Devs, if you can't get rid of the system because of a decision by the higher ups, can you at least amend it so that a person can only get ignored once in a twenty minute span by a single handle? This should prevent at least a little bit of the abuse.
Once a day or once a month.
If you put someone on ignore, there should be exactly ZERO legitimate reason to need to ever put them on ignore again.
Look, the system is what it is and judging from the length of time this subject has been active and the responses from Cryptic, they have neither the budget nor desire to change anything.
So, like prison ****, we should just lay there and try to enjoy it? Right?
Easy fix? Remember when the Nighthawk stuff was added, and broke things that were in no way related? Or when the devs discovered the cure to the debilitating rubber-banding in the Desert was to remove the coyotes that used to hang out near Greenskin?
Take out something that's embedded in the software already, and who knows what goes with it? Personally, I'd rather risk not being able to voice my opinion (for what it's worth, which usually ain't much) for 24 hours...
Frankly I think that says more about the competence of the dev/QA team (or more likely their management) and their level/degree of dedication to this game than it does about what we as paying costumers should expect from a product.
So, like prison ****, we should just lay there and try to enjoy it? Right?
Howabout NO?
Heck, I'll go you one better.
Howabout HELL NO?
It depends on what's easier to add for the programmers without breaking the system, whether it's a new buffer with a 20 minute timer for ignore handles, or a new field for ignores that includes the time the ignore took place. If the latter works better, then setting a day as the time limit should do the trick.
Oh I have no doubt that a great number of people dislike this system, even I think it could be done better. But in the absence of any quantifiable data (can you point me to a poll on this subject?) my assertion remains. When the player base can be measured in the 1000's, 20-30 people ranting in a forum is a mere handful. You can change the words if they do not suit you but the statistics remain the same. :rolleyes:
And as several posts over the years have shown, even in this thread, some people do like the system.
Look, the system is what it is and judging from the length of time this subject has been active and the responses from Cryptic, they have neither the budget nor desire to change anything.
The solution is simple, don't make yourself a target for griefing.
Absolutely. The safest way to do this is to not use zone chat, at all. So, the workaround is to either use with circumspection or not use at all one of the game's features. Oh, let's add, if you don't want to be part of the problem, don't use the ignore feature. So, another system that is impacted.
Yes, they won't do anything about it. I accept that. Maybe I like tilting at windmills. All things considered, the system is not good customer service.
Yes, I know, I used good customer service in a discussion about Cryptic Studios. Sorry.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
The only people who like this system are the ones who get to abuse it for their own personal gain like if someone inadvertently bumps your post to sell an item and you get them chat-banned. Or someone wants to just talk to you because they don't agree with you, and you take it as a provoked attack. How DARE they disagree with you, right?
Not having the budget is NOT the reason for their lack of action. This has been a problem since 2007 (see link #1 in signature). I would have been more than willing, ecstatic even, if they sacrificed a few of the MANY things they've released in order to focus on making the base of the game's system stronger. The desire to change or lack thereof? Yeah that's the most likely reason, too much effort for them.
But don't you dare tell me or anyone else "not to make ourselves targets". Does hosting community events make me a target? Talking with with friends in local chat about how cool the new costume set is, does that make me a target? I should be a good little player and just shut up about the system since I can't change it right? Wrong. :mad:
I've done nothing but help the community of this game and I swear I will not stop fighting this gross negligence of our rights as customers. Screw the fact that I might not change anything, at least I know what I'm doing is the right thing to do.
I don't think he's telling you how to act. He's just saying what the only way to avoid this system is.
Like he said, it is what it is. And it's not likely to change. There's nothing wrong with announcing a costume contest, at all, but: if you do not want to get chat banned, your only recourse is to "not make yourself a target" by not using zone chat. Or any public chat, for that matter.
Is that a good thing? No, no at all. But it's the only thing that'll work.
Well, as far as announcements go, you could always make an alt account for that. But yeah. Unfortunately, it is what it is.
Here's an idea guys. I've seen in the past that things got changed by being blatantly and repeatedly abused; not in the normal course of such abuse, but by people who deliberately made the abuse an issue because they wanted it to get changed. It worked for some powers, let's see if it works for this?
Put everyone you see talking anywhere at any time on ignore. Once there are entire channels of players getting chat banned for no reason other than that they can be, we'll find out if anyone cares.
After all, you won't even be doing anything wrong. You're not technically abusing the system. You're not abusing a glitch or exploiting a programming loophole. You're just putting people on ignore, something you have a right to do as much as you please.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
To the people belittling the number of players that have a problem with the system keep in mind that probably some 80% or more of the game's players don't even use the forums. At all. Now safely assume that a lot of people that DO have a problem with it simply skipped over posting because they don't feel like it's gonna change anything so why bother. Then also you can figure that even of the 20% or so of the playerbase that uses the forums, at least some of them either only posts in PvP areas or uses it for research on known bugs, powersets, etc.
So in all probably 1-5% of the population could even be expected to post here. That means that the number of people who actually don't like the system is MUCH MUCH larger than represented. Also I think we've had more people show up in disfavor of the system than in favor of it. So there again.
All that aside I may go back to using Zone again. Might just find me a way to fight back each and every time this system is abused against me in the future. And so far both times it's happened I've had a good idea where the attack came from. Maybe if there are consequences to their actions, maybe if they have to taste their own medicine, MAYBE if someone makes the griefers accountable for their actions, then just maybe they'll lay off it in the future.
Sometimes you have to work within the system in order to fight it. Regardless of whether I choose to return to zone chat or not, I refuse to be bullied in chat any longer with impunity.
All that aside I may go back to using Zone again. Might just find me a way to fight back each and every time this system is abused against me in the future. And so far both times it's happened I've had a good idea where the attack came from. Maybe if there are consequences to their actions, maybe if they have to taste their own medicine, MAYBE if someone makes the griefers accountable for their actions, then just maybe they'll lay off it in the future.
We want the player-based chat ban system removed and fixed because we do not like how it's being abused and used against us. What merit do we have, if we abuse the same system we're fighting so hard against? Revenge does not work and I refuse to use the Report Spam function solely for this purpose.
I will use the ignore function though; if asking some player who feels the need to be the center of attention to, "please stop" doesn't work, and communication is vital via the channels I admin for or the contest I'm running, then I will ignore them.
Other players shouldn't have to suffer because I can't do my job in the game. This and ONLY this, is the reason I would ever use the ignore function.
If you put someone on ignore, there should be exactly ZERO legitimate reason to need to ever put them on ignore again.
There was a period of time where I was queuing for PvP on a regular basis (a point in time when this was worthwhile). While so queued, and hanging around in MC I might put someone on ignore due to the nature of their use of zone chat. This was before I learned that ignoring someone could cause them to be chat banned.
When the PvP queue popped I would generally remove anyone I had just added from my ignore list so as to avoid any possible situation where I could not communicate with a teammate (or opponent for that matter) in the match.
Upon finishing the match, and returning to MC, I might very well end up adding the same individual(s) back to my ignore list (for the same reason they were added in the first place).
I don't follow this practice any more for the simple reason that I don't think that someone should be banned from a part of the game because I am uninterested in their view of who would win in a battle between the Hulk and Superman.
The only people who like this system are the ones who get to abuse it for their own personal gain like if someone inadvertently bumps your post to sell an item and you get them chat-banned. Or someone wants to just talk to you because they don't agree with you, and you take it as a provoked attack. How DARE they disagree with you, right?
Not having the budget is NOT the reason for their lack of action. This has been a problem since 2007 (see link #1 in signature). I would have been more than willing, ecstatic even, if they sacrificed a few of the MANY things they've released in order to focus on making the base of the game's system stronger. The desire to change or lack thereof? Yeah that's the most likely reason, too much effort for them.
