I do understand what everyone is saying, however, let me offer an analogy.
Imagine you sign up for a hockey league. It's just for fun, there's not really anything at stake. You then find that Sidney Crosby has joined your team.
Sid is the lead center, and every single game, he takes the puck off the faceoff, and dangles the whole other team, scoring at will and then repeating that trick. He never passes, and he never leaves the ice. If one of his teammates actually DOES come near the puck, he strips it and goes off on his own again.
The team wins every game, but do you think the rest of the team would be enjoying the game? They're never able to touch the puck, or contribute anything to the game.
Personally, I wouldn't find that fun. The probelm isn't Sid, though. It's the league's fault, allowing Sid to play at that level.
That's what's happening in alerts (and probably normal teams, too - I just solo most of the time). That one guy is taking on the entire map, leaving the rest of the team with nothing to do, just like Sid's hypothetical teammates in my analogy.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
While I agree with the first sentence, I'm not sure there is a lot of evidence to support the second one. If most of the team is not having fun, where are they complaining? You have not garnered a lot of support in this thread. And people DO complain. kaizerin may agree there is too much dps, but he is not doing so because he cannot get an attack in in an alert.
Look, I get that you are unhappy with the state of some things in the game, including the topic of this thread. There is not a poster in this thread who has never had an aspect of this game they were unhappy with. Cryptic's fixes of such issues are slow to nonexistent. We have all had to learn to work around various issues. The posters in this thread have offered suggestions to you on how to do so with this issue. You've said your piece, and Cryptic has either heard you or not. Even if all the other posters had agreed with you, I would not hold my breath waiting for a "fix."
In fact, Cryptic seems to be buffing, not nerfing powers. Lead Tempest made your list because it was buffed recently. It may be part of a plan to make the game overall harder, but they feel they need to bring weaker powers up to the standards of the stronger ones first. Time (maybe a long time) will tell on that one.
You may be right. As you say, I've said my piece, and I think my reasoning is clear enough. I'll leave it at that.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
You may be right. As you say, I've said my piece, and I think my reasoning is clear enough. I'll leave it at that.
Find me in-game @titotito whenever I'm on, and and lets do some Elite TT or Vipers Nest... There that Sidney Crosby guy will get insta-***** if he's not careful and you can fully charge all your powers without the worry that Sidney Crosby will kill them before you.
I was not referring to one single event. I was referring to a pattern of events over a lengthy period. The comment you are focusing on was in response to someone else.
The comment, "I am focusing on," is in the OP before anyone else said anything for you to respond to.
The point remains the same. Certain powers do far too much damage, far too rapidly. That this is so diminishes the ability of other players to participate.
A godly tank can make the content of the alert trivial - for HIM. His presence doesn't limit the other players in any way. They can still act and fight the enemy - probably more freely, in fact, as he would likely have their attention.
And yet the tank renders those other players irrelevant, which you referred to as being the problem.
You're right, some builds will excel at some things that other builds won't. That wasn't the point, though. However you slice it, the purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun. If most of a team is being rendered unable to do anything, they're not having much fun.
The rest of the team is not rendered unable to do anything. They may choose to act in a fashion (as you have described your own actions) that leaves them with nothing to do however.
If I don't have fun knowing that the team's tank could do the alert alone, without my doing a thing, does that mean that the tank should be kicked from the alert ? Or should I just do the best I can and glean what enjoyment I can from the mission ?
You keep speaking of balance and yet a tough defensive passive Hybrid build can handle more of the game's content solo than can an offensive build. If the defensive specs are MORE capable than the offensive specs, any theoretical imbalance that might exist is not on the part of the offensive specs.
The point I'm making with regard to PnP Champions is that active points limited the powers to a certain effectiveness. Here, there's no such limit. It's like giving one player on a team 100 active points but still limiting everyone else to 60.
Active points did no such thing. One character might have a 60 active point power that would struggle to KO a Viper agent, while another character's 60 active point power could wipe an entire villain team in seconds. With 60 active points I can build a power that vastly outshines a 20d6 energy blast (100 active points). The GM, not the active points, is the balancing factor.
The thread began with one player capable of leaving the rest of the team, including my character (who isn't actually a tank, in all honesty, he's a hybrid) unable to do much of anything. That hasn't changed. It's always been because these powers, specced for DPS, are doing too much damage, too fast. It's out of balance.
Now, it may not need much. Perhaps root the character when he uses it. Perhaps add a cooldown of a few seconds. Increase the endurance cost a little, or reduce the maximum number of stacks of extra toxic damage. Any of these might be enough to bring it in line with the contet, and with other powers.
With other powers I can:
deliver 20k single target alpha strikes from long range.
deliver 10k AoE strikes from medium range.
deliver 15k AoE strikes from long range.
deliver massive AOE melee damage (think 3k ticks per half second) that obliterate all trash mobs in a second or less.
and so on.
The power (you seem to be focusing on just Epidemic now) in question is not particularly OP compared to other options. It happens to excel at mopping up trash mobs that many powers (even those often complained about as underperforming) can deal with nearly instantaneously.
To be honest, I dislike Epidemic myself. Its visual effects clutter up the screen far too much IMO. But its pretty easy to build to wipe trash mobs with powers in pretty much ever set in the game.
I've read through most of the thread and glossed over the rest so forgive me if I missed it, but the OP only mentions Flight as his travel power.
Flight, even at rank 3, is horrendously slow compared to the ground based travel powers while in combat. The OP has stated that mobs die before he can do anything useful. Perhaps it's not a matter of too much dps, but more a matter of the combat speeds for flight type travel powers are too slow relative to acrobatics/super speed?
I've read through most of the thread and glossed over the rest so forgive me if I missed it, but the OP only mentions Flight as his travel power.
Flight, even at rank 3, is horrendously slow compared to the ground based travel powers while in combat. The OP has stated that mobs die before he can do anything useful. Perhaps it's not a matter of too much dps, but more a matter of the combat speeds for flight type travel powers are too slow relative to acrobatics/super speed?
While I'm not sure it would address the OP's concerns about charge-ups, gods of gaming yes, flight is sooo slooow.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
While I agree flight is slow, I think that's appropriate. It has advantages ground based travel powers do not.
It also isn't the reason for what I'm observing. Even if I reach a group of foes before the epidemic guy, it makes little difference. In two seconds, he's finished off his whole spawn, while I may have thrown one punch. In one more second he's next to me, and my spawn evaporates before I can do anything else.
Anyone remember the beach scene from Mad Max? The one where the blond ganger (I forget his name) is carefully lining up his shot at a mannequin with his pistol, and then Johnny the boy jumps in and blasts it with a shotgun.
That's what this feels like. Someone else is stealing my fun. That's a crude way of putting it, but it kind of amounts to that.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
While I'm not sure it would address the OP's concerns about charge-ups, gods of gaming yes, flight is sooo slooow.
Not half as bad as Jet Boots/Pack. Top speed is good, but by thunder, that acceleration...
The devs need to watch the Marvel movies with Iron Man and note how his jets work. That is, quicker acceleration, less fine conrtol, tougher deceleration, etc. But then, that's a whole other thread.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
That's what this feels like. Someone else is stealing my fun. That's a crude way of putting it, but it kind of amounts to that.
If it isn't fun, stop doing it. Easy!
