
Energy Unlock: Hunter's Insticts and Tempest Form
Stat Spread: S-Pre, S-Dex, Gear: Int and Ego
The Big Idea; Dodge-Tank/ Ranged Tank with Excellent Threat Generation over a wide area at a Range
Munitions Tank
User-friendliness: Excellent
Passive: Defiance
Crippling Challenge: Assault Rifle, or Two Gun Mojo w/ nailed to the Ground
Challenging Strikes: SMG, and/or Lead Tempest w/ Tread Softly
Supportive Powers: Acrobatics, Holdout Shot w/ Stim Pack, Breakaway Shot
Block: Force Block w/ Force Sheathe
Energy Unlock: Killer Instincts, Tempest Form
Stat Spread: S-Dex, S-Con, Gear:Ego and Pre
The Big Idea: Versatile and easy-to-use Ranged Tank
Power Armor Tank
User-friendliness: EPIC
Passive: Defiance
Crippling Challenge: Power Gauntlet
Challenging Strikes: Minigun and Micromunitions
Supportive Powers: Any Flight, Inertial Dampening Field, Protection Field, Flashfire and Thermal Reverb
Block: Force Shield w/ Force Sheathe
Energy Unlock: Thermal Reverberation or Molecular Self-Assembly
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-End, Gear: Pre
The Big Idea: Generates an Absolute Ton of Threat over a wide area of targets at a range, made for Ranged Tanking
Gadget Tank
User Friendliness: Passable
Passive: Defiance or Invuln
Crippling Challenge: Experimental Blaster
Challenging Strikes: Experimental Burst Ray, Chainsaw Gauntlet
Supportive Powers: Toxic Nanites, Bionic Shielding, Support Drones, Conviction, Inertial Dampening Field
Block: Energy Shield
Energy Unlock: Molecular Self-Assembly
Stat Spread: S-Pre, S-Int, Gear: Con and Int
The Big Idea: Support Tank. Excels at keeping itself and others alive.
Dual Blades Tank
User-friendliness: Excellent
Passive: Lightning Reflexes
Crippling Challenge: Storm's Harvest
Challenging Strikes: Sword Cyclone
Supportive Powers: Acrobatics, Bountiful Chi Resurgence w/ Resurgent Reiki, Thunderbolt Lunge and Evasive maneuvers, Dragon's Wrath
Block: Energy Shield w/ Laser Knight or Parry / Elusive Monk
Energy Unlock: Tempest Form
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-Dex Gear: Str (to 70). Pre
The Big Idea: Is an Excellent tank all around for strict Melee
Unarmed Martial Art Tank
User-friendliness: Great
Passive: Lightning Reflexes
Crippling Challenge: Crashing Wave kick or Thundering Kicks or Defensive Combo
Challenging Strikes: Inexorable Tides
Supportive Powers: Acrobatics, Bountiful Chi Resurgence w/ Resurgent Reiki, Thunderbolt Lunge and Evasive maneuvers, Dragon's Kick w/ Lashing Dragon's Tail
Block: Energy Shield w/ Laser Knight or Parry w/ Elusive Monk
Energy Unlock: Tempest Form or Master Form w/ Storm's Eye Prana
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-Dex Gear: Str ( to 70) and Dodge/Avoidance, Pre
The Big Idea: Outright Dodge-tank
Ego Tank
User-friendliness: Excellent
Passive: Defiance or Invuln
Crippling Challenge: Ego Blade Weaponry w/ Thought Sever
Challenging Strikes: Ego Blade Frenzy, TK Eruption w/ Enhanced Form, Ego Sprites w/ Slave Mentality
Supportive Powers: Acrobatics, Tempest Form or Mental Discipline w/ Id Blades, Ego Blade Breech
Block: Energy Shield w/ Laser Knight (Defiance) or Force Shield w/ Force Sheathe (Invuln)
Energy Unlock: Ego Reverb
Stat Spread: S-Ego, S-Con (Defiance) or Dex(Invuln) Gear: Dex & Pre
The Big Idea: Excellent Self-contained Melee AOE Tank, Requires very few Supportive Powers to work well. Ego Blade Breech should only be used for Debuff
Telepathy Tank
User-friendliness: Passable
Passive: Invulnerability
Crippling Challenge: Ego Blast w/ Mind Opener
Challenging Strikes: Ego Sprites w/ Slave Mentality, Telekinetic Eruption
Supportive Powers: Ego Storm w/ Malevolent Manifestation, Collective Will w/ Consume Will, Mindful Reinforcement w/Revitalizing Boost, Inertial Dampening Field
Block: Ebon Void w/ Voracious Darkness
Energy Unlock: Telepathic Reverb
Stat Spread: S-Int, S-Pre, Gear: Rec & Con
The Big Idea: Decent Trash Mob tank that has some utility, as well as some Pet Support
Might Tank
User-friendliness: EPIC
Passive: Defiance
Crippling Challenge: Defensive Combo
Challenging Strikes: Shockwave, Havoc Stomp w/ Cry Havoc or Iron Cyclone w/ Vortexing Technique
Supportive Powers: Super Jump, Enrage, Uppercut and Agressor, Haymaker w/ Nullifying Punch and/or Demolish w/ Below the Belt
Block: Energy Shield or Ebon Void w/ Voracious Darkness
Energy Unlock: none (Defiance)
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-Str or Pre, Gear: Str or Pre, and End
The Big Idea: Is an Excellent Tank all around at all Ranges and situations. Demolish and Haymaker should only be used for their Debuffs
Heavy Weapon Tank
User-friendliness: EPIC
Passive: Defiance
Crippling Challenge: Eruption ( Magma Burst optional) and/or Annihilate
Challenging Strikes: Brimstone ( w/ Aftershock Optional), Arc of Ruin w/ No Quarter, (Skullcrusher/ Skewer optional)
Supportive Powers: Agressor, Cleave, (Earthsplitter or Vicious Descent or Decmiate), Conviction, (Enrage Optional)
Block: (Works with a variety of different Blocks: Energy Shield, Fire Shield, Gaurd and Ebon Void)
Energy Unlock: Molecular Self-Assembly or Thermal Reverb
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-Str or Pre, Gear: Rec, Int
The Big Idea: The Quintessential DPS Tank. Has no trouble maintaining escalated damage while tanking.
