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How to maintain Taunt while energy building?
tilarta
Posts: 291 Arc User
I've had a consistent problem with my functional tank that while energy building, they cannot hold Taunting.
But without energy, I can't fire off the attacks that actually hold aggro on me.
Which is problematic in teamplay, because high threat characters can take the target out of attack rank while I'm charging up to Taunt again.
And then I have to waste time chasing after the enemy because the high threat character won't stay still.
I checked all the energy builders and not one comes with the ability to Taunt.
So what I am not getting here?
And no, I'm not going to discuss the powers I'm using, because when I did that in the past, people just get bogged down in meaningless debates about using this and that and how this is much better then what you are using.
It goes on and on like that.
And the problem never actually gets solved, because we're derailed into a conversation of how Bountiful Chi Resurgence is better then Bionic Shielding.
Or something like that.
But without energy, I can't fire off the attacks that actually hold aggro on me.
Which is problematic in teamplay, because high threat characters can take the target out of attack rank while I'm charging up to Taunt again.
And then I have to waste time chasing after the enemy because the high threat character won't stay still.
I checked all the energy builders and not one comes with the ability to Taunt.
So what I am not getting here?
And no, I'm not going to discuss the powers I'm using, because when I did that in the past, people just get bogged down in meaningless debates about using this and that and how this is much better then what you are using.
It goes on and on like that.
And the problem never actually gets solved, because we're derailed into a conversation of how Bountiful Chi Resurgence is better then Bionic Shielding.
Or something like that.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Post edited by tilarta on
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And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
If you have primary SS Con, and don't have the Fuel My Fire spec, consider taking it.
Stacking some Rec if you haven't done it yet might help.
For other Passives, select an Energy Unlock and Form that work with your powers, and the appropriate Superstats, and never touch your Energy Builder again.
Con/Dex/Rec plus Defiance plus Devour Essence w/ Crippling Challenge in Hybrid with Bulwark from the Protector tree and you will never lose aggro, and will rarely, if ever, be in any danger. Add IDF if you want extra tankiness, or Form of the Tempest if 80-90 Energy once per 4 seconds from Defiance isn't good enough for you. Throw in Overdrive if you're using additional Maintains; it scales decently off Rec. Use Deflection for extra dodge, and Fuel my Fire if you want to go ridiculously overboard on the Energy Building.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
By the way, that Passive is the only reason I don't die, so you can see why it's not possible to give it up.
I don't have an Energy Unlock, since there isn't one that will work with my framework.
The powers my functional Tank uses are relatively new to Champions Online and apparently, a Energy Unlock was not provided as part of the package.
For the record, I don't use Sorcery Powers, so it would be best not to recommend anything along those lines.
And in case you are wondering about the use of the term functional tank, I made a tank a long time before this one, following all the standard advice.
All I achieved was to make a boring toon who couldn't do anything!
I made a note of everything that went wrong and when it came time to make a tank again, I made a build that fixed all the problems I encountered the first time around.
So, that's why I'm not going down that road again.
But other flaws were introduced, some of which I was never able to solve.
Energy Unlock and Taunting while Energy Building are at the top of that list.
Right after that is the lack of a proper block, but that's more to do with Cryptic then me.
I want to use Metal Shield Block, but that was never delivered.
Any information I gather won't be usuable until the level cap goes up though, when I get (hopefully!) more points to buy powers.
And considering that I don't know when that is, it may be a long time away.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Secondary 1: Strength (for melee damage)
Secondary 2: Presence (for healing).
I'm not disclosing the Passive, since it'll start off the "you're using the wrong one" derailment again.
All you need to know it is works for me.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
Aside from that, if you don't plan on changing your powers, advantages, specs, or superstats, and you don't really want to take advice from people, I'm not really sure what it was you wanted us to do.
There's no such thing as a wrong passive, simply some more effective then others at things.
Hell, some of my tanks utilize Quarry, an offensive passive.:rolleyes:
So really, not posting your build gives us fudge all to work with in assisting you and merely leaves us with reading your whining about being unable to do things, which, we can't fix because you won't help us fix them with you.
Deliciously nutritious!
The last time I posted my build, they told me to get rid of half of it in favor of skills that I had previously tried on the tank who failed.
And then it went off into the tangent of "this is better, no, this is better" debate.
As for what I am asking, the topic is simple:
How do you generate threat while energy building?
You don't need to know my skills to give general advice on that issue, since I'm looking for something that works universally.
And yes, I'm aware the energy unlock is a problem, but there is nothing that really works for it, so that's not going to be solved by any player, unfortunately.
The one suggestion I was given last time I asked wasn't appropriate.
The suggestion was to use an Energy Unlock that was based on power cooldowns.
Since none of my combat powers have cooldowns, well, you can see why that was a bad idea!
I looked at all the others and they all have conditions which won't be met.
And naturally, if the conditions won't be met, no energy will be returned.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
I'm assuming you mean "Energy building" as in, "using your EB"?
In that case, this thread only needed one answer: You can't.
would probably give a lot more credence to using a role with the sole purpose of distracting enemies. Or maybe the role itself requires a bigass buff.
Actually, yeah, I think I'll make a thread on that right now.
A useless ****ing thread.
But as for actual builds, yeah. Holding threat right now is a matter of keeping up damage output, above everything else. As a result, using energy builders for extended periods of time causes your damage output to drop sharply, and your usefulness to dwindle - which means Tank role is horrible.
If you're an AT, stack up energy efficiency on your utility gear. Seriously. High-end utility gear with high scores in that aspect can completely alleviate the need to stat for management skills like End or Rec.
I use damage over time effects to keep up aggro in the event I have to move away from the boss either due to knockback or some mechanic that disables me from using my main skills to keep up threat (or in your case, using your energy builder). I currently use Flashfire and Bleeds as my main dots. There are however, plenty of other choices, and perhaps something you can fit into your build. Challenging strikes on any power you rotate will also provide a small amount of threat over time.
