I really wonder if those who think that being rude, or, "in your face," or whatever they choose to call it, is a new approach in contrast to a general approach of niceness are new around here or have selective memory.
Ive seen literally thousands of rude, obnoxious, and even downright hateful posts and/or threads directed at Cryptic, Atari, PWE, and even individual devs....
....and yet here we are. Is the current state of the game where we want it ? If rude posts are going to get us where we want, and they have been commonplace since launch, then this is what we want ?
The whole, "insanity, repeating," thing was mentioned earlier in this thread, well that logic applies to the negative, rude, whatever approach at least as much as it does to civility.
The reality of the matter is that not much, if anything, that we say on these forums will have a positive impact on the game. PWE doesn't really give a damn about these forums (or at least I have seen little indication that they do) or this game. The most notable work of significance (IMO of course) that I have seen any evidence of has involved a dev working on his own time. I would think that rude commentary about devs and their work is less likely to convince a dev to go above and beyond, to work on his own time, to work for free, for the benefit of the game than some basic civility.
To be clear, we are n an f'd up situation. I am not a Cryptic apologist. I find the current situation to be unpalatable, to say the least. But calling people out, insulting their work (what may be a joke between friends is generally less likely to be seen as such when the insult is targeted at complete strangers) and so on just don't seem like the way to encourage the new employees to give a f'k about this game and its community.
Video games are not an investment, this is why you are seeing your " investment" go nowhere. The "Squandered potential" argument for this game has literally been around since beta.
Many things in this game have come to fruition through politely asking.
I'm going to have to politely (lol) disagree with you here. More pronounced with regard to LTS members, it is an investment. Now there is no monetary return, this is true. However you invest in a game, which you expect a significant return in the form of enjoyment spent in the game for at least the equivalent value of what you paid for. If you get more, that's all profit. I do see it as an investment.
From a less clinical standpoint, I see a LTS as a symbolic vote of confidence. For me that's even more important and should be taken more seriously, these are players forking up lots of money ahead of time, essentially saying "I know you will put this to good use, and I will not regret paying this up front."
I really wonder if those who think that being rude, or, "in your face," or whatever they choose to call it, is a new approach in contrast to a general approach of niceness are new around here or have selective memory.
You're good people, and had you been one of the ones to reply to me first- I may have been a lot nicer.
However, it was the rampant forum rage around the Vibora era that got results. People were quitting. What was the estimate? 30%? I'm not sure that's accurate, most likely a guess.
I don't think we're being unreasonable by demanding communication. And if it's not the devs? Then perhaps they should go to their superiors at PWE and lay it out:
They're angry, what can we tell them? You're keeping us silent, and it looks like it's gonna hurt us.
To be clear, we are n an f'd up situation. I am not a Cryptic apologist. I find the current situation to be unpalatable, to say the least. But calling people out, insulting their work (what may be a joke between friends is generally less likely to be seen as such when the insult is targeted at complete strangers) and so on just don't seem like the way to encourage the new employees to give a f'k about this game and its community.
And as I've said, it's no more insulting than not coming to us and just saying 'Hi', and then going to some off-the-wall video game columnist and spilling the beans. It makes it seem like they don't care, or we're meaningless- so let it sting, IMO.
I'll issue a formal apology-
I'll even remove myself from the forums if they apologize for the silence.
However you invest in a game, which you expect a significant return in the form of enjoyment spent in the game for at least the equivalent value of what you paid for.
And what is the equivelant value here, please define. I am not sure how you are measuring this.
Is there units of enjoyment I am not familiar with? And how many of these units = 1$
And what is the equivelant value here, please define. I am not sure how you are measuring this.
Is there units of enjoyment I am not familiar with? And how many of these units = 1$
Semantics.
If I put time and money into something, it's an investment. Period. My motorcycle is an investment. If two years pass and there are no additional after-market modifications, and it's got a lot of problems that aren't being fixed at the dealership... my investment has gone bad.
Aren't you the guy who was telling lifetimers 'thanks for paying for my game, now stop whining and deal with it'?
If I'm mistaken, I'm mistaken. I'm not even accusing you. You could probably deny it if you said that and I'd believe you.
I hate to say this, but CO is most likely going to be shuttered within a year's time. The writing is on the wall:
1) PWE not taking recurring subscriptions from a bunch of CO subscribers, forcing them to Silver status... don't you find this strange that this problem is only affecting CO and not STO? Maybe because they'd have to answer to CBS lawyers for that, but CO is wholly owned by Cryptic/PWE
2) This new studio, which only has 12 people who all come from a failed MMO (Pirates of the Burning Seas), was only mentioned to a gaming news site to create the appearance that CO is doing well, when most likely they're just fall guys for the dummy corporation of "Cryptic North" which will get closed in around six months' time for not bringing in enough profit (mostly because PWE isn't collecting the recurring subscriptions like they should be). Cryptic North is nothing but a PWE tax writeoff.
Honestly, at the rate this is going, it'll be the closing of CoH all over again one year later; August 31 will come the announcement from PWE that CO is closing, and 11:59:59 PM Pacific time November 31, CO will shut down.
To be absolutely honest... I WANT to be wrong about this. I want to see CO grow and prosper and become the great game that is hiding in the cracks of what we have now. However, with once again no communication directly to the players and all the problems actually collecting money from CO players that is only affecting CO... this is looking less and less likely that this game has any chance of survival in the foreseeable future.
And what is the equivelant value here, please define. I am not sure how you are measuring this.
Is there units of enjoyment I am not familiar with? And how many of these units = 1$
How those ( wrong) assumptions working for ya? About as good as your investment I guess.
I am LTS. I feel I have gotten my money's worth in entertainment units from CO.
I... almost feel ashamed in responding to this! So if someone's point of view is different than yours, belittling it to the point of pretty much saying "the methods through which you formed your opinion are invalid, so you have no right to it." is ok?
I... almost feel ashamed in responding to this! So if someone's point of view is different than yours, belittling it to the point of pretty much saying "the methods through which you formed your opinion are invalid, so you have no right to it." is ok?
This is all too common. It's his M.O. Sometimes I forget which ones are which, since we seem to be (thankfully) rid of them sooner or later.
I... almost feel ashamed in responding to this! So if someone's point of view is different than yours, belittling it to the point of pretty much saying "the methods through which you formed your opinion are invalid, so you have no right to it." is ok?
