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So you say we have only 2 devs.
itsbrou
Posts: 1,778 Arc User
Prove it.
No theory. No "I think I saw this thread," then neglecting to link the actual thread. Don't point at the dev tracker.
Produce proof. Until then, you are circulating a lie.
No theory. No "I think I saw this thread," then neglecting to link the actual thread. Don't point at the dev tracker.
Produce proof. Until then, you are circulating a lie.
Brou in Cryptic games.
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There's not much evidence of any support for this game beyond that for the past few months.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
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The "2 devs" thing seems to have started with a user who essentially said, "I heard from a source ..."
That is, as you imply, not good info.
But what we DO have is mounting circumstantial evidence that the dev team (i.e., people whose only job is working on / supporting CO) is rather small.
No UNTIL reports for months.
No calendar updates.
Very limited dev interaction, and what there is is little more than banter.
Poor QA.
Shared community rep who let an OMG flagrant forum violation slide for 2 or 3 days (hard to show the lights are on when you let your forum slide).
Most of the updates we've seen for the last year amount to low-hanging fruit: rehashes of existing systems (vehicles); systems propagated from Cryptic's other games; new ATs.
I don't know if it's 2 devs, more devs or fewer devs, but I will throw out a data point: some time during Issue 6, CoH's dev team was reduced to 15. Issue 7 was a cluster-F, but Issues 8 through 12 were the strongest string of updates, IME, that game ever had. With a small(ish) dev team that didn't grow until, IIRC, i11 and wasn't fully up to speed until 12 or 13.
http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Freem_Fifteen
STO's team size is 50, http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=202701
If we have a team size of 50, it is, quite possibly, the most incompetent in the history of MMO gaming. Not bloody likely with a skinflint like Emmert at the helm.
15 devs? Unlikely -- that was enough people to fix i7, release a revamped zone (RCS), release a 2 new systems (item crafting, the market), release a completely new zone (Cimerora).
We are, I believe, looking at a number between 0 and 15. 15 seems rather high given the amount of new shinies we've seen recently. 0 also seems unlikely since we have recently spotted a non-community person, splosions, in the dev tracker. And we're still getting patches.
And, I believe, this game still has a lead (although I could be wrong).
My guess? 2 or 3 full-time with input from elsewhere in the company (STO, Neverwinter, and CO share the same codebase so fixes and features in one game can be moved to the others). It might be higher, but not much so.
Edit: I'd also add that CO seems to function as training wheels for new and or inexperienced hires. Remember Tumer getting shunted to STO? The hires from Cryptic being put on STO? We're not getting Cryptic's A-team so the productivity gleaned from the folks we do have is probably far more limited than what we saw with the Freem 15 which included people from pre-release.
We have ZERO development.
What's the point?
"3 devs" may just be hyperbole, but it's representative of the priority this game has been given. There's no reason to question that. It's probably accepted that currently NWO is the priority as it is deeper development and launch preparation, and that's common in MMOs. If NWO's priority is debated, then we'll move on to that later, but sticking between just STO and CO, there are quantifiable differences that can be compared in terms of production within the last 6 months, and even before. From the launch of STO it has recieved more updates, more consistently, more frequently, and none of which have to do with the code-base.
They have nearly daily blogs and regular updates and features, community interaction, had an ask Cryptic in December, and even a cursory scan of their store and server populations shows more activity from both the developer and player sides.
So, really, the actual amount of Devs doesn't really matter except that if they have equal size teams, or if CO's team is even bigger than STO's apparently 50+ size team (in a company the size of 100-200, according to wiki, which I'm inclined to believe since 200 seems to be the high end of the MMO developers scale) then it's a scary thought that Cryptic is bleeding money into a team's salaries that aren't producing anything.
So I guess my argument is - prove there aren't 3. Because otherwise, it's just lies.
And if there are more than 3, well then, that's a whoooooooole other issue.
You characterize the 2 dev talk as lies. Not rumors, not speculation, not flights of fancy, lies. A lie is something untrue delivered with intent to deceive. Where's your proof that the 2 dev rumor is false and that people are intentionally misleading others?
*disclaimer* I'm not saying I believe or disbelieve in Two-dev-gate. Just that "lie" is not the right term. Maybe try rumormongering.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
There is a huge fanbase waiting for a good superhero experience and Cryptic seems content to sit there staring vacuously into space.
Even if we have had development going on in the background, no one is saying anything. Usually there is tons of communication for cool upcoming features, but not a word since Reloaded update.
So I agree with zero development. Not even even a message stating that "NWO is taking priority to just get it launched already."
