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For our new friends at Cryptic North:
jonsills
Posts: 6,317 Arc User
I know Cybersoldier's post was a bit harsh in that other (now-closed) thread; certainly the derogatory words about your previous work were uncalled for. That said, however, there was a kernel of truth behind his words.
We've been jerked around a fair bit by Cryptic historically. This hasn't always been their fault - Atari and PWE have been at least as responsible as the developers we've had - but the point remains that many of our community are losing hope. We've been loyal, we've kept the faith, but sometimes it's been really hard, especially when all the grand plans that had been unveiled under a previous Executive Producer seem to have been completely abandoned since.
Really, though, it wouldn't take a lot to make some of us feel better. (Not all of us, of course - people are people, after all, and some wouldn't be satisfied if you gave them a free costume set, three character slots, and a tongue-bath by the Hollywood celebrity of their choice.) All you'd need to do would be to have one of your guys there, someone besides TT or LordGar, drop into the forums for a moment to just say "hi". We don't need more promises about future content - Kirby knows we've had enough of those already. We don't need release schedules for further updates (not that we'd sneer if you offered them, of course...). Mostly what we're looking for is assurance that you exist, that you aren't just some marketing trick being employed by PWE to keep us quiet for a few more weeks.
Assurance that you are in fact working on Champions Online, not just adding to the workforce at STO and NW, wouldn't hurt anything either, of course.
We've been jerked around a fair bit by Cryptic historically. This hasn't always been their fault - Atari and PWE have been at least as responsible as the developers we've had - but the point remains that many of our community are losing hope. We've been loyal, we've kept the faith, but sometimes it's been really hard, especially when all the grand plans that had been unveiled under a previous Executive Producer seem to have been completely abandoned since.
Really, though, it wouldn't take a lot to make some of us feel better. (Not all of us, of course - people are people, after all, and some wouldn't be satisfied if you gave them a free costume set, three character slots, and a tongue-bath by the Hollywood celebrity of their choice.) All you'd need to do would be to have one of your guys there, someone besides TT or LordGar, drop into the forums for a moment to just say "hi". We don't need more promises about future content - Kirby knows we've had enough of those already. We don't need release schedules for further updates (not that we'd sneer if you offered them, of course...). Mostly what we're looking for is assurance that you exist, that you aren't just some marketing trick being employed by PWE to keep us quiet for a few more weeks.
Assurance that you are in fact working on Champions Online, not just adding to the workforce at STO and NW, wouldn't hurt anything either, of course.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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(Of note, the Sandy Butthole thing was a joke, but it was lost on some people.)
I was harsh, simply because people are fed up and I'm fed up. I have no faith in Cryptic. They owe this community a greeting after six months. Six months.
I'll reiterate: It would have taken ten minutes for one of them to yell at Trailturtle to bang up a greeting. Just a greeting. I'm asking for nothing else. He could have banged it up and they could have put their names on it, and we'd have known no different and it would have been a good sign.
But the silence, again, gives the impression that Cryptic North feels like they've been stuck with Champions Online. Like they're not at all concerned with the customers and fanbase. Not only that, but when in- if I'm not mistaken- that very same interview they talk about taking care of the games, improving them, and treating their customers better- we get silence? It's an insult to us, and not to ressurect anything- but I don't feel ashamed for insulting them.
This game has TONS of potential. It uses about 25% if you ignore all the problems. And seeing that potential go to waste while people jump ship for Neverwinter and Star Trek development is sad.
Show us you care. We've done all we possibly can. Right now, CO is running on charity and roleplayers.
EDIT:
When we have to beg you to do this, you should feel ashamed. You should have came forward, addressed us- like I've said, no one is expecting you to tell us your business plan and reveal spoilers. It's just pathetic we had to stumble across this on another site. You can tell a game reviewer but you can't address your own players?
If you're going to let Champions Online go to waste and rot away, just sell it to someone who cares about it and will do something other than shovel lockboxes and vehicles at us.
If you're going to have us report bugs and problems, listen to us and actually make an effort to do something about them. Stop ignoring them.
It took the Chat-Ban system to stir a stink on Neverwinter for you to take action. That's pretty much spitting in our face after we've begged for it to change since forever.
Look in the comments section in any article where Champions Online or Cryptic as a whole is mentioned. As you can see, you don't have a good reputation. Getting a new team was the first chance to take a swing at that and turn it around. Instead, you've dug yourself deeper in the grave.