I was sincerely asking how you measure that based on what you said, it sounded like it was measurable. If its not measurable I do not see how one could call it an investment as you woul never know if you got your return. The whole point of investing is the return.
I try to make my posts simple and to the point. I see where they can look abrupt and troll-ish. That is not my intent. I will try to amend that for the future.
And what is the equivelant value here, please define. I am not sure how you are measuring this.
Is there units of enjoyment I am not familiar with? And how many of these units = 1$
An investment does not have to be one of currency in order to be an investment. MMO companies, generally (in the past at least), wanted you to be emotionally invested in their games. They wanted you to make friends, establish connections, set down roots, and so on so that you were more likely to continue playing. FtP or subscription based a player will, or is more likely to, pay more if they stay longer.
There is a reason that game companies often describe their consumers as, "communities." They want the consumer to feel part of something. To be invested in the game. Emotionally invested in their characters, and so on. They need that for the simple reason that investment in the game and/its community can keep people playing during the, sometimes extensive, downtime between content releases.
You're good people, and had you been one of the ones to reply to me first- I may have been a lot nicer.
However, it was the rampant forum rage around the Vibora era that got results. People were quitting. What was the estimate? 30%? I'm not sure that's accurate, most likely a guess.
I don't think we're being unreasonable by demanding communication. And if it's not the devs? Then perhaps they should go to their superiors at PWE and lay it out:
They're angry, what can we tell them? You're keeping us silent, and it looks like it's gonna hurt us.
And as I've said, it's no more insulting than not coming to us and just saying 'Hi', and then going to some off-the-wall video game columnist and spilling the beans. It makes it seem like they don't care, or we're meaningless- so let it sting, IMO.
I'll issue a formal apology-
I'll even remove myself from the forums if they apologize for the silence.
This may have to be an agree to disagree moment because I don't consider someone not saying, "hi," to me to be an insult. Particularly when the situation is a step removed from personal interaction and where there are some doubts (to me at least) as to:
1) Has anyone at Cryptic even gotten around to giving them forum access at developer level ?
2) Are they allowed to post as developers while still, potentially, classified as, "dev noobs ?"
Honest question here, was it individual devs going to outside sites ? I would consider that odd, unless it was a supervised situation. Generally it isnt a good idea to allow new talent to represent your company to the media.
Whatever the case, don't remove yourself from the forums. Your opinions and insights are valid and a company should be willing to accept blunt, or even harsh, feedback if they want to succeed. My concern is not harsh feedback for the company, but rather the perception of targeting devs, joe working stiff, for feedback that seems more suited to the company.
I was sincerely asking how you measure that based on what you said, it sounded like it was measurable. If its not measurable I do not see how one could call it an investment as you woul never know if you got your return. The whole point of investing is the return.
I try to make my posts simple and to the point. I see where they can look abrupt and troll-ish. That is not my intent. I will try to amend that for the future.
There are way of measuring such a thing, weighing the cost of a LTS vs. Monthly sub costs, factoring in stipends, all of this against what it would cost if you bought these features piecemeal as F2P but all of that still comes down to: "your mileage may vary." For me, I got my LTS in the beginning of 2011 and got a year of solid content drops, costume sets, power sets whatever every month, by the end of 2011 I firmly believe I had gotten a great return on what I spent. I don't believe Cryptic has that same level of commitment to those who put up that kind of money now, that they did back then.
I hate to say this, but CO is most likely going to be shuttered within a year's time. The writing is on the wall:
1) PWE not taking recurring subscriptions from a bunch of CO subscribers, forcing them to Silver status... don't you find this strange that this problem is only affecting CO and not STO? Maybe because they'd have to answer to CBS lawyers for that, but CO is wholly owned by Cryptic/PWE
STO is being effected, and as far as I can tell from the Neverwinter forums there isn't an issue there
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
An investment does not have to be one of currency in order to be an investment. MMO companies, generally (in the past at least), wanted you to be emotionally invested in their games. They wanted you to make friends, establish connections, set down roots, and so on so that you were more likely to continue playing. FtP or subscription based a player will, or is more likely to, pay more if they stay longer.
.
There is a reason that game companies often describe their consumers as, "communities." They want the consumer to feel part of something. To be invested in the game. Emotionally invested in their characters, and so on. They need that for the simple reason that investment in the game and/its community can keep people playing during the, sometimes extensive,
Being invested and and investment are two different things. Not trying to belittle what you say, but...
I will assume he meant being invested instead of investment as it makes more sense in that context.
@vikaernes, I can see what you say. To me that is more called getting your money's worth, than an investment. Just a different pov I guess.
This may have to be an agree to disagree moment because I don't consider someone not saying, "hi," to me to be an insult. Particularly when the situation is a step removed from personal interaction and where there are some doubts (to me at least) as to:
1) Has anyone at Cryptic even gotten around to giving them forum access at developer level ?
2) Are they allowed to post as developers while still, potentially, classified as, "dev noobs ?"
Honest question here, was it individual devs going to outside sites ? I would consider that odd, unless it was a supervised situation. Generally it isnt a good idea to allow new talent to represent your company to the media.
At the micro level: Cryptic didn't announce the formation of Cryptic North until this month, even though they were supposed to have been working on CO (with some side work in the Neverwinter and Legacy of Romulus launch crunches) since January. And when they did announce it, it was Jack Emmert talking to Gamasutra. Nobody, from either the main office or North, has appeared in this forum or made an announcement on the main page related to North and their work on CO.
At the macro level: It's just one more data point to prove that Don't Talk To Champions Online Players is an official policy of Cryptic/PWE. With that overriding principle in place, it doesn't really matter if the North devs are still in a probationary period with regards to forum access.
The fact that nobody's said "Hi" isn't an insult on its own. As part of the litany of communication failures that has defined the current state of Champions Online, however, you're damn right it's an insult.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
So, I think we can all agree that being nice hasn't gotten any responses, nor has being nasty.
I say, it's time to whip out the BIG guns. The thing that REALLY matters. Money.
Time to shut the wallets and be vocal as to the why of it, along the lines of this:
"Crytpic, I am not spending another red cent on ANY of your games until Cryptic North actually communicates with the playerbase of Champions Online AND adds some real, permanent content to said game."
Firm, but not nasty. Polite, but not flaccid. Also, I'm already a month into this. Catch up, people!!
Been optimistic, since almost a year ago when I went from Silver (bought all the AT's bar Fist, Void and Scourge) to LTS in one big fat jump.