This isn't about how many devs are working on it. This is about why isn't there anyone working on the game? If there are, why isn't there anyone talking to us about that work?
Youch. That's even scarier than anything I thought or wrote.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
We honestly can't even trust that because of the "core team" that, technically, works for all the games, even when they're working on stuff that isn't even compatible for CO.
Not to mention, and I don't mean this as an insult, cuz TT is the man, but it's kinda his job to lie to us. He's the community manager, not the community representative. He's supposed to manage us, and look how that's turned out so far with all our stellar community managers in the past. TT is the first good one we've had, but that doesn't mean the job description's changed any.
To be blunt, none of you or I know one way or another or someone would have posted cold. hard. facts. by now instead of going the route of "Well you see if we look at this, and then compare it to this, and then extrapolate this...we get a completely unquantifiable and unqualifiable guess".
I'm reasonably sure Brou and several others of us here can give the handle of 3 current CO devs without thinking too hard so calling comments of 2 devs a lie isn't much of a stretch. Where's my proof? Well if you look at the chat logs, and then compare it to today's date and then extrapolate the names....
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I came over from CoH and was happy to have a place to land. But at one point I saw a list of enhancements CO was going to make including for example, something as basic as Auras and yet that hasn't been touched yet.
So its a bit concerning.. I don't want to have fled from a ship going down to another that's starting to bail water if I can help it. And CO has so much promise in terms of power sets, archtetypes, etc.. if this were to just become an afterthought to Cryptic we don't have any other options IMO (DCUO is made for consoles, Marvel MMO will not let you create your own characters..).. And there are so many of us coming in from CoH I would hope Cryptic would seize on the opportunity to grow their subscriber base... we tend to be loyal paying subscribers in CoH so it boggles my mind that they wouldn't capitalize on that plus the loyal CO subscriber base that has been hee fo years.
Here's your $64,000 question: Where and how are they gonna spend their money?
-Xmas Toy Soldiers
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well in terms of actual content I agree we've had squat. I am inclined to believe this is the case due to NWO taking precedence, why this hasnt been supported or disproved by an official says two things to me.
1) They are concentrating on something for CO and want to get it right
2) No one but TT is even focusing on CO and it will likely stay that way for a few more months until NWO is done and dusted.
Either way, I believe things will get better, regardless of all the waiting I have done to play my main char (4 mnths+ almost). I want everything NAOW, but I can wait just a little while longer and I use the word "little" in a very clear sense of the word.
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I don't think anyone is stating anything as fact aside from the definition of a lie, but on the flip side, there will never be facts. Unless we can get into Cryptic's HR documents, that is. And that cuts both ways - can anyone prove they have more than 2? Can anyone prove Branflakes is telling the truth about their team size? Can anyone prove that CO is not failing utterly and completely and the only reason it's still going is the love of a handful of devs? Can anyone prove that all the yellow names currently posting on the boards aren't just TT trying to keep up appearance?
It's an asburd argument, and requires complete disregard of the fact that nobody is stating "2 devs" as a fact, but rather an opinion based on observation, so the call for proof is ridiculous.
I wish that it was a case of them working on something here, but the realist in me doesn't think that is it.
We are probably just on auto-pilot till NWO is out. Which is a total shame due to the COH situation.
I call CO the best bad option we have for something like CoH.
I'd like to just say CO is the best option we have for something like CoH but there are a lot of rough edges to the game that makes it *REALLY* hard to like at first. Even at second and some times at third. When working on my CoH crew I feel like have to badger them into it long enough to get them past the "wow does this game suck why are you playing it?" point.
Getting the Foundry would be a big deal. Ironing out the showstopper bugs in the TF equivalents comic series and adventure packs would go a long ways. Making sure it runs well in Wine/Crossover for the Mac people would be a boon (Transgaming has their own special hell waiting for them).
Now for me, while I have been here since launch, I really didnt play the game a lot, so I'm still finding new stuff, as probably are the others that came over from coh, but for people who actually played this game, i can see straining of patience. Maybe w can go on faith that the devs are working on something big, or maybe we are part of a group that gets privileged info, but insofar as the regular paying customer sees, communication has been minimal.
I'm fine with just assuming that there are only two.
In my opinion...it would be a worse scenario to find out there is actually a team of devs still on the game...considering the state it has been in.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
I say we go with two until Cryptic comes out and tells us how many we have.
this is pretty much what I was thinking if the number is so blatantly wrong why hasn't it been corrected like people did on STO forums.
Maybe there are more people working than we think but the silence is pretty much complete. A mandatory post every now and them for a maintenance or z-store promotion, beyond that I am hearing the crickets.