That you are not enjoying a particular game activity simply means you should stop doing it, not that you should try to make it less fun for those who are enjoying it.
Don't try to break the other kid's toys; it only makes you out to be a meanie-head that no one wants around.
__________
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
It also isn't the reason for what I'm observing. Even if I reach a group of foes before the epidemic guy, it makes little difference. In two seconds, he's finished off his whole spawn, while I may have thrown one punch. In one more second he's next to me, and my spawn evaporates before I can do anything else.
Anyone remember the beach scene from Mad Max? The one where the blond ganger (I forget his name) is carefully lining up his shot at a mannequin with his pistol, and then Johnny the boy jumps in and blasts it with a shotgun.
That's what this feels like. Someone else is stealing my fun. That's a crude way of putting it, but it kind of amounts to that.
That's not true. According to http://www.stockyann.net/Vrac/CO.php , Epidemic ticks 4 times in 2 seconds. Assuming a slight lead of 0.24 seconds, it would possible to do 4 hits of Beatdown in that timeframe. With no lead, 4 hits of Defensive Combo is still possible.
It would also be possible to fully charge a Havoc Stomp and land it before the last hit of Epidemic (Fully charged Havoc Stomp = 1.83sec, Epidemic = 2sec). Assuming both characters are built and geared equally, if 4 hits of Epidemic are enough to kill the spawn alone, a single, fully charged Havoc Stomp would have one-shotted them altogether, in 91% of the time.
That said, a charged up attack that self-roots the user should do more damage than an attack like Sword Cyclone, which allows for mobility at the same time, and I do feel there is a disparity there. However, it seems to have been grossly exaggerated by the OP.
And the funny thing is still, that the OP was IMHO talking about LEAD TEMPEST, or is it just
my bad english that i don't think Epidemic is a "flippy shooty thing" ?
And the funny thing is still, that the OP was IMHO talking about LEAD TEMPEST, or is it just my bad english that i don't think Epidemic is a "flippy shooty thing" ?
It was a list of things. In other words, OP claims the following are all too powerful:
Epidemic
The "flippy shooty thing"
The "one with the whirling swords"
Personally, I have a challenge for the OP: Show us the combat logs. Show us that one person is doing one AoE that melts all Tough rated trash, including Super Villains, in under 2 seconds. If you can, find out what build they're using. Bring hard data to the table, not just your impressions. Also, for the record, Burst Alerts don't count for this, only Smashes or Grabs.
Now, I've seen trash in Alerts get melted hard and fast, but it generally involved 2-4 people stacking the AoEs. I suspect the same thing is happening here and the OP is attributing the killing potential of a pile of powers to the most visible/obvious power. Either that, or the OP is running Bursts and doesn't realize that absolutely everything in a Burst dies in seconds.
It was a list of things. In other words, OP claims the following are all too powerful:
Epidemic
The "flippy shooty thing"
The "one with the whirling swords"
Ahh .. ok.
However ... Lead Tempest to powerful .. the range is fun to pull 2-3 groups of mobs at once
but its damage was always more on the low side.
Else there a normally 2 kinds of henchmen in Smashes .. some die really fast, and some
take a bit longer .. the Shotgun Mobs in Black Fang Alert for example.
Call me crazy...but the faster we can finish Alerts the better.
When I see someone take out mobs in Alerts as fast as the OP suggests...I think "nice"...not "nerf".
Madness!
There's an off chance that some particular power combination is doing something ludicrous; it's happened before, it could happen again. I doubt that's actually the case, though, as other people would be doing the nerf call with hard numbers rather than "I think it needs a nerf because they killed my mobs in the Alert!"
okay, I figured it out, I have a solution for the OP and anyone who feels the same he does.
Anytime you enter an alert, check the levels of the other players. If there is anyone above a given level... say greater than 20... or 15... just leave. You can be the guy who refuses to do an alert with anything but low level players.
Win-win situation looks like to me.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
There's an off chance that some particular power combination is doing something ludicrous; it's happened before, it could happen again. I doubt that's actually the case, though, as other people would be doing the nerf call with hard numbers rather than "I think it needs a nerf because they killed my mobs in the Alert!"
Agreed.
Oh, and cool handle. I just reread the series (for the umpteenth time) a couple of weeks ago.
I don't wish to be rude but, the infernal powerset is a pretty powerful set atm, I think it has highest DoT of any powerset around (with new telepathy and fire running second place I think).
If there was a power which wiped out a boss along with the mobs in one fail swoop then clearly there would be a massive nerf needed to said power OR have the interactions dampened or something.
I agree with Vitality, the faster the opposition is taken out the better. It means you can focus directly on the boss and do more damage and hopefully win the instanced alert.
However as for DPS potency, certain DPS powers are very potent. Some examples:
As well as others, I think I'd only have a problem with Epidemic when a player beats me with it in a duel
I don't mind the DPS out put of players at all especially in Alerts with lower levels who through being a lower level cannot pull the weight of a fairly capable "level 30" team mate. High level DPS makes up for this issue.
However I will admit that sometimes, Epidemic wiping out my targets can be a little irritating, but then I start thinking and realise...OH! More time to kill boss >:3.
Most of the time it is the little Vargulfs with their grenade spam which really tick me off and I wish an Epidemic would just come along
Any way...I seem to recall you saying you were leaving? Are you staying?
Whether I'm staying or not is really not relevant to the discussion. However, if you must know, I resubbed for a month, back at the beginning of November. When it runs out, I'll be gone again.
However, I'll still be able to post on the forums, and I may actually play an archetype (now that I have another character slot - one of my characters made it to 40).
Again, not relevant to the discussion.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Hello all Ive been away a good while, not really back into the game too much yet but hoping a few new things added like vehicles will make the sub for a month worth it and my time.
Frankly the OP of this thread really is a reason to be put off of the game and here is why.
To a first year and occasionially on then off again player your tone hearkens back to the constant demand for nerfing in year one that really lead to the games most dire era as far as enjoying the game went.
You yourself say how your OP defensive nature is ok, but excessive DPS is wrong and hurts your enjoyment and that somehow is bad for the game.
You seem to forget PVP is a core aspect of CO, and in PvP to defeat great defense takes great offensive power. Not debuffs that take time to build up, not buffs that take time to build up. Just raw, unfathomable, unstoppable power.
You mention having made a superman build, perhaps that is true as far as your defense goes, but I promise you a properly made kryptonian homage build is anything but a pure tank. Well made ones usually focus on supermans superior speed and intel as much as his raw strength, they take into account his eye beams and frost breath, and usually use force powers colored red and set to the ehad for source to reflect the fact when superman wanted to he could level a star destroyer sized ship with a mere gaze. When superman used his fist he was holding back 90% of the time.
For my old and currently very dusty and probably out dated kryptonian style character I messed around with, I ahd little trouble super speeding into a group and frost breathing, or flying above and force blasting them from my eyes. I usually only melee thugs for amusement, and only use it all on big bad cosmics and the like. Hell my strongest melee punch is mainly used for a debuff effect on it, not as a main dps tool.
So frankly it sounds to me like again the issue is with yor build and how you percieve it deserves to work rather then the reality that it could be better both in optimal effect and in how you pay homage to one of the great golden age icons of comicdom.
When you seem to fail at something look first to yourself, not at those who succeeded where you faltered.