And I've continued to spend money, my event not so long ago was proof of that in addition to my build changes and purchases in game.
I've waited 9 months to play my main character the way I want to so far and time just keeps on ticking. Why?
*Points at the broken and beaten up Telepathy Power set Representative in the hospital ward next to his partner The Crowd Control System, currently comatose.*
We were shown New Telepathy additions ages ago and they were all but finalized. Right now...they don't even hold a candle to what they used to be. They've been TELEPATHY'D
I've really waited, and been patient and optimistic. I'm pretty sure if anyone had to wait almost a year to play their first and main character in a game they loved, they may not have waited around this long.
Funnily enough..I STILL have faith in Cryptic and the Dev Team. I seriously hope they make something of this game, I'd hate to be in this exact same situation this time next year...aka
- STILL waiting on Telepathy (I appreciate they are working on it, I really do so no hate here)
- STILL waiting on content for lvl 40s outside of Nemcon and the broken nemesis system
- The ability to PvP without having to have a set build to stand a chance at staying upright for more than 5 seconds.
- New costume sets
- Foundry
and the all important bug fixes.
And as for Cryptic North having been in possession of CO for SIX months so far? I had absolutely no idea...so...I'm just going to continue waiting until we get word.
There is nothing gained in getting upset and bad mouthing the way things are, even though its deserved, it doesn't exactly make things any better for us, just causes TT to have to respond best he can about awkward issues or purge threads. Something I'm sure is not on his favourites list.
To summarise: I want CO to be used and squeezed for ALL the potential it has and for that to be implemented in this game. The community here for the most part is a fantastic community, I'd hate to have to leave CO cause it went under or became insanely mundane, but honestly, it's not too far off that, for even me, who generally is an optimist. Come on Dev Team..we need you!
I got my old group to update and log in. they looked around and noted...a virtually deserted game, and no meaningful new content. I couldn't convince them to stay and play.
This game is dead. The only question is when they turn out the lights. Unlike CoH, CO won't be missed.
Been optimistic, since almost a year ago when I went from Silver (bought all the AT's bar Fist, Void and Scourge) to LTS in one big fat jump.
And I've continued to spend money, my event not so long ago was proof of that in addition to my build changes and purchases in game.
I've waited 9 months to play my main character the way I want to so far and time just keeps on ticking. Why?
*Points at the broken and beaten up Telepathy Power set Representative in the hospital ward next to his partner The Crowd Control System, currently comatose.*
We were shown New Telepathy additions ages ago and they were all but finalized. Right now...they don't even hold a candle to what they used to be. They've been TELEPATHY'D
I've really waited, and been patient and optimistic. I'm pretty sure if anyone had to wait almost a year to play their first and main character in a game they loved, they may not have waited around this long.
Funnily enough..I STILL have faith in Cryptic and the Dev Team. I seriously hope they make something of this game, I'd hate to be in this exact same situation this time next year...aka
- STILL waiting on Telepathy (I appreciate they are working on it, I really do so no hate here)
- STILL waiting on content for lvl 40s outside of Nemcon and the broken nemesis system
- The ability to PvP without having to have a set build to stand a chance at staying upright for more than 5 seconds.
- New costume sets
- Foundry
and the all important bug fixes.
And as for Cryptic North having been in possession of CO for SIX months so far? I had absolutely no idea...so...I'm just going to continue waiting until we get word.
There is nothing gained in getting upset and bad mouthing the way things are, even though its deserved, it doesn't exactly make things any better for us, just causes TT to have to respond best he can about awkward issues or purge threads. Something I'm sure is not on his favourites list.
To summarise: I want CO to be used and squeezed for ALL the potential it has and for that to be implemented in this game. The community here for the most part is a fantastic community, I'd hate to have to leave CO cause it went under or became insanely mundane, but honestly, it's not too far off that, for even me, who generally is an optimist. Come on Dev Team..we need you!
That's kinda how I see things. There's not a whole lot I can do because they already have my friggin' money. All I can do is watch things play out and hope I don't regret paying for that LTS a couple years ago.
I got my old group to update and log in. they looked around and noted...a virtually deserted game, and no meaningful new content. I couldn't convince them to stay and play.
This game is dead. The only question is when they turn out the lights. Unlike CoH, CO won't be missed.
You are SORELY mistaken. CO will be missed, if not for the content or powers, or flexability of the freeform system. It will be for something else, different for each person.
I know I will miss being able to play and RP with the friends I have made whilst playing CO and in general being a part of this community.
I hope it doesn't get closed down. Most of the people who complain, care about CO and love it and WANT and KNOW it can do better, so much better which is why they are turning/already are very bitter about it's current situation.
It's like opening a nicely wrapped box of chocolates only to find out the CONTENTs are around 2 years out of date, putting tiny flowers in amongst the spoilt chocolates isn't going to improve the situation.
Which is why CO needs development, if players ranting and getting upset did work, we'd be pretty much awesome by now I'd say. But sadly it doesn't.
"When a man is born, he is already dead. The way that he gets there is up to him." -Jag.
CO will be missed. Just about any game that has players or A player, will be missed by someone somewhere.
I think I'd be sadder if CO goes now than I was over for COX for the main reason, CO is the last that I know of with super hero based gameplay with this type of flexibility for power choices that in my opinion, dont miss those words now, in my opinion, more flexible than COX and the last with this much of an in depth character creator.
This game would be missed just as much as COX was.
And I think there are alot more players that care for this game and wish it well more than people give credit for. Many people give it a gance and dismiss it as "oh a bunch of people complaining about this and that." But when you really read into it, most of it's valid complaints from people who spent years and ton of money into this game even with all the flaws when in a game they wouldnt care about they would have simply canceled subscription and high tailed it out of Dodge and never look back and never mention it. Yet still with the state they seen this game go into, they are still here, still playing still, spending still asking what is going on, still giving suggestions. Some of course express it in various ways, and that is natural, but most do want this game to succeed and probably will be sad if not straight outright pissed, if they close the game.
Even if it's one person, that is someone and from the loos of it, it will be way more than just one.
Yeah, I can't say that the game will be missed by me, but I'm not-- I don't know what. "Narcissistic" is the word that comes to mind, but I know that's not the one I want. Anyway, I know that my not missing it doesn't mean that it won't be missed.
