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A Mild-Mannered Reporter: So what's the deal with Champions Online?
devtracker
Posts: 66 Arc User
Let's be honest here. Champions Online is not in a good state.
A couple of weeks back I wrote about how expecting a limited-time event to flesh out the game's endgame is silly to say the least, and I stand by that. But there are two issues under discussion here, and the second is "does the game need more content?" The answer, right now, is an emphatic yes. An event isn't the place to go looking for that content necessarily, but this is still a pretty significant problem, and the game certainly doesn't look as if it's fast approaching its fourth year of operation (and it is).
So what happened? It's no secret that the game launched to some pretty poor reception, but that doesn't account for the way that the game has been managed since then, especially when its free-to-play conversion has by all indications been reasonably successful. So why is it that after nearly half the lifespan of City of Heroes it still feels like a game that just recently launched?
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/03/27/a-mild-mannered-reporter-so-whats-the-deal-with-champions-onli/
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So the real question is... are the devs even going to contemplate doing something to change this perception and provide real meaningful content like the Foundry... or listen and respond to players on the... let's say suggestions forum?
Or are we going to watch how the game keeps getting crappier and crappier by being almost entirely abandoned?
No. We're going to watch things stay exactly the same.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Two things are the cause of that, poor quality management (i.e.: mostly Robobobo's and StormShade's bad leadership with dictatorship-like personalities; but Brad has done little to improve things in Champions, only Star Trek Online), and insufficient funding (which has everything to do with PerfectWorld not wishing to invest sufficient funds into Champions, and or course the loss of existing customers who already proved they were willing to pay -- subscribers and fans of PvP mostly).
The issue is compound, and there's no single person or even group to lay the blame at.
What matters however is where we go from here. Past is past, you learn from it so you don't repeat mistakes and can make improvements. But if you don't improve and fix what's broken, then it does no good to critique the past.
I'm actually a bit peeved this reported didn't bother to report on this: http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=214781
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Fixed that for you. Personally, I think CO devs in 2013 are an urban myth, whispered of as a fond reminiscence of The Time That Was Before PWI, back when there was a Cryptic forum that actually saw one or two of them actually comment even in the Suggestions Box or the red-headed stepchild PvP forums.
hopefully they do something about it
The Nemesis system needs fixing and here's ideas:
A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business. Henry Ford
Translation: Cryptic shoveled the same $#!+ at Eliot that they shoveled at us, and he ain't buying it either.
I'm sorry, but one Ask Cryptic full of creative ways to say "soon" and "no" can't possibly be all that comes from The Meeting. At this point, we no longer need a State of The Game, we should DEMAND a State of The Game. And if it were up to me, I'd demand it from no less than Jack Emmert. Somebody has to answer for what's happening to this game, this community, and this genre. The buck stops with him.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
i agree FULLY with sister silicon
if the devs and PWE/cryptic do anything about it remains to be seen, deep down i really hope they do change. Considering now that the media is asking WTF is the wrong with champions they might change their tone.
But i have a feeling that they won't.
Personally speaking i think that cryptic managers need a steel toed boot up their derri?re, for making such stupid decisions. Like completely ignoring what the player base wants in this game (ie Foundry, nem system etc)
and considering that Brou found bits and pieces of the foundry in this wasted potential thread that makes me even MORE mad at them.
because from what i have seen is user made content was a HUGE seller in city of heroes, STO, and the upcoming neverwinter...
and if that gets into champions online, i can GUARANTEE, we would have a larger player-base once that is put into the game
larger playerbase = more money = happier players = happier big wigs
winners all around
and considering jack was all gung ho to do champions in the first place over city of heroes back when city of heroes started he would ABSOLUTELY be the person to do the state of the game
The Nemesis system needs fixing and here's ideas:
A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business. Henry Ford
Indeed. This is my fear. Ultimately this will kill the game if something isn't done. I know Cryptic doesn't like to divulge too many secrets but they should make an effort to ease the fears of the community and put forth some sort of detailed long term plan or something. I keep thinking that things will pick-up after Neverwinter launches but I have to wonder if this is really the case. We'll wait and see but I'm bothered.
The only way to get out of the rut is for PWI to invest money back into CO, bring in more developers, and add meaningful, substantial content to it. But then, why do this, if there aren't enough players, (you can see where I'm going w/ this).