But don't you dare tell me or anyone else "not to make ourselves targets". Does hosting community events make me a target? Talking with with friends in local chat about how cool the new costume set is, does that make me a target? I should be a good little player and just shut up about the system since I can't change it right? Wrong. :mad:
I've done nothing but help the community of this game and I swear I will not stop fighting this gross negligence of our rights as customers. Screw the fact that I might not change anything, at least I know what I'm doing is the right thing to do.
I don't think he's telling you how to act. He's just saying what the only way to avoid this system is.
Like he said, it is what it is. And it's not likely to change. There's nothing wrong with announcing a costume contest, at all, but: if you do not want to get chat banned, your only recourse is to "not make yourself a target" by not using zone chat. Or any public chat, for that matter.
Is that a good thing? No, no at all. But it's the only thing that'll work.
Well, as far as announcements go, you could always make an alt account for that. But yeah. Unfortunately, it is what it is.
There's a difference between looking for a fight and communicating freely. To some extent the internet runs on the ol' adage of "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" (which goes both ways), but this is too far and is unacceptable.
You can rationalize this away Biffsmackwell, but when it happens to you or one of your friends who you KNOW wasn't doing anything remotely justified to deserve that. Or some supergroup decides to gang up on somebody and keep them muted on multiple days (which HAS happened in the past and will continue as long as people don't get a long and bullying exists, which WILL always happen in social settings). Then you'll start to see what an atrocity is and you won't be making such foolish excuses for a broken (in)justice system.
Think what you will, only a fool or one intended to abuse it would support such a system.
To the people belittling the number of players that have a problem with the system keep in mind that probably some 80% or more of the game's players don't even use the forums. At all. Now safely assume that a lot of people that DO have a problem with it simply skipped over posting because they don't feel like it's gonna change anything so why bother. Then also you can figure that even of the 20% or so of the playerbase that uses the forums, at least some of them either only posts in PvP areas or uses it for research on known bugs, powersets, etc.
So in all probably 1-5% of the population could even be expected to post here. That means that the number of people who actually don't like the system is MUCH MUCH larger than represented. Also I think we've had more people show up in disfavor of the system than in favor of it. So there again.
All that aside I may go back to using Zone again. Might just find me a way to fight back each and every time this system is abused against me in the future. And so far both times it's happened I've had a good idea where the attack came from. Maybe if there are consequences to their actions, maybe if they have to taste their own medicine, MAYBE if someone makes the griefers accountable for their actions, then just maybe they'll lay off it in the future.
Sometimes you have to work within the system in order to fight it. Regardless of whether I choose to return to zone chat or not, I refuse to be bullied in chat any longer with impunity.
I don't think he's telling you how to act. He's just saying what the only way to avoid this system is.
Like he said, it is what it is. And it's not likely to change. There's nothing wrong with announcing a costume contest, at all, but: if you do not want to get chat banned, your only recourse is to "not make yourself a target" by not using zone chat. Or any public chat, for that matter.
Is that a good thing? No, no at all. But it's the only thing that'll work.
Well, as far as announcements go, you could always make an alt account for that. But yeah. Unfortunately, it is what it is.
Thank you Biff. This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Being an experienced IT professional, I have a bit of insight into the software development process and I'm just saying why it's not going to change. But of course, people always like to shoot the messenger.
Like all advice, take it or leave it... the choice is yours. But continually raging at the machine is unproductive.
Btw, where did you guys get the idea you had rights? Didn't you read the EULA?
You can rationalize this away Biffsmackwell, but when it happens to you or one of your friends who you KNOW wasn't doing anything remotely justified to deserve that. Or some supergroup decides to gang up on somebody and keep them muted on multiple days (which HAS happened in the past and will continue as long as people don't get a long and bullying exists, which WILL always happen in social settings). Then you'll start to see what an atrocity is and you won't be making such foolish excuses for a broken (in)justice system.
Think what you will, only a fool or one intended to abuse it would support such a system.
Then why are you still playing this game? By doing so you support the system. :eek:
Heh I would have thought you'd support this system by putting scammers such as @XxXxXxX_Boy (not his real handle but we both know what it is) out of business.
Like all advice, take it or leave it... the choice is yours. But continually raging at the machine is unproductive.
Throwing aside your misunderstanding of the nature of statistics (the girl wore a dress and was mugged, therefore girls shouldn't wear dresses. I announced a costume contest and got muted, therefore I should never host costume contests), what would you recommend xeyare, and the dozens of others being unfairly treated by this system do? If you have a good idea that we haven't already tried, then please share. I'm up for anything productive.
You can rationalize this away Biffsmackwell, but when it happens to you or one of your friends who you KNOW wasn't doing anything remotely justified to deserve that.
Smacky was rather famously chat-banned once for saying, in chat, "Wolverine sucks!" That was it - no spamming or anything, just one opinion that someone disagreed with. So he knows what it's like to have this happen.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Here's an idea guys. I've seen in the past that things got changed by being blatantly and repeatedly abused; not in the normal course of such abuse, but by people who deliberately made the abuse an issue because they wanted it to get changed. It worked for some powers, let's see if it works for this?
Put everyone you see talking anywhere at any time on ignore. Once there are entire channels of players getting chat banned for no reason other than that they can be, we'll find out if anyone cares.
After all, you won't even be doing anything wrong. You're not technically abusing the system. You're not abusing a glitch or exploiting a programming loophole. You're just putting people on ignore, something you have a right to do as much as you please.
I'm beginning to wonder if this above - as distasteful as it is - is the only thing that has any chance at all of getting a response, given that we've tried literally every other polite measure and been ignored.
What do you suppose the critical mass has to be of chat-banned and annoyed people before Crpytic gets off it's **** and does something? 1/8th the total online population at a given time? 1/4th? Half?
Does the entire current population of Champions players have to be chat-banned and angry about it before Cryptic does something?
I'm beginning to wonder if this above - as distasteful as it is - is the only thing that has any chance at all of getting a response, given that we've tried literally every other polite measure and been ignored.
Actually they have given us a response. We have been told that the system is working as intended and is not going away.
You can rationalize this away Biffsmackwell, but when it happens to you or one of your friends who you KNOW wasn't doing anything remotely justified to deserve that. Or some supergroup decides to gang up on somebody and keep them muted on multiple days (which HAS happened in the past and will continue as long as people don't get a long and bullying exists, which WILL always happen in social settings). Then you'll start to see what an atrocity is and you won't be making such foolish excuses for a broken (in)justice system.
Think what you will, only a fool or one intended to abuse it would support such a system.
Ha, you think I'm a fool because I don't understand the system? No, you're not even close. I understand it completely. I'm not rationalizing anything. I actually think of myself as a rational person. Know why this chat system doesn't bother me much? Because it's a game, and it doesn't matter that much to me.
Every time this issue comes up, I have always been against it. I've always supported people speaking out against it. The system is dumb, no doubt about it.
Was I making excuses for the system? Absolutely not. Neural made a point. The only way to avoid being chat banned is to not chat. Forutne took it the wrong way, and I simply explained what he was trying to say. There wasn't even any opinion in my part of the post, I was just reiterating his point. The only reason I took the time to reiterate the point is because we've heard time and again that the system is what it is, and it's not going to change (we got a little tidbit about "we'll look into making a special case for Champs" but that was forever o'clock ago). Yes, absolutely, the system sucks, but, at this point, with what we know about it, you're simply gonna have to man up and deal with not being able to chat in a game for 24 hours. If you can't handle that, don't make yourself a target.
So, try reading a little better next time, and watch who you go calling a fool, or you just might end up looking like one yourself.
PS - I have been chat banned in the past. My first time, as jon has pointed out, it was the first thing I'd said in chat all night ("Wolverine sucks." (not even an exclamation point!)). I'd been out farming level 11 Dark Speeds that night, solo, so I was in Resistance most of the time. When I was done, some people were talking about Wolverine, I said the line, and I was chat-banned instantly. Mind, this was at a time before I or anyone else knew how the system worked. I thought it was instant, but we all know now that it wasn't.