Darkness Tank
User-friendliness: Good
Passive: Invulnerability or Regeneration
Crippling Challenge: Shadow Blast
Challenging Strikes: Shadow Embrace
Supportive Powers: Flight or Fireflight, Ebon Rift, Howl w/ Make them Tremble, Shadow Shroud, Lifedrain
Block: Ebon Void w/ Voracious Darkness
Energy Unlock: Spirit Reverberation
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-End Gear: Pre
The Big Idea: Quintessential ranged tank, only with alot of tricks up it's sleeve that help it stay alive.
Magic Tank
User-friendliness: Good
Passive: Defiance
Crippling Challenge: Eldritch Blast
Challenging Strikes: Skarn's Bane and Ego Sprites, and/or Pyre
Supportive Powers: Flashfire, Storm Sigils, Circle of Primal Dominion
Block: Force Shield w/ Force Sheathe
Energy Unlock: Molecular Self-Assembly or Thermal Reverb
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-Pre, Gear: Int
The Big Idea: Outright AOE Tank
Bestial Tank
User-friendliness: EPIC
Passive: Regeneration, Invuln or Defiance
Crippling Challenge: Shred w/ Penetrating Strikes
Challenging Strikes: Frenzy
Supportive Powers: Howl or Enrage, Pounce, (Bountiful Chi Resurgence or Conviction)
Block: Force Sheild w/ Force Sheathe
Energy Unlock: none (Defiance)
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-Str, Gear for Pre and Rec, Int
The Big Idea: Holding Aggro while Increasing Damage thru Shred and Bleeds and Enrage
Infernal Tank
User-friendliness: Good
Passive: Defiance or Invuln
Crippling Challenge: Lash and/or Devour Essence w/ Phlebotomist
Challenging Strikes: Venemous Breath, Vile Cyclone w/ Vortexing Technique
Supportive Powers: Scything Blade, Flashfire and Thermal Reverb, Ebon Rift, Rebirth
Block: Ebon Void w/ Voracious Darkness
Energy Unlock: Spirit Reverb or Thermal Reverb
Stat Spread: S-Con, S-Pre, Gear for Str and End/Int
The Big Idea: A Pretty good-all-around AOE Tank.
The best part is, is each of these tank builds only require 7-9 powers roughly so there is plenty of room to build or experiment on them, or hybrid out into other Frameworks or build for more utility. What you do with the extra 5-7 powers you'll have left over is completely up to you.
That brings us to the next part... whats the rest of the party or non-tank-based toons to do?
As far as DPS goes it's pretty easy. Since Free to Play, it's been exceptionally easier for a Tank to hold aggro over their party, so for the most part, DPS-based toons don't have to be afraid of holding back. If you don't feel like chancing it, you can always switch out a CON-based Primary Defense for a PRE-based one, or go back and forth as the situation calls for it. Afterall, switching a peice of gear out takes maybe 5-10 seconds, and you can actually do it during combat if need be.
If you're a survivable DPSer, you may not mind pulling aggro against trash, if you're a glass cannon, you might. For the most part, during trinity-style play, it's usually not a good idea as a DPSer if you have aggro over the tank. Afterall, as explained earlier, tanks have very limited ways of gaining energy and dealing damage. So Tanks literally need to have an enemy's attension to do their job. For instances where you don't want a mob's attension, your best bet is an Aggro Dump.
Aggro Dumps are powers that remove or lower your threat rating. Here's a list of the Aggro Dumps in Champions Online and how they work:
As for Support characters, it gets a little bit more tricky, yet still just as simple.
It's no secret. Healing pulls aggro. If you heal before the tank has a chance to establish threat, you'll pull aggro. If you over-heal, you'll pull aggro, but I'll get to that later. Whats not so well known is that Damage generates more Threat than Healing.
One of the biggest and most frustrating chokepoints for a healer is situations like the one found when fighting the 5th Nemesis in Nemcon, where enemies just keep comming, and when they spawn in, they just gun straight for the guy throwing the heals. In these cases, 1 aware party member of any sort, doesn't matter how they are built, can get the aggro off the healer just by doing damage to whatever is threatening the healer at the time. But there definately is a bit of an art and a science behind healing aggro and how it works.
