A Mild-Mannered Reporter: So what's the deal with Champions Online?

2

Comments

  • skyranger1414
    skyranger1414 Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    sparhawk wrote: »
    Kudos to Massively for this article. Whether it has any effect on how CO is being handled ia another matter entirely, as pointed out in this thread already.

    What would be even better would be if anything was said about what this makes people think of the upcoming NWO. Cryptic is a churn MMO company now, even the "best NA performing game" that is STO only manages to keep a playerfor 38 days on average. For a churn player CO seems pretty good and it keeps a drip of cash going Cryptic's way.

    As to why no mention of Cryptic's tendencies to develop a game only to abandon it for its next cash cow was made... I can only assume its the same thing that keeps so many articles as nice and friendly as possible. Fear of getting cut off from future access, economic reality keeps most opinion and game news sites from really speaking out about anything negative for fear of not getting "scoops", exclusives, and interviews, and the negative effect on site hits that would have. To be honest I'm surprised such a frank article was allowed to go up at all.
  • skyranger1414
    skyranger1414 Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    For the most part that game feels like everything Champions wanted to be. The battle mechanic is not this awkward thing where you're holding shift to block and pressing 'e' repeatedly to get out of a hold. Players can make their own missions and, in essence, instances to role-play... etc. Neverwinter is probably going to be fairly profitable because it is a better game fundamentally.

    However, I think they should be careful about tarnishing their brand. Allocating resources based on return may make the most business sense, but disenfranchising your base before a major release isn't good either.

    This encapsulates everything very well. I hear great things about NWO but I'll never touch it and I make sure everyone that I hear has any interest in it knows exactly what kind of company Cryptic is. As someone that has worked in management I also understand that they are definitely making the right business decision from a ROI and minimizing risk standpoint. Fortunately as a customer I don't really care about their ROI and can merrily go out of my way to make sure potential NWO know what's happening.

    How can I understand while simultaneously lambast them you ask? Easy, I understand that the sole reason the guys at the top get paid is to MAKE DECISIONS. And believe me when I say they understand the good and bad outcomes of those decisions, they are terrible at their jobs if they don't. They have decided to let CO twist int the wind and they should expect a similar loss of face to the one experienced by NCsoft. They could've handled things any number of different ways. From hiring cheaper artists/contractors/etc. that get paid less to keep a steady stream of costume packs going to actually investigating what might sell well in CO instead of trying to copy the ship cashcow from STO. A cashcow that can't last forever either, even churn players eventually come into the game knowing to avoid the ship lockboxes and even the whales are startign to balk at more ships with no new content to fly them in...

    Basically they have made a string of BAD DECISIONS, and their rep will suffer for it. They made a conscious choice. Ultimately I don't see them changing course as far as CO is concerned, it'll always have the best character customization system out of all Cryptic's games and that in part will be part of its relative success as a churn game but real content? No, those days are over, I would even say those days are over in STO as well. But they might get out an actual Xpac before giving up the ghost, we'll see.
  • gandales
    gandales Posts: 340 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I've been upset at Cryptic for letting my favorite game seem to languish a bit. But, I'd have to say after playing Neverwinter they are probably making the right choice over-all for them.

    For the most part that game feels like everything Champions wanted to be. The battle mechanic is not this awkward thing where you're holding shift to block and pressing 'e' repeatedly to get out of a hold. Players can make their own missions and, in essence, instances to role-play... etc. Neverwinter is probably going to be fairly profitable because it is a better game fundamentally.

    I would not be too sure. After the beta weekends, I have read a lot of criticism in sites like mmorpg.com about several features of NWO. The character models have disappointed its fair share of fans as well as the perceived lack of customization which is kind of out of Cryptic's ways of development.

    The only thing sure is that PWE is betting hard on NWO, given NWN fans. However, the same as SWTOR's EA, they could be overstatimating their game. This could be their own bane.

    Back to CO, I decided just to play it pretty casually, until I find a superhero game that convince me to switch, once that happen, I most likely move completely out of PWE games. There are some many great games out there, CO is the only thing that keeps me in PWE domains.
  • sistersilicon
    sistersilicon Posts: 1,687 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    That is only conjecture. I am not interested in conjecture.