And remember for all the power of the last son of krypton, in the end he was just a puzzle to take apart by and the last thing he saw before being choked out was his best friends face.
Whether I'm staying or not is really not relevant to the discussion. However, if you must know, I resubbed for a month, back at the beginning of November. When it runs out, I'll be gone again.
However, I'll still be able to post on the forums, and I may actually play an archetype (now that I have another character slot - one of my characters made it to 40).
Again, not relevant to the discussion.
Well TBH it is quite relevant, there is little point asking for nerfs if your not staying...ruining other peoples fun then "running off" isnt fair so as the whole crux of your post is to nerf DPS, then surely you should be staying around for said nerf..
To the people, like Honestresearcher, who are complaining that tanks don't hold & pull agro/threat well enough in this game. I agree. Lots of people agree. And you can read more about an effort to fix that which has been around awhile and Cryptic DOES know about in my signature below.
However, Honestrearcher, more HP is foolish & lazy way to upgrade difficulty. Clarence is a good example of that in this game. The better way to do it is to improve NPC AI, and particularly make the NPC's make use of teamplay elements with tanks, melee DPS, ranged DPS, and healers or other support. Make the enemies block when a player is charging up an attack which knocks at them. Stuff like that.
That's what this feels like. Someone else is stealing my fun. That's a crude way of putting it, but it kind of amounts to that.
It's not crude, it's childish.
When you say stuff like that it sounds almost EXACTLY like stuff that used to be said on the World of Whatsitis (the word I'd write here is censored on this website) mage forums. You know the ones that lead to the coining of this phrase? "Less QQ, more pew-pew."
Which coincidentally is what you'd be doing, that is if you were staying an not "leaving".
Speaking of which you said you're comments about not leaving were not relevant?
Well TBH it is quite relevant, there is little point asking for nerfs if your not staying...ruining other peoples fun then "running off" isnt fair so as the whole crux of your post is to nerf DPS, then surely you should be staying around for said nerf..
I agree with most of what you said there (and could go on to explain how it goes deeper by several magnitudes, but I wont as I could do several paragraphs on that alone), but not the part about how players with several years of play time should perform better than players without. Say what you will about the balance of investment in that area, it's flat out unfair when newer players who have a willingness to learn and improve are in some way heavily shut out from being competitive by a large time investment. Even skill, for that matter.
Sadly, one of my favorite ARTS style games is dieing right now because of this, both in terms of skill and "gear." SMNC is a game with a LoL style unlock system, and while it's not terribly difficult once you actually learn it, the learning curve is absolutely brutal. The mass majority of players out there being unwilling to spend any real time learning and getting good at the game, has led to the population count dwindling to the 100-300 count, which is horrible for a F2P game of any sort.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Whether I'm staying or not is really not relevant to the discussion. However, if you must know, I resubbed for a month, back at the beginning of November. When it runs out, I'll be gone again.
However, I'll still be able to post on the forums, and I may actually play an archetype (now that I have another character slot - one of my characters made it to 40).
So on the 11th, you quit, but now you'll still be here on the forums to share just how very very concerned you are.
Again, not relevant to the discussion.
Nope, you dropped a drama bomb two and a half weeks ago and flounced out the door, and yet you're still here on the forums and you still plan on being here on the forums, so very very concerned that we should stop liking what you don't like.
I'd say its very relevant as to your intentions with regards to this discussion.
So on the 11th, you quit, but now you'll still be here on the forums to share just how very very concerned you are.
Nope, you dropped a drama bomb two and a half weeks ago and flounced out the door, and yet you're still here on the forums and you still plan on being here on the forums, so very very concerned that we should stop liking what you don't like.
I'd say its very relevant as to your intentions with regards to this discussion.
So, clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Since this bit of minutae is of such consequence to you, I'll explain in more detail.
I was a subscriiber. Financial realities forced me to not renew my subscription until recently. I had been missing the game, and was eager to check out the vehicles. When I found that the game was not any better off than it was 6 months ago, that there were still balance issues (like the one I am pointing out in this thread - an issue they said they would be addressing) and that vehicles were just more store fodder, I was disappointed.
My subscription will probably run out again soon. However, in the last month, one of my characters reached L40, so I now have an open slot for an archetype character. Thus, I will probably be able to play for free where I couldn't before (all my characters are freeform).
So, I will be quitting, but still playing, and if the finances allow, I'll resubscribe to get access to my freeforms.
In either case, I'll be concerned about balance issues because of two things:
1. I want to enjoy the game, and unbalanced powers undermines the ability to enjoy the game, as it behaves inconsistently.
2. An unbalanced game is skating on thin ice, because people will become disenchanted with disbalance and move to another game. This represents the threat of the game's closure, which means NO ONE will be able to enjoy it. Granted, it's a worst case scenario, but not impossible.
In other words, I'm interested in the balance of the game for all concerned, whether I'm playing or not.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
So, clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Since this bit of minutae is of such consequence to you, I'll explain in more detail.
@spyralpegacyon, actually reinforces a concern some people have been posting about.
The only difference is that your arguement has been simplified or brought down to it's most basic roots which is you arent subbing any more but will be playing as an AT player and you will still be on forums, you want balance by nerfing a particular play style which I think it quite key to the "fast action paced-ness" of CO, namely DPS, because Epidemic and Lead Tempest take out lots of people in Alerts..
The OP/unbalanced powers you are talking about will most likely affect you in Alerts and very minimally in Open world content. Being an AT player for almost two years, I dont think I ever complained about DPS being "too potent" because in most cases it was DPS or death.
1. I want to enjoy the game, and unbalanced powers undermines the ability to enjoy the game, as it behaves inconsistently.
I'd say this only applies when you are in regular contact with these "misbehaving powers", which since you will be playing as an AT, you wont be using (unless you go and buy Scourge or Specialist AT's). Some powers in CO do need to be toned down with regard to how easy they wipe mobs, but thats an AI mob difficulty thing not so much the power itself, I think.
2. An unbalanced game is skating on thin ice, because people will become disenchanted with disbalance and move to another game. This represents the threat of the game's closure, which means NO ONE will be able to enjoy it. Granted, it's a worst case scenario, but not impossible.
In other words, I'm interested in the balance of the game for all concerned, whether I'm playing or not.
PvP is an example of an unbalanced mine field from what I have seen and experienced (getting my rear end kicked loads) this sort of has stopped people from PvPing but I'd say a good to fair amount of people still engage in PvP even if it is not balanced. I see the point here, but I doubt 3 or 4 powers will cause any serious issues, in time they will all be balanced out. It just takes someone to constantly abuse it then it will get super nerfed. Take Crowd Control Mechanic and PvP as an example, two main holds were abused one was very powerful the other had an advantage which allowed it to become its own entity and fire off control effects whilst allowing for movement. This caused an upset and now the power has been decimated.
I've already said I'm clearly in the minority, and that I agree with many who disliked my suggestion, that there's more going on than I had originally considered. Despite this, I have to keep coming back to respond to people who insist on telling me what I am saying (when I actually thought I knew that myself...).
I want to see balance in the game, because I find it distinctly irritating when there's something not "right." It's like having a pebble in my shoe, I can ignore it, but it's going to annoy me all the same.