In Champions Online, the concept of "overhealing" is definately in place just like it is in other MMOs. However, it's also alot more forgiving than just about any other game out there. Healing aggro is measured against an arbitrary number called the "Overhealing Threshold." There's no way to gauge this number, but when you cross it, you'll pull a single enemy of the lowest classification available at the time. It's more often than not, a Minion. But if there are no minions available, it will be a Villain, and so on and so forth from up to Master Villain, where it caps. But also, the higher classifications of Enemies also have much higher Healing Thresholds. Infact, you cannot pull healing aggro off of Enforcers or above.
So you overheal. And I just want to touch on this because I see it too often in practice. Healer pulls aggro thru overhealing and runs away and promptly dies. You have to remember, most of the time, Even though you are a support toon, you probably have built yourself with some measure of damage/ survivability, and more often than not, you only pulled 1-3 minions. You should be able to have a way to kill it yourself.
If you can't handle what you pulled, as is typically the case if you are the Mind or the Grimoire or if you are built as strict support, run to someone who can do something about it like a DPSer or even stand in the Tank's or someone else's AOE. As I explained earlier, more often than not, damage can pull aggro off a healer.
Another option is to take Pets like Malcom (Arcane Construct) who have Challenging Strikes. That way you can continue to do your job as Support, and they can just rip the thing off of you and take it's attension til someone else can deal with it, or even while you deal with it yourself.
If you run away from the party, no one knows you have aggro. So thus, no one will know to save you and you will die and then not be able to do your job unless someone else in the party has a Rez, or if you have a Self Rez. So just remember to weigh your options before you take off running.
One thing I definately reccomend for any freeform Support build, or anyone who ever intends to take up a support role, an absolute MUST HAVE is Paliate w/ Absolve. As stated earlier, Paliate is a Click-Heal that when taken with Absolve, it removes threat from a target completely, and heals anywhere from 20-50% (or more) of the Target's Health, based on rank, buffed by PRE. So since most Support characters, even Support-Tank and Support-DPS Hybrids are PRE based or geared, this is an absolute must-have for anyone looking to take on anything remotely support-based. Other reccomended powers include, but are not limited to:
Bottom line is being a support-based or themed toon, it's all about weighing your options. You probably have the hardest job between deciding who to heal, when to heal them, which heal to throw on them, If you should deal with the Minion you just pulled or deal with it yourself. You probably need to be more aware of whats going on around you moreso than any other member of a party.What it really comes down to as a Support toon, when it comes to Threat Management is good decisionmaking and situational awareness. it's as easy as learning from Mistakes and paying attension to whats going on around you.
So all in all, Managing Threat in Champions Online is just that simple. Taking all of these principles into account will help you nto only run well on a team, but will help you run well as a team. Thank you Dev Team, and F2P Beta Testers who busted your tails for Champions Online: Free For All with all the new changes that have been made to Threat Management. These new changes have certainly come a long way since the game's inception to allow Teaming to be both simple and fun for anyone.
As for you reading this I hope this guide makes your teaming experiences just that much easier and that much more enjoyable. Thank you for taking time to read this and Welcome to Champions Online F2P!
Yes, but even using Focus and Enrage, if someone else in your team is using one of those AND and Offensive Passive, they are still doing more damage than you. Trying to out-DPS a DPSer is very much like iceskating uphill, defending the Alamo or listening to Coleplay.
This can be easiest demonstrated using Might
Both Defiance and Unstoppable can take Enrage and Agressor at R3. and 1 Focus if you take the MA End Builder, and both can build Str/Dex, gear for Con&Ego for maximum effect.
And lets give them all the exact same attacks. Beatdown, Retailiation, Mighty leap, Roomsweeper, Demolish, Uppercut, Circle of Ebon Wrath, Immolation
Both can run in Guardian Role so as not to give Bias to the 20% Damage Increase from Brawler Role
So both can have
60% Damage from 2 Superstats
8 Stacks Enrage +64% Damage
5 Stacks Agressor R3 +115% Damage
1 Stack Focus +8% Damage
Crit Rate: 25%
Crit Severity ( for sake of clean numbers) 50%
Uppercut Rank 3: +20% Damage if enemy is immune to Knockback/KnockUp
Demolish Rank 2 with Below the Belt: +33% Damage ( due to -10 Target Damage Resists from Rank 2, -13 Target Damage Resist from Below the Belt)
Immolation: +50% Damage
Circle of Ebon Wrath Rank 3: +30% Damage
So another upwards of 135% Damage from Buffs from attacks alone
With Retaliation Rank 3, you can get one good hit in for +120% Damage on top of that after you block!
Defiance Rank 3: +0% Damage
Unstoppable Rank 3: +70% Damage
Oh wait a second...
DPSer built to do Damage actually does out-damage Tank built to do DPS.
Not to mension you put this whole thing together and only have 3 powers and maybe 7 advantage points left, and have absolutely no actual way of holding aggro!
Some Archery thoughts:
Archer tanks might be better off with Invuln than Lightning Reflexes, since Aversion will improve Invuln but not LR.