Fixing really visible game issues like invisible objects which would be offputting to a potential new player would be nice to.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2818231&postcount=3
That is not a statement of "I think there are 2 or 3 devs". That is "there are 2 or 3 devs left here". That's a statement of fact and it's not the only one just one of the most recent.
At any rate. I think Brou is on the money. People here for a long time now have a tendency to run their keyboard (read: their mouths) about stuff without the slightest shred of proof or credibility, then other people reference them and practically copy paste something that someone else just made up and the board collectively runs with it.
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Holding people to that standard on an internet forum? Wow. I take everything said by non-employees as opinion, including the OP's claim that people are lying, which means deliberately intending to deceive. Poor research is not lying, it's just ... par for the course for the internet.
Now that IS how it works. Still, it's not proof that people are actually lying.
Should it stop? Well, probably, but then again so should a lot of things that get posted regularly.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
edit to add: I'd like to point out that since this thread pretty much everybody here is, or has at least stated to be, in the "no, we don't mean there are literally only 2 devs working on CO" camp rather than the "yes, there are literally two people currently employed by Cryptics CO team."
That is were you are wrong. CO is not a susbtitute per CoH but its own game.
You can like it, hate it but for what it is not because you are looking for another game in it.You will not find it in here. It would like you did go to WoW hoping to find a substitute of CoH there. CO and CoH have two things in common : both were created by Cryptic and both are superhero mmog nothing more noithing less.
You are currently playing CO not the ghost of CoH
Yeah, Wow. I hold people to the standards I hold people to regardless of the venue. That said, that quoted bit earlier is a statement of fact in the English language the way it's written. That's not an opinion, that's grammar...unless someone wants to pull the second language reasoning...again...
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
Ummmm.....
We must really be running out of things to talk about.
Statements like this are made all the time, what makes this particular one special and worth making a thread about?
I don't get the impression that the person that made that statement intended it to be taken THAT seriously or scrutinized THAT closely. It seems like the "2-3 devs" is just a arbitrary number to demonstrate the the CO team is undersized.
If you guys want to split hairs, feel free, but don't be surprised if you end up bald (no offense kempo).
/thread?
EDIT:
/Trolled?
EDIT2:
U mad Brou?
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Eh, maybe I'm doing the same thing with the "circulating a lie" comment.
Agreed on what the words mean. Unfortunately, words get willy-nilly thrown around in forums regardless of what they mean. I doubt the user you quoted or anyone else can support the 2-devs claim with anything tangible.
The OP threw down the proof gauntlet, which is fine. Had he left it at "provide proof or shut up" I'd have supported him. However, he then went on to make the "lying" statement. As written, it's as bald-faced a statement as the one you quoted. He has provided no proof that people are lying (i.e., making statements they know to be false). That's the only thing in the OP I objected to.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Based on that grammar, I read that as hyperbole (1. obvious and intentional exaggeration.) and sarcasm (1. harsh or bitter derision or irony URL="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony"]a : the use of words to express something other than...the literal meaning[/URL[emphasis mine]), but if you really want to go letter rather than spirit of the remark then fine.
Fact: 1. something that actually exists; reality; truth:
Just the use of "2 or 3" shows it's inherent uncertainty (3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: [emphasis mine]), and therefore shouldn't be taken as common usage "fact."
If taken as fact, that still doesn't inherently mean it is true. (4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: [emphasis mine])
And that's all assuming in real life your standard is to ignore context or common usage in dialogue.
Come on man, you're not that guy.
I'm that guy; being difficult is my job.
heh,
I love you guys.
In fact the more devs we have the worse the situation is.
The more devs we have the more incompetent they must be given the development we actually get, or rather dont.
When I order a Coke and they say they only have Pepsi, Pepsi is what I substitute for the missing Coke, so Pepsi is a substitute for Coke while still being its own pop.
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
I don't think you have to worry. Anyone coming from CoX to CO will probably not miss that CO isn't CoX.
That CO doesn't have anything on the schedules, nor any communication from the devs on anything to look forwards to is the issue, I believe. Vehicles were the last content added, and some hint that there would be more vehicles added, then silence. No news, no dev input, and the Holiday event cut to almost nothing all make players wonder if the game has anyone at the helm anymore.
It's that 'Who's in charge here?' 'Ain't you??' scenerio that worries alot of people, especially players coming into the game who are wondering if they should invest in another game about to be yanked out from under them.