To me, the most compelling argument is that people already find it fun. Who am I to rain on their parade? I'm nobody, so while I still think there's a balance problem, I can leave the issue sit with the devs and the players.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
I've already said I'm clearly in the minority, and that I agree with many who disliked my suggestion, that there's more going on than I had originally considered. Despite this, I have to keep coming back to respond to people who insist on telling me what I am saying (when I actually thought I knew that myself...).
So then just stop. Trust me, nobody is forming opinions about you based on what someone says about you on the forums, because nobody really cares. Hell, as I'm typing this I allready can't remember your forum handle... lemme just glance up a bit... yeah colonelmarik, just let the thread die.. or let it live on without you... does it really matter?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
found that the game was not any better off than it was 6 months ago, that there were still balance issues (like the one I am pointing out in this thread - an issue they said they would be addressing)
You keep saying this. You don't happen to have a source, perhaps? Because i've been here the whole time and cant recall any official word from anyone at Cryptic saying powers like Epidemic are over preforming. Or that power sets that have had their reviews and updates in the last year (like supernatural with epidemic) are officially considered over powered.
Any talks of balance generally have been focused on sets still waiting for their pass. In most cases these balance passes have IMPROVED performance and damage. So this runs counter to your arguments.
In fact, the flippy gun power you mentioned. Recently, within the last week or three, got a significant UPGRADE. So if there really has been official word that balance would be addressed. Perhaps the mistake is yours in your understanding of what that meant.
I have great idea.
Fix Tank much better Damage per Second and make it squishy,
Fix DPS much low Damage per Second and make it viable,
and then he will be satisfied. Probably.
Dear OP, I have refrained from saying anything and was just quietly reading this thread to watch its development.
However, I am putting up this post to point out something which you apparently do not see.
You asked for BALANCE. I have actually pointed out before in other threads that this is IMPOSSIBLE in a game where the sheer number of powers and the ways they perform are so different.
Some have higher overal damage but smaller area of effect, others have high dps but single target. Some have high dps single target with small side effect to aoe so on and so forth. We revel in the variety. If you want to ensure full balance, then everyone should have just 1 set of powers that all will use maybe throw in some graphic and animation variations.
To compound this issue, the existence of freeforms over ATs will further upset this balance. We nerf one power, simply means another will rise to take its place. We see that all the time and when you are here long enough, you will also see this. If epidemic, lead tempest and hurricane are so deadly, please feel free to take them on your freeform but if financially you cannot re-subscribe, you can still play ATs with these powers.
As others have pointed out, if your team mates are able to clear the mobs faster, it means you, as a tank (if you are even a tank) can focus on aggroing the boss while the rest are killing mobs). However, if you are a DPS, my question will be: did you pick an AOE dps power and if not, why not?
If the issue is you are not able to get to the enemy fast enough, then it will be a travel power issue.
The OP takes it on the stressing side,
Personally when I play my FF tank in Alerts and I see dpsers that can manage it, it's sunglasses and cool drink day. :cool:
And this is why now i feel really happy and somewhat relieved that the devs normally don't listen us; seriously this thread and the one about taking away two powers from Free Form are ridiculously bad ideas that would left this game with future of City of Heroes, (out of curiosity, are you a vengeful ex-CoH player?).
From what i understood the OP is camplaining about kill-steal, complaning about the epidemic-guy that kill his and OP group of enemies in less of 10 sec; and i want to say some things that the OP apparently haven't notice about this game;first tanks are meats shields that don't deal much damage, second dps is a glass cannon (well less in this game) that lives in a constant kill or be killed (especially in this game) and is still vulnerable to one-shots, third have you considered changing to dps (ranged or melee) role so you can deal more damage, or at least using roomsweeper(is so fun), if you hadn't notice you can use almost any power set in any role.
Oh well, since you apparently are going to roll an AT, please for God sake, choose the unleashed with R3 eye of the storm and high crit chance and severity.
Hybrid DPS with a defensive passive really isn't half bad. Pretty sure a Hybrid with Invul using Dragon's Wrath and Form of the Tempest isn't far behind a Ranged DPS with Shadow Form using Ebon Ruin and Concentration, if at all.
Of course, it's melee vs. ranged, but the point of going with a defensive passive is to be able to stand in melee and take the heat in the first place.
I have great idea.
Fix Tank much better Damage per Second and make it squishy,
Fix DPS much low Damage per Second and make it viable,
and then he will be satisfied. Probably.
Well, do Epi-DPS by yourself then...
Somehow, I don't think having everyone trivializing the content is a credible fix. There's too much damage as it is. That's what I've been saying all along. Enemies don't last long enough for other players to do anything.
But then, it seems clear no one cares.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Somehow, I don't think having everyone trivializing the content is a credible fix. There's too much damage as it is. That's what I've been saying all along. Enemies don't last long enough for other players to do anything.
But then, it seems clear no one cares.
I think you should test how Epi-DPS works by your self. It's not so good as you think except for all Legion's and Vigilante's with all purple Mods. Those takes like more then 20k in G tho.
Well, all Legion's and Vigilante's with all purple Mods will become OP in any kind of build. xD
I think you should test how Epi-DPS works by your self. It's not so good as you think
It is, however, considerably better than the AoE maintain in Might, Shockwave, in that it has a bigger area, works as a circle, not a cone, and flat out does more damage. Also, Shockwave is taggged as Ranged damage, not melee, so melee toggles boost it less. While it may take a heavy gear investment to generate the effects the OP mentioned, Epi does better DPS to groups than anything in the Might set.
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I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
It is, however, considerably better than the AoE maintain in Might, Shockwave, in that it has a bigger area, works as a circle, not a cone, and flat out does more damage. Also, Shockwave is taggged as Ranged damage, not melee, so melee toggles boost it less. While it may take a heavy gear investment to generate the effects the OP mentioned, Epi does better DPS to groups than anything in the Might set.
This is an unreasonable comparison though.
Both of them are considered ranged damage and scale off of Ego so it is strange to say one is better because of it. One may however argue that a ranged skill does not belong in the might set (would be an off topic discussion).
Shockwave has twice the range
Shockwave has a knock up effect
Shockwave can have challenging strikes, most (all?) powers with the challenging strikes advantage deal a little bit less damage than their counterparts.
Due to the reasons listed above, it is quite clear that Shockwave should deal noticably less damage. I fail to see a problem here.
Both of them are considered ranged damage and scale off of Ego so it is strange to say one is better because of it. One may however argue that a ranged skill does not belong in the might set (would be an off topic discussion).
Not really off topic because the nature of how the power scales means that it is going to do less damage in the hands of those taking it for a might based character.
Shockwave has twice the range
Which is still a fraction of the area of the power it is being compared to. A cone with twice the range of a circle is still covering less area.
Shockwave has a knock up effect
Which is largely irrelevant to the OP's build type. A knock up is of limited value whern being compared to defeating the foes much more quickly. If you have to decide between defeating your foe OR knocking him, one is clearly the superior (from a standpoint of character efficiency). Cryptic's spreadsheets have long overvalued knocks in PvE balance.
Shockwave can have challenging strikes, most (all?) powers with the challenging strikes advantage deal a little bit less damage than their counterparts.
The ability to take CS is not a balancing factor because you can compare the two poers without CS. Since the discussion is damage, taking CS would mean doing less damage and so compare even less favorably.