    Hence my demand for a SoTG from Jack. Based on current trends, I expect his answer to be "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept," but at least we'll know where we stand.
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  • nextnametaken
    nextnametaken Posts: 2,212 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    gandales wrote: »

    The only thing sure is that PWE is betting hard on NWO, given NWN fans. However, the same as SWTOR's EA, they could be overstatimating their game. This could be their own bane.

    This move is studio suicide.
    PWE probably thinks "oh fantasy game we rove fantasy game in Asia", since thats the garbage they dump by the freight ship load on the market.

    The market is going to poop on their heads when they produce another WoW-like just like the market left stinking steaming piles on SWG and TSW for the same reason.

    I hope Cryptic employees learn a lesson from Funcom and start sending out resumes NOW, soon as NWO ships there's likely to be lay offs since they haven't announced any other games from this studio.
  • crypticarmsman
    crypticarmsman Posts: 53 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    What would be even better would be if anything was said about what this makes people think of the upcoming NWO. Cryptic is a churn MMO company now, even the "best NA performing game" that is STO only manages to keep a playerfor 38 days on average..

    Got a source for this claim (not judging one way or the other as to it's validity; but would love to see the basis of this info.)
    Formerly known as Armsman from June 2008 to June 20, 2012
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  • smoochan
    smoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Got a source for this claim (not judging one way or the other as to it's validity; but would love to see the basis of this info.)

    I like how people come to the forums, read a post, and then demand proof of what the post says. You want info, you go get it.

    Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
  • devtracker
    devtracker Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    smoochan wrote: »


    I like how people come to the forums, read a post, and then demand proof of what the post says. You want info, you go get it.

    The burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim, not the person who questions it. If you cant support your own claims, then they are meaningless and should not be factored in to the overall conversation of the thread.
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Oh really? :/ Well, it was wild conjecture. You seem really knowledgeable--does that mean they aren't working on anything else? It's just the three games?

    A "Top Secret Project" is still listed on Cryptic's site, so I really don't know if that's a case of having not updated the site or if they actually did brainstorm something else.
  • roughbearmattach
    roughbearmattach Posts: 4,784 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    devtracker wrote: »
    The burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim, not the person who questions it. If you cant support your own claims, then they are meaningless and should not be factored in to the overall conversation of the thread.


    Nah, the burden of proof lies with the people that care. We're just talking informally here in a forum.
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  • squidheadjax
    squidheadjax Posts: 51 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    devtracker wrote: »
    The burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim, not the person who questions it. If you cant support your own claims, then they are meaningless and should not be factored in to the overall conversation of the thread.

    This.

    I'd like to know, too, especially because that seems like a dreadfully short half-life.
    (Might shut up the people saying lifetimers make the game lose money tho... naaaaah, who am I kidding).
    SQUIRREL!
  • sockmunkey
    sockmunkey Posts: 4,504 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    devtracker wrote: »
    The burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim, not the person who questions it. If you cant support your own claims, then they are meaningless and should not be factored in to the overall conversation of the thread.

    Bah, this is the interwebs. Where you pretty much have to take everything with a grain of salt. Between info either being wrong, misleading, out of context, or simply bold faced lies. The best sources for info will always be whatever the interested party can gather and compile themselves.
  • smoochan
    smoochan Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    devtracker wrote: »
    The burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim, not the person who questions it. If you cant support your own claims, then they are meaningless and should not be factored in to the overall conversation of the thread.

    Hey guess what... each individual person reading the thread is going to decide what they are going to factor into their own opinion of what's being talked about. They don't need you to tell them what they should or shouldn't consider. Furthermore, nobody cares if you don't consider what they say to be valid, because... well... who are you?

    You want the info, go get it yourself. If you're not willing to do that, then you obviously don't care enough about having that information. How can anyone take your demands seriously when the very act of making them proves you don't even care?

    Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
  • jonsills
    jonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    smoochan wrote: »


    Hey guess what... each individual person reading the thread is going to decide what they are going to factor into their own opinion of what's being talked about. They don't need you to tell them what they should or shouldn't consider. Furthermore, nobody cares if you don't consider what they say to be valid, because... well... who are you?