Also, I don't think it will shutter in a year. I could be wrong, but that kind of abandonment is something we would be able to pick up on in Trailturtle's posts. I'm not saying I'm full of sunshine and roses with optimism, but neither am I without hope.
And the pic was more to say, "Let's remember we're all on the same side, here."
The truly frustrating thing is not that CO is bad. It's that it's good. But it COULD be FANTASTIC.
Certain parts of it already are fantastic - the character creator for one. I say this as another refugee from Paragon - CO's Character creator is, in many ways, more robust than COH's.
The combat is fast-paced but not TOO fast. I like that it somehow feels less like a traditional MMO and more like an arcade fighter in many respects, but at the same time, does not rely on the player's native reflexes. It's not a "twitch" based system. An older guy like me can still be competitive with a 16 year old. (Not that I do PVP - I mean competitive in the sense of contributing to team effort).
But it's the lack of content that really hobbles Champions. What's there is is good (if sometimes overly campy). But there could be more. And what's more, it's not as if you need much in the way of original fresh new content when you have the absolute MOUNTAIN of printed reference material that Hero games has produced over the last decade and a half.
It's just finding the will and the means and resources to actually implement it. And NOT siphoning the resources that this game makes off to other games!
And the other major downside is the way the customer base has been treated the last couple of years. And particularly this past year.
We want communication and engagement from whatever devs are working on this game. And we're not getting it. (No knock on Trailturtle, but TT's not a dev.)
We want some respect. We want to be heard. We want ACKNOWLEDGMENT. We want to know that paying money into the game is not a waste of our money.
We are not supported, acknowledged, paid attention to in any meaningful way here, outside of TT's posts. And that's just not good enough. It's completely unacceptable. As a paying customer I am appalled at the business practices of Cryptic/PWE and insulted.
Right now, I honestly cannot say that it means anything at all for the future of CO to make purchases of any kind. So I may play the game. I may like the game. But as of July 12th, assuming nothing changes (and I doubt it will), I will stop being a paying customer.
In fact, right at this moment, if a fellow gamer and superhero fan were to ask me what game I recommended to give them the best experience in the superhero genre as an MMO? I'd point them to DCUO. Not because it's BETTER. But because it's SUPPORTED and has a FUTURE.
At one point, I would have said something different about missing CO. But departing so long, coming back, and seeing no development, no improvement, and as the cherry on the cake of failure, a contemptuous attitude suggested in the (lack of) communication, even on the simplest label by the so called 'new team'...any such attitude has melted.
And its sad. I've enjoyed the Champions IP since the 80's. But its obvious that there's no interest in really working more on this game. It was good, and could have been awesome, but they've quit. There was a lot of great parts to this game, they just never wrapped it up. Yeah, I resent them a lot for this failure.
Actually, I find both versions of the matter quite the same really: Just different points of views in which involves peace of words and a more harsh (but Subtle) approach.
Like Jon's post here, this is a more gentle approach of things in a more civilized way and I agree that there should be a more gentle way of dealing with the matter. Of course that is if it was a newly created problem unlike the one we've had, the one that's described here, for quite sometime now.
Cyber's approach to the situation is a more reasonable aspect of describing the problem because he was being real and showing his emotions.
What many don't get is that when you're mad about something that's been going on for sometime now, you get angry and you start to express your feelings through either by speech or written words.
I find (IMHO) Cyber's post better because it actually describes how I feel about the situation.
Don't get me wrong, I find Jon's explanation good too. There's just a thin line between Order and emotional outrage (in this case good).
Take it as you may, other people have different points of views, but you don't have to go and disrespect their points of views because they're not the same as yours.
Take it as you may, other people have different points of views, but you don't have to go and disrespect their points of views because they're not the same as yours.
Yup.
I think just about anyone have something, from a pet getting ran over to death, or spilled red kool-aid on the white alpaca rug, that may get them emotionally charged and someone may find getting enraged over tha tstuff is over reacting but raging over losing a cellphone or no facebook access for a day or no news on what Kim Kardashian is during for a week is perfectly reasonable.
Different things gets to different folks. It's just a matter of viewpoint.
If I were a developer for Cryptic North who perused these forums for any amount of time over the last several months, I wouldn't go out of my way to communicate with this community, either.
I also wouldn't feel very positive about my job of improving and expanding the game for them.
If I were a developer for Cryptic North who perused these forums for any amount of time over the last several months, I wouldn't go out of my way to communicate with this community, either.
I also wouldn't feel very positive about my job of improving and expanding the game for them.
You reap what you sow, people.
You know damn well that it works both ways. If Cryptic thinks its going to be sunshine and lollipops in here after a year of neglect, they're too stupid to run one MMO, let alone three. As it is, they've proven that they can only run two.
And if the main office didn't warn North about how angry we are... well, that probably works to Cryptic's advantage. This way, they don't have to make up an excuse for the Don't Talk To CO Players policy.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
If I were a developer for Cryptic North who perused these forums for any amount of time over the last several months, I wouldn't go out of my way to communicate with this community, either.
I also wouldn't feel very positive about my job of improving and expanding the game for them.
You reap what you sow, people.
If they expect the neglect and halfassery that's gone into CO for the last year to sit well on us, and for us to not be bitter- they are sadly mistaken and should probably think about that.
If they will refuse to communicate or produce content because of something so petulant as angry forumites, then they have absolutely no business developing MMORPG's, or anything more complex than boiling eggs and making sandwiches (with adult supervision). Negative criticism, even firm and bold vocalization of dissatisfaction is part of the feedback process that any successful business. If you refuse to accept that as reality, your business will fail harder than a Virtual Boy.
I do not owe them positive reinforcement for poor performance. Only a fool does this. If they expect anything different they are in the wrong career.
If I were a developer for Cryptic North who perused these forums for any amount of time over the last several months, I wouldn't go out of my way to communicate with this community, either.
I also wouldn't feel very positive about my job of improving and expanding the game for them.
You reap what you sow, people.
If I'm fully aware that I'm providing a poor service to the customers of the company I work for, and that their response is unsavory and heated because of that, I don't exactly have the excuse of feeling that I'm "in the dumps" and just not bother about rectifying whatever it is that made the customers feel that way, because if I did, I wouldn't have a job any more. The fact that I actually meet the customers face-to-face from time to time only reinforces the need for corrective action.
Now, if the management of the company decided that that particular group of customers weren't worth a damn to them any more, then I'd get off scott free.