Recently added powers, no Sorcery, and a desire for a metal shield block? I'm going to guess you're running a Laser Sword theme since Telepathy has an Energy Unlock and can thematically mesh with Sorcery. Strength as a secondary for melee damage and a general lack of cooldown powers to work with Molecular Self Assembly would also be in line with that guess.
The level cap isn't likely to be raised even though the devs had originally planned for 50. If I recall correctly, the level cap is staying at 40 because of the game's fragile state of balance.
Since you have Constitution as your primary, I'm going to guess you've taken Fuel My Fire all the way. If you don't want Defiance, that's fine; all the defensive passives, with the possible exception of Personal Force Field, function very well (I'm going out on a limb here and assuming you're not running PFF or Hybrid role and Bulwark since you've been so... defensive about your passive). The previously suggested Force Shield advantage should fit thematically even if it's not a metal shield. Other than that, there's the iffy Accelerated Metabolism advantage. Lastly, Electric Sheath may or may not fit your theme. It's an Active Offense that gives you energy when you're attacked as well as bolstered energy recovery.
2. Take Challenging Strikes
3. Use those abilities to maintain both debuffs on target
4. Profit.
If you can't hold agro with that, then most likely you just happen to be teaming with someone doing some insane dps, a better tank, or some nub running in Hybrid role as a dps (Hybrid role does NOT have threat reduction like the dps roles do...)
On a side note, the Protector tree is pretty silly. I have 1 tank that uses it for max hp...even though he would be much better off using something else.
Focus on just enough survivability to do what you want, then dump everything else into dps.
Devour Essence is by far the best ability at holding agro because it has the trifecta: heal, dps, and crippling challenge...all just piling on threat constantly.
Defensive Combo is probably second because it has extra threat built in.
The rest are going to be abilities with crippling challenge that already have high dps, like 2GM and Lightning Arc.
Your Challenging Strikes ability is best as an AoE because you want to grab everything, and usually just CS is enough to hold smaller adds.
For Instance, I just made a newb tank that uses:
Clobber, Cleave, Defiance, Lightning Arc, and Enrage in Tank role. Took Challenging Strikes on Cleave and Crippling Challenge on Larc and only VERY rarely did I ever lose agro in Alerts. I ran Alerts with him from 6-18 and I can tell you right now that the only people I lost agro to were Id Mastery Egobladers...and there were about 4 different ones of those that I could not get agro away from. To be honest, I still have no idea how it happened like that.
Remember: Half the people you know are below average...
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Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...
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@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
My main threat-building powers:
Defensive Combo with CC.
Inexorable Tides with CS.
Those two were all I need to keep threat up and aggro on me.
My role was obviously Tank and I was definitely using the Bulwark spec from Protector tree.
No, it's not a laser sword theme.
And no, force shield doesn't fit the theme either.
And I hope that part about level conjecture is just speculation on your part, otherwise I'm going to be very angry.
And most likely, I will not be the only one!
Star Trek Online for example, originally had a level cap of 50, it's been raised to 55 and will be raised again to 60 in the future.
Additionally, the Devs themselves said the cap is going up, so now they have to deliver on that promise.
I'm assuming both those cases can result in player wrath if the level cap raise is not delivered.
I did check on Fuel My Fire, it's only at level 1.
I don't recall the reason, but most likely, it's because I can only invest the minimum amount of points to reach the next level and then have to keep climbing up the tree.
I checked out Electric Sheath, it's got the condition that causes me to reject powers.
Which is overly long recharge time, it's 1:30.
I don't take any power which has a recharge time greater then 10 seconds.
Also, To work with this character's build, it needs to be innately passive, not triggered actively.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
There are TONS of ways to manage energy. The thing is, most of them require certain other things - Using an Energy Unlock that never triggers obviously doesn't help, nor will a Form that never stacks. Neither will help, even if triggered constantly, if you don't have the stats to back them up.
A good build is all about synergies between your various choices. If you don't tell us what you're working with, we CANNOT help you properly.
The last official word was "We're not increasing the level cap, but we might look into it later." And that was over a year ago.
Even if the plan was at one time to increase the level cap, plans can and do change; that may no longer be the plan.
Honestly, that isn't even worth it. It'll get you 2 Energy/sec, unless you're heavily invested in End. Even at 3 ranks, it's debatable how useful it will be without increased Max Energy - 6 Energy/sec isn't all that much either.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Player wrath.
Do we really need to go down the long list of stuff that has been promised but failed to achieve results?
Hrmm, there's two ways you could read this, but I'll cover both. If it's the three separate 'sections' of the tree (With the little Mastery at the top.) Unfortunately, yes, you're stuck with ten per. However, you can put as many points on the two different tiers within the sections of the tree.
Example :
Unyielding - 2
Fuel My Fire - 3
Tough - 3
Resilient - 2
I don't even have to go to the second tier of abilities, you can stick them all onto one tier.
However, as said, only ten points per tier. If that's what you meant, then ignore this. But your comment can be read two ways, so I'm covering both of them.
Everyone has a base Int of 10, which slightly reduces recharge times to...I think the norm is 1:27? More Int/Cooldown Reduction gear, smaller recharge. I can cycle my AD's on my regen tank every sixteen seconds or so. Fun times.
Although, again, we can't really help you here if you're literally shooting down every suggestion offered, saying that you want to have minimal input on the build when playing (Pressing one button to not die is not hard. Thus, the reason for AD's and AO's.) As well as the fact that...We still don't know the build nor the theme, so it's like playing jeopardy, but without the questions.
Unwinnable situations for 500, Alex?
Deliciously nutritious!
There is only one universal suggestion that can be made:
Get out of the tank role.
If you're already in Hybrid, great! If you're still in the tank role and wondering what the hell I'm talking about, I'll be glad to explain.