If you're going to put Energy Shield with Archery (or any ranged), you should probably have TBL to frequently proc the LK, and TBL/Evasive is a good combo anyway.
If you do have TBL/Evasive, might as well have Form of the Tempest and some sort of alpha (Dragon's Claws is the easiest for synergy).
A lot of block enhancers should work very well with Archery, including Retaliation (makes Torrent of Arrows beastly).
I have been totally unable to play a tank myself other than making taking by too much damage dps types. I will have to try some of your tank builds to see if they fit my over zealous/living on the edge playstyle.
At some point, somebody is gonna have to explain this to me. Maybe it's just an illusory effect produced by its new access to Crippling Challenge, but Defensive Combo wasn't all that great to begin with.
Just getting Crippling Challenge, along with Challenging Strike and perhaps some PRE to some measure has always seemed more than sufficient in order to maintain aggro.
As a matter of fact, spamming Defensive Combo seemed like a complete waste of time when I could maintain a steady stream of damage. If anything, spamming Crippling Challenge isn't even that much effective when your teammates are also, probably unknowingly, spamming it.
I tried to like Defensive Combo, I really did; but despite testing it in actual lairs, I have yet to get proof that it is worth it.
Oh! I'd gladly explain it. Here's an oversimplified version of how the math behind Threat Generating works... Afterall it's Cyrptic math and in coding, is something far far more complex. And I have changed the actual numbers to make the math cleaner.
Threat is a mathematical formula of Threat+Damage x (+/-)% Threat Gain/Loss
Tank with 175 PRE in Protector gets +25 Threat Gain.
(sake of simplicity) DPSer in Brawler gets -25% Threat Loss.
Defensive Combo R2 w/ CC + Threat From Damage = roughly (600 Threat+25%)+(200 Damage+25%) so Defensive Combo on it's own generates around 1000 (750+250) threat per 0.5 seconds. So about 2K Threat per second.
So with this in mind...
DPSer has to exceed roughly 1250 Damage (1000 Damage + (negative 25%) Threat) per 0.5 seconds ( 2500 DPS) to gain aggro from the tank
Note that if Challenging Strikes is running on the target at the same time, the DPSer has to do even more DPS to gain aggro over the Tank.
Also, most Crippling Challenges generate 400 Threat ( w/ for safety of numbers doing 200 Damage). In that case, generating a total of 650 Threat per activation, which is still roughly 1300 Threat per second. Again, Challenging Strikes taking that Threat per Second higher.
And lastly, there are alot more variables than this in the actual math. Everything here is just for the sake of clean numbers to give a better idea of the math.
As I said, thats an oversimplified view of it. But given those numbers, it does give an idea of just how easy it is for a tank to generate threat over their party, and why steady streams of damage once you have a good lead in aggro seems to do the job.
If you want to go the "Aggro thru damage route" It really just is Damage x %Threat Gain = Total Threat.
Example: Charged up Haymaker that hits for 2000 damage produces 2500 Threat after 1.5 seconds. Any DPSer who exceeds 3000 Damage in the same period of time will pull aggro off of the tank.
Edit: ...I should actually put this somewhere in the guide... Thanks S-Prime!
That may work when you have a group of Hybrid builds, but when you have even one optimized DPSer in your group, it's impossible to control aggro this way. Against a tank that doesn't spam CC between blocks, my high-DPS toon will pull aggro off of them in under 30 seconds, reliably. In Protector Role, you only generate an extra 20% threat, modified up by Pre. Because of the fact that you have to block more often than those that don't have the enemy's attention, you just won't ever keep up with the aggro being generated by Offensive-Passive users without some form of Taunt in the mix. I know you can probably think about ways that you can up your DPS higher and higher and higher in Protector Role with a Defensive Passive, but keep in mind that you'll never actually out-damage an optimized DPSer because they'll be able to stack all the same things you are AND have an Offensive Passive on top of that. Trying to rely totally on DPS to hold aggro is sketchy and inconsistent at best. Taunts exist in the game and make controlling aggro not only easier, but safer, by allowing you enough of an aggro ceiling to block liberally.
Also, I really don't think you see alot of DPSers that spam CC. CC only really appears on low-damage, energy efficient attacks. I don't know of anyone who uses Two Gun Mojo or Fire Strike as their main source of DPS - they're using Gatling Gun and Conflag. The only time this ever occurs is when you're running PvE content with PvPers, which most are smart enough to have their CC advantage be the last thing they purchased, so they only need to spend 3-5G to be able to switch from PvP to PvE.
Its not required, but it really does make holding aggro ALOT easier than not. Tap a CS power, Tap your CC power 2-4 times, Block big attack and repeat will keep the most optimized DPSer off the top of the aggro chart. Defensive Combo jsut genreates more threat than other powers because it puts out more aggro than CS does on each hit of the attack, and can stack the threat from CC on top of that.
It leaves me distressed though - I'm having much fun playing an infernal tank, but this mechanics seem to indicate a good tank is one that is forced to gimp himself. Crippling challenge costs 3 advantage points which is why I never had it on my main attack, to be able to also take it to rank 3 for the damage. I used crippling challenge on my lunge instead and used it about once every 5 seconds.