Which is exactly what it feels like with Cryptic and us at the moment. Try to get that perspective in your head before putting all of the blame on us.
If I were a developer for Cryptic North who perused these forums for any amount of time over the last several months, I wouldn't go out of my way to communicate with this community, either.
I also wouldn't feel very positive about my job of improving and expanding the game for them.
You reap what you sow, people.
Yeah no.
This is not how business is conducted in this day and age.
Not that what you described ever was a good metric.
But especially not these days.
The argument that Cryptic north may not be ready to speak is valid, blanket communication cessation from Cryptic the parent company for how long now...I can't use those adjectives here.
If I were a developer for Cryptic North who perused these forums for any amount of time over the last several months, I wouldn't go out of my way to communicate with this community, either.
I also wouldn't feel very positive about my job of improving and expanding the game for them.
If I were a developer for Cryptic North who perused these forums for any amount of time over the last several months, I wouldn't go out of my way to communicate with this community, either.
I also wouldn't feel very positive about my job of improving and expanding the game for them.
You reap what you sow, people.
Communication is one of the basic fundamentals of any business. Especially in an industry as over saturated as the gaming market. When you add on the problems with the account and billing systems, it would be very shortsighted of Cryptic North to not talk to us.
Ignoring the vocal portion of your customer base is a terrible way to run a business. While the forums make up a small portion of the player base, there is a good chance that there are many players who visit the forums just to observe.
For every one person who has a complaint 10 other people likely have the same complaint they just aren't as vocal about it.
You are right, Cryptic is reaping what they have sown, and now that they have made their bed they either need to clean it up or sleep in it.
There must be very few adults who post on these forums.
Humans are humans, with all the failings that come with that distinction (including their responses to massive, continuous amounts of negativity), regardless of what business they find themselves in.
There must be very few adults who post on these forums.
Humans are humans, with all the failings that come with that distinction (including their responses to massive, continuous amounts of negativity), regardless of what business they find themselves in.
Someone has to lead a very sheltered life to actually believe that the excuse of "to err is human" or "I'm only human!" clears anyone of any wrongdoing by default from a business standpoint.
Humans are humans, with all the failings that come with that distinction (including their responses to massive, continuous amounts of negativity), regardless of what business they find themselves in.
Yes. And business is business, and when failings come with THAT people have a right to gripe, complain, and say what they feel. That negativity isn't something we kicked up just for the epic lulz and to pass the time. That negativity is pretty damned well deserved and you're obviously not playing the same game as me if you don't see it.
ere, let me explain how this works since you've made it to adulthood without having to figure this out-
If someone does something you don't like, you say something about it. If they don't listen, you start being more firm and loud about it. If they refuse to listen to you, and you have a say you can express your anger at the situation.
This is a BUSINESS, not your homeboys. They are not providing quality. We can voice our displeasure. If we kick back and pretend it's all good and smile, then we'll continue to be shoveled half-assed 'content', gamble boxes, and silence. Why? Because that's how HUMANS work, since you've brought that up. If you don't make it clear to someone you don't like what they're doing- especially when they provide a service- they will continue with poor quality service.
Yes, we all get it. They're humans and they're all probably great guys with wives and kids to feed and blah, blah, blah... we've voiced our displeasure, and people like you constantly barge into the forums and claim "Well I'm not pleased but you rude nastybutts need to stop being so grumpy-rumpus! This is uncalled for and you ought to be ashamed! Is this how you want to be when Jesus comes back?"
Well, where the HELL was your 'polite complaint' before all this? Nowhere to be found, which makes it blatantly obvious you're simply white-knighting and playing apologist.
So yes, these guys are grown men (maybe women) and we should respect them as people. However, they're more than capable of defending their own position without you having to do it for them.
But hey, fine. It's their paycheck and credibility. Not mine.
Comments
Ive seen literally thousands of rude, obnoxious, and even downright hateful posts and/or threads directed at Cryptic, Atari, PWE, and even individual devs....
....and yet here we are. Is the current state of the game where we want it ? If rude posts are going to get us where we want, and they have been commonplace since launch, then this is what we want ?
The whole, "insanity, repeating," thing was mentioned earlier in this thread, well that logic applies to the negative, rude, whatever approach at least as much as it does to civility.
The reality of the matter is that not much, if anything, that we say on these forums will have a positive impact on the game. PWE doesn't really give a damn about these forums (or at least I have seen little indication that they do) or this game. The most notable work of significance (IMO of course) that I have seen any evidence of has involved a dev working on his own time. I would think that rude commentary about devs and their work is less likely to convince a dev to go above and beyond, to work on his own time, to work for free, for the benefit of the game than some basic civility.
To be clear, we are n an f'd up situation. I am not a Cryptic apologist. I find the current situation to be unpalatable, to say the least. But calling people out, insulting their work (what may be a joke between friends is generally less likely to be seen as such when the insult is targeted at complete strangers) and so on just don't seem like the way to encourage the new employees to give a f'k about this game and its community.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I'm going to have to politely (lol) disagree with you here. More pronounced with regard to LTS members, it is an investment. Now there is no monetary return, this is true. However you invest in a game, which you expect a significant return in the form of enjoyment spent in the game for at least the equivalent value of what you paid for. If you get more, that's all profit. I do see it as an investment.
From a less clinical standpoint, I see a LTS as a symbolic vote of confidence. For me that's even more important and should be taken more seriously, these are players forking up lots of money ahead of time, essentially saying "I know you will put this to good use, and I will not regret paying this up front."
You're good people, and had you been one of the ones to reply to me first- I may have been a lot nicer.
However, it was the rampant forum rage around the Vibora era that got results. People were quitting. What was the estimate? 30%? I'm not sure that's accurate, most likely a guess.
I don't think we're being unreasonable by demanding communication. And if it's not the devs? Then perhaps they should go to their superiors at PWE and lay it out:
They're angry, what can we tell them? You're keeping us silent, and it looks like it's gonna hurt us.
And as I've said, it's no more insulting than not coming to us and just saying 'Hi', and then going to some off-the-wall video game columnist and spilling the beans. It makes it seem like they don't care, or we're meaningless- so let it sting, IMO.
I'll issue a formal apology-
I'll even remove myself from the forums if they apologize for the silence.
And what is the equivelant value here, please define. I am not sure how you are measuring this.
Is there units of enjoyment I am not familiar with? And how many of these units = 1$
Semantics.