    You want the info, go get it yourself. If you're not willing to do that, then you obviously don't care enough about having that information. How can anyone take your demands seriously when the very act of making them proves you don't even care?
    Well, there's also the fact that sometimes when you do present your evidence, it's dismissed as "mere conjecture"... :biggrin:
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • mensar
    mensar Posts: 294 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    You know.. I told myself I wasn't going to bother writing in here anymore.. but I have to say it.

    If you want to stay, stay.. make suggestions and enjoy the content that is provided.

    If not, leave..

    And that means forum, game, planet. Whatever it takes.

    Very sick of all the whining on here.

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  • takodaten
    takodaten Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    mensar wrote: »
    Very sick of all the whining on here.
    mensar wrote: »
    Too bad I couldn't get my name transferred from Cryptic for the forums. Thanks PWE :) Truly a painless transition, beyond the one in my lower left quad...:frown:

    Yeah, too much whining going on.
  • sigmaseven0
    sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    devtracker wrote: »
    The burden of proof lies with the person who makes the claim, not the person who questions it. If you cant support your own claims, then they are meaningless and should not be factored in to the overall conversation of the thread.

    I generally have to agree.

    One of the things that makes trying to discus things on the internet so exhausting is that people don't feel that they need to be responsible for that they say. What if lawyers expected judges or a jury to agree with them without sighting case law?

    Im not saying that every thing any one says should come with a link (but some statements should) but it would be nice if more people would at least provide some kind of rationale if they are claiming (or implying) to state something other than their subjective feelings.

    Of course this all depends on the tone of each conversation but...
    STO only manages to keep a playerfor 38 days on average.
    Got a source for this claim (not judging one way or the other as to it's validity; but would love to see the basis of this info.)
    Im with crypticarmsmans here. Not questioning skyrangers credibility, just want to know especially because its generally not ez to get this kind of information about MMOs.
    To be fair, I went ahead and did a quick Google search and found no info about STOs player retention numbers. How long should i be expected to root around for this information (assuming it exist)?

    If every one takes responsibility for their own statements, the conversation will go much more smoothly, and more time can be spent discussing the facts instead of verifying them.

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  • mikal1216
    mikal1216 Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    takodaten wrote: »
    Yeah, too much whining going on.


    I am an original player who tested this game right into open beta. I quit playing for various reasons once it went free to play losing my freeform and locking half my toons into gold.

    I didnt even know the game was "switched" to PWI until this week when I decided to see what has changed. Here was my issues as a long term veteran player who has tested the game, and paid money into it.

    1. NEGATIVE: Right off from the start it was a chore just to determine how to link my account, and reading how so many "lost" their toons which made me nervous. The links/info how to probally link were not as evident as they should be.

    2. NEGATIVE: As a returning player just looking for the info while downloading the game, I was subjected to a ton of very negative feedback on the state of the game that made me think it was dying off the get go- when I was thought PWI having the game "reloaded" would mean more players and pvp!

    3. POSITIVE: Once I loaded into game, having some issues with my old toons, I found I had now had RARE no longer dropped items, anniversary gifts, and within 3-4 hours community had traded me a nice ride, full set of modded Heroic armor. The community was GREAT (though the chat seemed like drama)

    4. POSITIVE: The game felt like a new game, and I was energized to play with so many GREAT changes! I feel like I love the game again, and have ceased to play anything else. Graphically it seems alot better as well.

    Now here is where I get a little worried. I see the server go down right after a morning maintenance? Constant rubber banding, various bugs still here. (mainly rubberbanding and lag dragging items from locations)

    Last but not least- I am a VETERAN who tested, then paid for this game monthly.

    How am I treated now? Even though my PWI account is several years old, original beta tester, I am not allowed to post on forums or send PM's to non friends ingame because I am "a new account."
    I am neither new to PWI (having bought lots of zen) nor am I new to CO.

    The above is what new, returning veterans, and original testers are subjected to.

    I have watched SWG, ENB (think god both came back in emu!) die much the same fashion.