We can "demand" all we want - but with how many lockboxes they keep putting into the game, it's apparent that *those* are what's keeping the game afloat. The players grinding Alerts to the exclusion of all other content, are where the *current* money's at. Those that were here from the start, before we could even see our weapons in the tailor, have basically been forgotten.
It's a sad state of affairs, but the degree of customization and freeform still make this game more fun for me than its competitors.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I wouldn't hold your breath, they can't even be bothered to read their own forums anymore in any serious capacity.
I am utterly convinced that executive management, not Trailturtle, not Lordgar but the executive management that have any sway whatsoever with PWE in their internal meetings - are completely uninterested in investing in Champions-Online.
The last time Jack Emmert or anyone of that influence from the executive management posted on the CO-forums was back at the original launch. You may get the odd comment in passing at PAX or something but only as an example of him reeling-off and listing Cryptic-Studios titles. No comment, no input, no direction for this specific title, reading between the lines its obvious where this title sits in PWE/Cryptic's priorities.
The joke is PWE/Cryptic thinks it can just milk off our enthusiasm for Champions-Online ad-infinitum, take the revenue (as it did at the F2P relaunch with the 1000% jump in revenue-takings) and re-invest them where it likes (STO and Neverwinter).
What they don't get is that is having a direct effect on some gamers with them avoiding their future titles because they have seen what has happened to Champions-Online.
I love the StarTrek universe and IP (albeit not quite as much as the StarWars IP in my youth but i digress) - but I have a few StarTrek films (I, II, V, VI, first contact and the JJ Abrams reboot) all on blu-ray - yet I will not touch the MMO because I am disgusted with the way that Cryptic has squandered the potential in the promising Champions IP from Hero games.
Champions-Online does not have a big company like CBS holding the licensing-rights as leverage, making damn sure they invest or they'd pull the license from under Cryptic's feet. They've sat on their hands with CO because, well, because they can.
The Cryptic-Studios of 2011 onwards has proved to be an utterly lazy development studio as far as supporting this their own existing title. A total disregard for the wishes of the game's community re: the game's direction and the sort of content the playerbase would like implemented, and importantly an incredible lack of focus and ADHD with the studio continually chasing short-term profit over developing and supporting it's existing titles.
Another thing I would like to touch on is the discourtesy shown towards the community here.
Fifty... I repeat FIFTY forumites asked the same roundabout question concerning the development and direction of the game on the latest ASK CRYPTIC and they completely blanked us. Disgusting.
Dropping my knitting to buff you whilst hitting - Proudly protecting Millennium City's little ones since 2009.
@Mothers_Love
Overall a very good read with what I consider a spot on analysis.
a
Unfortunately, Cryptic has shown that it likely doesn't care enough to even read that.
yup the truth hurts, and they probably won't even acknowledge the article either
The Nemesis system needs fixing and here's ideas:
A business that makes nothing but money is a poor business. Henry Ford
I got my popcorn ready, waiting to read how delusional and full of nonfacts that article is.
.
.
.
.
What?
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
If you've ever watched the show "Bar Rescue," it's essentially that premise. Find out what the major problems are (content, bugs, etc), find the right management to handle the issue, see what players are buying the most of instead of force-feeding us lockboxes, look into what makes their other games successful and attempt to outdo them and focus on team effort instead of making one developer read all the crap on the forum and deciding what to make of it.
BUT NOPE.
I also tried calling them just for ****s and giggles to see if I could talk to a representative about things. I was told by a robot that no one was there to take my call and that the voicemail didn't accept messages, then it hung up on me. CUSTOMER SUPPORT
If I was playing a game and it no longer entertained me, that is there was no new content to hold my interest, I would find a new game.
From these forums, I think I must be in the minority.
I think this is the best quote from the article, and it's what Cryptic thinks about CO.
You oldies aren't important to the bottom line, and you need to understand that there is no crime in that.
You really had to tempt them, didn't you Finn?
Maybe you do have a problem reading what other people type...
Like in how many times you have been told that people is complaining so the game gets BETTER, not because they want the game to close...
The more you like the game (or gameS, plural if you happen to love Champions pnp) seems the more vocal you are into wanting the game to improve and succeed and GROW...
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Some of us don't give up as easily as you do.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
At least two of the most chronic complainers have flatly stated that they no longer play CO, and that nothing will ever induce them to play any games by Cryptic ever again. I'm still uncertain why they're bothering to post in these forums - perhaps some bridge-dwelling tendencies, it's hard to say.