You don't have anything major on the table worth mentioning to us? Fine. However, when you do things like talking to online press about how you guys have a new studio supposedly dedicated to improving the status of the game instead of us, then that's a problem. When you don't address concerns on some level and instead opt to treat us like mushrooms in the dark, that's a problem.
The last Q & A response mentioned that we're going to get auras. At least update us on the status of that, since that was the only thing ever really confirmed in the Q & A.
*fully supports more dev/player communication*
exactly a simple "hi we are the new dev team were going to take over now" for the game would be nice.
but i agree with cybersoldier 100%, enough is enough, we have been neglected for long enough.
i myself have been VERY patient and very hopeful with PWE/Cryptic and i said that they would never get another 2 cents from me and i meant it.
BUT if we do not get any form of a hello or something from the so called new development team by September, there is honestly no hope for this game anymore and i will be leaving and waiting for The Phoenix Project, with ALOT of my COH brethren.
I refuse to continue to support a product that not even the creators have faith in anymore
i will also make sure if people i know look ANY cryptic game to do their research before they try it or buy it, and steer them away from any cryptic product
so the balls in your court Cryptic/PWE make your move
The Nemesis system needs fixing and here's ideas:
A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business. Henry Ford
Oh, believe me- if I were a normal subscriber I'd have yanked my money back a long time ago, and would make do with an AT. And no, I won't be so rude as to demand my lifetime money back. If I would have waited another 3 months, I wouldn't have subscribed at all. But as it stands now? Not a cent. No money for retcons, nothing. I'm roleplaying, that's it.
One of the main problems we face is the constant pretending that these people making these poor decisions- whether it be Cryptic or PWE- are our good buddies and friends that would do us no wrong. You are a customer, they are a business. You have every right to voice your grievances with them. You have a right to be angry at their business practices. You do not owe them loyalty. Praise them when they do well, do not hesitate to tell them when they've failed. If you want to be pleasant about it? Go right ahead. I'm just staring at a track record of that simply not working at all.
The video game industry is currently not known for being great to its customers. You've seen firsthand the debacle that was the XBoxOne. Pleasantries did not work. You watched that unfold. Making excuses for their decisions and supporting them blindly, and not putting your foot down does not halt these bad track records- it's a blank check to keep going... kinda like when you grab Trailturtle's butt and he just whimpers, so you give it five or six good clenching squeezes and then you get a call from his dad telling you it's not appropriate and the lad's been crying himself to sleep every night and we'd appreciate it if you'd stop following us when we go out on family outings.
You must be assertive. I will support communication, but I will remind you: These are dark times for Champions Online if the trend is an indication- and there must be a line drawn in the sand.
You are the customer. They are the business. They are at our mercy, not us at theirs.
No news, no purchase. No content, no purchase. So guys... MOAR CARROTS!
I went through the "Coming Storm" in CoH.
NCsoft seemed to wear their disdain for their player-base like a badge of honor. They nodded and smiled the game into oblivion. Then, as we raged, they nodded and smiled us into attrition.
The only difference I see here is they haven't actually flipped the switch.
And maybe, just maybe, that's because CoH pushed back hard enough that they figured a better strategy is to nod and smile us into attrition first so that we can't say "but the game was still doing well" when they flip the switch.
Yeah, that sounds like a conspiracy theory or just DOOOOOOM--until you start trying to figure out what in the hell possible rational motivation they could have for the way they've been treating Champions and it's player-base.
I mean, it's either that, or that they are monumentally stupid, or that they just don't give a rats patootie what happens to Champions.
It's really getting to the point where it's so ridiculous that I have to wonder if they just want to see how much a player-base will take before they break as research for future reference.
PS/Edit: Devs, if you just frikkin talk to us, you'll be our heroes. It won't take much after how starved we've been. A little sip water to a man stranded in the desert is better than a mountain of gold.
They didn't.
Same ****, different team.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Welcome to the guys at Cryptic North.
Like many here in the community, we're going to hope like hell you can do better than Cryptic-proper has (not that that's saying much). But, we're NOT going to hold our breaths either.