Threat is generated in three ways:
-Applying Taunts from the ranged portion of melee energy builders (weak), using a power with Challenging Strikes in it (average), or using a power with Crippling Challenge in it (strong).
-Doing damage.
-Healing.
Tanks get a bonus to threat generation, so they end up ahead on the first one, but they have a penalty to damage, and Hybrids have a bonus to healing, so Hybrids end up ahead on the other two. At this point, the two are fairly close, with the Tank usually a bit ahead.
Hybrids can take the Bulwark spec from the Protector tree to multiply all that threat, often getting ahead of the Tank on threat generation.
On top of that, Tanks have a penalty to Equilibrium and Energy Building, so even in cases where the Tank is generating more threat than the Hybrid, the Hybrid will be more Energy efficient, meaning that they'll resort to the Energy Builder less often and for shorter durations, allowing them to spend more time generating Threat.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Pretty much this. Additionally, there is a problem with your passive and how you are using it if you need Presence as a crutch to support your healing. Swap that for Intelligence and get MSA.
If you're still desperate for healing, pick up Protector and tank in Hybrid.
Your energy builder is something that needs to fire between rotations in order to keep your energy topped of (for when you need to burn). Just CC something and smack it with CS until CC is up again (assuming it's on a lunge, otherwise just maintain the CS debuff every few seconds and CC the **** out of it). Rinse, repeat.
Assuming you get the opening attack, you should be able to rotate slow enough that your Unlock + occasional builder hit will keep your energy topped off and the enemy solidly agro'd. Burn it on spamming CC if you lose agro to something for whatever reason, then return to your rotation.
Your unlock + builder will be quick to restore energy. Don't be afraid to tap block, as Tank role rewards that with high energy returns.
Apparently you didn't read the part about powers that do not have cooldowns!
Don't suggest MSA again.
The last time I asked the question, the only thing they could agree on was Constitution and Presence for Stats (if you're a tank).
That's why I stuck with those.
Strength is just my personal quirk, since I'm punching the bad guys at close range.
And I did try Intelligence on a few characters.
All that achieved was to create characters who die easy.
That's why I'm not doing it again.
And yes, I did mean the 10 point limit is what ends the tree speccing, it basically says, okay, you've spent 10 points, you're done, go up to the next level now.
Yes, I'm aware I'm being frustratingly cryptic as to what powers my build uses, but as I said, I don't want to hear comments along the lines of "you've got too many skills based around damage, drop half your skills for heals".
That's what they said last time.
And well, that led to a unplayable tank.
Basically, the skills I am using fall into one of two categories:
1. Single Target Damage.
This is where my CS and CC abilities are.
2. AOE damage.
This is for situations when you can't focus on the boss exclusively because he's calling up additionals, so you use the boss as the focus for the AOE and hit the additionals as a side effect.
The theme, well, I suppose it can't hurt to tell you that.
The character is basically made of superheated rock.
Imagine a person made of stone with lava for blood and you get the idea.
The concept of the theme is that they secrete lava from their hands and cool it down.
Which is how I was imagining they make their shield, shape it from lava and hold it up.
That's why they don't have a Block power, an energy shield doesn't fit that theme.
And there are only three Blocks that don't fit that requirement:
Retaliation
Guard
Stone Shroud
I rejected the first one because the animation is nothing special.
The second one caused problems via a combat bug, so I dismissed that.
And the 3rd one caused me to reach for an instant respec, because I didn't like that it kept changing my character into a crumbling dirt statue.
Which is why I'm holding out for the metal shield, with the right colors and material texture, I can make it look like it fits the concept.
And you can add that shield to the list of things Cryptic promised and didn't deliver.
What is the point of more content if all your mission reward xp is poured into what I call the level cap vaccum?
To explain that name, it's what happens you are at cap and you try to earn xp, you don't get the xp.
And then the mission is locked out because it's not repeatable (STO allows you to replay!
Which is why I've kept the missions in reserve, because I really don't need to discover the XP buffer I was keeping back is suddenly needed and I threw it into the level cap vaccum.
Like say, for instance, if the level cap rise does happen and I can earn XP again?
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
CS works better when you use an AoE power that has it.
With the new, higher level missions that come with the level cap increase.
Or with repeatables, Adventure Packs, Lairs, Alerts, or teaming with other people and sharing their missions.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
If you really have to scratch an itch for this character, you might have to find another medium in which to do it. You might consider writing a story or a comic.
I know it's frustrating. I've got several characters trapped in the Power House because I can't get them to "feel right".
Now this might not be the most "ideal" setup but it might get you enough energy to improve the playability of your build. For best results I suggest copying to PTS and trying this out before committing to it completly.
1. Thermal Reverb: If you talent in some End then you should see some results.
2. Flashfire: Simple Click N Forget where the CD is fairly small and you honestly don't care much if it were longer because it's gaining you energy via Thermal Reverb. It's also steady tick damage which should help somewhat with aggro generation. Adding Adv Points to this is entirely optional but I'd suggest just trying it out at R1 to start.
3. Fire Shield: It has the look and it can apply Clinging Flames(See Thermal Reverb). It also does a small amount of damage which can help with aggro generation. IMO, you can completely get away with not running a block enhancer if you so choose but if you feel you don't have the survivability then it's worth considering.
Also worth Mentioning:
Ok, I know you said not to go here again but...it's my post and it's worth considering. :biggrin:
Molecular Self-Assembly + Conviction + Bountiful Chi Resurgence(with Resurgent Reiki) : Conviction and BCR are on very short CD timers and are enough, on their own, to power MSA. You could talent in some INT and probably get decent results. I do not know your self-healing setup but this is a decent one if you have some Dodge/Avoidance from something like a Silver Champions Recognition Primary Defense Item slotted with a Gambler's Gem.