I did get on the forums and made a post about the chat ban, but I took it in stride, with a bit of humor. Sorry, but it's a chat ban. It doesn't matter. My car wasn't stolen, my grandma didn't die, my bank information wasn't stolen. I got a chat ban.
And before you start calling me out about abuse, I have also been chat banned when I wasn't even playing the game, or logged in for that matter. Again, I did make a post, but it was like "Har har I got banned again!" No rage, no negative emotion, just hey, look what happened! At the time, we didn't know the system was concrete and couldn't/wouldn't be changed, so the more posts about it, the better, I thought.
When we did find out how the system works, it was a lot more clear to me why I got the ban. I like to bother people, so it's no surprise to me that I have "enemies" (something I find ridiculously hilarious as well) who will try to silence me in the game. Hell, there's people who don't like me just because I'm a moderator with like zero power on the forum. It's like the twilight zone.
PPS - I'm not even mad at you for helping to put a chat ban on me! You put me on ignore once in-game for saying Teleport was broken. :P
With respect Smacky, when I'm told, "The solution is simple, don't make yourself a target for griefing." I interpret that has being told how to act. If you interpret that differently then, well I'm concerned but we'll agree to disagree.
I'm beginning to wonder if this above - as distasteful as it is - is the only thing that has any chance at all of getting a response, given that we've tried literally every other polite measure and been ignored.
What do you suppose the critical mass has to be of chat-banned and annoyed people before Crpytic gets off it's **** and does something? 1/8th the total online population at a given time? 1/4th? Half?
Does the entire current population of Champions players have to be chat-banned and angry about it before Cryptic does something?
Will ANYTHING get them to move?
Aside from the fact that abusing the system is against the ToS, and that if you partake in this you run the risk of being banned and have any other appropriate action taken against you, I ask again:
Why would anyone take us seriously if we use a system that is broken to prove the point that the system shouldn't be used? It's hypocritical.
With respect Smacky, when I'm told, "The solution is simple, don't make yourself a target for griefing." I interpret that has being told how to act. If you interpret that differently then, well I'm concerned but we'll agree to disagree.
Aside from the fact that abusing the system is against the ToS, and that if you partake in this you run the risk of being banned and have any other appropriate action taken against you, I ask again:
Why would anyone take us seriously if we use a system that is broken to prove the point that the system shouldn't be used? It's hypocritical.
I am also against further abuse of the system to make a point. As tempting as it is to think that management might actually acknowledge the problem, it is not a good idea to use a system if you believe it is wrong. Also, I am not inclined to negatively impact anyone's gameplay.
Also, what would probably happen is that instead of teaching them a lesson, they would teach us a lesson instead. How? Punish abusers as far back as the increase in chat bans caused by the protest, then go back to the status quo.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
*snip* Sorry, but it's a chat ban. It doesn't matter. *snip*
...to YOU.
I get what you're trying to say, but just because it doesn't bother you personally and its not something as serious as your grandma dying it doesn't mean that it won't bother or affect someone else. The ability to chat can be a really important feature in a MMO. Not being able to chat can significantly reduce your experience of the game and even prevent you from doing the things you actually want to do in it, particularly if you normally play/team with friends, like to duel (you may sometimes have to chat with people if you're dueling with them), are an RP'er or frequently run social events, such as costume contests.
Aside from the fact that abusing the system is against the ToS, and that if you partake in this you run the risk of being banned and have any other appropriate action taken against you, I ask again:
Why would anyone take us seriously if we use a system that is broken to prove the point that the system shouldn't be used? It's hypocritical.
Its not just hypocritical (to a certain extend), but outright WRONG to take away the enjoyment of the game from other (random) players by opting to chat ban them in retaliation to the game company for not doing anything about this system.
That being said, I agree with logandarklighter--and have personally believed for a long time--that doing precisely that is the ONLY way to get them to do anything at this point, since they have told us in no uncertain terms that it is "working as intended" and not going away [/the end]. I'm not endorsing such action, and I'm frankly too busy playing other games right now to even bother with this, but it honestly has reach that point.
We could leave or boycott the game and it wouldn't even matter because:
A) Cryptic has demonstrated that they don't really care if long term players leave the game or stop spending their money as long as more people willing to blow their money in gambling scams keep showing up and spending their money. And...
We're a minusclue portion of the population anyway.
Once the company takes that position that they're not going to do ANYTHING about it (period), and that they don't even care if you leave the game or stop financially supporting them as long as others do, abusing the system to make a point is the only thing that has ANY chance of getting them to act. They've already to us they DON'T care.
Also, you know what other thing would be hypocritical? The company banning or taking any sort of harsh disciplinary action against the account of any player that chat bans others to prove a point, after they (the company) has explicitly told us that the system is "working as intented". If its really working as intended, then how can it even be exploited or abused by any means?
Unfortunately, I think that the only "right" thing to do at this point would be to simply leave the game and take our money with us, and not endorse any Cryptic products in the future. That way at least your karma will remain intact. But like I said I don't think that doing that will have any bearing on this issue either--the company doesn't care if we leave the game, only that (other) people still give them their money. All I think that voting with our wallets will accomplish in this is to eventually cause the game to (very slowly) die as its population wanes. Then the company will simply pull the plug on it considering a "loss" as a whole without ever considering their part in making a game with so much potential in it a failure.
Its not just hypocritical (to a certain extend), but outright WRONG to take away the enjoyment of the game from other (random) players by opting to chat ban them in retaliation to the game company for not doing anything about this system.
That being said, I agree with logandarklighter--and have personally believed for a long time--that doing precisely that is the ONLY way to get them to do anything at this point, since they have told us in no uncertain terms that it is "working as intended" and not going away [/the end]. I'm not endorsing such action, and I'm frankly too busy playing other games right now to even bother with this, but it honestly has reach that point.
We could leave or boycott the game and it wouldn't even matter because:
A) Cryptic has demonstrated that they don't really care if long term players leave the game or stop spending their money as long as more people willing to blow their money in gambling scams keep showing up and spending their money. And...
We're a minusclue portion of the population anyway.
Once the company takes that position that they're not going to do ANYTHING about it (period), and that they don't even care if you leave the game or stop financially supporting them as long as others do, abusing the system to make a point is the only thing that has ANY chance of getting them to act. They've already to us they DON'T care.
Also, you know what other thing would be hypocritical? The company banning or taking any sort of harsh disciplinary action against the account of any player that chat bans others to prove a point, after they (the company) has explicitly told us that the system is "working as intented". If its really working as intended, then how can it even be exploited or abused by any means?
Unfortunately, I think that the only "right" thing to do at this point would be to simply leave the game and take our money with us, and not endorse any Cryptic products in the future. That way at least your karma will remain intact. But like I said I don't think that doing that will have any bearing on this issue either--the company doesn't care if we leave the game, only that (other) people still give them their money. All I think that voting with our wallets will accomplish in this is to eventually cause the game to (very slowly) die as its population wanes. Then the company will simply pull the plug on it considering a "loss" as a whole without ever considering their part in making a game with so much potential in it a failure.
lol visionstrom, i'm sure you're well aware that I believe it's wrong. My point of hypocrisy was just a subpoint in reply to logan.
In response to the underlined point that the system is "working as intended" and how it can be exploited or abused are not mutually exclusive events, I think Cryptic/PWE are well aware of that. I think that just because they believe the system is working as intended, doesn't mean it can't be abused and that said abuses are not significant enough to warrant change. As for their stance on employee integrity? To hell with it. They banned whole portions of multiple countries for economic reasons instead of dealing with the real issue. It's obvious the majority of both companies are in this for themselves.
Does that mean we should refuse to play? That's up to whoever is reading. I personally find the pros of this game outweigh the cons, even if it's a narrow win. Granted I've stopped giving them any $ until the problem is patched or fixed, but that's the last major strike I can perform to show my displeasure with the product, and desire to change it. There's nothing I can do in the mean time except push awareness of the issue on the boards, incessantly complain to the staff, and inspire others to do the same.