Yet from what I understand, not only is crippling challenge 1/4 as effective on powers with cooldown, it will also force you to lower your damage of your main attack, and the best way to draw a lot of aggro is to use near useless T0 powers since they can be comboed at 0.3/0.4/0.5 seconds, making the ticks come faster?
On top of that stacking crippling strikes from multiple powers means having to spend an extra power on a duplicate just for the sake of more aggro...
A very annoying system that favors taking powers that are good for bumping up your aggro, but hurt your build every other way.
Crippling Challenge should at the very least be reduced to a cost of 1 advantage point so it won't hurt your main attack, and the extra threat per tick should be calculated according to the tick's time length. And crippling strikes... Just shouldn't stack like that.
Crippling Challenge is 3 points because it will also disable the block ability of any-one/thing it debuffs. This includes players, making it a "must" for pvp. Which is unfortunate because a lot of group members will have this on their attacks which can lead to aggro problems.
EDIT: Almost forgot. Great guide! Hope this reduces some of the froob questions in zone chat.
I have been getting many mixed signals in regard to that affirmation. Though it is true that I spend my time mostly PUGging or otherwise with acquaintances of mine.
From what I've seen, Defensive Combo was incapable of reliably maintaining aggro; I've seen people do it mind you, but that might have been the result of stacking PRE on top of it, while then I had no PRE whatsoever.
You'd be awfully surprised...
I've seen it done more often than I can count... though mind you, I am well aware that they probably aren't doing it intentionally. Most of the time, it's exactly that, people who use PVP builds and don't know any better.
I hear all you've been saying and yet, I still don't get it.
Maybe it's because of my inability to read between numbers or some lazyness on my part; yet everything I know seems to state otherwise.
If anything, with the buff to Protector role and the cleanup on Challenging Strikes, tanking should be even easier than it was before, which was fine to begin with.
Mind you, I am not advocating against the use of Crippling Challenge, Challenging Strikes and Tank DPS in general. All of those tools should be in a tank's arsenal and used properly. All I'm saying is that Defensive Combo is not necessary at all to maintain aggro.
Which brings us to the matter of the fully optimized DPS. Yes, without a little PRE and maybe Circle of Primal Dominion, it can be quite difficult to maintain aggro over a proper DPS. Still, if after that, he's still pulling aggro off the tank, he's probably either showing off or being incredibly irresponsible.
To quote the guide itself :
I've been on that side of the fence mind you, which is why I picked up Palliate with the Absolve advantage.
I have yet to encounter a DPS whose damage was so intense that it required me to spec for Defensive Combo on top of the traditional methods. And if I did, that would probably only happen in a guild/whatever context, where he would probably know better than to not have invested in aggro dumps...
Still, chances are that I am wrong, I just don't see the point of taking Defensive Combo at all. Unless perhaps you're a Behemoth and as such, have precious little choices.
I think you're kinda overstating this. The problem isn't nearly that big. There is DPS loss by choosing to becomes a "Tank" as opposed to a "Survivable DPSer", but the difference isn't all the huge. The difference between Rank 2 and Rank 3 is only 20% damage, and you can still get Rank 2 and get Crippling Challenge.
The powers that have Crippling Challenge are set up in a very logical way, its just not something that's readily obvious if you're looking at it from a purely optimized DPS standpoint. See, as a "Tank" you spend alot of time blocking. A good Tank tends to be blocking about 50% of the time and splits attacking and self buffing/healing among the other 50%. Since you spend so much time blocking, you're already losing alot of time that you could be generating aggro, if you had to waste even more time using your end-builder, you'd hardly ever get attacks off. That's why CC is set up the way it is. It's set up to work under the circumstances where you want to use it. It works so that you can gt off a quick, cheap attack and get back to blocking. Endgame enemies hit hard, especially on Very Hard and Elite. You need to block, or you need to have a person (or two people if you're fighting Valerian Scarlet) totally devoted to healing you and doing nothing else if you decide not to block at all. There is nothing that prevents you from taking high-DPS powers in your build at all, they will just be suboptimal for generating threat because DPSers do more damage than you. But if you're soloing, who cares about holding threat? There's no one to protect, so go ahead and kill stuff. Also, not all CC powers are T0. Devour Essence, Assault Rifle, and Bullet Ballet are all really good powers that do good DPS and can take CC, and they aren't the only ones. But again, even though those powers have good damage, you'll find they are pretty cheap, energy-wise, as well. You don't put CC on your main DPS attack, you put it on your lowest-costing attack.
Not only that, but as a Tank, you don't need to be throwing out maximum damage. With 2-3 others that are focusing on nothing but damage, and rarely if ever have to stop DPSing to block, bosses will go down pretty fast. Using more DPS as a Tank wouldn't increase your speed at which you take down bosses by anything more than a negligable amount. I just can't think of any MMO where the person that's built to receive the most damage and keep attention off their allies is also the one dealing the most damage. If this were possible, why play anything but a Tank at all? You have the best survivability and the best DPS, what's the point of other people in the group building any differently? Then you run into a whole new problem where everyone's competing to steal aggro and dish out damage and everyone's playing the exact same way. Champions isn't about being like everyone else, it's about being the Hero you want to be.