If I put time and money into something, it's an investment. Period. My motorcycle is an investment. If two years pass and there are no additional after-market modifications, and it's got a lot of problems that aren't being fixed at the dealership... my investment has gone bad.
Aren't you the guy who was telling lifetimers 'thanks for paying for my game, now stop whining and deal with it'?
If I'm mistaken, I'm mistaken. I'm not even accusing you. You could probably deny it if you said that and I'd believe you.
1) PWE not taking recurring subscriptions from a bunch of CO subscribers, forcing them to Silver status... don't you find this strange that this problem is only affecting CO and not STO? Maybe because they'd have to answer to CBS lawyers for that, but CO is wholly owned by Cryptic/PWE
2) This new studio, which only has 12 people who all come from a failed MMO (Pirates of the Burning Seas), was only mentioned to a gaming news site to create the appearance that CO is doing well, when most likely they're just fall guys for the dummy corporation of "Cryptic North" which will get closed in around six months' time for not bringing in enough profit (mostly because PWE isn't collecting the recurring subscriptions like they should be). Cryptic North is nothing but a PWE tax writeoff.
Honestly, at the rate this is going, it'll be the closing of CoH all over again one year later; August 31 will come the announcement from PWE that CO is closing, and 11:59:59 PM Pacific time November 31, CO will shut down.
To be absolutely honest... I WANT to be wrong about this. I want to see CO grow and prosper and become the great game that is hiding in the cracks of what we have now. However, with once again no communication directly to the players and all the problems actually collecting money from CO players that is only affecting CO... this is looking less and less likely that this game has any chance of survival in the foreseeable future.
-END OF LINE
I am LTS. I feel I have gotten my money's worth in entertainment units from CO.
I've better things to do than play the troll's game.
I'll speak with someone who makes valid points.
I... almost feel ashamed in responding to this! So if someone's point of view is different than yours, belittling it to the point of pretty much saying "the methods through which you formed your opinion are invalid, so you have no right to it." is ok?
This is all too common. It's his M.O. Sometimes I forget which ones are which, since we seem to be (thankfully) rid of them sooner or later.
Edit: I think we broke the global chat server.
I was sincerely asking how you measure that based on what you said, it sounded like it was measurable. If its not measurable I do not see how one could call it an investment as you woul never know if you got your return. The whole point of investing is the return.
I try to make my posts simple and to the point. I see where they can look abrupt and troll-ish. That is not my intent. I will try to amend that for the future.
An investment does not have to be one of currency in order to be an investment. MMO companies, generally (in the past at least), wanted you to be emotionally invested in their games. They wanted you to make friends, establish connections, set down roots, and so on so that you were more likely to continue playing. FtP or subscription based a player will, or is more likely to, pay more if they stay longer.
There is a reason that game companies often describe their consumers as, "communities." They want the consumer to feel part of something. To be invested in the game. Emotionally invested in their characters, and so on. They need that for the simple reason that investment in the game and/its community can keep people playing during the, sometimes extensive, downtime between content releases.
This may have to be an agree to disagree moment because I don't consider someone not saying, "hi," to me to be an insult. Particularly when the situation is a step removed from personal interaction and where there are some doubts (to me at least) as to:
1) Has anyone at Cryptic even gotten around to giving them forum access at developer level ?
2) Are they allowed to post as developers while still, potentially, classified as, "dev noobs ?"
Honest question here, was it individual devs going to outside sites ? I would consider that odd, unless it was a supervised situation. Generally it isnt a good idea to allow new talent to represent your company to the media.
Whatever the case, don't remove yourself from the forums. Your opinions and insights are valid and a company should be willing to accept blunt, or even harsh, feedback if they want to succeed. My concern is not harsh feedback for the company, but rather the perception of targeting devs, joe working stiff, for feedback that seems more suited to the company.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
There are way of measuring such a thing, weighing the cost of a LTS vs. Monthly sub costs, factoring in stipends, all of this against what it would cost if you bought these features piecemeal as F2P but all of that still comes down to: "your mileage may vary." For me, I got my LTS in the beginning of 2011 and got a year of solid content drops, costume sets, power sets whatever every month, by the end of 2011 I firmly believe I had gotten a great return on what I spent. I don't believe Cryptic has that same level of commitment to those who put up that kind of money now, that they did back then.
STO is being effected, and as far as I can tell from the Neverwinter forums there isn't an issue there
@Aleatha1011 in CO | Keeper of the Cheesecake since Nov. 2011| Bunni BOT is on PRIMUS! | Come check out my deviantart page!
Being invested and and investment are two different things. Not trying to belittle what you say, but...
I will assume he meant being invested instead of investment as it makes more sense in that context.
@vikaernes, I can see what you say. To me that is more called getting your money's worth, than an investment. Just a different pov I guess.
At the micro level: Cryptic didn't announce the formation of Cryptic North until this month, even though they were supposed to have been working on CO (with some side work in the Neverwinter and Legacy of Romulus launch crunches) since January. And when they did announce it, it was Jack Emmert talking to Gamasutra. Nobody, from either the main office or North, has appeared in this forum or made an announcement on the main page related to North and their work on CO.
At the macro level: It's just one more data point to prove that Don't Talk To Champions Online Players is an official policy of Cryptic/PWE. With that overriding principle in place, it doesn't really matter if the North devs are still in a probationary period with regards to forum access.
The fact that nobody's said "Hi" isn't an insult on its own. As part of the litany of communication failures that has defined the current state of Champions Online, however, you're damn right it's an insult.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
I say, it's time to whip out the BIG guns. The thing that REALLY matters. Money.
Time to shut the wallets and be vocal as to the why of it, along the lines of this:
"Crytpic, I am not spending another red cent on ANY of your games until Cryptic North actually communicates with the playerbase of Champions Online AND adds some real, permanent content to said game."
Firm, but not nasty. Polite, but not flaccid. Also, I'm already a month into this. Catch up, people!!
Edit: Also, this: http://www.whitepages.com/business?key=Cryptic+North&where=Seattle%2C+WA
I'm having a beast of a time(and I LIVE in Seattle) tracking down this studio.
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.
Here's hoping they draw the right conclusion from lack of spending. Not that I expect them too.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
Been optimistic, since almost a year ago when I went from Silver (bought all the AT's bar Fist, Void and Scourge) to LTS in one big fat jump.