I get what you're trying to say, but just because it doesn't bother you personally and its not something as serious as your grandma dying it doesn't mean that it won't bother or affect someone else. The ability to chat can be a really important feature in a MMO. Not being able to chat can significantly reduce your experience of the game and even prevent you from doing the things you actually want to do in it, particularly if you normally play/team with friends, like to duel (you may sometimes have to chat with people if you're dueling with them), are an RP'er or frequently run social events, such as costume contests.
Trust me, I understand all the implications that come from being chat banned. I wasn't able to tell my pals that were sending me messages that I couldn't talk, and that was kinda lame. I know that a player-run chat ban system is the most ridiculous, redundant stupid system that can be put in place and I'm 100% against it. But, we really all just have to deal with it. Find a way to avoid the system, or face the consequences.
I'm all for people bringing it up like clockwork, in the small chance that Cryptic might change their minds or something, but until that happens, I'm just going to be realistic about the situation.
With respect Smacky, when I'm told, "The solution is simple, don't make yourself a target for griefing." I interpret that has being told how to act. If you interpret that differently then, well I'm concerned but we'll agree to disagree.
I don't see why it's cause for your concern, but, okay. I just took it as a simple statement, not an order - and a statement that is mostly just true.
I know people who have never been chat banned. You know how they've managed that? They simply don't ever, ever, ever use zone chat. They didn't make themselves targets.
It's the only thing you can really do as long as this system is in place.
I know people who have never been chat banned. You know how they've managed that? They simply don't ever, ever, ever use zone chat. They didn't make themselves targets.
It's the only thing you can really do as long as this system is in place.
Maybe. But I refuse to give those who harass me the satisfaction that they were able to silence me, which would reinforce their behavior in their minds as ok.
I'm still going to host contests, talk with friends, play the game. And I'm going to do this with or without help from these apathetic egotistical jerks that run this portion of the game.
TENANT: "Sir, I believe something is wrong with the apartment I am renting. Every time I open my curtains to enjoy the view, someone decides they don't want that and they spray paint the glass so I can't see until the rain washes it away."
LANDLORD: "Well here, we have decided that since some people walked around naked with the curtains open that neighbors can paint over the windows if they see something like that."
TENANT: "Why not, you know... report it to the landlord/manager office? And if it's bad, can't people just... you know, not go looking in windows?"
LANDLORD: "Sir, our policy is working as intended. Perhaps you should not walk around naked with the curtains open."
TENANT: "But, I wasn't. I just want to look out my window."
LANDLORD: "We put it in the lease agreement, so there's no undoing this. My advice to you is to not use windows, ever. Put boards over them and pretend they aren't there. Yes, that's it. Even though we have these windows for you, it's easier for me to say 'don't do that, because I don't want to re-write the contracts'."
TENANT: "Right... sir, I think I'll be moving out. There's a place on Southbird street..."
LANDLORD: "Oh, don't go there. My friend got stabbed in his front yard there. We called the cops and they told us just to not go there if we don't want to get killed. They said the people are working as intended, because knives are legal in this city and it's too hard to have a patrol car go down the road and make arrests."
I know people who have never been chat banned. You know how they've managed that? They simply don't ever, ever, ever use zone chat. They didn't make themselves targets.
Um, I've never been chat-banned, and I use the system regularly. I crack jokes, I chatter more-or-less IC with Lee Tosi, I've even been known to mock people every once in a while. To the best of my knowledge, I've been Ignored once, and that was by someone who took offense to my style here in the forums (although he apparently followed that up by Ignoring several other people, because they didn't agree with him about a fairly trivial matter).
I don't know what magic has thus far saved me from chat-banning; Turing knows I've made no attempt to be any more inoffensive than is in my nature. In fact, when I'm being Short Circuit, I'm often a bit more abrasive than is my wont, because that's the kind of guy he is. (Just as Dork Knight is a tad random, and Happifun Security System X-4 is fairly emotionless.) But it certainly has nothing to do with "just not using chat..."
(And now I will doubtless log into the game and find myself chat-banned, because someone took it as a challenge. )
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Um, I've never been chat-banned, and I use the system regularly. I crack jokes, I chatter more-or-less IC with Lee Tosi, I've even been known to mock people every once in a while. To the best of my knowledge, I've been Ignored once, and that was by someone who took offense to my style here in the forums (although he apparently followed that up by Ignoring several other people, because they didn't agree with him about a fairly trivial matter).
I don't know what magic has thus far saved me from chat-banning; Turing knows I've made no attempt to be any more inoffensive than is in my nature. In fact, when I'm being Short Circuit, I'm often a bit more abrasive than is my wont, because that's the kind of guy he is. (Just as Dork Knight is a tad random, and Happifun Security System X-4 is fairly emotionless.) But it certainly has nothing to do with "just not using chat..."
(And now I will doubtless log into the game and find myself chat-banned, because someone took it as a challenge. )
^
Additionally, some people never "make themselves a target" by never using zone chat, yet they've gotten themselves chat banned by RPing in local and others not liking their in-character chat. Some (smackwell for example) have even been banned while they were offline. The absolute, only way to not "make yourself a target" is to never, ever chat--at all (or even post with your in-game @handle in the forums). At which point you might as well be chat banned all the time...
Maybe. But I refuse to give those who harass me the satisfaction that they were able to silence me, which would reinforce their behavior in their minds as ok.
I'm still going to host contests, talk with friends, play the game. And I'm going to do this with or without help from these apathetic egotistical jerks that run this portion of the game.
You speak to kindly about the people that created this system I would have used stronger words than jerks.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Maybe. But I refuse to give those who harass me the satisfaction that they were able to silence me, which would reinforce their behavior in their minds as ok.
I'm still going to host contests, talk with friends, play the game. And I'm going to do this with or without help from these apathetic egotistical jerks that run this portion of the game.
As is your right to do so, and I'm on your side 100% of the way.
Um, I've never been chat-banned, and I use the system regularly. I crack jokes, I chatter more-or-less IC with Lee Tosi, I've even been known to mock people every once in a while. To the best of my knowledge, I've been Ignored once, and that was by someone who took offense to my style here in the forums (although he apparently followed that up by Ignoring several other people, because they didn't agree with him about a fairly trivial matter).
I don't know what magic has thus far saved me from chat-banning; Turing knows I've made no attempt to be any more inoffensive than is in my nature. In fact, when I'm being Short Circuit, I'm often a bit more abrasive than is my wont, because that's the kind of guy he is. (Just as Dork Knight is a tad random, and Happifun Security System X-4 is fairly emotionless.) But it certainly has nothing to do with "just not using chat..."
(And now I will doubtless log into the game and find myself chat-banned, because someone took it as a challenge. )
Yes, I never said that if you talk in Zone, you're 100% guaranteed to get chat banned. I just offered my opinion that not talking in it will reduce your chance of getting banned.
I do also know people who haven't been chat banned ever even though they use zone. Doesn't diminish the fact that staying off it will reduce your chance greatly.
Additionally, some people never "make themselves a target" by never using zone chat, yet they've gotten themselves chat banned by RPing in local and others not liking their in-character chat. Some (smackwell for example) have even been banned while they were offline. The absolute, only way to not "make yourself a target" is to never, ever chat--at all (or even post with your in-game @handle in the forums). At which point you might as well be chat banned all the time...
So yeah, stop acting slutty and asking for it in zone chat for your well deserved chat ban, you deviants!! :rolleyes:
Of course this is a "joke", poor taste and maybe baddly executed, but a joke no less.
Those who are reasonable know the system has been broken. I've somehow managed to never get squelched but it's pretty apparent that the system can easily be abused.
Hearing about folks getting punished without even being on isn't a rare occurrence - that should say it all.
You guys remember when 'ignoring' someone meant just, you know, not giving a damn what they said and moving on with your life?