You'll never see Crippling Challenge get reduced to a 1-point advantage, it is just so much more powerful than that. Crippling Challenge actually adds more to a power than Ranking it up to 3, but I don't forsee them ever making 4pt advantages. It doesn't just generate threat, it forces and enemy to attack you for 4 seconds, it debuffs their damage by 20%, it breaks blocks. These are all potent effects. Sometimes damage isn't the best answer, nor does it make your build the most powerful it can be. There are times that just adding some Utility can benefit you far more than raw damage will.
--Edited to Add--
SPrime, if you'd like, hit me up in a PM, and I'll bring you along on a few TT or other Lair Runs and we'll compare notes. I'd love to have you along if you're interested.
Maybe I should have been clearer in what I mean.
My main attack is Devour Essence, and yes I'd prefare Crippling Challenge to be on it. The problem rises though, that in order to put Crippling Challange on Devour Essence, I'll basically be forced down to rank 2, which is more than fine in group pve, but I will lose rank 3 which buffs my overall DPS by 20%. That's not one of those +20% that you get from advantages and buffs - this is the basic damage on which all other precentage bonuses build on.
So to strengthen my aggro in group pve, I'll need to remove 20% of my total damage for pvp and solo play. That's a huge hit for a character to take in order to focus on tanking. I played other MMOs where you can spec abilities that increase your aggro and you need to sacrifice some viability in other areas, never have I seen such a drastic sacrifice being forced for it though.
If Crippling Challenge does too much, perhaps it needs to be broken into seperate different advantages. 1 point for the taunt and aggro boost, 2 points for the shield break. That way you can put those advantages on different skills, and will also solve the issue of clueless PvPers accidentally taunting.
Hmm.. it sounds like you're more at home playing a Survivable DPSer than a tank. Afterall, after Testing, Infernal is probably one of the hardest things to make a tank of because in it's own framework, it doesn't have a lot of Utility as far as Tanking goes, and so you have to look to other trees like Fire and Darkness and Sorcery to get that utility and still stick within the theme. It does however, within Framework with minimally going out of Framework to Fire, Darkness and Sorcery, does allow for a very Survivable DPSer.
Unfortunately Protector Role by design does limit your avenues for upper end damage. But in any game also, Tanks do take a hit to their damage for Survivability and Utility. Brutes and Tankers could do great damage in CoX, but they didn't hold their aggro thru damage either, and even they were still outdamaged by Blasters, Stalkers and Scrappers. If you want to be good at PvP as well as soloplay, and still be able to do maximum DPS and still be able to survive in PvE, running a Survivable DPSer with a Crippling Challenge, reserving 1-2 floating advantage points that can float between 1-2 Challenging Strikes and something else at a minimal cost to your damage might be more your style of play.
Defensive Combo only grants 1 stack of Defiance which is roughly only about 8-12% Damage Resistance, depending on your CON.
EDIT: I like tanking as a group role and I'm doing pretty well with my pve build in pvp all things considered. Losing 20% of damage just because tanks are forced to take an advantage is just too much, though.
Oh, you can't stack it up using defensive combo? I must be misremembering. I thought it gave one stack per attack with the same normal cap as defiance.
Is the same true of that archery or munitions ability that gives defiance when advantaged (can't recall the name)?
Both Defensive Combo and Breakaway shot used to stack it waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back in the day. But nowadays it's only 1-and-refresh
I demand a sticky!
With proper support in the group any optimized dps can tank. Using a martial arts build in brawler with WotW, Dragons Claws and Force Sheathe , I was able to put out a consistent near 4k dps. This was with two IDF, some dbuffs on the cosmic, an AoRP and an occasional heal. The tank just could not take aggro when the claws where critting in the range of 12-13k nearly as fast as they could be charged.
If a full team of self sufficient optimized dps has a couple IDF you won't need a tank except for maybe some elite content. Just learn when to block.
Funny thing is that is close to the DPS my top DPSer puts out, and an optimized Tank can keep aggro off of me indefinitely. Have your tank use this advice and see how much easier your life gets
You deserve a Stickie!
Maximizing dps is more than just stacking as many buffs/debuffs as possible. You are forgetting energy return. In your example you've at least geared towards some CON to make the Defiant! buff give decent protection and provide reasonable energy return. However, Unstoppable's energy return scales off REC now. Good luck fitting REC into your STR/DEX super statted build.
Which would do more damage in the long run? Even with specifics I'm not sure. Simply waving +70% damage, which is being added to well over +200% damage already, does not prove your point. Either way my point wasn't that a defensive passive user could out-dps a similarly built offensive passive user but that the gap isn't as much as you make it out to be.
EDIT: You should also pick a different offensive clicky. Lock and Load does not directly buff the damage of anything but ranged technology attacks. Increased crit chance and power cost redux? Yes. Damage? No. Furthermore, the damage buffs provided by the aspects/aggressor are not the same as other damage buffs. Their damage buffs are multiplicative, not additive. Similarly any resistance debuffs you put on the target multiply the damage dealt. Neither aggressor nor resistance debuffs fit into a +%dmg number by simple addition.