    The players stuck until the end because there IS no where else for them to go for what they like in these games. DCUO? Please.....30 mins of that and you will remove it from your hard drive.

    Community is here, they have spoken, and in old movie style, "IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME!"
  • mikal1216
    mikal1216 Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I would have made my own post but i wasnt allowed :(
  • devtracker
    devtracker Posts: 66 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I generally have to agree.

    One of the things that makes trying to discus things on the internet so exhausting is that people don't feel that they need to be responsible for that they say. What if lawyers expected judges or a jury to agree with them without sighting case law?

    Im not saying that every thing any one says should come with a link (but some statements should) but it would be nice if more people would at least provide some kind of rationale if they are claiming (or implying) to state something other than their subjective feelings.

    Of course this all depends on the tone of each conversation but...

    Its pretty simple. If you are simply giving your opinion, there is nothing to prove so no source is needed. But if you are quoting statistics, then you should be able to provide a link to your source. If you cant do that then your comments are meaningless.
  • sigmaseven0
    sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    mensar wrote: »
    Very sick of all the whining on here.
    I may be out of place in saying this but whining about whining is also a form of whining.
    When i get brought down by the vibe of the forums, i take your advice and don't read or post here.

    I'm not saying that your wrong in how you feel, because i often feel the same way, I just want to draw your attention to the fact that people will not stop whining on the internet regardless of what you, I, or any one else says.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • sigmaseven0
    sigmaseven0 Posts: 714 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    devtracker wrote: »
    Its pretty simple. If you are simply giving your opinion, there is nothing to prove so no source is needed. But if you are quoting statistics, then you should be able to provide a link to your source. If you cant do that then your comments are meaningless.

    LOL, you were able to sum up my thoughts in a much smaller post, maybe i talk too much.:tongue:

    I think i have a habit of making things more complicated than they have to be.

    PVP is starving without rewards

    1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
    2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
  • jonsills
    jonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    mikal1216 wrote:
    Now here is where I get a little worried. I see the server go down right after a morning maintenance?
    Does it make you feel better to know that CO wasn't the only game that crashed? The Cryptic login server went down; STO crashed too. Their mods kept shutting down the threads that popped up about it, leading to more threads about threads being closed...
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • mikal1216
    mikal1216 Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I just stating how a returning player feels coming back.

    Like I said in the end of my post, "IF YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME"

    Players are here, and more will come back with some advertising and fixes.
  • mikal1216
    mikal1216 Posts: 4 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Server must be back up, people stopped posting :)
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Well, there's also the fact that sometimes when you do present your evidence, it's dismissed as "mere conjecture"... :biggrin:

    You claimed lockboxes sold more than the stuff we're clamoring for. All you provided was a post from community rep that said they sold well. There was nothing in his post that said they sold better than anything else.

    So yes, it was mere conjecture on your part.
  • jonsills
    jonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    You claimed lockboxes sold more than the stuff we're clamoring for. All you provided was a post from community rep that said they sold well. There was nothing in his post that said they sold better than anything else.

    So yes, it was mere conjecture on your part.
    I stated that according to reports, keys were selling well. The fact that more lockboxes are offered, and more costumes are not, seems a bit telling in that regard.

    Now, if you just want to read a few words out of a post and respond to that, that's your privilege, I suppose - but that does mean I no longer have to take you seriously (not that I was taking you all that seriously before, after your epeen-measuring contests in other threads...).
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    I stated that according to reports, keys were selling well. The fact that more lockboxes are offered, and more costumes are not, seems a bit telling in that regard.

    *Ahem*:
    jonsills wrote: »
    And yet by all reports, keys to lockboxes are selling quite well, apparently better than the things we on the forums request.

    Care to try revising history some more? Maybe we'll claim that Martians aided in the invasion of Normandy?
  • jonsills
    jonsills Posts: 6,314 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Okay, what part of "apparently" were you failing to understand?

    You know what? Never mind. I'm not going to argue with a troll. I've got enough stomach problems what with acid reflux - I don't need this.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • takodaten
    takodaten Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Care to try revising history some more? Maybe we'll claim that Martians aided in the invasion of Normandy?

    Hey! That's not fair!






