There are those who make constructive suggestions, or at least have constructive criticisms - but they are frequently drowned out by the voices of those certain that this game is doomed, DOOOOMMED I tells ya! (And on occasion, those making constructive suggestions or criticisms are condemned as "cheerleaders" for failing to fall into line with the doomcriers.)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Ah we all know that guy who quit smoking and is constantly being a **** to people who still smoke.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Hell yea!
I love reading these people. Some of them are funny and some just sad.
Yes. Yes you are. And i love you for it.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
They need to risk themselves somewhat, giving the devs enough recources to make a real endgame and new content, that will make people on the game who is thinking about leaving stay, keeping them happy and as such spending money, and people who has leaved since there was no real content anymore, will hear about it and comeback, maybe returning to the game for and indefinite time and spending money, and the publicity of new content in big-scale will bring new people, who would see this game as still living, and they may stay, and possibly spend money.
All I ask is break the cycle one time, risk yourself, and if it works, CO would deserve being given real recources, and if it fails, it's not like you are going to spend recources again, i mean, you don't do it now, so...
Just consider it, Cryptic, Could you?.
I like cats :cool:.
UGC Campaign: The Coldblooded Scrolls
Having a talking cat would make my day.
We could go on adventures, and talk about fish and stuff.
But lets be honest, I will NEVER get a talking cat (they are just to expensive).
I enjoy the company of a normal cat instead, and if that wasn't good enough, I would try a dog.
Kudos to Massively for this article. Whether it has any effect on how CO is being handled ia another matter entirely, as pointed out in this thread already.
I've tried giving helpful suggestions, they generally ignored. No problem, I'm not special. But I'm not the only one.
I want new content but I know I'm not getting it, not really. I'm frustrated, kind of angry and have lost most of my hope for the game.
What do I do?
How do I keep coming back?
Simple.
I'm an RP person.
Yep, that narrow niche player type that gets no respect. Yep, that's us. We play the -sh*t- out of this thing. And the Devs generally pretend we don't exist*
So, yea I still play and I still complain.
*not always, but any bennies we get are always carefully coached as 'social' add ons. Like's we're the black sheep of the CO family. Funny since this is supposedly a MMORPG
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
I feel very similarly...
I love this game, warts and all, but it is clear that what the players want doesn't matter to the developers and publishers anymore.
This game could be truly great and the solutions seem to be right here on the forums. People are telling the makers what they want to spend their cash on and it isn't lockboxes. A quick look at the forums shows that many of the people here know what they want. Many of the players seem to even agree, as scary as that is, on several features we would love to see fleshed, fixed or worked on that WE WOULD SPEND MONEY ON. We are not terribly interested in lockboxes. Maybe people are buying keys and that is what is making some trickle of cash, but WITH the lockboxes surges of purchases would come with REAL CONTENT. Some ideas here on the forums just make so much sense that it is hard to believe that these ideas are being ignored! (SG Housing, Revamped Nemi system, MORE powersets, MORE costumes and new areas/missions for the 40 and beyond crowd along with some PvP revamps and content)
At this very moment I am looking at Neverwinter, I have played the beta, and I am seriously wondering if I will EVER invest my time or money again in this developer's properties or PWI because of how THIS property is being mishandled. Let's face it, how they treat this game is merely a preview of what they will do with everything from now on.
If you don't respect and acknowledgment who your money is coming and their desires sooner or later it will stop coming because someone will. That recognition is something that builds fans, fuels loyalty and garners support. The flash-flash-in-the-pan players will spend and be gone, but the ones that stay because they are treated well will always be there for you because you were always there listening to them.
I used to love Cryptic's games. Now I just don't know anymore. Mostly because I don't feel they care about me or where their money is coming from and many of us see that and won't support that. With how hard money is to come by these days, why should we?
"Saying 'Everything is fine as is.' in the MMO world is like holding your breath. Eventually you die from lack of common sense."
[SIGPIC]http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3117963000&dateline=1341271690[/SIGPIC]
By contrast they have to be seen to be doing something with STO because they have to please the guys who own the liscense because if they don't, they can pull it away from them at a moments notice because they're not happy with the way the product is being handled. It is the same with Neverwinter, Wizards are a notoriously fickle lot and can do the same if they so please.