Spamming, on the other hand... that's worth silencing someone over.
If they can't fix the system by eliminating this feature, then they should increase the number of hits it takes to make one silenced, and then lower the time. 24 hours for a small trio/quartet of trolls is silly.
I know people who have never been chat banned. You know how they've managed that? They simply don't ever, ever, ever use zone chat. They didn't make themselves targets.
Then why have zone chat in the first place? Really?
If it's known, for a fact, that one of your systems is hopelessly broken and being subverted for use as a griefing tool, why the hell are we even discussing this?
But your advice is to just "try to avoid those bullies"?
It's the only thing you can really do as long as this system is in place.
This is, well, why people are asking for the system to be deprecated in the first place.
Telling them "Well just don't do that" is just plain disingenuous.
Howsabout I just drop a blanket "Hell no" on that and then Cryptic/PWE can get around to fixing this ridiculous situation.
Know why this chat system doesn't bother me much? Because it's a game, and it doesn't matter that much to me.
Yeah. Sorry. Wrong answer there Biff.
You have people in a social passtime, one that pretty much REQUIRES them to be able to communicate to play together.
One some of them are actually paying your company REAL FRICKING MONEY to play.
You've been alerted that you have a situation where people are being griefed using a broken "feature" in your product.
Going "Oh well! It's just a game!" at them?
I'm going to self-moderate myself because what I'd actually need to say to get my point across about how bad and stupid a cop-out your argument is would get me banned from the forum.
Every time this issue comes up, I have always been against it. I've always supported people speaking out against it. The system is dumb, no doubt about it.
But according to you, it's not a Big Deal because "it's just a game".
So, evidently, you're "against it". Kinda-sorta, but not really.
Was I making excuses for the system? Absolutely not. Neural made a point. The only way to avoid being chat banned is to not chat. Forutne took it the wrong way, and I simply explained what he was trying to say. There wasn't even any opinion in my part of the post, I was just reiterating his point. The only reason I took the time to reiterate the point is because we've heard time and again that the system is what it is, and it's not going to change (we got a little tidbit about "we'll look into making a special case for Champs" but that was forever o'clock ago). Yes, absolutely, the system sucks, but, at this point, with what we know about it, you're simply gonna have to man up and deal with not being able to chat in a game for 24 hours. If you can't handle that, don't make yourself a target.
Thank you for finally admitting that Cryptic's games are, essentially, on life support and not getting any actual support in the future, and that you've settled back into just selling crap in the online store.
It's nice to know where we stand. And it makes decisions about actually giving you guys any kind of real monetary investment QUITE simple.
Setting budget to $0.00.
I did get on the forums and made a post about the chat ban, but I took it in stride, with a bit of humor. Sorry, but it's a chat ban. It doesn't matter. My car wasn't stolen, my grandma didn't die, my bank information wasn't stolen. I got a chat ban.
Yeah. It's not like you were actually teaming with anyone.
Or trying to run an in-game event.
Or just trying to talk to friends in-game about anything.
And before you start calling me out about abuse, I have also been chat banned when I wasn't even playing the game, or logged in for that matter. Again, I did make a post, but it was like "Har har I got banned again!" No rage, no negative emotion, just hey, look what happened! At the time, we didn't know the system was concrete and couldn't/wouldn't be changed, so the more posts about it, the better, I thought.
But you're a PWE employee and probably compensated for your account.
On top of that you probably have access to secondary accounts if you need to make yourself heard or have access to someone that could, conceivably, lift the ban.
You have people in a social passtime, one that pretty much REQUIRES them to be able to communicate to play together.
One some of them are actually paying your company REAL FRICKING MONEY to play.
You've been alerted that you have a situation where people are being griefed using a broken "feature" in your product.
Going "Oh well! It's just a game!" at them?
I'm going to self-moderate myself because what I'd actually need to say to get my point across about how bad and stupid a cop-out your argument is would get me banned from the forum.
But according to you, it's not a Big Deal because "it's just a game".
So, evidently, you're "against it". Kinda-sorta, but not really.
Thank you for finally admitting that Cryptic's games are, essentially, on life support and not getting any actual support in the future, and that you've settled back into just selling crap in the online store.
It's nice to know where we stand. And it makes decisions about actually giving you guys any kind of real monetary investment QUITE simple.
Setting budget to $0.00.
Yeah. It's not like you were actually teaming with anyone.
Or trying to run an in-game event.
Or just trying to talk to friends in-game about anything.
But you're a PWE employee and probably compensated for your account.
On top of that you probably have access to secondary accounts if you need to make yourself heard or have access to someone that could, conceivably, lift the ban.
YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS DON'T.
Just for clarification, biffsmackwell is NOT a Cryptic employee. He is only a community volunteer that helps fulfill moderator functions--the "community" portion of his title meaning that he is a member of this community (i.e. a forum poster). He is not affiliated to the company in any way, but merely helps moderate these forums, given the limited (payed) personel Cryptic is able to devote to this function (which should give you an idea why this horrible system is still in place in-game--they don't have official in-game moderators either).
For what its worth I don't think that he holds ill will in this and has been a victim of this system himself, but is merely giving his opinion as member of this community. And as far as I know, doesn't even get a discount in game purchases for fulfilling this job.
As the others have pointed out, I'm not an employee, just a volunteer from the community. And by volunteer, I mean that I get absolutely nothing in return for what I do here. No pay, no in-game bonuses, nothing at all. Only thing different between you and I is that I can edit out peoples' posts if they're being naughty.
My opinions are that of a player who has no more leverage on the system and its creators than you do. I think the chat ban system is crappy, and shouldn't be there at all (seriously, putting someone on ignore is enough - basically to the person who did the ignoring, the other player is effectively chat-banned anyway), but, it's there, we've lobbied for it to get removed or just changed ever since the Free For All patch went live, and we've gotten nothing out of it. It might seem to you that I've got a crappy attitude about it, but I'm just a player who has "learned to deal with it."
As the others have pointed out, I'm not an employee, just a volunteer from the community. And by volunteer, I mean that I get absolutely nothing in return for what I do here. No pay, no in-game bonuses, nothing at all. Only thing different between you and I is that I can edit out peoples' posts if they're being naughty.
My opinions are that of a player who has no more leverage on the system and its creators than you do. I think the chat ban system is crappy, and shouldn't be there at all (seriously, putting someone on ignore is enough - basically to the person who did the ignoring, the other player is effectively chat-banned anyway), but, it's there, we've lobbied for it to get removed or just changed ever since the Free For All patch went live, and we've gotten nothing out of it. It might seem to you that I've got a crappy attitude about it, but I'm just a player who has "learned to deal with it."
I am also a long-timer in the game, and a long-time opponent of this "feature." I've also learned to live with it -- I don't use zone chat at all, where I used to answer questions all the time. I'd also like to use "ignore," but won't because I know the effect it can have. Mostly I just use the "manual" ignore of not paying attention to the chat panel, which means I do miss actual messages meant for me.
I can see Smacky's attitude. I an understand why he has it, it's a sort of stay-sane approach. Me? I still shake my lance at the windmill that is Cryptic/PW, but that's my way of dealing.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
No, it is actually the correct answer. You don't, nor does anyone else, get to determine what bothers him. Note that he didn't say that no one else should be bothered. He stated that it doesn't matter much to him. Are you the thought police, empowered with the authority to determine what people are required to be bothered by ?
Know why this chat system doesn't bother me much? Because it's a game, and it doesn't matter that much to me.
You have people in a social passtime, one that pretty much REQUIRES them to be able to communicate to play together.
"Pretty much requires," is kind of a stretch in a game where teamwork is not particularly important to success in the vast majority of the game.
One some of them are actually paying your company REAL FRICKING MONEY to play.
You've been alerted that you have a situation where people are being griefed using a broken "feature" in your product.
His product ? You think that Smackwell, another player who pays for the game the same as you do, is the CEO or PWE or Cryptic ?