Ok, as for the Level Cap Increase. I am, personally, against this because it further trivializes existing content and constantly demands the addition of large amounts of content that, unless Cryptic North turns out to be the second coming of CO, simply isn't going to happen. Instead, I am in favor of(as are some devs) with setting up an Alternate Advancement System which would allow you to earn points which could be applied towards further toon customization while keeping the toon at LvL 40 and therefore causing less overall headaches to both the system and the players. Once you start down the path of level cap increases then it becomes a constant gear treadmill and people will quickly hit the new cap and then begin complaining about when the next one is coming...and the next one...and the next one. Considering CO's super alt-friendly design I believe an AA System where you're not penalized by being a 40 on a ton of toons while, at the same time, you can choose to further develop the toons you like the most as an option is a more ideal situation.
jellycupsowbug: Not an attack or an insult but....I dissagree with the majority of your post. I play what I consider "effective concept" and I make the story and costume 1st(usually 3-4 costumes). While you do have to work with the synergies given in the game I do find such things, more often than not, to be very flexible. That being said, I do agree that you have to take into consideration, although very little, what is actually offered in the powersets. While you can use things like "BS-Fu" to make things like plant toons and such it does require a touch of "make believe" here and there sometimes.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Post your build. I know you had a bad experience the last time you did so; that doesn't mean history will repeat itself. Theme and superstats are a good start, but we need to see under the hood to give you anything more than blind guesses. Tell us which powers are set in stone (so to speak), and which are variable. Some people might go off on a tangent, which you are free to ignore. More importantly, others will now have enough information to give you a useful response.
As an example, a Heavy Weapons build with superstatted Presence and a reliable Disorient can use Ego Sprites (orange-tinted "embers" for a lava character) to trigger Telepathic Reverberation... but I have no way of knowing whether you're using a Heavy Weapons build, so I may have just wasted my time and yours.
If you do post your build, the best case scenario is that someone gives you perfect advice that fits your theme and playstyle. The worst case scenario is that no one's advice aligns with what you want... which, after three pages of Guess-My-Character, is exactly what you've gotten from this thread.
Not to be an *******, but it sounds like your current tank is unplayable and you are using advice that was maybe viable a long time ago.
Either take the advice given or stop asking, I guess. You're already taking criticism of your build because it isn't viable in some of the worst ways.
No cooldown powers means you have no lunge and no conviction. Taboo, but workable with proper setups - though you don't seem to have a proper setup. So take a lunge or conviction with MSA and ffs get a block. Coloring Force Shield red/orange sounds like it would fit your fire-ish theme.
Alternatively, if you use alot of maintains, go with Overdrive.
Either way, Intelligence and an unlock will solve your power issues and you won't miss the Presence. Your SS distribution is just bad, Presence no longer aids in threat gen and it's bonus healing isn't -that- good for the heals you should be using (i.e. ones that don't require you to stop attacking).
But if we go off into the area of "you did this wrong, do it this way" again, I'll drop this thread faster then a superheated rock and NEVER ASK FOR ADVICE AGAIN.
But first, some guidelines:
Certain abilities are set in stone, because they were designed to fix the problems I encountered the first time around.
Where were:
Not enough passive self-heals.
Not enough AOE.
Be aware this is probably going to be a very long post, since I have to explain my rationale for each choice to avoid controversy.
As a general rule, this character was created to use Earth powers, since at the time of creation, they were new to the game.
Energy Builder: Kinetic Darts.
There were two reasons to choose this, the first is to be able to energy build at range, should it become impractical to stand near the enemy.
The second is was the only one that fits the theme, since Cryptic didn't provide lava spikes as an energy builder, so this was the closest I could come visually.
Secondary Power:
Stone Shot.
I needed a power I could throw greater distances and inflict damage.
Fire Strike:
A different kind of ranged power (see above).
Beatdown: 1 of 2 Taunt Powers.
For close in fighting.
Onslaught: 2 of 2 Taunt Powers.
Same reason as above.
Fault Line:
Ranged AOE Attack.
Quicksand:
This is the skill I need/use most, it's my close range AOE killer.
Cave In:
A ranged AOE stun attack.
Telekinetic Maelstrom:
Close AOE stun attack, can immobilize 5 or more enemies temporarily.
Land Slide:
A lunge, for closing distance.
Conviction:
Emergency Healing Power.
Haymaker:
Single target interrupt.
And yes, I know 3 of those have cooldowns, which could potentially be used for MSA.
But since I only use them sporadically, it's never going to provide practical benefits.
That's why I lied about them, to avoid a repeat of that incident.
I'm looking at all the energy unlocks right now, I can't find one that actually works with Earth or Might.
For it to be practical, it would have to work off Beatdown or Onslaught, since these are the ones I use most in single target combat.
Also, the other problem I encountered on my first tank was overuse of non-combat powers.
I basically just cycled 3 combat powers over and over, it got pretty boring.
That's why I chose to create a build that was more flexible this time, so they could adapt and change if necessary for different situations.
And for the record, I have no problem healing at all.
With my Regeneration Passive and Conviction as an emergency heal, that's enough to keep me going in regular gameplay.
I've even fought Bloodwolf hand to hand, which is something none of my other toons have ever been capable of.
I've never tried to fight a cosmic boss yet, but since I don't fight them, I doubt I need to worry about that.
Did slug it out with NemCon Shadow Destroyer once though, held my own pretty well.
Would have brought him down too if he didn't keep healing.
My specialization tree is geared around boosting health and regeneration, to assist with the healing aspect.
This character has the highest health rating and best self healing ability of all my toons.
And for the record, I like my Presence passive, so telling me to drop it in favor of Intelligence (which has proved unreliable) isn't going to be received well.
Endurance I have used only on DPS based toons, I don't trust it for tanks.
Also, like Intelligence, I have found it weakens the toon (in terms of ability to endure damage).
And considering I have to take much damage at close range, anything that results in becoming weaker will compromise my build.