Sorry if the reception here is going to be a bit...cold. But you have the misfortune of inheriting a community (and game) that has pretty much become the unwanted stepchild of Cryptic/PWE. A community to which many, MANY promises have been made. Most of which were subsequently broken. As such, we're now possessed of a healthy, well-deserved amount of distrust and cynicism.
In short, you're going to have to REALLY work to gain the trust of the community. This means actually communicating with us, making goals known and then letting us know how the progress goes on keeping to those goals. Simply having random Trailturtle posts "rah rah'ing" the game will get you nowhere. You guys are going to REALLY have to communicate with the community. YOURSELVES.
We appreciate the godawful mess you've inherited. But our sympathy is in epically short supply these days.
Give us reason to trust you.
Give us reason to continue paying money for you to work on this game.
Give us reason to continue PLAYING the game for Bob's sake!
We await some sign that you guys actually give a damn.
Don't make us wait too long...
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Carrots that we can actually eat would be preferred.
#TelepathyNOW
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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So far? Exactly the same rate of success as posts filled with politeness and charity.
Which is to say - ZERO.
In which case - since we've been trying charity and niceness for well over a year, I'd say it's time to really get down and dirty and see if an entire year of rage hotter than the surface of the sun does anything.
They say that a sure sign of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
We've been nice over and over and over.
Well we're not insane. So we're moving on to something different to see if that works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.
But don't sit there and try to say that being nice is going to work. Because we've been down that road many times now, and we know where it leads.
TT - you've done a bang-up job at a thankless task. But at this point, you're going to have to tell your bosses you can no longer keep the lid on. It's about to go nuclear on these forums and there's NO STOPPING IT.
Except for ONE thing and ONE thing only.
One of the Cryptic North guys actually making a post to say hello.
It's really that simple.
Shame it has to come to this to try and get heard. But that's the way it is.
EDIT: Incidentally, I've been on the 3 month promotional plan since last year. I re-up on July 12th. If the account problems aren't fixed by then and I'm forced to go Silver? I will STAY silver.
I will also go silver by choice if we haven't had a response from an actual Cryptic North dev by then.
July 12th. That's my personal deadline. Past that - no more money. It'll be a shame, since most of my characters are freeforms. But I'm willing to take that step.
Anybody else who's a subscriber and not a lifetime sub? And if you're as pissed as most of us are? Then here's my suggestion:
Go silver in July. You can even come back later. But unsub at least for one month.
Let's see if that gets their attention.
Hey, i totally agree with you, man. The video game industry has had it too good for too long, now they are starting to push people to their limit. I'm also resolute in not buying Rome 2 Total War because I hate their DLC pushing, and releasing what seems like a gutted game. It's gotten worse with every iteration since they implemented DLC's, so this time I'm putting my foot down and not buying.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
How many people do these Forums actually, practically, represent?
Because it's been a LONG time since I've seen anything but a small handful of regulars, interspersed with the occasional Lurker (who themselves were part of that group until they got bored/fed up with it).
While the Games' population is not huge, it far outstrips the Forums, by a ridiculous margin.
We may have to face facts here:
The Champs Forums are just not that RELEVANT to the folks running Champions Online.
I could actually see them reaching more Champs players by announcing through a magazine.
Heck, a decent portion of the people posting on these boards don't even play the game anymore. They are just here to shoot the breeze. And most of the others are Lifetimers. They already HAVE your money.
My solution? Get more people in game out here on the Forums. Friends. S.G.'s. Best Frenemies. Whatever Catgirls are stalking Caliga today. Whatever. Enough people to be more relevant to the Powers That Be.
Sorry for not being more up beat, or even angry. I've LONG gotten over both of those emotions with this game. I just enjoy it for what it is, hope for the best, and just roll with the worst.
'Wen considered the nature of time and understood that the universe is, instant by instant, recreated anew. Therefore, he understood, there is in truth no past, only a memory of the past. Blink your eyes, and the world you see next did not exist when you closed them. Therefore, he said, the only appropriate state of the mind is surprise. The only appropriate state of the heart is joy. The sky you see now, you have never seen before. The perfect moment is now. Be glad of it.' Terry Pratchet The Thief Of Time
Remember that really nasty one I made, the one that persuaded YOU to make this one? When up until this point no one was posting anything, and it was just a minor grumble?
I'd say it helps gain momentum.
Mission accomplished.