Due to the reasons listed above, it is quite clear that Shockwave should deal noticably less damage. I fail to see a problem here.
Area of a 25 foot circle: 25^2*pi=625*3.14=1932.5
Area of a 50 foot cone with an angle of 90 degrees: 50^2*pi/4=2500*3.14/4=1932.5
Do you see the massive advantage of a 25 foot circle? No? No? Why are we arguing basic math?
As for knock up and challenging strikes. That is an entirely valid discussion but the fact is that picking those kinds of powers will give you less damage. That is definately not specific to might powers or shockwave, it's just how the game is balanced. I personally think this is as it should be but that is a matter of opinion.
Conclusion:
If you want to deal more damage, don't pick tanking powers, pick damage-dealer powers.
By the way, all my characters are tanks and "suffer" from not being quite as good at dealing damage as pure damage dealers.
Considering the OP's complaint, and the topic of the thread, no, it is not unreasonable. He is using might and fhas the subjective impression of not contributing. Maintains are better than charge-ups for sustained DPS in the vast majority of cases. Shockwave is the only maintain in the frame the OP claims to use, and DPS is the thread topic. You can hold onto your assertion if you will, but this does not make the comparison unreasonable in this context. For the rest, I'll defer to Ash's response.
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I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Area of a 25 foot circle: 25^2*pi=625*3.14=1932.5
Area of a 50 foot cone with an angle of 90 degrees: 50^2*pi/4=2500*3.14/4=1932.5
Do you see the massive advantage of a 25 foot circle? No? No? Why are we arguing basic math?
As for knock up and challenging strikes. That is an entirely valid discussion but the fact is that picking those kinds of powers will give you less damage. That is definately not specific to might powers or shockwave, it's just how the game is balanced. I personally think this is as it should be but that is a matter of opinion.
Conclusion:
If you want to deal more damage, don't pick tanking powers, pick damage-dealer powers.
By the way, all my characters are tanks and "suffer" from not being quite as good at dealing damage as pure damage dealers.
The issue with Cone v. circle is not so much area but getting the mobs into the area. A circle of Epidemic's size is much better for this than a longer cone like Shockwave. As to the Challenging Strikes power doing less damage, One Hundred Hands would like a word with you.
The real discrepancy between Shockwave and Epidemic is that Shockwave was put in by the original dev team and has not significantly changed in effect. Epidemic and One Hundred Hands were put in much later, and for whatever reason, just do more damage.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Just finished the Red Dawn alert on my Night Avenger-type freeform character. He's set up for DPS. One of the other players had Hurricane, apparently also set up for DPS.
I jumped ahead, dropped some gas pellets and started charging a hidden strike (I don't recall the name of the attack ). He swooped in and hit hurricane AFTER I'd started charging the attack (which has no tap effect). The commando I was targeting was dead before the attack fired, along with the rest of the spawn. The boss bad guy was dead before I could reach him, but to be fair, the rest of the group, including Hurricane boy, were already attacking him.
This pattern repeated itself on the wolf guy, the robot guy and again on the three bosses at the end. Against them, I couldn't stay in range to hit them with the big attack (they kept running all around to get at the hurricane guy), so I had to hit them with my combo attacks. Either way, it was pretty underwhelming. Practically every time I tried to do ANYTHING, the foes were dead before I could.
Wasn't much fun.
Take from that what you like.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Just finished the Red Dawn alert on my Night Avenger-type freeform character. He's set up for DPS. One of the other players had Hurricane, apparently also set up for DPS.
I jumped ahead, dropped some gas pellets and started charging a hidden strike (I don't recall the name of the attack ). He swooped in and hit hurricane AFTER I'd started charging the attack (which has no tap effect). The commando I was targeting was dead before the attack fired, along with the rest of the spawn. The boss bad guy was dead before I could reach him, but to be fair, the rest of the group, including Hurricane boy, were already attacking him.
This pattern repeated itself on the wolf guy, the robot guy and again on the three bosses at the end. Against them, I couldn't stay in range to hit them with the big attack (they kept running all around to get at the hurricane guy), so I had to hit them with my combo attacks. Either way, it was pretty underwhelming. Practically every time I tried to do ANYTHING, the foes were dead before I could.
Wasn't much fun.
Take from that what you like.
We all get that you're frustrated. But the truth of the matter is you're placing blame elsewhere without looking at yourself first.
You can't really balance superhero damage - just watch any of the superhero movies released in the last decade - it took an entire invasion army just to push the avengers to the limit. Fighting one super villain is usually the only time you see a real slugfest. Any boss fight in CO ultimately breaks down to tanking and hitting an hp bag of varying size.
If you're struggling as bad as you describe to do anything productive - that's a player issue. You can blame this power or that - but if you don't bother to actually take the time to learn the actual mechanics or put in some effort to see what you YOURSELF can improve, then all you'll end up doing is complaining.
Just finished the Red Dawn alert on my Night Avenger-type freeform character. He's set up for DPS. One of the other players had Hurricane, apparently also set up for DPS.
I jumped ahead, dropped some gas pellets and started charging a hidden strike (I don't recall the name of the attack ). He swooped in and hit hurricane AFTER I'd started charging the attack (which has no tap effect). The commando I was targeting was dead before the attack fired, along with the rest of the spawn. The boss bad guy was dead before I could reach him, but to be fair, the rest of the group, including Hurricane boy, were already attacking him.
This pattern repeated itself on the wolf guy, the robot guy and again on the three bosses at the end. Against them, I couldn't stay in range to hit them with the big attack (they kept running all around to get at the hurricane guy), so I had to hit them with my combo attacks. Either way, it was pretty underwhelming. Practically every time I tried to do ANYTHING, the foes were dead before I could.
Wasn't much fun.
Take from that what you like.
You don't seem to understand that Alerts are random co-op teams, right?
Either you adapt and happy the Alert had been completed in the time limit or rage-qq because you can't adapt your gameplay.
It seems you've chosen the second way.
I too am just not seeing the super fast take downs.....I see people do about average speed take downs but nothing super fast.
Yes I have seen people solo and have soloed the mobs before...but everyone can do that if you cant...well thats a build issue...the big bosses are tougher for me...but that is usualy because I am level 15 doing an alert.
I think the OP needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
Seriously this sounds like build envy...as in his character isnt doing as well as someone else is so its not right and it cant be his fault..for not changing his role or maybe trying to play a healer and not being able to dish out damage.
Good gravy....it takes me sometimes hours of experimenting to come up with a good combination of powers...especialy when trying to use specific power sets...yes...i use freeform alot...but go figure
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
I too am just not seeing the super fast take downs.....I see people do about average speed take downs but nothing super fast.
Yes I have seen people solo and have soloed the mobs before...but everyone can do that if you cant...well thats a build issue...the big bosses are tougher for me...but that is usualy because I am level 15 doing an alert.
I think the OP needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
Seriously this sounds like build envy...as in his character isnt doing as well as someone else is so its not right and it cant be his fault..for not changing his role or maybe trying to play a healer and not being able to dish out damage.
Good gravy....it takes me sometimes hours of experimenting to come up with a good combination of powers...especialy when trying to use specific power sets...yes...i use freeform alot...but go figure
It smells like waffles.