Basically there is no pressure to keep CO updated, so why bother?
City of Heroes has gone, DCUO is barely surviving, there is no threat to CO at the moment so there is no need on that front to keep it updated either. City of Heroes was outpreforming CO even upto its cancellation mind you so I guess even competition wasn't a major impetus to keep CO updated.
I still don't get why they're releasing Neverwinter, the Fantasy MMO genre has one massive Gorilla in the room and a slightly smaller one as well (WoW and Guild Wars 2 respectively). The bubble on fantasy MMOs burst a long time ago which is why you're seeing the rise of other genres of MMO.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Please don't get a pet if you are unsure whether it will be good enough. The shelters don't need another unwanted pet to put down.
They have to finish it because of Hasbro and PW.
It's better than objecting and closing down.
Actually it's not a normal cat; it's a starving, neglected cat with a broken leg. We're just trying to get someone to feed it and tend its injury.
Just a thought...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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[Citation needed.]
Okay. There are people BEGGING to give Cryptic money.
However, they're NOT going to give them money for nothing.
They're not going to spend on digital scratch-off tickets. Even if guaranteed "something".
They want to be able to build monetization in the game into some sort of self-perpetuating ecosystem. Where, all that's happened prior is that money has been siphoned off everywhere BUT this game.
The game STILL has lots of potential and LOTS of room to grow.
If only Cryptic and PWE had the vision to actually make it so.
But they're too busy grubbing in the dirt for their lockbox money.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
I have a solution! Eat the cat!
And yes I understand thats somewhat cannibalistic on my half but again EVIL!
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I'd like to see that report, my good sir. I value your opinion in this community more than I fear the developers do and I am genuinely interested where you got that information. I need to be clear. THIS IS NOT SARCASM.
I think I am sensing that you are of the mentality that A free game allowed to run on life support is considerably better than a closed one, and I fully agree, but I am of the mindset that a slightly more profitable game (even after development costs) with some content paid for buy happy customers be cooler. I would think that a lockboxes+"some form of what customers are asking for paid content" is something appealing and we could all get behind. That is pretty much what I mentioned, but I think that point might have gotten lost somewhere in my sappy sorrow. Sorry about that.
As for not knowing how to run a successful business, I wouldn't assume that about this community. I'll wager that there is at least ONE successful business owner here on the forums fulling knowing I would win that bet. Anyways I understand that you probably meant that very few to none of us know how to run a successful game company. I just think that ALL businesses, in order to survive/flourish, should consider the opinions of their (potential and current) customers in relatively high regard so that they can cater to said customer's desires (or maybe even needs) and grow their potential earnings. Weighed against the risks of stagnation and assured failure to earn more revenue versus listening to your consumer base, trying to implement some of their desires and MAYBE making more that they would choose the latter.
"Saying 'Everything is fine as is.' in the MMO world is like holding your breath. Eventually you die from lack of common sense."
[SIGPIC]http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=3117963000&dateline=1341271690[/SIGPIC]
Another D&D MMO based off the vastly more popular ruleset as well (3.0/3.5 vs 4.0). They're already looking to release another edition of the D&D which 'unsimplifies' things and 4th Edition has been fairly unpopular, leading to the rise of Pathfinder as peoples 'goto' tabletop game. So not only is it another fantasy MMO, it's another fantasy MMO based off of an unpopular ruleset and likely to peeve off fans of the original Neverwinter Nights games simply by being an MMO (remember the outcry that happened because Bioware turned the Knights of the Old Republic games into an MMO?).
There's too many people trying to take a slice of the Fantasy MMO pie, contrast the Sci-fi MMO genre, there is EVE online, STO and Black Prophercy for ship combat and Firefall, Planetside 2 and oddly enough STO again for the ground combat aspect. You're seeing more and more 'indie' sci-fi MMOs cropping up because it is one of the untapped genres that is relatively popular.
This was basically how CoH operated, they introduced the Superpacks which were essentially lockboxes (which tended to give you a crapton more useful stuff than the CO lockboxes give you) while also introducing other content alongside it.
How long that is until Blizzard release they're next big game (rumoured to be the Starcraft MMO or a general Sci-fi one) Project Titan.
They've got a niche MMO (CO) up and running and could be trying to expand it to be the best MMO in that niche, instead of just the only viable one.