And if I've insulted them, and that's the reason why they won't talk to us? Well, I'd say that's a glaring indication of poor quality people. If one bitter guy on a forum shuts down all communication to your customers... if that is enough to make you punish the entire lot- you have absolutely no business making games, and I do not want anything to do with your business and I do not recommend it to others.
And let's just say they'll take that insult to heart. Fine, I don't think they deserve an apology yet.
When they apologize to this community for going to a third party about their Cryptic North studio- and not to the actual people who play the game, I'll apologize.
When they apologize for months of silence, I'll apologize.
When they apologize for the broken, incomplete, and thrown together costume pieces we've seen; I'll apologize.
When they apologize for the state of neglect and massive bugs in Champions Online, I'll apologize.
When they apologize for completely dropping the ball at CoX's closure- and having a community do more for their players than the developers did- when they had a moment to shine and be great and chose to simply have a small sale instead of at least showing they had some plans- then I'll apologizing.
When I see they actually care about us, I'll show I care about their feelings. But not a moment until.
List of things that are NOT challenging for Cryptic these days, regarding CO:
1 - lockboxes
2 - ???
3 - ...
:biggrin:
I've got to say, this place has really gone to crap over the past 4 years. I really want this game to continue because I have no other place to go for a Superhero MMO. (And no, I don't count the one you're thinking of.)
I just can't believe the community is being ignored like this.
TSW's developers are constantly coming out- at a minimum of once a month- the LEAD Developer is communicating with their players?
DCUO has developer posts constantly, if many of them are more business-oriented than camaraderie based.
There are three superhero MMO's in the works: Phoenix Project, Valiance Online, and Heroes and Villains- all headed up by developers who firmly believe in communication with the very people who make their game possible.
But hey, CO's 'new team' Cryptic North, can't even address their players in the game they've pledged to be polishing up and improving.
One more Superhero MMORPG on the horizon and that's enough to act as pallbearers at CO's funeral if this keeps up.
True. For the most part the well poisoners that cried foul at the suggestion of any wrongdoing are gone. And good riddance.
That being said: You have had your say. Let Sills have his. Won't hurt, may not help, may even act as force multiplier but bottom line civility dictates we take turns.
Cryptic/PWE has shown no such dedication to CO. There is almost no communication, no sign of improvements to the game. Very little end-game content of any kind. It's in the same slump that CoH was in before Paragon Studios got a hold of it. I just hope it doesn't suffer the same fate.
Things I am addicted to:
1. Champions Online
2. Making lists of threes.
...
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Pallih in game
Still, this does not explain the complete lack of communication from our new Cryptic North team. I don't know them, I don't know the reasons for it. I do know, how I would personally feel, stepping into their shoes. Were i a Cryptic North dev, and had I read back, familiarized myself with all past and present grievances, and analyzed the state of the game, and community as it stands right now... I would not know what to say. I don't think i would have words that would not either fan the flames higher, or be considered throwing past devs/cryptic/pwe under the bus. I know what I would do, is wait until I had something different to say, before I spoke. Plenty of past developers of CO have communicated extensively with the community regarding what they wanted to do only to have it turn out to be more smoke and mirrors. This is only speculation on my part, but I'm hoping they're waiting until they can give us something of real substance with their words, as opposed to more Cryptic doubletalk and promises.
Gateway seems to be yet another Cryptic new shiny. It also explains why NW and STO leaders expect something extra from Cryptic North, but nobody's talking about CO.
Frankly, I wouldn't be even surprised.
The only hope for CO would be to take this game away from Cryptic.
Forever.
But also this game is not in shape for being desirable for anyone. It has value only for Cryptic as their testing ground/school for new developers. Nobody sane would buy it from Cryptic. So it's a catch 22.
Play this game as it is.
It will not improve, that's obvious.
Be happy that CO is still around. And wait for another superhero game, or more improvements made for DCUO.
Both are more likely to happend than any change of course with CO.
Two of those are from amateur devs who don't even have an office. Most likely both will fail shortly into the development process. Not trying to be a nay sayer, just being realistic about amateur projects with no budget.
The third I've never even heard of
The only effect any of our posts have is on each other, and that's why I think we should be nice.
Not because of some delusional idea that it will somehow encourage a dev to talk to us. I am absolutely sure TT has communicated every important point years ago.