Going "Oh well! It's just a game!" at them?
He didn't say that. He said that it doesn't bother him but that he 100% supports those for whom it is a matter of significance. He has been supporting those adversely affected by chatbans for longer than you have been around (as near as I can tell).
I'm going to self-moderate myself because what I'd actually need to say to get my point across about how bad and stupid a cop-out your argument is would get me banned from the forum.
He made an accurate and honest statement about how the chatban system doesn't bother him but that he knows it does affect/bother others and fully supports their concerns on the matter. Being honest and supporting other members of the community is a cop-out to you ? Sounds like it wouldnt be much of a loss if you did get yourself banned.
But according to you, it's not a Big Deal because "it's just a game".
Not quite what he said, but you go ahead and twist what was said to support your position I guess.
So, evidently, you're "against it". Kinda-sorta, but not really.
Again, not what he said, but you go right on ahead and twist his words I guess.
Thank you for finally admitting that Cryptic's games are, essentially, on life support and not getting any actual support in the future, and that you've settled back into just selling crap in the online store.
It's nice to know where we stand. And it makes decisions about actually giving you guys any kind of real monetary investment QUITE simple.
Setting budget to $0.00.
What the heck are you talking about ? Do you even know ? Smackwell is a player. He doesn't sell you anything. You are not giving him money.
Yeah. It's not like you were actually teaming with anyone.
Or trying to run an in-game event.
Or just trying to talk to friends in-game about anything.
But you're a PWE employee and probably compensated for your account.
On top of that you probably have access to secondary accounts if you need to make yourself heard or have access to someone that could, conceivably, lift the ban.
YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS DON'T.
Ok, it has become apparent that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here. He isnt a PW employee. He has been banned on more than one occasion in the past and did NOT have any more ability to lift the ban than either you or I would.
A friend of mine logged in for the first time in a couple of days today to find herself chat banned- UPON LOGGING IN. When is this going to stop?
Clearly your friend "had it coming" and this system is working 100% as intended with no discernible bugs or issues causing it to chat ban people for no apparent reason at random :rolleyes:
Just be glad your not in star trek online that place is full of immature goons and cyber bullies who reffer themselves as dentist and wesleys I know a friend of mine who made a anti cyber bully blog (her name was Aiko ) and these cyber bullies hacked her blog,her gmail account and perfect world account and expose her personal life for everyone to see and they have one of them claim he's her which that's not true . ( freeofdental.blogspot.com was the victim site )
Those peers were never asked if they thought this person deserved a chat ban. When you ignore someone, it doesn't give you that choice, it simply assumes that you agree. To say this was the judgement of anyone other than the people responsible for the systems implementation is naive.
You see, I have the opposite problem: I'm afraid to put people on ignore. I'm not so full of myself to think that just because I don't want to see what someone is typing means they shouldn't be allowed to speak with their own friends, guild mates, and the people participating in the events they might have planned to host that day.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Comments
Once a day or once a month.
If you put someone on ignore, there should be exactly ZERO legitimate reason to need to ever put them on ignore again.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
So, like prison ****, we should just lay there and try to enjoy it? Right?
Howabout NO?
Heck, I'll go you one better.
Howabout HELL NO?
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Frankly I think that says more about the competence of the dev/QA team (or more likely their management) and their level/degree of dedication to this game than it does about what we as paying costumers should expect from a product.
It depends on what's easier to add for the programmers without breaking the system, whether it's a new buffer with a 20 minute timer for ignore handles, or a new field for ignores that includes the time the ignore took place. If the latter works better, then setting a day as the time limit should do the trick.
Absolutely. The safest way to do this is to not use zone chat, at all. So, the workaround is to either use with circumspection or not use at all one of the game's features. Oh, let's add, if you don't want to be part of the problem, don't use the ignore feature. So, another system that is impacted.
Yes, they won't do anything about it. I accept that. Maybe I like tilting at windmills. All things considered, the system is not good customer service.
Yes, I know, I used good customer service in a discussion about Cryptic Studios. Sorry.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
I don't think he's telling you how to act. He's just saying what the only way to avoid this system is.
Like he said, it is what it is. And it's not likely to change. There's nothing wrong with announcing a costume contest, at all, but: if you do not want to get chat banned, your only recourse is to "not make yourself a target" by not using zone chat. Or any public chat, for that matter.
Is that a good thing? No, no at all. But it's the only thing that'll work.
Well, as far as announcements go, you could always make an alt account for that. But yeah. Unfortunately, it is what it is.
Put everyone you see talking anywhere at any time on ignore. Once there are entire channels of players getting chat banned for no reason other than that they can be, we'll find out if anyone cares.
After all, you won't even be doing anything wrong. You're not technically abusing the system. You're not abusing a glitch or exploiting a programming loophole. You're just putting people on ignore, something you have a right to do as much as you please.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Yew missed mah point U_U"
I AM saying they dont know how to program
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
So in all probably 1-5% of the population could even be expected to post here. That means that the number of people who actually don't like the system is MUCH MUCH larger than represented. Also I think we've had more people show up in disfavor of the system than in favor of it. So there again.
All that aside I may go back to using Zone again. Might just find me a way to fight back each and every time this system is abused against me in the future. And so far both times it's happened I've had a good idea where the attack came from. Maybe if there are consequences to their actions, maybe if they have to taste their own medicine, MAYBE if someone makes the griefers accountable for their actions, then just maybe they'll lay off it in the future.
Sometimes you have to work within the system in order to fight it. Regardless of whether I choose to return to zone chat or not, I refuse to be bullied in chat any longer with impunity.
There will be consequences, at least for some.
We want the player-based chat ban system removed and fixed because we do not like how it's being abused and used against us. What merit do we have, if we abuse the same system we're fighting so hard against? Revenge does not work and I refuse to use the Report Spam function solely for this purpose.
I will use the ignore function though; if asking some player who feels the need to be the center of attention to, "please stop" doesn't work, and communication is vital via the channels I admin for or the contest I'm running, then I will ignore them.
Other players shouldn't have to suffer because I can't do my job in the game. This and ONLY this, is the reason I would ever use the ignore function.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
There was a period of time where I was queuing for PvP on a regular basis (a point in time when this was worthwhile). While so queued, and hanging around in MC I might put someone on ignore due to the nature of their use of zone chat. This was before I learned that ignoring someone could cause them to be chat banned.
When the PvP queue popped I would generally remove anyone I had just added from my ignore list so as to avoid any possible situation where I could not communicate with a teammate (or opponent for that matter) in the match.
Upon finishing the match, and returning to MC, I might very well end up adding the same individual(s) back to my ignore list (for the same reason they were added in the first place).
I don't follow this practice any more for the simple reason that I don't think that someone should be banned from a part of the game because I am uninterested in their view of who would win in a battle between the Hulk and Superman.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
*swoons* Oh noes! He found my only weakness... That I just paid once 300 bucks and no way to show if I put more money per month in this game...
Woe is meeeeeh...
*faints*
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
Amen brotha!
There's a difference between looking for a fight and communicating freely. To some extent the internet runs on the ol' adage of "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen" (which goes both ways), but this is too far and is unacceptable.
You can rationalize this away Biffsmackwell, but when it happens to you or one of your friends who you KNOW wasn't doing anything remotely justified to deserve that. Or some supergroup decides to gang up on somebody and keep them muted on multiple days (which HAS happened in the past and will continue as long as people don't get a long and bullying exists, which WILL always happen in social settings). Then you'll start to see what an atrocity is and you won't be making such foolish excuses for a broken (in)justice system.
Think what you will, only a fool or one intended to abuse it would support such a system.
I agree, and QFT!
/me pats you
I'll be ok :biggrin:
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Nah not your ONLY weakness.
*waves catnip*
:biggrin:
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
My reaction, let me show it to you!