It's not build envy. I'm quite capable of soloing these foes too (though, not nearly so fast - I'm set up for more resiliency). I'm also entirely capable of just taking one of these powers and wiping everything out in 2 seconds - but it wouldn't be any more balanced if I was the one doing it.
Again, though, I recognize that it's not likely to change. There's too many things they have to put on the store. Development time isn't going to be allocated to anything remotely like balance (especially if STO is any indicator).
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Comments
Imagine you sign up for a hockey league. It's just for fun, there's not really anything at stake. You then find that Sidney Crosby has joined your team.
Sid is the lead center, and every single game, he takes the puck off the faceoff, and dangles the whole other team, scoring at will and then repeating that trick. He never passes, and he never leaves the ice. If one of his teammates actually DOES come near the puck, he strips it and goes off on his own again.
The team wins every game, but do you think the rest of the team would be enjoying the game? They're never able to touch the puck, or contribute anything to the game.
Personally, I wouldn't find that fun. The probelm isn't Sid, though. It's the league's fault, allowing Sid to play at that level.
That's what's happening in alerts (and probably normal teams, too - I just solo most of the time). That one guy is taking on the entire map, leaving the rest of the team with nothing to do, just like Sid's hypothetical teammates in my analogy.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
You may be right. As you say, I've said my piece, and I think my reasoning is clear enough. I'll leave it at that.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Find me in-game @titotito whenever I'm on, and and lets do some Elite TT or Vipers Nest... There that Sidney Crosby guy will get insta-***** if he's not careful and you can fully charge all your powers without the worry that Sidney Crosby will kill them before you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
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Responses above.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Flight, even at rank 3, is horrendously slow compared to the ground based travel powers while in combat. The OP has stated that mobs die before he can do anything useful. Perhaps it's not a matter of too much dps, but more a matter of the combat speeds for flight type travel powers are too slow relative to acrobatics/super speed?
While I'm not sure it would address the OP's concerns about charge-ups, gods of gaming yes, flight is sooo slooow.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
It also isn't the reason for what I'm observing. Even if I reach a group of foes before the epidemic guy, it makes little difference. In two seconds, he's finished off his whole spawn, while I may have thrown one punch. In one more second he's next to me, and my spawn evaporates before I can do anything else.
Anyone remember the beach scene from Mad Max? The one where the blond ganger (I forget his name) is carefully lining up his shot at a mannequin with his pistol, and then Johnny the boy jumps in and blasts it with a shotgun.
That's what this feels like. Someone else is stealing my fun. That's a crude way of putting it, but it kind of amounts to that.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Not half as bad as Jet Boots/Pack. Top speed is good, but by thunder, that acceleration...
The devs need to watch the Marvel movies with Iron Man and note how his jets work. That is, quicker acceleration, less fine conrtol, tougher deceleration, etc. But then, that's a whole other thread.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
If it isn't fun, stop doing it. Easy!
That you are not enjoying a particular game activity simply means you should stop doing it, not that you should try to make it less fun for those who are enjoying it.
Don't try to break the other kid's toys; it only makes you out to be a meanie-head that no one wants around.
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
That's not true. According to http://www.stockyann.net/Vrac/CO.php , Epidemic ticks 4 times in 2 seconds. Assuming a slight lead of 0.24 seconds, it would possible to do 4 hits of Beatdown in that timeframe. With no lead, 4 hits of Defensive Combo is still possible.
It would also be possible to fully charge a Havoc Stomp and land it before the last hit of Epidemic (Fully charged Havoc Stomp = 1.83sec, Epidemic = 2sec). Assuming both characters are built and geared equally, if 4 hits of Epidemic are enough to kill the spawn alone, a single, fully charged Havoc Stomp would have one-shotted them altogether, in 91% of the time.
That said, a charged up attack that self-roots the user should do more damage than an attack like Sword Cyclone, which allows for mobility at the same time, and I do feel there is a disparity there. However, it seems to have been grossly exaggerated by the OP.
Claimed he was leaving as of November 11th. Still very concerned someone is 'stealing is fun' as of November 27th.
my bad english that i don't think Epidemic is a "flippy shooty thing" ?
It was a list of things. In other words, OP claims the following are all too powerful:
Personally, I have a challenge for the OP: Show us the combat logs. Show us that one person is doing one AoE that melts all Tough rated trash, including Super Villains, in under 2 seconds. If you can, find out what build they're using. Bring hard data to the table, not just your impressions. Also, for the record, Burst Alerts don't count for this, only Smashes or Grabs.
Now, I've seen trash in Alerts get melted hard and fast, but it generally involved 2-4 people stacking the AoEs. I suspect the same thing is happening here and the OP is attributing the killing potential of a pile of powers to the most visible/obvious power. Either that, or the OP is running Bursts and doesn't realize that absolutely everything in a Burst dies in seconds.
Ahh .. ok.
However ... Lead Tempest to powerful .. the range is fun to pull 2-3 groups of mobs at once
but its damage was always more on the low side.
Else there a normally 2 kinds of henchmen in Smashes .. some die really fast, and some
take a bit longer .. the Shotgun Mobs in Black Fang Alert for example.
When I see someone take out mobs in Alerts as fast as the OP suggests...I think "nice"...not "nerf".
VARIANT
"Nearly all men can withstand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln-
Madness!
There's an off chance that some particular power combination is doing something ludicrous; it's happened before, it could happen again. I doubt that's actually the case, though, as other people would be doing the nerf call with hard numbers rather than "I think it needs a nerf because they killed my mobs in the Alert!"
Anytime you enter an alert, check the levels of the other players. If there is anyone above a given level... say greater than 20... or 15... just leave. You can be the guy who refuses to do an alert with anything but low level players.
Win-win situation looks like to me.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Agreed.
Oh, and cool handle. I just reread the series (for the umpteenth time) a couple of weeks ago.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If there was a power which wiped out a boss along with the mobs in one fail swoop then clearly there would be a massive nerf needed to said power OR have the interactions dampened or something.
I agree with Vitality, the faster the opposition is taken out the better. It means you can focus directly on the boss and do more damage and hopefully win the instanced alert.
However as for DPS potency, certain DPS powers are very potent. Some examples:
- Fully reloaded Two Gun Mojo
- Lightning Arc
- Epidemic
As well as others, I think I'd only have a problem with Epidemic when a player beats me with it in a duel
I don't mind the DPS out put of players at all especially in Alerts with lower levels who through being a lower level cannot pull the weight of a fairly capable "level 30" team mate. High level DPS makes up for this issue.
However I will admit that sometimes, Epidemic wiping out my targets can be a little irritating, but then I start thinking and realise...OH! More time to kill boss >:3.
Most of the time it is the little Vargulfs with their grenade spam which really tick me off and I wish an Epidemic would just come along
Any way...I seem to recall you saying you were leaving? Are you staying?
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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However, I'll still be able to post on the forums, and I may actually play an archetype (now that I have another character slot - one of my characters made it to 40).
Again, not relevant to the discussion.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Frankly the OP of this thread really is a reason to be put off of the game and here is why.
To a first year and occasionially on then off again player your tone hearkens back to the constant demand for nerfing in year one that really lead to the games most dire era as far as enjoying the game went.
You yourself say how your OP defensive nature is ok, but excessive DPS is wrong and hurts your enjoyment and that somehow is bad for the game.