And I've continued to spend money, my event not so long ago was proof of that in addition to my build changes and purchases in game.
I've waited 9 months to play my main character the way I want to so far and time just keeps on ticking. Why?
*Points at the broken and beaten up Telepathy Power set Representative in the hospital ward next to his partner The Crowd Control System, currently comatose.*
We were shown New Telepathy additions ages ago and they were all but finalized. Right now...they don't even hold a candle to what they used to be. They've been TELEPATHY'D
I've really waited, and been patient and optimistic. I'm pretty sure if anyone had to wait almost a year to play their first and main character in a game they loved, they may not have waited around this long.
Funnily enough..I STILL have faith in Cryptic and the Dev Team. I seriously hope they make something of this game, I'd hate to be in this exact same situation this time next year...aka
- STILL waiting on Telepathy (I appreciate they are working on it, I really do so no hate here)
- STILL waiting on content for lvl 40s outside of Nemcon and the broken nemesis system
- The ability to PvP without having to have a set build to stand a chance at staying upright for more than 5 seconds.
- New costume sets
- Foundry
and the all important bug fixes.
And as for Cryptic North having been in possession of CO for SIX months so far? I had absolutely no idea...so...I'm just going to continue waiting until we get word.
There is nothing gained in getting upset and bad mouthing the way things are, even though its deserved, it doesn't exactly make things any better for us, just causes TT to have to respond best he can about awkward issues or purge threads. Something I'm sure is not on his favourites list.
To summarise: I want CO to be used and squeezed for ALL the potential it has and for that to be implemented in this game. The community here for the most part is a fantastic community, I'd hate to have to leave CO cause it went under or became insanely mundane, but honestly, it's not too far off that, for even me, who generally is an optimist. Come on Dev Team..we need you!
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
This game is dead. The only question is when they turn out the lights. Unlike CoH, CO won't be missed.
That's kinda how I see things. There's not a whole lot I can do because they already have my friggin' money. All I can do is watch things play out and hope I don't regret paying for that LTS a couple years ago.
Speak for yourself.
You are SORELY mistaken. CO will be missed, if not for the content or powers, or flexability of the freeform system. It will be for something else, different for each person.
I know I will miss being able to play and RP with the friends I have made whilst playing CO and in general being a part of this community.
I hope it doesn't get closed down. Most of the people who complain, care about CO and love it and WANT and KNOW it can do better, so much better which is why they are turning/already are very bitter about it's current situation.
It's like opening a nicely wrapped box of chocolates only to find out the CONTENTs are around 2 years out of date, putting tiny flowers in amongst the spoilt chocolates isn't going to improve the situation.
Which is why CO needs development, if players ranting and getting upset did work, we'd be pretty much awesome by now I'd say. But sadly it doesn't.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
__________________________
You'd be surprised. This is the only MMO that will be missed by me, and I've played a few.
"When a man is born, he is already dead. The way that he gets there is up to him." -Jag.
CO will be missed. Just about any game that has players or A player, will be missed by someone somewhere.
I think I'd be sadder if CO goes now than I was over for COX for the main reason, CO is the last that I know of with super hero based gameplay with this type of flexibility for power choices that in my opinion, dont miss those words now, in my opinion, more flexible than COX and the last with this much of an in depth character creator.
This game would be missed just as much as COX was.
And I think there are alot more players that care for this game and wish it well more than people give credit for. Many people give it a gance and dismiss it as "oh a bunch of people complaining about this and that." But when you really read into it, most of it's valid complaints from people who spent years and ton of money into this game even with all the flaws when in a game they wouldnt care about they would have simply canceled subscription and high tailed it out of Dodge and never look back and never mention it. Yet still with the state they seen this game go into, they are still here, still playing still, spending still asking what is going on, still giving suggestions. Some of course express it in various ways, and that is natural, but most do want this game to succeed and probably will be sad if not straight outright pissed, if they close the game.
Even if it's one person, that is someone and from the loos of it, it will be way more than just one.
Most definitely.
Also, I don't think it will shutter in a year. I could be wrong, but that kind of abandonment is something we would be able to pick up on in Trailturtle's posts. I'm not saying I'm full of sunshine and roses with optimism, but neither am I without hope.
And the pic was more to say, "Let's remember we're all on the same side, here."
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
The truly frustrating thing is not that CO is bad. It's that it's good. But it COULD be FANTASTIC.
Certain parts of it already are fantastic - the character creator for one. I say this as another refugee from Paragon - CO's Character creator is, in many ways, more robust than COH's.
The combat is fast-paced but not TOO fast. I like that it somehow feels less like a traditional MMO and more like an arcade fighter in many respects, but at the same time, does not rely on the player's native reflexes. It's not a "twitch" based system. An older guy like me can still be competitive with a 16 year old. (Not that I do PVP - I mean competitive in the sense of contributing to team effort).
But it's the lack of content that really hobbles Champions. What's there is is good (if sometimes overly campy). But there could be more. And what's more, it's not as if you need much in the way of original fresh new content when you have the absolute MOUNTAIN of printed reference material that Hero games has produced over the last decade and a half.
It's just finding the will and the means and resources to actually implement it. And NOT siphoning the resources that this game makes off to other games!
And the other major downside is the way the customer base has been treated the last couple of years. And particularly this past year.
We want communication and engagement from whatever devs are working on this game. And we're not getting it. (No knock on Trailturtle, but TT's not a dev.)
We want some respect. We want to be heard. We want ACKNOWLEDGMENT. We want to know that paying money into the game is not a waste of our money.
We are not supported, acknowledged, paid attention to in any meaningful way here, outside of TT's posts. And that's just not good enough. It's completely unacceptable. As a paying customer I am appalled at the business practices of Cryptic/PWE and insulted.
Right now, I honestly cannot say that it means anything at all for the future of CO to make purchases of any kind. So I may play the game. I may like the game. But as of July 12th, assuming nothing changes (and I doubt it will), I will stop being a paying customer.
In fact, right at this moment, if a fellow gamer and superhero fan were to ask me what game I recommended to give them the best experience in the superhero genre as an MMO? I'd point them to DCUO. Not because it's BETTER. But because it's SUPPORTED and has a FUTURE.
Nostalgic?
And its sad. I've enjoyed the Champions IP since the 80's. But its obvious that there's no interest in really working more on this game. It was good, and could have been awesome, but they've quit. There was a lot of great parts to this game, they just never wrapped it up. Yeah, I resent them a lot for this failure.