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
Thank you Biff. This is exactly what I'm trying to say. Being an experienced IT professional, I have a bit of insight into the software development process and I'm just saying why it's not going to change. But of course, people always like to shoot the messenger.
Like all advice, take it or leave it... the choice is yours. But continually raging at the machine is unproductive.
Btw, where did you guys get the idea you had rights? Didn't you read the EULA?
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
Then why are you still playing this game? By doing so you support the system. :eek:
Heh I would have thought you'd support this system by putting scammers such as @XxXxXxX_Boy (not his real handle but we both know what it is) out of business.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
Throwing aside your misunderstanding of the nature of statistics (the girl wore a dress and was mugged, therefore girls shouldn't wear dresses. I announced a costume contest and got muted, therefore I should never host costume contests), what would you recommend xeyare, and the dozens of others being unfairly treated by this system do? If you have a good idea that we haven't already tried, then please share. I'm up for anything productive.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
I'm beginning to wonder if this above - as distasteful as it is - is the only thing that has any chance at all of getting a response, given that we've tried literally every other polite measure and been ignored.
What do you suppose the critical mass has to be of chat-banned and annoyed people before Crpytic gets off it's **** and does something? 1/8th the total online population at a given time? 1/4th? Half?
Does the entire current population of Champions players have to be chat-banned and angry about it before Cryptic does something?
Will ANYTHING get them to move?
Actually they have given us a response. We have been told that the system is working as intended and is not going away.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Ha, you think I'm a fool because I don't understand the system? No, you're not even close. I understand it completely. I'm not rationalizing anything. I actually think of myself as a rational person. Know why this chat system doesn't bother me much? Because it's a game, and it doesn't matter that much to me.
Every time this issue comes up, I have always been against it. I've always supported people speaking out against it. The system is dumb, no doubt about it.
Was I making excuses for the system? Absolutely not. Neural made a point. The only way to avoid being chat banned is to not chat. Forutne took it the wrong way, and I simply explained what he was trying to say. There wasn't even any opinion in my part of the post, I was just reiterating his point. The only reason I took the time to reiterate the point is because we've heard time and again that the system is what it is, and it's not going to change (we got a little tidbit about "we'll look into making a special case for Champs" but that was forever o'clock ago). Yes, absolutely, the system sucks, but, at this point, with what we know about it, you're simply gonna have to man up and deal with not being able to chat in a game for 24 hours. If you can't handle that, don't make yourself a target.
So, try reading a little better next time, and watch who you go calling a fool, or you just might end up looking like one yourself.
PS - I have been chat banned in the past. My first time, as jon has pointed out, it was the first thing I'd said in chat all night ("Wolverine sucks." (not even an exclamation point!)). I'd been out farming level 11 Dark Speeds that night, solo, so I was in Resistance most of the time. When I was done, some people were talking about Wolverine, I said the line, and I was chat-banned instantly. Mind, this was at a time before I or anyone else knew how the system worked. I thought it was instant, but we all know now that it wasn't.
I did get on the forums and made a post about the chat ban, but I took it in stride, with a bit of humor. Sorry, but it's a chat ban. It doesn't matter. My car wasn't stolen, my grandma didn't die, my bank information wasn't stolen. I got a chat ban.
And before you start calling me out about abuse, I have also been chat banned when I wasn't even playing the game, or logged in for that matter. Again, I did make a post, but it was like "Har har I got banned again!" No rage, no negative emotion, just hey, look what happened! At the time, we didn't know the system was concrete and couldn't/wouldn't be changed, so the more posts about it, the better, I thought.
When we did find out how the system works, it was a lot more clear to me why I got the ban. I like to bother people, so it's no surprise to me that I have "enemies" (something I find ridiculously hilarious as well) who will try to silence me in the game. Hell, there's people who don't like me just because I'm a moderator with like zero power on the forum. It's like the twilight zone.
PPS - I'm not even mad at you for helping to put a chat ban on me! You put me on ignore once in-game for saying Teleport was broken. :P
Aside from the fact that abusing the system is against the ToS, and that if you partake in this you run the risk of being banned and have any other appropriate action taken against you, I ask again:
Why would anyone take us seriously if we use a system that is broken to prove the point that the system shouldn't be used? It's hypocritical.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
I am also against further abuse of the system to make a point. As tempting as it is to think that management might actually acknowledge the problem, it is not a good idea to use a system if you believe it is wrong. Also, I am not inclined to negatively impact anyone's gameplay.
Also, what would probably happen is that instead of teaching them a lesson, they would teach us a lesson instead. How? Punish abusers as far back as the increase in chat bans caused by the protest, then go back to the status quo.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
...to YOU.
I get what you're trying to say, but just because it doesn't bother you personally and its not something as serious as your grandma dying it doesn't mean that it won't bother or affect someone else. The ability to chat can be a really important feature in a MMO. Not being able to chat can significantly reduce your experience of the game and even prevent you from doing the things you actually want to do in it, particularly if you normally play/team with friends, like to duel (you may sometimes have to chat with people if you're dueling with them), are an RP'er or frequently run social events, such as costume contests.
Its not just hypocritical (to a certain extend), but outright WRONG to take away the enjoyment of the game from other (random) players by opting to chat ban them in retaliation to the game company for not doing anything about this system.
That being said, I agree with logandarklighter--and have personally believed for a long time--that doing precisely that is the ONLY way to get them to do anything at this point, since they have told us in no uncertain terms that it is "working as intended" and not going away [/the end]. I'm not endorsing such action, and I'm frankly too busy playing other games right now to even bother with this, but it honestly has reach that point.
We could leave or boycott the game and it wouldn't even matter because:
A) Cryptic has demonstrated that they don't really care if long term players leave the game or stop spending their money as long as more people willing to blow their money in gambling scams keep showing up and spending their money. And...
Once the company takes that position that they're not going to do ANYTHING about it (period), and that they don't even care if you leave the game or stop financially supporting them as long as others do, abusing the system to make a point is the only thing that has ANY chance of getting them to act. They've already to us they DON'T care.
Also, you know what other thing would be hypocritical? The company banning or taking any sort of harsh disciplinary action against the account of any player that chat bans others to prove a point, after they (the company) has explicitly told us that the system is "working as intented". If its really working as intended, then how can it even be exploited or abused by any means?
Unfortunately, I think that the only "right" thing to do at this point would be to simply leave the game and take our money with us, and not endorse any Cryptic products in the future. That way at least your karma will remain intact. But like I said I don't think that doing that will have any bearing on this issue either--the company doesn't care if we leave the game, only that (other) people still give them their money. All I think that voting with our wallets will accomplish in this is to eventually cause the game to (very slowly) die as its population wanes. Then the company will simply pull the plug on it considering a "loss" as a whole without ever considering their part in making a game with so much potential in it a failure.
I can think of two things that would.
Neither are likely to happen. And, so, thereby ...
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
In response to the underlined point that the system is "working as intended" and how it can be exploited or abused are not mutually exclusive events, I think Cryptic/PWE are well aware of that. I think that just because they believe the system is working as intended, doesn't mean it can't be abused and that said abuses are not significant enough to warrant change. As for their stance on employee integrity? To hell with it. They banned whole portions of multiple countries for economic reasons instead of dealing with the real issue. It's obvious the majority of both companies are in this for themselves.
Does that mean we should refuse to play? That's up to whoever is reading. I personally find the pros of this game outweigh the cons, even if it's a narrow win. Granted I've stopped giving them any $ until the problem is patched or fixed, but that's the last major strike I can perform to show my displeasure with the product, and desire to change it. There's nothing I can do in the mean time except push awareness of the issue on the boards, incessantly complain to the staff, and inspire others to do the same.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
Trust me, I understand all the implications that come from being chat banned. I wasn't able to tell my pals that were sending me messages that I couldn't talk, and that was kinda lame. I know that a player-run chat ban system is the most ridiculous, redundant stupid system that can be put in place and I'm 100% against it. But, we really all just have to deal with it. Find a way to avoid the system, or face the consequences.