And yes, I'm aware I'm being stubborn on the Block issue, but I've had my fill of energy shields and am just tired of them.
I've used every variation by now and I want something more tangible.
By that, I mean solid, not another energy barrier.
Also, I expected Cryptic would have the metal shield block out pretty fast, since (at the time) they kept talking about it a lot, so I could afford to wait.
I guess that was expecting too much, apparently.
And about the level cap rise, I want it for one reason only: more skills!.
With my best characters (including this one), I always get to the point of, there's more skills I want, but no
more points, so the build remains incomplete.
Also, it's the only practical way to add more powers without compromising the build.
These are the ones I wanted to add when I hit the cap wall:
Shockwave
Havoc Stomp
And maybe Hurl as well.
Just because they would fit the theme of a superstrong melee/earth fighter.
Okay, if you've gotten this far, have a lava rock cake!
Fresh out of the oven!
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name:
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
Level 15: Presence (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1:
Level 6:
Level 9:
Level 12:
Level 15:
Level 18:
Level 21:
Powers:
Level 1: Kinetic Darts
Level 1: Stone Shot
Level 6: Fire Strike
Level 8: Beatdown
Level 11: Onslaught
Level 14: Regeneration
Level 17: Quicksand
Level 20: Fault Line
Level 23: Cave In
Level 26: Telekinetic Maelstrom
Level 29: Land Slide
Level 32: Conviction
Level 35: Haymaker
Level 38:
Travel Powers:
Level 6:
Level 35:
Specializations:
The rest of this post is going to be pretty much a random braindump; I'll be posting what I think as I think of it, in no particular order.
Now, you're probably right about the passive. Some people WILL slam you for it. But you know what? Screw those guys. Any defensive passive can tank just about anything in the game. Regen probably isn't the best, but it's more than good enough, especially if you're supplementing it with extra Defense and Dodge.
Speaking of which, how deadset are you on keeping Con as the primary Superstat? I ask because Deflection gives Dodge based off your Dex, which you have next to none of, but Str (if you swapped the two) has Juggernaut, which would give Defense scaling off your Con. It's just a small thing to consider.
Might doesn't have a conventional Energy Unlock. It has its EU built into its Passives; knock for Unstoppable, or taking damage for Defiance. Since you aren't using a might passive, that isn't an option for you.
I think Earth has the same passives (After checking: Yes, it does), so no help there either.
If you moved Fire Strike to later in the build so that you could replace it with Flashfire (which procs guaranteed Clinging Flames), you could use that to trigger Thermal Reverberation. You'd have to change a superstat to make that work though; you don't have the right ones to fuel TR.
The only Forms you could use for Energy return (without changing your superstats to support the change) are Enrage (Str) or Compassion (Pre). If you were willing to drop a non-knocking attack for a knocking one, you could use Enrage to generate Energy.
Fissure would work too, but with its recharge, it won't be up often enough to make a huge difference.
Quicksand is an incredible power - ignore anyone who tells you to drop it - but its description lies: It isn't a knockto, it's a reverse repel, and doesn't trigger Enrage... But it might trigger Wind Reverberation. I'm testing that now, but you'd have to change one of your Superstats to End or Rec for that to really benefit you.
Yes, Quicksand triggers Wind Reverberation. And since it always repels, you can use it as a tap to get a burst of energy. I have 90 End on my test character, and get 27 End back, for reference.
As far as the Presence Superstat goes, what role are you running in? Switching to Hybrid will get you more +Heal off your Superstats than a Tank will get off Presence. And you really won't lose that much of anything else for switching to Hybrid.
Don't worry about the Block. I personally only take them for flavor, or if I have room. I have tanks that survive just fine with nothing but the base block.
I could probably come up with more ideas and suggestions, but my dinner's ready. Good luck with your build, and I'll possibly post more later.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Its been long enough since I had to worry about energy management on a character that I am not sure of the current interaction between MSA and TPs but in the past tapping your TP triggered MSA. If such is still the case then pretty much every character has a power that can trigger MSA.
That said,
There is not much, if anything, that you can do that will allow your energy builder, if you are having to use it often, to produce more threat than a DPS character's entire build.
This is worth reemphasizing. It is very unlikely that you will be able, while using an EB for any significant amount of time, to generate more threat than a character using their entire build to generate DPS for that same period of time. Kaizerin made some excellent suggestions for how to keep your damage going while you use your EB.
Some advice for remaining within your various self imposed restrictions might be:
Rank up your EB so that fewer ticks are sufficient to top off your energy. This will get you back to using actual threat generating attacks sooner.
Gear for REC. It doesn't take a lot to make a difference. Again this will allow you to use your EB less and get back to threat generating attacks sooner.
Use an attack with CC just before switching to your EB. If your EB produces sufficient energy (per the previous two suggestions) you may very well be able to switch back to threat generating attacks before the CC forced attack only you effect wears off (I doubt it, but maybe ?)
A piece of Energy on Kill gear. I'm not sure if its still available on the AH, but a single piece of secondary EOK gear can reduce your dependence on your EB by quite a bit. You won't get as much use out of it as would a dedicated DPSer, but it will help.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I know you like to have a lot of attacks and that's fine; having only 2 or 3 attacks can get boring fast. I just can't figure out your general playstyle from it. Do you prefer to close the distance yourself or let enemies come to you?
Things to consider:
Fissure
It's a ranged AoE attack and does periodic knocks to provide some control (not exactly stun, but close enough). The advantage can provide passive healing. You can open with this attack and then lunge into the healing. The Earth block bonus is no big deal since you need to be actively using it to get the bonus.
Defensive Combo
The animation is similar to Beatdown, but Defensive Combo has extra threat and its third strike is a small AoE.
Resurgence
An emergency heal. As an Active Defense, it has no energy cost. The heal scales off Constitution (your primary superstat) and increases the healing power of Regeneration.