This is another problem with the internet -- people expecting a response to their queries Now!. People who are expecting responses during or right after the holiday season are exercising unreasonable expectations based on zero tolerance for how business and life work. However, the complaints seem to have gotten more and more strident over the last 2-3 weeks.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
When I first joined CO after launch, there seemed to be so much promise; so to come back after so many years and see that they appear to have abandoned the potential of CO is saddening. That coupled with coming from a game that was full steam ahead and then had the rug pulled from under us (even "War Witch" from CoH in an interview said it came as a surprise as they were making a profit which means enough to cover the devs, development, and money left over to add to the bottom line).
So I don't want to go crazy putting my time, money, and lets face it, heart, into yet another MMO where the owning company is as quiet as a night in the country, I just hear crickets whenever questions come up.
I just sent a note to Jack Emmett's Facebook id in the hopes (though realistically, highly improbable) of getting a response. I mean, you have players coming from another superhero MMO who are dying for a new home, have shown they will be loyal as a community, and Cryptic doesn't take advantage of that? Worrisome..very
It's hard to fault players for expecting such when a companion game by the same company, sharing the same chat servers and with shared players is getting exactly that. Makes people wonder at the complete silence on this end.
The reverse could be asked of you. Prove that there's more than two people working as devs on CO.
We both know that what you're asking, and the reverse, can't be proven by anyone posting in this forum. It'd require intervention from a Cryptic employee.
So both, 'there's only two devs working on CO' and 'there's more than two devs working on CO' could be called lies if you really want to go that route.
There are, however, a large number of things that suggest CO has largely been abandoned by its makers with only a very small number of things indicating the reverse and that, I think, is far more important than specifics like the exact number of people working on CO and whether or not comments made by players are intentionally dishonest.
I'm not talking about long-haul things, just the current period. And I am faulting players for wanting a response during the holidays, regardless of what personnel assigned to another game are doing or not doing.
Some may remember the long silence just before and for some time after the STO launch. I certainly do. I won't profess to know that something similar is going on with CO now, but it could be.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
So Brou, prove that everyone is lying rather than spreading rumor.
It boils down to this. The more devs we have, the sadder our current state actually seems.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
People are so mad and demanding because it is something that is easily fixed, All that a dev needs to do is post anything to do with what is going on. Even if it is we are working on things, it is something. Of course some people will complain, because people will complain about anything, but I feel if our worries were awknowledged it would do alot to settle things down.
It would be nice to know if ANYTHING is coming and what that is.
How dare he question the unfounded rumors taken as fact! Oi.
A list of Cryptic devs. This list is quite old, so I combed through it and googled the names of all of these people to check if they still worked on CO.
Robobo/Rob Overmeyer- Steeped down as Exec producer, but still a dev, as of Jun 16th. Massively's Article including this.
Tumerboy- Gone to STO. Post demonstrating he's there and not here.
Stokeman/Brad Stokan- Our new Exec Producer, see first link.
Lexeme- Nothing could be found. Apologies
Ame-Lead designer. Last seen March 9th. Nothing further.
Akinos- Systems Designer. Last seen June 8th. His last post.
Gentleman Crush- Systems designer. Last seen Aug 10th. Last post was the Nighthawk AT.
[Edit on G-Crush]*Update* the Above information is incorrect, Gentleman Crush posted after my October 1st activity cutoff.
GMTiyshen- CO Community Rep. Obviously not here anymore, being that we have Trailturtle. Post confirming this, post #3 Also check the post after this containing Tiyshen's name in STO devs.
H2orat- Video production manager. Moved to STO. He's in the list.
Dominus Carnifex- Nothing could be found.
Drannic- Moved to STO. Check the chart on h2orat.
Blue_Fire- Moved to STO. See above.
RavenAkurei- Last seen July 12th. While the post is archived, everyone refers to the dev as RA, and google agrees with them.
ANUBIS- Environment Artist. Unknown. Last thread not found. Apologies.
Splosions- He makes Splosions, apparently. The 4th post in this thread also stated that he is active.
NisDiddums- Last seen on This PTS update For those of you who can't see it, it's pretty regular. Posted on October 26th. I'd consider him still developing.
So yeah. 5 stolen from STO, 8(Edit:7) of those remaining I consider to be inactive or missing. This leaves Stokeman,, Gentleman Crush, NisDiddums and Splosions. That meet my communication cutoff date of 3 -5 months or so. This amounts to 3(Edit: 4) devs, including our semi-Community mod that we share with someone else: Trailturtle. This Doesn't include people joining the CO dev team, because honestly, in my 3 years in CO, I've never heard of such a thing.
There's your answer. Took me about 2 hours of googling to find it, Brou.
TL:DR: (No for realsies, 4.) devs, and a part-time Community Mod.
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
So, you are saying that rumors are spread with the deliberate and malicious intent to deceive?
To create a false or misleading impression, yup.