You seem to forget PVP is a core aspect of CO, and in PvP to defeat great defense takes great offensive power. Not debuffs that take time to build up, not buffs that take time to build up. Just raw, unfathomable, unstoppable power.
You mention having made a superman build, perhaps that is true as far as your defense goes, but I promise you a properly made kryptonian homage build is anything but a pure tank. Well made ones usually focus on supermans superior speed and intel as much as his raw strength, they take into account his eye beams and frost breath, and usually use force powers colored red and set to the ehad for source to reflect the fact when superman wanted to he could level a star destroyer sized ship with a mere gaze. When superman used his fist he was holding back 90% of the time.
For my old and currently very dusty and probably out dated kryptonian style character I messed around with, I ahd little trouble super speeding into a group and frost breathing, or flying above and force blasting them from my eyes. I usually only melee thugs for amusement, and only use it all on big bad cosmics and the like. Hell my strongest melee punch is mainly used for a debuff effect on it, not as a main dps tool.
So frankly it sounds to me like again the issue is with yor build and how you percieve it deserves to work rather then the reality that it could be better both in optimal effect and in how you pay homage to one of the great golden age icons of comicdom.
When you seem to fail at something look first to yourself, not at those who succeeded where you faltered.
And remember for all the power of the last son of krypton, in the end he was just a puzzle to take apart by and the last thing he saw before being choked out was his best friends face.
Well TBH it is quite relevant, there is little point asking for nerfs if your not staying...ruining other peoples fun then "running off" isnt fair so as the whole crux of your post is to nerf DPS, then surely you should be staying around for said nerf..
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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However, Honestrearcher, more HP is foolish & lazy way to upgrade difficulty. Clarence is a good example of that in this game. The better way to do it is to improve NPC AI, and particularly make the NPC's make use of teamplay elements with tanks, melee DPS, ranged DPS, and healers or other support. Make the enemies block when a player is charging up an attack which knocks at them. Stuff like that.
An interesting point. Certainly there is a lot more complaining about alerts that fail than ones that are successful.
It's not crude, it's childish.
When you say stuff like that it sounds almost EXACTLY like stuff that used to be said on the World of Whatsitis (the word I'd write here is censored on this website) mage forums. You know the ones that lead to the coining of this phrase?
"Less QQ, more pew-pew."
Which coincidentally is what you'd be doing, that is if you were staying an not "leaving".
Speaking of which you said you're comments about not leaving were not relevant?
^ I agree. And again, "Less QQ, more pew-pew."
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
See Vixy's reply here:
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2698141&postcount=104
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
I agree with most of what you said there (and could go on to explain how it goes deeper by several magnitudes, but I wont as I could do several paragraphs on that alone), but not the part about how players with several years of play time should perform better than players without. Say what you will about the balance of investment in that area, it's flat out unfair when newer players who have a willingness to learn and improve are in some way heavily shut out from being competitive by a large time investment. Even skill, for that matter.
Sadly, one of my favorite ARTS style games is dieing right now because of this, both in terms of skill and "gear." SMNC is a game with a LoL style unlock system, and while it's not terribly difficult once you actually learn it, the learning curve is absolutely brutal. The mass majority of players out there being unwilling to spend any real time learning and getting good at the game, has led to the population count dwindling to the 100-300 count, which is horrible for a F2P game of any sort.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
So on the 11th, you quit, but now you'll still be here on the forums to share just how very very concerned you are.
Nope, you dropped a drama bomb two and a half weeks ago and flounced out the door, and yet you're still here on the forums and you still plan on being here on the forums, so very very concerned that we should stop liking what you don't like.
I'd say its very relevant as to your intentions with regards to this discussion.
So, clearly you don't know what you're talking about. Since this bit of minutae is of such consequence to you, I'll explain in more detail.
I was a subscriiber. Financial realities forced me to not renew my subscription until recently. I had been missing the game, and was eager to check out the vehicles. When I found that the game was not any better off than it was 6 months ago, that there were still balance issues (like the one I am pointing out in this thread - an issue they said they would be addressing) and that vehicles were just more store fodder, I was disappointed.
My subscription will probably run out again soon. However, in the last month, one of my characters reached L40, so I now have an open slot for an archetype character. Thus, I will probably be able to play for free where I couldn't before (all my characters are freeform).
So, I will be quitting, but still playing, and if the finances allow, I'll resubscribe to get access to my freeforms.
In either case, I'll be concerned about balance issues because of two things:
1. I want to enjoy the game, and unbalanced powers undermines the ability to enjoy the game, as it behaves inconsistently.
2. An unbalanced game is skating on thin ice, because people will become disenchanted with disbalance and move to another game. This represents the threat of the game's closure, which means NO ONE will be able to enjoy it. Granted, it's a worst case scenario, but not impossible.
In other words, I'm interested in the balance of the game for all concerned, whether I'm playing or not.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
@spyralpegacyon, actually reinforces a concern some people have been posting about.
The only difference is that your arguement has been simplified or brought down to it's most basic roots which is you arent subbing any more but will be playing as an AT player and you will still be on forums, you want balance by nerfing a particular play style which I think it quite key to the "fast action paced-ness" of CO, namely DPS, because Epidemic and Lead Tempest take out lots of people in Alerts..
The OP/unbalanced powers you are talking about will most likely affect you in Alerts and very minimally in Open world content. Being an AT player for almost two years, I dont think I ever complained about DPS being "too potent" because in most cases it was DPS or death.
I'd say this only applies when you are in regular contact with these "misbehaving powers", which since you will be playing as an AT, you wont be using (unless you go and buy Scourge or Specialist AT's). Some powers in CO do need to be toned down with regard to how easy they wipe mobs, but thats an AI mob difficulty thing not so much the power itself, I think.
PvP is an example of an unbalanced mine field from what I have seen and experienced (getting my rear end kicked loads) this sort of has stopped people from PvPing but I'd say a good to fair amount of people still engage in PvP even if it is not balanced. I see the point here, but I doubt 3 or 4 powers will cause any serious issues, in time they will all be balanced out. It just takes someone to constantly abuse it then it will get super nerfed. Take Crowd Control Mechanic and PvP as an example, two main holds were abused one was very powerful the other had an advantage which allowed it to become its own entity and fire off control effects whilst allowing for movement. This caused an upset and now the power has been decimated.
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I want to see balance in the game, because I find it distinctly irritating when there's something not "right." It's like having a pebble in my shoe, I can ignore it, but it's going to annoy me all the same.
To me, the most compelling argument is that people already find it fun. Who am I to rain on their parade? I'm nobody, so while I still think there's a balance problem, I can leave the issue sit with the devs and the players.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
So then just stop. Trust me, nobody is forming opinions about you based on what someone says about you on the forums, because nobody really cares. Hell, as I'm typing this I allready can't remember your forum handle... lemme just glance up a bit... yeah colonelmarik, just let the thread die.. or let it live on without you... does it really matter?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
You keep saying this. You don't happen to have a source, perhaps? Because i've been here the whole time and cant recall any official word from anyone at Cryptic saying powers like Epidemic are over preforming. Or that power sets that have had their reviews and updates in the last year (like supernatural with epidemic) are officially considered over powered.
Any talks of balance generally have been focused on sets still waiting for their pass. In most cases these balance passes have IMPROVED performance and damage. So this runs counter to your arguments.