Like Jon's post here, this is a more gentle approach of things in a more civilized way and I agree that there should be a more gentle way of dealing with the matter. Of course that is if it was a newly created problem unlike the one we've had, the one that's described here, for quite sometime now.
Cyber's approach to the situation is a more reasonable aspect of describing the problem because he was being real and showing his emotions.
What many don't get is that when you're mad about something that's been going on for sometime now, you get angry and you start to express your feelings through either by speech or written words.
I find (IMHO) Cyber's post better because it actually describes how I feel about the situation.
Don't get me wrong, I find Jon's explanation good too. There's just a thin line between Order and emotional outrage (in this case good).
Take it as you may, other people have different points of views, but you don't have to go and disrespect their points of views because they're not the same as yours.
Hang on. What's stopping them? This would be a pretty good background world for an MMO, too...
Part of the problem since December, 2012.
Yup.
I think just about anyone have something, from a pet getting ran over to death, or spilled red kool-aid on the white alpaca rug, that may get them emotionally charged and someone may find getting enraged over tha tstuff is over reacting but raging over losing a cellphone or no facebook access for a day or no news on what Kim Kardashian is during for a week is perfectly reasonable.
Different things gets to different folks. It's just a matter of viewpoint.
I also wouldn't feel very positive about my job of improving and expanding the game for them.
You reap what you sow, people.
You know damn well that it works both ways. If Cryptic thinks its going to be sunshine and lollipops in here after a year of neglect, they're too stupid to run one MMO, let alone three. As it is, they've proven that they can only run two.
And if the main office didn't warn North about how angry we are... well, that probably works to Cryptic's advantage. This way, they don't have to make up an excuse for the Don't Talk To CO Players policy.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
I tend to agree. Cryptic certainly seems to be reaping what they sowed.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If they expect the neglect and halfassery that's gone into CO for the last year to sit well on us, and for us to not be bitter- they are sadly mistaken and should probably think about that.
If they will refuse to communicate or produce content because of something so petulant as angry forumites, then they have absolutely no business developing MMORPG's, or anything more complex than boiling eggs and making sandwiches (with adult supervision). Negative criticism, even firm and bold vocalization of dissatisfaction is part of the feedback process that any successful business. If you refuse to accept that as reality, your business will fail harder than a Virtual Boy.
I do not owe them positive reinforcement for poor performance. Only a fool does this. If they expect anything different they are in the wrong career.
If I'm fully aware that I'm providing a poor service to the customers of the company I work for, and that their response is unsavory and heated because of that, I don't exactly have the excuse of feeling that I'm "in the dumps" and just not bother about rectifying whatever it is that made the customers feel that way, because if I did, I wouldn't have a job any more. The fact that I actually meet the customers face-to-face from time to time only reinforces the need for corrective action.
Now, if the management of the company decided that that particular group of customers weren't worth a damn to them any more, then I'd get off scott free.
Which is exactly what it feels like with Cryptic and us at the moment. Try to get that perspective in your head before putting all of the blame on us.
probably because it doesn't even exist i could bet money on that
The Nemesis system needs fixing and here's ideas:
A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business. Henry Ford
Yeah no.
This is not how business is conducted in this day and age.
Not that what you described ever was a good metric.
But especially not these days.
The argument that Cryptic north may not be ready to speak is valid, blanket communication cessation from Cryptic the parent company for how long now...I can't use those adjectives here.
K no. Not how adults behave.
why is this 2 posts?!
Communication is one of the basic fundamentals of any business. Especially in an industry as over saturated as the gaming market. When you add on the problems with the account and billing systems, it would be very shortsighted of Cryptic North to not talk to us.
Ignoring the vocal portion of your customer base is a terrible way to run a business. While the forums make up a small portion of the player base, there is a good chance that there are many players who visit the forums just to observe.
For every one person who has a complaint 10 other people likely have the same complaint they just aren't as vocal about it.
You are right, Cryptic is reaping what they have sown, and now that they have made their bed they either need to clean it up or sleep in it.
But that's not Cryptic North's fault, now is it?
They're Cryptic division, not a separate company. And they seems to follow Cryptic pattern.
Provided if a) - they really exist and b) - they are indeed charged with doing anything with CO, my bet is still on their being a Gateway team.
There must be very few adults who post on these forums.
Humans are humans, with all the failings that come with that distinction (including their responses to massive, continuous amounts of negativity), regardless of what business they find themselves in.
'Nuff said.
CellarRat33 :: formerly Bsquared
***
"The great thing about glory unending is that it's dirt cheap!" - Tateklys
From the Adventures of Thundrax (canadascott)
***
Someone has to lead a very sheltered life to actually believe that the excuse of "to err is human" or "I'm only human!" clears anyone of any wrongdoing by default from a business standpoint.
You're probably right, but there's no shortage of wiser-than-thou manchildren.
Yes. And business is business, and when failings come with THAT people have a right to gripe, complain, and say what they feel. That negativity isn't something we kicked up just for the epic lulz and to pass the time. That negativity is pretty damned well deserved and you're obviously not playing the same game as me if you don't see it.
ere, let me explain how this works since you've made it to adulthood without having to figure this out-
If someone does something you don't like, you say something about it. If they don't listen, you start being more firm and loud about it. If they refuse to listen to you, and you have a say you can express your anger at the situation.
This is a BUSINESS, not your homeboys. They are not providing quality. We can voice our displeasure. If we kick back and pretend it's all good and smile, then we'll continue to be shoveled half-assed 'content', gamble boxes, and silence. Why? Because that's how HUMANS work, since you've brought that up. If you don't make it clear to someone you don't like what they're doing- especially when they provide a service- they will continue with poor quality service.
Yes, we all get it. They're humans and they're all probably great guys with wives and kids to feed and blah, blah, blah... we've voiced our displeasure, and people like you constantly barge into the forums and claim "Well I'm not pleased but you rude nastybutts need to stop being so grumpy-rumpus! This is uncalled for and you ought to be ashamed! Is this how you want to be when Jesus comes back?"
Well, where the HELL was your 'polite complaint' before all this? Nowhere to be found, which makes it blatantly obvious you're simply white-knighting and playing apologist.
So yes, these guys are grown men (maybe women) and we should respect them as people. However, they're more than capable of defending their own position without you having to do it for them.
But hey, fine. It's their paycheck and credibility. Not mine.