    They were from Pluto. You know, it was a planet then.
  • trailturtle
    trailturtle Administrator Posts: 5,496 Perfect World Employee
    edited March 2013
    Servers are back up! :D
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    jonsills wrote: »
    Okay, what part of "apparently" were you failing to understand?

    You know what? Never mind. I'm not going to argue with a troll. I've got enough stomach problems what with acid reflux - I don't need this.

    Can't admit when you're wrong, eh? I only wish I was trolling. I'd be having more fun.
  • deathsentry2012
    deathsentry2012 Posts: 149 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Have to say that as a former CoHer I'm loving CO in terms of the customization options (FF is like heaven!!). I love the combat system (I understand NWO's may be better but CO's is more active than CoH was).

    But now after a few months, I've got like 4 or 5 level 40s and this is where I'm starting to struggle with content. So I went out to Monster Island today to try and discover the content there and play through it, so will see what happens.

    What IS sad though is that this is such a GREAT GAME with AMAZING potential in a market where it really could lead. DCUO is for consoles, Marvel's MMO doesn't allow you to create your own character, and with a sizable ex-CoH community out there, this could be big.

    Just sad that PWE/Cryptic won't capitalize on it; I know the codebases are different at this point but the Foundry really would breathe new life into the game (while also letting the playerbase help with that). Some time ago there was a post that Jack Emmett said if he got enough positive responses they would consider adding the Foundry.. Well, we all responded (and then some) but still no word.

    So while I am extremely grateful for TT's vigilance and responsiveness, it would be nice to know where they plan on taking this game (as an earlier poster said, perhaps a state of the game from Jack).

    Right now they could have a monopoly in this genre and with a slate of superhero movies targeted to come out over the next few years capitalizing on the success of Batman/Avengers/Iron Man, etc, this market is ripe.

    From a business perspective, I would think they could project a steady-stream of profit based on these factors if they would invest in the game... if not, I would just hate to see it die a slow death with the community having no place else to go or worse, a new game comes out in this genre and the community abandons CO in droves if for no other reason than the new game has a responsive and focused team.
  • ashensnow
    ashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    *Ahem*:



    Care to try revising history some more?

    You do know the definition of the word, "apparently," right ?

    "Seeming to be the case but not necessarily so."

    I mean, my god man, you quoted him. What is the point of quoting something as proof of, "X," if you are not going to bother gaining understanding of what was actually said ?

    His post clearly stated (assuming that one is willing to look up words that one does not understand) that it was an appearance (and so not necessarily the case) that the keys outsold other options.

    There are enough issues with the game, dev communication, blatant falsehoods from players (on both sides of the hater/fanboi fence), and so on, for you to pick apart if you are so inclined. Jumping on something of this sort, where Jon's post stated that his position was merely a seeming and not necessarily accurate or factual doesn't make him look bad. It isnt a gotcha moment against him. It merely showed that you chose not to (or perhaps cannot ?) do what just about any average intelligence third grader in the English speaking world can...look up a word that you apparently did not understand in the dictionary.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    You do know the definition of the word, "apparently," right ?

    "Seeming to be the case but not necessarily so."

    And how does it "seem to be so?" There was nothing in TT's post that could lead to one to extrapolate such a notion. All it said was "lockboxes are selling well" to paraphrase it. There was no other information in the TT post provided.
    I mean, my god man, you quoted him. What is the point of quoting something as proof of, "X," if you are not going to bother gaining understanding of what was actually said ?

    His post clearly stated (assuming that one is willing to look up words that one does not understand) that it was an appearance (and so not necessarily the case) that the keys outsold other options.

    There are enough issues with the game, dev communication, blatant falsehoods from players (on both sides of the hater/fanboi fence), and so on, for you to pick apart if you are so inclined. Jumping on something of this sort, where Jon's post stated that his position was merely a seeming and not necessarily accurate or factual doesn't make him look bad. It isnt a gotcha moment against him. It merely showed that you chose not to (or perhaps cannot ?) do what just about any average intelligence third grader in the English speaking world can...look up a word that you apparently did not understand in the dictionary.