Ego Sprites
If you can reflavor Kinetic Darts into lava spikes, reflavoring Ego Sprites into magma balls shouldn't be too hard. It's one of the best powers for Challenging Strikes because of the DoT. Use it and even if you have to use your Energy Builder, the DoT ticks will refresh CS and keep enemy focus on you. The healing advantage is only of use on tougher enemies because of the way it's delayed.
I'm not really sure what to say. You're asking for advice on your build, but don't want to change the things wrong with your build. You also seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of core concepts of the game.
Get ready for some tough love.
Saying that Int hasn't worked in your experience doesn't say much, because from what is shown, you don't seem to have a firm grasp on this to begin with. Your Presence is doing precious little for you. Period. You can throw all of your stubborn cognitive dissonance at it, but it won't change the fact that scaling int over presence will not only solve the general energy problem, but will allow you to fire conviction more often to boot.
Regeneration isn't the best passive to tank with, but it works for most content in the game. Just don't expect to Main Tank the hard stuff (like Gravi or Therakiel or certain Alert bosses). You'll do fine with most content, though.
Being stubborn on a block? You're going to lose alot of sympathy. There are no kind ways to say that it's just stupid to want to tank without having some kind of block power. Again, most content in the game will manage fine, but don't expect to handle much at endgame.
If you don't want to go with Int and MSA/Overdrive, then take Flammingbunnyman's advice and swap out that worthless Presence for a stat that support the Fire energy unlock, and go with that.
In general, Tanks need a minimum of 2 attack powers (Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes). Many trend to run with about twice that in order to flesh out a theme or a framework synergy. The rest should go into healing/support, doubly so for having no block and weak mitigation.
I'd suggest stacking dodge/avoidance, gear-wise. You are not going to manage enough defense to take a real bite out of incoming damage with your setup, so get Avoidance gear with a Dodge Core.
This won't make a good tank by any stretch, but it makes one that will work. Mostly.
Just fyi, Presence +healing does not affect Regeneration at all. Only superstat totals affect the healing off Regen.
So dropping Presence for any other superstat will not affect your passive at all. You can actually test this for yourself (I just did). Take all your gear off, and reset all your specs to 0. Take Infernal Bolts with Regen and stop. Take primary PRE and nothing else. Look at the numbers on Regen. Drop PRE for a different primary. Numbers will be the same.
Remember: Half the people you know are below average...
Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.
Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...
Handle @brayv
This is true. Additionally, presence has no bearing on your Threat anymore. All it is helping is to squeeze maybe an extra 100 or so, if that, HP from Conviction. Bittersweet if you don't have the energy to even fire it often.
Additionally, Conviction is a cooldown. It will proc MSA.
HotRock
For this character, the build is designed to be flexible.
Fight them up close or at range, that's the specification here.
If I run into trouble at close range, I jump back and slam them with my ranged attacks.
That was the problem with my first tank, they had no choice but to stay close to the enemy who was killing them, since they couldn't hit them at anything outside of melee range.
I'm not interested in giving up Constitution, I need my health to be as high as possible.
I tried Fissure, but there was something about it I didn't like (can't remember what), so
dropped it.
I didn't see the point of Defensive Combo, since I already have Beatdown.
Also, I dismissed that one because my first tank tried it and had poor results.
Cooldown on Resurgence is too long, 10 seconds is the maximum I will allow for cooldowns.
I could fire off 9 Convictions in that time!
<raises eyebrow> Ego Sprites are magma balls?
They look like butterflies to me.
I dismissed FlashFire because I didn't really like it, the animation puts me off.
Besides, FireStrike triggers Clinging Flames just fine.
The catch is, I rarely use it, mostly it's just a fun thematic power.
Tried Dodge/Avoidance once and once only.
It was a horrible failure.
Also, that's why I avoid Parry as a block, as it was part of that test.
I've had mixed results with Overdrive, so am ambivalent towards that power.
In any case, I tend to use it only for Power Armor, since it keys in well with their maintain attacks.
And I'm not aware of any energy problem.
I charge fast.
I don't know if it's accurate, but for energy, I tend to favor Recovery, not Intelligence.
Heck, if I had one more SS, I'd have added that as well!
And don't bring up Sorcery powers, I don't use those.
By the way, Infernal Bolts is another power I react badly to the mention of, since everyone seems to endorse it.
Also, Infernal Powers are really hard to recolor, as they're mostly black or green.
According to the most current notes I have, MSA does not proc off travel powers anymore.
I guess Cryptic worked out that trick and nerfed it. :rolleyes:
Also, if you notice, I don't actually have any travel powers.
I spent two hours in the Powerhouse trying everything that seemed thematically suitable and all I achieved was to get majorly annoyed.
My first attempt was with earth tunneling, but there's something really really wrong with the animation.
I tested it in every environment I could, but the animation is flawed.
The animation is cracking concrete, as if you're travelling beneath a paved surface.
But when you move into areas that have soft dirt/sand or grass, you're still cracking concrete.
I rejected Earth flight for a similar reason, since it's always a lump of concrete with metal rebars in it.
Also, as part of the theme, I've avoided flight powers, since I imagine my character is too physically heavy to fly.
They could launch themselves into the air on a geyser of lava or leap great distances due to their superstrength, but they're incapable of true flight.
Which brings up the topic of the Superjump travel power, it's too uncontrolled for my taste.
The arms and legs are flailing everywhere instead of a proper leap animation.
And there aren't actually lava travel powers, I'm out of luck.
Lava Slide and Lava Geyser would be nice ones to use if they actually existed.
Of course, none of this matters if they don't raise the level cap, since I won't be able to obtain a new power without giving up an existing one.
But I believe in planning ahead, so it may be useful one day if the cap goes up.
Bees like honey, they don't like vinegar.