In fact, the flippy gun power you mentioned. Recently, within the last week or three, got a significant UPGRADE. So if there really has been official word that balance would be addressed. Perhaps the mistake is yours in your understanding of what that meant.
Fix Tank much better Damage per Second and make it squishy,
Fix DPS much low Damage per Second and make it viable,
and then he will be satisfied. Probably.
Well, do Epi-DPS by yourself then...
However, I am putting up this post to point out something which you apparently do not see.
You asked for BALANCE. I have actually pointed out before in other threads that this is IMPOSSIBLE in a game where the sheer number of powers and the ways they perform are so different.
Some have higher overal damage but smaller area of effect, others have high dps but single target. Some have high dps single target with small side effect to aoe so on and so forth. We revel in the variety. If you want to ensure full balance, then everyone should have just 1 set of powers that all will use maybe throw in some graphic and animation variations.
To compound this issue, the existence of freeforms over ATs will further upset this balance. We nerf one power, simply means another will rise to take its place. We see that all the time and when you are here long enough, you will also see this. If epidemic, lead tempest and hurricane are so deadly, please feel free to take them on your freeform but if financially you cannot re-subscribe, you can still play ATs with these powers.
As others have pointed out, if your team mates are able to clear the mobs faster, it means you, as a tank (if you are even a tank) can focus on aggroing the boss while the rest are killing mobs). However, if you are a DPS, my question will be: did you pick an AOE dps power and if not, why not?
If the issue is you are not able to get to the enemy fast enough, then it will be a travel power issue.
Personally when I play my FF tank in Alerts and I see dpsers that can manage it, it's sunglasses and cool drink day. :cool:
lol.
From what i understood the OP is camplaining about kill-steal, complaning about the epidemic-guy that kill his and OP group of enemies in less of 10 sec; and i want to say some things that the OP apparently haven't notice about this game;first tanks are meats shields that don't deal much damage, second dps is a glass cannon (well less in this game) that lives in a constant kill or be killed (especially in this game) and is still vulnerable to one-shots, third have you considered changing to dps (ranged or melee) role so you can deal more damage, or at least using roomsweeper(is so fun), if you hadn't notice you can use almost any power set in any role.
Oh well, since you apparently are going to roll an AT, please for God sake, choose the unleashed with R3 eye of the storm and high crit chance and severity.
Of course, it's melee vs. ranged, but the point of going with a defensive passive is to be able to stand in melee and take the heat in the first place.
Somehow, I don't think having everyone trivializing the content is a credible fix. There's too much damage as it is. That's what I've been saying all along. Enemies don't last long enough for other players to do anything.
But then, it seems clear no one cares.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
I think you should test how Epi-DPS works by your self. It's not so good as you think except for all Legion's and Vigilante's with all purple Mods. Those takes like more then 20k in G tho.
Well, all Legion's and Vigilante's with all purple Mods will become OP in any kind of build. xD
It is, however, considerably better than the AoE maintain in Might, Shockwave, in that it has a bigger area, works as a circle, not a cone, and flat out does more damage. Also, Shockwave is taggged as Ranged damage, not melee, so melee toggles boost it less. While it may take a heavy gear investment to generate the effects the OP mentioned, Epi does better DPS to groups than anything in the Might set.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
This is an unreasonable comparison though.
Due to the reasons listed above, it is quite clear that Shockwave should deal noticably less damage. I fail to see a problem here.
Responses above.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Area of a 25 foot circle: 25^2*pi=625*3.14=1932.5
Area of a 50 foot cone with an angle of 90 degrees: 50^2*pi/4=2500*3.14/4=1932.5
Do you see the massive advantage of a 25 foot circle? No? No? Why are we arguing basic math?
As for knock up and challenging strikes. That is an entirely valid discussion but the fact is that picking those kinds of powers will give you less damage. That is definately not specific to might powers or shockwave, it's just how the game is balanced. I personally think this is as it should be but that is a matter of opinion.
Conclusion:
If you want to deal more damage, don't pick tanking powers, pick damage-dealer powers.
By the way, all my characters are tanks and "suffer" from not being quite as good at dealing damage as pure damage dealers.
Considering the OP's complaint, and the topic of the thread, no, it is not unreasonable. He is using might and fhas the subjective impression of not contributing. Maintains are better than charge-ups for sustained DPS in the vast majority of cases. Shockwave is the only maintain in the frame the OP claims to use, and DPS is the thread topic. You can hold onto your assertion if you will, but this does not make the comparison unreasonable in this context. For the rest, I'll defer to Ash's response.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
The issue with Cone v. circle is not so much area but getting the mobs into the area. A circle of Epidemic's size is much better for this than a longer cone like Shockwave. As to the Challenging Strikes power doing less damage, One Hundred Hands would like a word with you.
The real discrepancy between Shockwave and Epidemic is that Shockwave was put in by the original dev team and has not significantly changed in effect. Epidemic and One Hundred Hands were put in much later, and for whatever reason, just do more damage.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
I jumped ahead, dropped some gas pellets and started charging a hidden strike (I don't recall the name of the attack
This pattern repeated itself on the wolf guy, the robot guy and again on the three bosses at the end. Against them, I couldn't stay in range to hit them with the big attack (they kept running all around to get at the hurricane guy), so I had to hit them with my combo attacks. Either way, it was pretty underwhelming. Practically every time I tried to do ANYTHING, the foes were dead before I could.
Wasn't much fun.
Take from that what you like.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
We all get that you're frustrated. But the truth of the matter is you're placing blame elsewhere without looking at yourself first.
You can't really balance superhero damage - just watch any of the superhero movies released in the last decade - it took an entire invasion army just to push the avengers to the limit. Fighting one super villain is usually the only time you see a real slugfest. Any boss fight in CO ultimately breaks down to tanking and hitting an hp bag of varying size.
If you're struggling as bad as you describe to do anything productive - that's a player issue. You can blame this power or that - but if you don't bother to actually take the time to learn the actual mechanics or put in some effort to see what you YOURSELF can improve, then all you'll end up doing is complaining.
You don't seem to understand that Alerts are random co-op teams, right?
Either you adapt and happy the Alert had been completed in the time limit or rage-qq because you can't adapt your gameplay.
It seems you've chosen the second way.
Yes I have seen people solo and have soloed the mobs before...but everyone can do that if you cant...well thats a build issue...the big bosses are tougher for me...but that is usualy because I am level 15 doing an alert.
I think the OP needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
Seriously this sounds like build envy...as in his character isnt doing as well as someone else is so its not right and it cant be his fault..for not changing his role or maybe trying to play a healer and not being able to dish out damage.
Good gravy....it takes me sometimes hours of experimenting to come up with a good combination of powers...especialy when trying to use specific power sets...yes...i use freeform alot...but go figure
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
It smells like waffles.
It's not build envy. I'm quite capable of soloing these foes too (though, not nearly so fast - I'm set up for more resiliency). I'm also entirely capable of just taking one of these powers and wiping everything out in 2 seconds - but it wouldn't be any more balanced if I was the one doing it.
Again, though, I recognize that it's not likely to change. There's too many things they have to put on the store. Development time isn't going to be allocated to anything remotely like balance (especially if STO is any indicator).
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521