    It seems to be a stretch to conclude that they might be selling better than anything else when there is no other information provided. How did he reach his assumption? Is it because the C-Store is barely updated at all? If so, there are numerous other conjectural reasons why nothing new is added:

    1) There are no more resources dedicated to development of this game.

    2) The C-Store has reached the same kind of database limit as the game.

    3) Vehicles are a current dev fad and once they get hit by their ADD bug again, something different will take their focus in due time.

    4) All of the above?

    It is frankly a leap to take "lockboxes are selling well" and conclude that that means in exclusion of everything else.
  • dantheiceman1
    dantheiceman1 Posts: 121 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    mensar wrote: »
    You know.. I told myself I wasn't going to bother writing in here anymore.. but I have to say it.

    If you want to stay, stay.. make suggestions and enjoy the content that is provided.

    If not, leave..

    And that means forum, game, planet. Whatever it takes.

    Very sick of all the whining on here.

    ya why are you here exactly? because i really find it funny your so gung ho about saying this game is so great, and that really confuses me after i read this post here

    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=194151

    talk about a 180 if i ever saw one
    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=124755
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  • shieldtower
    shieldtower Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    And how does it "seem to be so?" There was nothing in TT's post that could lead to one to extrapolate such a notion. All it said was "lockboxes are selling well" to paraphrase it. There was no other information in the TT post provided.

    There was nothing in TT's post to suggest it isn't true either.

    Let's assume(because that's all we can do whether you like it or not) that keys aren't the top seller and costume sets are where the money is. Would it not stand to reason that if costumes, or any other item, were outselling keys that PWE would pick up on that trend and have the dev team make and add more of that item to the store to sell alongside the mandated key system? Or at the very least promote said item if it's something that lacks visual substance like retcon tokens?

    Vehicles seem to fit that idea nicely as they've been promoted like crazy and their highish price would lead one to think that they had the potential to make PWE a lot of money; but then reality sets in and you remember that vehicles start out inside of lockboxes before they hit the stores.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________
  • ashensnow
    ashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    And how does it "seem to be so?" There was nothing in TT's post that could lead to one to extrapolate such a notion. All it said was "lockboxes are selling well" to paraphrase it. There was no other information in the TT post provided.



    It seems to be a stretch to conclude that they might be selling better than anything else when there is no other information provided. How did he reach his assumption? Is it because the C-Store is barely updated at all? If so, there are numerous other conjectural reasons why nothing new is added:

    1) There are no more resources dedicated to development of this game.

    2) The C-Store has reached the same kind of database limit as the game.

    3) Vehicles are a current dev fad and once they get hit by their ADD bug again, something different will take their focus in due time.

    4) All of the above?

    It is frankly a leap to take "lockboxes are selling well" and conclude that that means in exclusion of everything else.

    This is the most appropriate response to the above...
    Can't admit when you're wrong, eh?

    But, for what its worth, it is not unreasonable to theorize that lock box keys are the greater source of revenue based entirely on the fact that Cryptic has been emphasizing them over c-store items for new releases. It is reasonable to assume that Cryptic/PWE want to get as much money as possible from any expenditure of dev resources. So it is reasonable to theorize that keys must be a greater source of revenue if they have, to a large extent, replaced direct sales for new items.

    Now, is any of this based on access to Cryptic/PWE's books ? Nope, but the reduction, if not outright elimination, of new direct sales items along with the expansion of the lock box approach to releasing new items gives the appearance that Cryptic/PWE (the only ones with access to comparative sales data) sees keys as the better seller (in terms of sales revenue).

    So if the people with access to the numbers (and an assumed desire to make as much money as possible off of the C-store) prefer lock boxes and keys, well I would say that it is more reasonable to think that keys are the better seller than the opposite.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • ashensnow
    ashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ya why are you here exactly? because i really find it funny your so gung ho about saying this game is so great, and that really confuses me after i read this post here

    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=194151

    talk about a 180 if i ever saw one

    That is hilarious.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • drmechano
    drmechano Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    But, for what its worth, it is not unreasonable to theorize that lock box keys are the greater source of revenue based entirely on the fact that Cryptic has been emphasizing them over c-store items for new releases. It is reasonable to assume that Cryptic/PWE want to get as much money as possible from any expenditure of dev resources. So it is reasonable to theorize that keys must be a greater source of revenue if they have, to a large extent, replaced direct sales for new items.