But still, it shows you can get alot of damage out of a tank, but the more you want to build for damage, the less you are actually building a Tank and the more you're actually building a DPSer.
I mean at the end of all that, it's an extreme example but, someone going that route has dumped 11 powers into just "more damage" and they really only have 3 Powers and 10 Advantage Points at most left to make that DPS Build into a Tank Build.
Not to mention the DPS-built Tank will have massive problems holding aggro, -and- doing damage just simply because it has no PRE, giving nothing to help maintain a threat advantage over the DPS-built DPSer, thus putting their energy efficency, and by proxy, all that damage they built for, in the toilet.
My intension was to prove both you and Will's Points that, yes, you can build a tank for damage, but also, the DPSer will just flat out do more damage because of the advantage of an Offensive Passive and Brawler/ Avenger Role even when using the exact same damage buffs and synergies.
What you mean is the build in your example would have problems because of a lack of PRE. DEX/PRE is a wonderful stat combination, and until Cryptic puts a mob in game that requires CON to tank it will remain my favorite stat combo for tanks.
-Pi
EDIT: OMG Falchoin! I JUST noticed your new avatar has a IDF "aura"! :eek:
Tres' cool dude, tres' cool
Kiity is 1337. Don't mess with Kitty.
Oh, without a Doubt! I was speaking more about the example of ...
Without PRE at least Super-statted, or Circle of Primal Dominion ( which can't be used at the same time as Ebon Wrath), the DPS-built DPS Might-er example will be pulling aggro off the DPS-built Tank Might-er example without contest, just given how threat works.
However, if the DPS-built Tank Might'er example was smart, he'd take Str to 70 thru Gear and go Dex/Pre with Super Stats, just as you say! -which still would leave him doing less damage than the DPS-built DPS Might-er example once put into practice.
Edit: OMG, the kitty does have IDF! NERF!!!!!
Personally on a "build a scary tank" line of thought I've been thinking the following powers in no particular order (Though this all could be just madness on my part it certainly is 100% untested):
Ice blast (with hard frost and CC)
Ice Cage (With CC)
Ego Sprites (CS naturally and healing advantage)
Ice Breath (Frostbite MAAAAAYBE CS but this is just setting up the ice blast)
And of course Circle of Primal Power
Defensive set and self-healing to flavor, I'd lean defiance though for the endurance returns.
Step 1: Circle if you think you're gonna stay put
Step 2: Ice breath to proc some slow and CS
Step 3: Ego sprites for numerous ticks angry fun
Step 4: Ice Cage (a single tap yields multiple ticks of CC damage.... unless I'm wrong, but it is now DoT)
Step 5: If that wasn't enough overkill agro, tapspam your ice blast. The hard frost makes it very damaging when tapspammed vs a chilled target. The CC is throwing on bonus threat on top of that works at real long ranges. The blasts of ice should randomly reproc your chill too.
Step 6: ???
Step 7: Profit?
Regardless if you lose agro the enemy won't be going anywhere fast.
Is there anything wrong with crippling challenge on ice cage? I see little mention of it. But I know it deals cold DoT and I know each tick of damage supposedly procs CC threat bonus and it does take CC... seems like a no brainer though I might be missing something here.
I had used a Void Horror in my testing and timed about how long it took for the Void Horror to steal aggro. One application of Ice Cage w/ CC vs two hits of Ice Blast w/ CC... Ice Blast w/ CC provided more threat every time. If Ice Cage w/ CC had applied CC every tick my results would have been reversed.
Doh! So much for fire and forget CC.
Fire makes an absolutely Epic Tank. my next tank I'm levelling will be Fire.
In cases where Lightning Reflexes can be used, when taken with Master Form, Dex buffs how much energy you get back whenever you Dodge something, as well as the damage bonus the Form grants. It basically turns LR into Defiance, only with different Midigation mechanics and more energy return. Tempest form is recommended for the Dual Blades Tank simply because the set itself is based around Critical hits, and works exceptionally well even when tanking, and the same is true of Ego Tanks.
As far as why Ice with Dex: whereas Defiance goes off strict Con, where Invuln is reccomended, because it scales with your super stats, it's easier to get a Higher super Stat bonus to maximize both Resistance and Damage Ignorance/Midigation when gearing Dex/ Pre or Dex/Con, as the two stats do not use the same gear slots. Con and Pre actually share all the same peices of gear, most notably Primary Defense, whereas Dex most notably uses Primary Offence, leaving some openness to what you want to do with your Primary Utility in terms of Int, Ego or End. That and Dex benefits an Ice Tank more than most other stats because of the +Crit Sev from Ice sheathe.
Besides that, Dex/ Pre and Con/ Pre make the most powerful tanks. Dex/ Pre (Especially when geared for Ego instead of End or Int) simply because Critical hits hold aggro better than normal hits, though Dex/Pre (as well Dex/Con) is a little more advanced of a technique than Con/Pre as far as Power, Talent and Gear balancing Goes.
Con is always easier to work with, considering outside of Defiance, there aren't many powers that synergize with con, thus allowing your character to have have a greater level of customization. Dex, on the other hand is viable though because it's situational, taking into account the number of powers that syngergize with it.