And I seem to recall a few other posts along those lines, but my search-fu appears to fail me.
(Interestingly, for those who claim I'm a rah-rah cheerleader, it might be educational to look at my own posts on those threads - I gave my opinion of lockboxes at the time, there just doesn't seem to be any point to endlessly reiterating it.)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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...is not...
Looks like you have failed in your citation.
Because you're likely only breathing hot air and they don't exist.
Actually, cheer-leading is all I ever see from you.
That's sad, because it betrays Cryptic's lack of ambition for Champions. They want nothing to do with it if it can't be put in a gamblebox, dumbed down for C-store to encourage key sales, or drop from a disposable event boss that fills your inventory with gambleboxes along the way. Sell enough keys, and we get another event. Sell lots and lots of keys, and the next event might be fancy!
There are only two ways I see for this cycle to break. Either Cryptic invests in meaningful content again after Neverwinter launches, or key sales dry up and we join Paragon City in the abyss.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Okay, I understand that people are happy to have a person that talks to them due to the neglect from the developers, and the dried up well of information. However, Trailturtle might be a nice guy, I don't know him personally. What I do know, though, is that first and foremost he is a public relations guy. He is not going to say that lockboxes aren't making money if the company line is that lockboxes must be pushed at any opportunity.
So, at least CONSIDER your source. Take anything an employee of this company says with a grain of salt. Trailturtle ireminds me of the Iraqi Defense Minister from years back... He will promise and swear that the American's are nowhere near Iraq if that is what he is told to say. Meanwhile, a train of American tanks is simultaneously broadcasting footage showing them entering Baghdad.
Also, all this insulting you are doing of anyone that complains about the state of the game really doesn't matter. Be it true or not, (of which I believe things to be true) the appearance of a problem is spreading. And only getting worse. So, if Cryptic/PWE doesn't do SOMETHING about it, it is only going to get worse. So, their PR is not up to par, either.
I was playing DCUO the other day, and someone was talking about wanting to play Neverwinter. About 5 people chimed in about Cryptic, and their "track record" with games. This should have been nipped in the bud, but now, I fear it might be too late. Yeah, 5 people isn't much. But they probably talked a few potential customers out of even trying Neverwinter.
Companies can live or die by reputation alone. How the public PERCEIVES a company can really impact its bottom line. Once your reputation goes low enough, there is not much else you can do to improve it.
So, quote the PR shill all you want. Point out how people are doomsayers and grumpy gus', but the cat is out of the bag. And it is running wild through the streets.
That is only conjecture. I am not interested in conjecture.
For the most part that game feels like everything Champions wanted to be. The battle mechanic is not this awkward thing where you're holding shift to block and pressing 'e' repeatedly to get out of a hold. Players can make their own missions and, in essence, instances to role-play... etc. Neverwinter is probably going to be fairly profitable because it is a better game fundamentally.
However, I think they should be careful about tarnishing their brand. Allocating resources based on return may make the most business sense, but disenfranchising your base before a major release isn't good either.
That being said, I don't think Champions is going anywhere for a long time. It's making money and Cryptic's other titles are doing well.
I am kinda curious as to what the secret game they're working on is. Given their MO of table-top conversions and the werewolf artwork fans dug up which was thought to be unreleased CO Halloween content I'm guessing it's a White Wolf game. Although secretly I wish it was a Dark Champions or Cosmic Champions expansion. Wouldn't that be something?
I see the devs adding more rotating event content and stuff that is in other cryptic games like auras and sidekicks.
The Vampire vs. Werewolves graphic novel-ish game was canned.
Also there's no chance of Cryptic gaining a WoD license, as CCP, the developers of EVE Online, merged with White Wolf a while back and are currently already developing the WoD MMORPG.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Oh really?
I too have seen several posts (and/or chat channel comments) from devs and/or TT that support the idea that lockboxes have been successful. Ive seen a dev comment, in a chat channel, that vehicles have similarly been very successful.
I do not have the inclination to hunt for the forum posts, nor the ability to prove the chat comments, so take this with a grain of salt. On the other hand Cryptic has the numbers. Their response to the results of the first lockbox was to introduce more. Their response to the results of the subsequent lock boxes was to introduce even more. It may be a stretch, and is certainly an assumption, but it seems reasonable to expect that the results upon which the decision to continue expanding use of lockboxes has been made support that decision.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.