    My own personal theory is that they're selling well due to the horrendous money limit on silver accounts, I admit, it is stunningly clever basically forcing the free to play guys to buy items in order to get the more expensive stuff.

    Cosmic Keys sell not because of the lockboxes but because they've basically become this weird sort of bartering item where 1 key is = to 100g.
  • ashensnow
    ashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    drmechano wrote: »
    My own personal theory is that they're selling well due to the horrendous money limit on silver accounts, I admit, it is stunningly clever basically forcing the free to play guys to buy items in order to get the more expensive stuff.

    Cosmic Keys sell not because of the lockboxes but because they've basically become this weird sort of bartering item where 1 key is = to 100g.

    Similar to how Crafted Travel Power materials were used before On Alert, and how Globs of Ectoplasm was used in Guild Wars 1 (where everyone had a currency limit). Of course the difference is that CTP materials and Globs of Ectoplasm were each readily available in game.

    I suppose that the Questionite exchange provides a similar means of access in CO.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • baroness1980
    baroness1980 Posts: 268 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    That is hilarious.
    ya why are you here exactly? because i really find it funny your so gung ho about saying this game is so great, and that really confuses me after i read this post here

    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=194151

    talk about a 180 if i ever saw one

    Ohhh

    Either that is a nice 180 or someone be trolling...
  • atompenguin
    atompenguin Posts: 93 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ya why are you here exactly? because i really find it funny your so gung ho about saying this game is so great, and that really confuses me after i read this post here

    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=194151

    talk about a 180 if i ever saw one

    Oh. Huh...

    I guess the game got better re... Hahahahah! No, that can't be it.
    -Campaign: Spells and Coin
    --Part 1: Spells and Coin (NW-DHM3XQVQK)
    --Part 2: A Blind Eye (NW-DI3QTHZGJ)
    --Part 3: Dodo's Dinner (NW-DHPA8O253)

    -One Shots
    --The Wizard of Eldeur (NW-DRKQNE4S7)
  • themightyzenith
    themightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ya why are you here exactly? because i really find it funny your so gung ho about saying this game is so great, and that really confuses me after i read this post here

    http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=194151

    talk about a 180 if i ever saw one

    O.o must have been his evil twin:eek:
    zrdRBy8.png
    Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    ashensnow wrote: »
    This is the most appropriate response to the above...

    No it's not.
    There was nothing in TT's post to suggest it isn't true either.

    Let's assume(because that's all we can do whether you like it or not) that keys aren't the top seller and costume sets are where the money is. Would it not stand to reason that if costumes, or any other item, were outselling keys that PWE would pick up on that trend and have the dev team make and add more of that item to the store to sell alongside the mandated key system? Or at the very least promote said item if it's something that lacks visual substance like retcon tokens?

    Vehicles seem to fit that idea nicely as they've been promoted like crazy and their highish price would lead one to think that they had the potential to make PWE a lot of money; but then reality sets in and you remember that vehicles start out inside of lockboxes before they hit the stores.
    ashensnow wrote: »
    But, for what its worth, it is not unreasonable to theorize that lock box keys are the greater source of revenue based entirely on the fact that Cryptic has been emphasizing them over c-store items for new releases. It is reasonable to assume that Cryptic/PWE want to get as much money as possible from any expenditure of dev resources. So it is reasonable to theorize that keys must be a greater source of revenue if they have, to a large extent, replaced direct sales for new items.

    Now, is any of this based on access to Cryptic/PWE's books ? Nope, but the reduction, if not outright elimination, of new direct sales items along with the expansion of the lock box approach to releasing new items gives the appearance that Cryptic/PWE (the only ones with access to comparative sales data) sees keys as the better seller (in terms of sales revenue).

    So if the people with access to the numbers (and an assumed desire to make as much money as possible off of the C-store) prefer lock boxes and keys, well I would say that it is more reasonable to think that keys are the better seller than the opposite.

    It's also reasonable to assume that if I can't find my socks, that ninjas broke into my home and stole them.