He's level 28 right now, has Challenge on Sword Cyclone and Storm's Harvest as recommended.
However, I can't sustain Sword Cyclone for longer than 1 and a half-ish seconds, so I'm having trouble using it for snap AOE aggro. Was thinking of getting Shockwave, and retconning SC out at level 40. Shockwave is ranged and doesn't cost so much energy.
Storm's Harvest doesn't seem to be doing much threat
Going to pick up the Threat circle at 29, I'll see if that helps.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Well my first peice of advice would be don't level a tank. It's slow and painful, and the gear to properly tank just isn't there. And when you are grouping, don't let anyone run in Protector Role except you.
As for Sword Cyclone, Challenging Strikes is not for Snap Aggro, it's for sustained threat generation. Crippling Challenge is for Snap Aggro. I'd definately reccomend a lower energy costing power at least for leveling. Sword Cyclone requires alot of Int or End, and an Energy Unlock, or Force Shield with Force Sheathe. I'd recommend Ego sprites over Sword Cyclone at lower levels any day. It's a good set-it-and-forget-it as well as Spammable Challenging Strike Power.
You own idea of Shockwave would work well too, just so long as you use it to pull enemies. That would cause them to have to take Threat per Tick as they close in on you, and then the threat over time mechanic once they are in melee range of you. Infact, I'd take both Shockwave and Ego Sprites. then you have one CS for pulling and one for close.
as for Crippling Challenge, it has no Threat over time mechanic. You don't set it and forget it, you spam it, and keep Challenging Strikes running along side of it. It's about paying attention to the debuffs on the enemy at that point. As mensioned earlier in this thread, the "Taunt" mechanic on Crippling CHallenge only lasts for 4 seconds, then is on cooldown for 6 so of course the mob will only focus on you or a few seconds before going back to beating on the DPS if you aren't spamming it. levelling, Devour Essense is your best freind as a Crippling Challenge because it helps keep you healed, if you aren't going for concept.
If i had to guess, it sounds like you are trying to play like a DPS-Tank, and only use your threat powers only on a maintenance basis. As a tank, you have to generate threat actively, offensively, from the start of every battle, not just when someone pulls aggro. You're not there to do damage (thats what DPSers are for) it's yoru job to keep threat off of them, and it's much easier to do that proactively than reactively. You have to have a plan in your head for how you as the tank are going to deal with every pull. And as the situation changes, you may need to change your plan as well. But it's about generating threat from the start.
About CC and CS: Crippling Challenge is the taunt, so use it every 4ish seconds, then the Challenging Strikes skill in between?
And, I just level as a tank so I can get a feel for how to do things at level cap. I don't want to get to 40 with little experience in tanking.
CC has a 10 second cooldown. Make sure you're spamming it every 4 secs on different baddies.
EDIT: it's 10 not 20...
Incorrect. The question you are asking is actually in the guide, here:
Means that Roxstar is only somewhat correct here:
Trying to hold aggro on multiple baddies with CC is impossible. By the time you've applied it to 3 targets, DPSers will usually have killed almost everything, and you'll only have gotten control of three targets. The way to hold aggro on multiple targets is to spam CS as much and as fast as possible. Eye of the Storm is actually a very poor tanking power. I'm sure you've noticed that every time you start using it, you lose aggro. This is because its overall damage is very low, and it cannot take on the Challenging Strikes advantage, meaning that it does not put out very much threat. Eye of the Storm is a better choice for a solo toon, where no one else is at risk of being attacked.
For holding aggro against a single target, you want to tap your CS power for the threat over time effect, and spam the crap out of your CC power in between blocks. CC's +threat is double what CS gives, and dont' forget that CS continues to tick every second for 10 seconds after you've stopped using it. Every time you use another CS power, you only serve to refresh that threat over time counter, you do not create a new stack of it. So overall, the highest possible threat you can put out is to tap your CS power to gain the threat over time mechanic, and to spam CC while CS's threat over time is in effect.
If you're feeling energy-starved, Force Shield with the Force Sheath advantage is a great way to make sure that you're gaining a constant stream of energy, but Flashfire + Thermal Reverb or Ego Storm@Malevolent Manifestation + Telepathic Reverb will help to passively generate energy for you regardless of if you're being attacked or not. I don't know what passive you have, but Defiance or Lightning Reflexes + Form of the Master@Storm's Eye Prana both help alot when it comes to generating energy by being attacked.
Again though, Tanking builds are very tight, and until you reach level 40 and can branch your gear properly, and have all the proper tricks up your sleeve, you will want to rip your hair out in frustration. Pre-level 33-36ish, you just don't have enough power and advantage points to be able to effectively hold aggro and to effectively solo without it being painfully slow. Trust me, once you have everything you need, it gets ALOT easier.
First, that was supposed to be 10 seconds...stupid memory.
Second, remind me again about the taunt. I can taunt 2 different baddies within that 10 seconds correct?
If so, what I've always done is mass spam everything. I'm an alt-tab tank. I spam my taunt alongside my CS powers. If there's a particularly strong baddie, such as a boss or cosmic however, I will throw everything at him while maintaining my AoE CS attacks in between.