Everytime someone makes a character that is an copy of an existing superhuman, Creativity is sad
And...? How is that a threat? Seriously, what would anyone here stand to lose if you never posted again? "Gesture of goodwill?" You think you're doing people a favor by asking for their help?
Your tone has been threatening and entitled throughout this entire thread, despite the fact that YOU'RE the one asking THEM to go out of their way to help YOU. And then you throw that help back in their faces when they don't tell you exactly what you want to hear. It's infuriating to even read about from the outside; I can only imagine how the people who accepted the thankless job of trying to help you feel. It's a testament to the quality of the community here that they indulged you for this long.
There's a difference between "advice" and "validation." If you can't take constructive criticism, then you shouldn't request it. You're the one who admitted that your way isn't working. If you're not open to trying something else, then you're just trolling for attention and wasting everyone's time.
As I understand, these are your goals for improvement:
- generate higher threat
- improve energy management
- endure more damage
Adjusting your posted power choices as little as possible, I would recommend these alterations:
1. Make STR the primary superstat, and CON the secondary. Numerically, you can still give CON the highest value with mods. Primary STR is chosen specifically for its spec tree.
Strength: Swole (2/3) A little extra health.
Strength: Physical Peak (3/3) An important melee power cost reduction. Greatly helps your energy management during prolonged melee fights.
Strength: Brutality (2/2) Increased critical severity helps you deal more damage, thus generating more threat. Conviction can also critically hit.
Strength: Juggernaut (3/3) Grants an enormous amount of Defense with a respectable CON stat. This will mitigate a large percentage of incoming damage, giving your Regeneration time to heal you.
2. Change the PRE superstat to DEX. As Ajanus and Secondalk mentioned, PRE is only giving you a healing bonus; and that healing bonus is only boosting Conviction. Since Conviction can critically hit, DEX is another way to increase its return. Plus you'll crit more often with your attacks, thus building more threat.
3. I would recommend filling the open power slot with an energy-returning toggle form. With DEX as a superstat, you could take Form of the Tempest, which can be triggered by all of your attack powers.
4. Replace Haymaker with Dragon Uppercut. Both perform the same function you described (single-target interrupt via knock), and Dragon Uppercut's animation looks appropriate for a superstrong character. A charged Dragon Uppercut will take advantage of Form of the Tempest's Focus stacks, giving you additional melee cost reduction and a steady stream of energy that scales with your DEX.
5. Use advantage points to bring Beatdown to Rank 2. Assuming this is your staple single-target attack, you'll want it dealing as much damage as possible to increase threat.
To complement the STR tree, I would choose spec trees that maximize your critical severity and damage resistance:
Warden: Fortified Gear (3/3)
Warden: Ruthless (2/2)
Warden: Upper Hand (2/3)
Warden: The Best Defense (3/3) This and Aggressive Stance create an Offense/Defense loop that is further boosted by the Defense from Juggernaut. The end result is a lot of damage resistance.
Vindicator: Aggressive Stance (2/2)
Vindicator: Merciless (3/3)
Vindicator: Focused Strikes (3/3)
Vindicator: Mass Destruction (2/3)
Mastery: Warden Mastery (1/1) Beatdown looks like your main single-target attack, so you shouldn't have trouble maintaining 3 stacks of Grit throughout a boss fight.
Gear-wise, I would mod for Critical Strike (Offense), Dodge/Avoid (Defense), and Cost Reduction (Utility). The Dodge/Avoid is meant to supplement an already high damage resistance. If you're using Heroic or Legion gear with Rank 5+ mods, it's noticeable mitigation.
If you're willing to entertain INT as a superstat (it won't make you weaker if you build with it in mind) and drop some of your attack powers (not many), the forum could probably come up with something more energy-efficient. But if you're looking to boost your performance with as few changes as possible, the above recommendations are reasonable.
So much wut I can't even...
Deliciously nutritious!
I mentioned them in "how to test your Regen" part of my previous post. Probably where that came from.
Remember: Half the people you know are below average...
Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.
Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...
Handle @brayv
Overall, this is pretty good. Just a few suggestions of my own:
Might want to avoid the fortified gear. No point in stacking defense, you won't have enough damage resistance to make a difference. Likewise, offense from Heroic gear alone will put you near the +20% range without need of gear boosting. Put those spec points to work elsewhere.
I had a little chuckle at the dodge/avoid comment. My dodge tank can MT Gravitar and hold her attention for a good while, solo, when the team goes down. This build, at it's best, wouldn't survive a number of her attacks even while blocking.
I would also double-check on the Rush buff. It's energy return scales from dex (about 10/second for duration at 200 dex), but it's cost reduction only applies to Martial Arts attacks I believe.
...It's an energy builder! Where the fark did he pull 'everyone seems to endorse it' out of? Seriously. Energy builders are primarily only chosen to progress quickly in a certain power tree. That's it. Or, to occasionally proc something the once or twice they are used.
I gotta be honest most of your responses keep mentioning you having bad times with many powers which work perfectly fine for 90% of people. Ever stop and wonder that, maybe, the reason they don't work is that you're using them incorrectly?
Deliciously nutritious!
ignore I see fire sheild was already covered
I think you'll have to compromise a bit, at least until Cryptic Somewhere decides to add content to better fit your theme. Difficulty on picking thematically appropriate travel powers should be a sign of that. If it's any consolation, by the time such stuff arrives you'll probably have more than enough ways to get a RetCon.