    That doesn't make it so, or logically sound.

    When someone claims "apparently," they're making a deduction from some form of evidence they've extrapolated their theory. I asked for that evidence. None was provided. Jon went on to claim that my dismissal was unwarranted. I proved him wrong again, and now I'm being attacked by very tenuous arguments.

    The existing evidence (lack of serious bug fixes, permanent content, refusal to comment how many developers there are) would more easily imply that this game is under total neglect rather than lockboxes being so popular that they outsell everything else and thus Cryptic decided to sell only keys.
  • meedacthunist
    meedacthunist Posts: 2,961 Arc User1
    edited March 2013
    There may be also another reason, why lockboxes.

    New costumes made on regular basis are much more labor consuming than new items for lockboxes. Current vehicles have only few recolored (quite simple) models and geo for chariot isn't anything very complicated as well.
    Similar goes for Harbringer event when we had only two new models - Harbringer itself and Lemurian jets.
    Ah, yes. Also Lemurian helmet which was a new model.
    All the rest were recycled resources with the map being only cosmetic edit to the Qularr invasion map.

    In comparison, new costume set requires much more work with modelling and texturing all parts. Doing it at a regular basis would require even more work.

    Even if keys are selling slightly less than costumes, or even only slightly better, it's still the most efficient way of making money for Cryptic.

    The most rushed and lackluster one, basically a mmo equivalent of minimalistic DLC, but the most efficient.

    So I'm not really surprised that Cryptic went that way.

    Especially with limited dev team for CO, it's their only way of milking CO players for now.
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I find a lot of disturbing merit in that deduction.
  • zahinder
    zahinder Posts: 2,382 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    I think someone along the command chain is unwisely discounting the indirect ways that lockboxes vs. z-store purchases affect morale and interest in the game.

    The seductive part is that I'm sure, on paper, lockboxes look great -- I imagine the ROI is much better in hard numbers for development costs vs. purchases.

    The shift of development resources that way, however, adds to a larger malaise that saps the game of potential revenue. The problem is that you can't prove that or even easily metric it for a suit.


    SO this is where we are.
    Campaign: The Fenwick Cycle NWS-DKR9GB7KH

    Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?

    Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?

    Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
  • shieldtower
    shieldtower Posts: 1,208 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    It's also reasonable to assume that if I can't find my socks, that ninjas broke into my home and stole them.

    That doesn't make it so, or logically sound.

    Oh boy here it comes...
    When someone claims "apparently," they're making a deduction from some form of evidence they've extrapolated their theory. I asked for that evidence. None was provided. Jon went on to claim that my dismissal was unwarranted. I proved him wrong again, and now I'm being attacked by very tenuous arguments.

    The existing evidence (lack of serious bug fixes, permanent content, refusal to comment how many developers there are) would more easily imply that this game is under total neglect rather than lockboxes being so popular that they outsell everything else and thus Cryptic decided to sell only keys.


    See that highlighted section? That's called conjecture. I don't care how popular that sentiment is around here, it's based entirely on "apparently's", supposition and assumptions. That doesn't make it so, or logically sound. Additionally, you said earlier:
    That is only conjecture. I am not interested in conjecture.

    This is the part where I crack an "apparently" joke. /cannedlaughter
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________
  • kojirohellfire
    kojirohellfire Posts: 2,075 Arc User
    edited March 2013
    Oh boy here it comes...

    See that highlighted section? That's called conjecture. I don't care how popular that sentiment is around here, it's based entirely on "apparently's", supposition and assumptions. That doesn't make it so, or logically sound. Additionally, you said earlier:

    As the other guy so "kindly" put it while he was deliberately insulting my intelligence and education, "apparently" means "seems to be the case but not necessarily so," so we have to deduce that Jon saw something that sparked his conjecture about lockbox keys selling better than everything else. I wanted to know what it was and asked in Wiki-speak: "[Citation needed]." He couldn't provide, which makes his theory completely baseless.

    Ergo, it is a leap of logic to take from "lockbox keys are selling well" and thus a completely errant stretch until Jon can provide something that sparked his supposition.
This discussion has been closed.