I'm all for people bringing it up like clockwork, in the small chance that Cryptic might change their minds or something, but until that happens, I'm just going to be realistic about the situation.
I don't see why it's cause for your concern, but, okay. I just took it as a simple statement, not an order - and a statement that is mostly just true.
I know people who have never been chat banned. You know how they've managed that? They simply don't ever, ever, ever use zone chat. They didn't make themselves targets.
It's the only thing you can really do as long as this system is in place.
I'm still going to host contests, talk with friends, play the game. And I'm going to do this with or without help from these apathetic egotistical jerks that run this portion of the game.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
TENANT: "Sir, I believe something is wrong with the apartment I am renting. Every time I open my curtains to enjoy the view, someone decides they don't want that and they spray paint the glass so I can't see until the rain washes it away."
LANDLORD: "Well here, we have decided that since some people walked around naked with the curtains open that neighbors can paint over the windows if they see something like that."
TENANT: "Why not, you know... report it to the landlord/manager office? And if it's bad, can't people just... you know, not go looking in windows?"
LANDLORD: "Sir, our policy is working as intended. Perhaps you should not walk around naked with the curtains open."
TENANT: "But, I wasn't. I just want to look out my window."
LANDLORD: "We put it in the lease agreement, so there's no undoing this. My advice to you is to not use windows, ever. Put boards over them and pretend they aren't there. Yes, that's it. Even though we have these windows for you, it's easier for me to say 'don't do that, because I don't want to re-write the contracts'."
TENANT: "Right... sir, I think I'll be moving out. There's a place on Southbird street..."
LANDLORD: "Oh, don't go there. My friend got stabbed in his front yard there. We called the cops and they told us just to not go there if we don't want to get killed. They said the people are working as intended, because knives are legal in this city and it's too hard to have a patrol car go down the road and make arrests."
I don't know what magic has thus far saved me from chat-banning; Turing knows I've made no attempt to be any more inoffensive than is in my nature. In fact, when I'm being Short Circuit, I'm often a bit more abrasive than is my wont, because that's the kind of guy he is. (Just as Dork Knight is a tad random, and Happifun Security System X-4 is fairly emotionless.) But it certainly has nothing to do with "just not using chat..."
(And now I will doubtless log into the game and find myself chat-banned, because someone took it as a challenge.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
^
Additionally, some people never "make themselves a target" by never using zone chat, yet they've gotten themselves chat banned by RPing in local and others not liking their in-character chat. Some (smackwell for example) have even been banned while they were offline. The absolute, only way to not "make yourself a target" is to never, ever chat--at all (or even post with your in-game @handle in the forums). At which point you might as well be chat banned all the time...
You speak to kindly about the people that created this system I would have used stronger words than jerks.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
As is your right to do so, and I'm on your side 100% of the way.
Yes, I never said that if you talk in Zone, you're 100% guaranteed to get chat banned. I just offered my opinion that not talking in it will reduce your chance of getting banned.
I do also know people who haven't been chat banned ever even though they use zone. Doesn't diminish the fact that staying off it will reduce your chance greatly.
Yep. It's stupid.
Of course this is a "joke", poor taste and maybe baddly executed, but a joke no less.
=^ _ ^= Kitty Lives!
Hearing about folks getting punished without even being on isn't a rare occurrence - that should say it all.
Spamming, on the other hand... that's worth silencing someone over.
If they can't fix the system by eliminating this feature, then they should increase the number of hits it takes to make one silenced, and then lower the time. 24 hours for a small trio/quartet of trolls is silly.
No, clowns are silly. This is freakin' stupid.
Then why have zone chat in the first place? Really?
If it's known, for a fact, that one of your systems is hopelessly broken and being subverted for use as a griefing tool, why the hell are we even discussing this?
But your advice is to just "try to avoid those bullies"?
This is, well, why people are asking for the system to be deprecated in the first place.
Telling them "Well just don't do that" is just plain disingenuous.
Howsabout I just drop a blanket "Hell no" on that and then Cryptic/PWE can get around to fixing this ridiculous situation.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Lots of irrational people do.
Yeah. Sorry. Wrong answer there Biff.
You have people in a social passtime, one that pretty much REQUIRES them to be able to communicate to play together.
One some of them are actually paying your company REAL FRICKING MONEY to play.
You've been alerted that you have a situation where people are being griefed using a broken "feature" in your product.
Going "Oh well! It's just a game!" at them?
I'm going to self-moderate myself because what I'd actually need to say to get my point across about how bad and stupid a cop-out your argument is would get me banned from the forum.
But according to you, it's not a Big Deal because "it's just a game".
So, evidently, you're "against it". Kinda-sorta, but not really.
Thank you for finally admitting that Cryptic's games are, essentially, on life support and not getting any actual support in the future, and that you've settled back into just selling crap in the online store.
It's nice to know where we stand. And it makes decisions about actually giving you guys any kind of real monetary investment QUITE simple.
Setting budget to $0.00.
Yeah. It's not like you were actually teaming with anyone.
Or trying to run an in-game event.
Or just trying to talk to friends in-game about anything.
But you're a PWE employee and probably compensated for your account.
On top of that you probably have access to secondary accounts if you need to make yourself heard or have access to someone that could, conceivably, lift the ban.
YOUR PAYING CUSTOMERS DON'T.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Just for clarification, biffsmackwell is NOT a Cryptic employee. He is only a community volunteer that helps fulfill moderator functions--the "community" portion of his title meaning that he is a member of this community (i.e. a forum poster). He is not affiliated to the company in any way, but merely helps moderate these forums, given the limited (payed) personel Cryptic is able to devote to this function (which should give you an idea why this horrible system is still in place in-game--they don't have official in-game moderators either).
For what its worth I don't think that he holds ill will in this and has been a victim of this system himself, but is merely giving his opinion as member of this community. And as far as I know, doesn't even get a discount in game purchases for fulfilling this job.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
One customer yelling at another customer for the decisions a business they both patronize makes ...
You are aware of how that sounds, yes?
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
As the others have pointed out, I'm not an employee, just a volunteer from the community. And by volunteer, I mean that I get absolutely nothing in return for what I do here. No pay, no in-game bonuses, nothing at all. Only thing different between you and I is that I can edit out peoples' posts if they're being naughty.
My opinions are that of a player who has no more leverage on the system and its creators than you do. I think the chat ban system is crappy, and shouldn't be there at all (seriously, putting someone on ignore is enough - basically to the person who did the ignoring, the other player is effectively chat-banned anyway), but, it's there, we've lobbied for it to get removed or just changed ever since the Free For All patch went live, and we've gotten nothing out of it. It might seem to you that I've got a crappy attitude about it, but I'm just a player who has "learned to deal with it."
I am also a long-timer in the game, and a long-time opponent of this "feature." I've also learned to live with it -- I don't use zone chat at all, where I used to answer questions all the time. I'd also like to use "ignore," but won't because I know the effect it can have. Mostly I just use the "manual" ignore of not paying attention to the chat panel, which means I do miss actual messages meant for me.
I can see Smacky's attitude. I an understand why he has it, it's a sort of stay-sane approach. Me? I still shake my lance at the windmill that is Cryptic/PW, but that's my way of dealing.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Responses to ludicrous statements above.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Clearly your friend "had it coming" and this system is working 100% as intended with no discernible bugs or issues causing it to chat ban people for no apparent reason at random :rolleyes:
Those peers were never asked if they thought this person deserved a chat ban. When you ignore someone, it doesn't give you that choice, it simply assumes that you agree. To say this was the judgement of anyone other than the people responsible for the systems implementation is naive.
You see, I have the opposite problem: I'm afraid to put people on ignore. I'm not so full of myself to think that just because I don't want to see what someone is typing means they shouldn't be allowed to speak with their own friends, guild mates, and the people participating in the events they might have planned to host that day.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.