PowerHouse (Link to this build)
Name:
Archetype: Freeform
Super Stats:
Level 6: Constitution (Primary)
Level 10: Strength (Secondary)
Level 15: Dexterity (Secondary)
Talents:
Level 1: The Master
Level 6: Acrobat
Level 9: Physical Conditioning
Level 12: Martial Focus
Level 15: Covert Ops Training
Level 18:
Level 21:
Powers:
Level 1: Kinetic Darts
Level 1: Stone Shot
Level 6: Land Slide (Crippling Challenge)
Level 8: Regeneration (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 11: Conviction (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 14: Onslaught (Challenging Strikes)
Level 17: Quicksand (Rank 2, Rank 3, Challenging Strikes)
Level 20: Defensive Combo (Rank 2, Rank 3)
Level 23: Haymaker (Rank 2, Nullifying Punch)
Level 26: Fissure (Reconstruct)
Level 29: Molecular Self-Assembly
Level 32: Form of the Master (Storm's Eye Prana)
Level 35: Bountiful Chi Resurgence (Resurgent Reiki)
Level 38: Resurgence
Travel Powers:
Level 6:
Level 35:
Specializations:
Constitution: Unyielding (2/2)
Constitution: Fuel My Fire (1/3)
Constitution: Resilient (2/2)
Constitution: Deflection (3/3)
Constitution: Adrenaline Rush (2/2)
Sentry: Precise (3/3)
Sentry: Sentry Aura (3/3)
Sentry: Fortify (2/2)
Sentry: Reinforce (2/2)
Sentinel: Eternal Spring (2/2)
Sentinel: Sentinel Aura (3/3)
Sentinel: Rejuvenated (3/3)
Sentinel: Genesis (2/2)
Mastery: Constitution Mastery (1/1)
I've tried to preserve most of your original powers. I went with DEX instead of PRE for a number of reasons.
1. Deflection from the Constitution tree means DEX gives Dodge Chance. Don't worry too much about Avoidance for damage migitation; you have the HP and we're really just abusing things that trigger off a dodge.
2. Dodge triggers Form of the Master for energy, which is based on DEX. The Focus buffs melee damage based off both STR and DEX. Both are your secondary superstats so the bonus should nice. Form of the Master is also from the Unarmed branch of Martial Arts, so no weapons to get in the way of theme.
3. Dodge will also trigger Form of the Master's advantage, Storm's Eye Prana. This lowers the cooldown on all your self healing abilities. Conviction, Bountiful Chi Resurgence, and Resurgence are the three big self-heals and all three are included. You get to use them more often in prolonged fights.
4. Cooldown reduction on heals from Storm's Eye Prana means we can get Molecular Self Assembly to proc more often. Helpful especially with the already low cooldown time of Conviction.
5. DEX gives crit chance and helps you to trigger Adrenaline Rush, Fortify, Reinforce, and Eternal Spring. A maintained AoE like Quicksand is awesome for the first two. Conviction works great for the last two.
Talent 5 and 6 are left for you. If you want to add REC or PRE or whatever, you can do it there. Just take two of those +5 to super stat and +5 to the stat you want.
Give Defensive Combo another try. I don't see how it's worse than Beatdown. Defensive Combo is the tank version of Beatdown, which is more for DPS; it has very slightly lower energy cost and damage, but outputs more threat. If you're still not satisfied, go back to Beatdown.
Try Fissure again. Maybe your tastes have changed and it's acceptable now. It's a ranged AoE with the Earth look, a passive healing advantage, and a cooldown. If you don't like it, swap it out for another power you like (Telekinetic Maelstrom).
Resurgence is more of an "OH CRAP" button rather than something to be spammed. But you can just think of it as a periodic free burst of HP, especially with Storm's Eye Prana reducing the cooldown.
Sentry tree was chosen over the Protector tree for the damage reduction. As mentioned before, you have the HP part covered. Damage mitigation is your next step. The less damage you take, the more buffer your HP regeneration has and the more each HP is worth.
If Bountiful Chi Resurgence is a deal breaker, you'll want to drop Rejuvenated for Moment of Need.
No block power because you don't like any of them.
MSA can work, but without good intel or recovery, it's going to net a small amount (maybe 9-10 per tick or something).
It helps, but you may want to consider dropping Str for Int, since a good half of your attack powers won't benefit from Str scaling anyways. Your end score is also too low for Fuel my Fire to net good returns either, which means that you are going to still have energy problems.
Simply put, you need to reduce the rate at which you burn energy or increase the rate at which you return it. Martial Arts Forms need some kind of Dragon ability to trigger the Rush buff, which will return good energy with your high Dex. Won't do any favors with your costs, as you don't use any MA abilities.
Just double-checked on the Test Server. The cost discount from Rush applies to all melee attacks. Double-checked this on the Test Server as well, using the spec tree setup I posted. With Heroic primaries, Armadillo secondaries and 300 CON (for Juggernaut), Fortified Gear added 8% resistance. Not terrible, but I do agree that the other Warden options are worth investigating. Slaughter would be an attractive option, if Beatdown is routinely spammed against bosses.
Thanks for weighing in, Secondalk. Always nice to have another set of eyes questioning the numbers.
Speaking of numbers, I wanted to put some math on the various survivabilty recommendations:
A Heroic Breastplate of Agility with a Gambler's Lucky Gem grants around 40% Dodge (depending on the rank of the gem) with 58.7% Avoidance. Though at the mercy of the random number generator, that gives a mathematical average (for theorycrafting purposes) of 23.48% damage reduction.
My aforementioned test had 56% damage resist from Defense (without Fortified Gear), with another 25% from Armadillo secondaries, 9% from Grit stacks, and 10% from Tank role. That's a total of 100% damage resist, or 50% actual damage reduction. You'd possibly get a little more from Regeneration's scaling resist bonus, but I won't include that in the theorycrafting.
So, on average, an attack that normally hits for 1000 damage would be mitigated down to about 383 damage. 128 damage if you're blocking.
I had completely forgot about regen's resist bonus, that should help.
However, only 100% damage resist is pretty far below par than is comfortable for a tank. Though, I suppose it's the best we'll manage with this. If the 100% resist can be managed WITH the 40/60 dodge/avoid, then it's a little more comfortable. Jack Fool and some others will cause problems, but still. Not too shabby I suppose.
Edit: You managed 250 defense score?