But because while all of us squat in the desolation, picking through the rubble for any morsel, making the experience even more miserable is just obnoxious.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Let's be fair- they've done more in the last 6 months that Cryptic has for CO, so I'll have a little more faith in them than I do CO. Besides, like I keep hearing about CO: "Have faith and be positive and little gnomes will build a new zone for you and bring you a fresh whiskey every night!"
I'll be nice, of course. Passive-aggressiveness counts as nice now, apparently. I guess things have changed.
"Oh, please f'give 'im, m'Lords! 'e's not right in 'is 'ead, I say! Don't be angry wif us, m'Lords- he's not meanin' it, we swears! Oh, 'ave mercy, m'Lords!"
I agree with you. However, making noise on this forum -does- do something. I've seen it happen. And if it gets completely blown off? Then it shows us exactly what kind of people we're berating, apologizing for, and depending on altogether.
Wow. That's friggin reprehensible, and you should be f'in ashamed of yourself.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Ah, pulling the race card to get a guaranteed thread lock. Well played.
I've never heard of such a thing. What are you talking about?
(I mean, the only thing I can parse from that is "discrimination against Clowns". Er... what? )
Um... apparently you don't know what that word means.
But no, I used it to imitate the white-knight apologists that somehow thing passive-aggressiveness is 'nice' as opposed to being rude.
I'm rude.
Passive-Aggressive is spineless and rude.
No. I'm not derailing this thread by fueling silliness. Please continue the discussion.
Well, Game of Thrones/Storm of Swords kinda put me off about Minstrels after the Red Wedding. Minstrels with their... Rains of Castamere and crossbows... ruining a perfectly good family.
Even though you kinda kicked dust up by bringing the baloney over to this thread after Smack brought down the hammer last time. I think we get it by now; You're mad and you're going to let every single person know that and if they say otherwise then they are fanboys. Can you imagine how annoying that gets when it's repeated several times in a single thread? Have a Snickers, man.
You do realize that the very first sentence of this thread is basically Sills calling me by name. Then follow suit with the passive-aggressive snyde comments from the same people before.
"Look, M'Lords- we ain't like 'im, no sire, we ain't!"
Who brought the baloney, and who was making his point more politely than before?
To be honest, the snark was pretty well deserved and how you're going about this now is giving us more evidence of such behaviour. Also, portraying people who don't agree with your opinion as religious nutjobs isn't really helping your case as much as it makes you come across as a total jackass.
... Thank you so very much.
Are we reading the same thread here?
Edited for the sake of being 'nicer'.
It's half 'seeing my investment go nowhere' and watch friends and good times dwindle.
The other half is not taking Champions Online and making it into what it -could be-. The way things are running now, it's like watching someone use a gold brick as a doorstop in low-income housing.
Edit:
To smash the 'this won't do anything!' argument, I highly recommend doing your research on the Vibora Pay forum rage.
Sweet cyan words of truth.
I say stuff and I say things, sometimes together but only when I'm feeling adventurous.
I'm @blu8 in game!
My friend, you haven't seen snide.
What I was doing was taking the points you made, and making them politely. It's possible to be polite, you know, without being "passive-aggressive". This seems to be uncommon on the Internet, but it's fairly well-known out in the face-to-face world, where John Gabriel's Greater Internet (Jerk)wad Theory doesn't apply.
But if you'd like me to be snide, just let me know...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Hay hay now... no need to get your sandy butthole all clenched tight over this, calm yourself we're all just talking here...
Edited for this disclaimer: I ****ing loved Pirates of the Burning Sea :B
See this ^?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You think it 'doesn't count' or is 'cleverly disguised'. It isn't. At least I'm out with it.
Edited. Impact made. No need to drag it out.
Let's face it John, to make yourself look better you used me as a stepping stone. You needed to make no references to me at all to make your own points, but you chose to take a jab at me because I may have verbally lashed a thing you like. That's low, lower than I'd expect from someone literate.
There was literally no reason at all for you to mention me. If you wanted to be the bigger man for all to see, the smartest way would have just be pretend that I never even made my post and create your own.
You don't have to prove you can be snide. I know you can.
But you know, If I'm going to risk a forum ban for flames- at least I'll be out with it instead of white-knighting and pretending that I'm not insulting someone and playing innocent.
Video games are not an investment, this is why you are seeing your " investment" go nowhere. The "Squandered potential" argument for this game has literally been around since beta.
Many things in this game have come to fruition through politely asking.