I think the OP needs to wake up and smell the coffee.
You can't force a change in somebody's mind, you can try to influence them (and yes, gunpoint threatening is even a form of influence). But ultimately the change of heart comes from within not without. ColonelMarik will never see what the rest of us see, he's convinced he's right and everyone else is wrong.
The only thing that can be done is to just let this thread die already... (i.e.: stop bumping it)
Seriously this sounds like build envy...as in his character isnt doing as well as someone else is so its not right and it cant be his fault..for not changing his role or maybe trying to play a healer and not being able to dish out damage.
No kidding.
FYI: Just today I'd say an average of 75% successes and 25% total-waste-of-my-time failures. I would like my time back for insufficient DPS & teamwork, but then I'd just sound like Colonelmarik in reverse. Ironically, there's far more issues with insufficient DPS than "too much DPS". The driving factor in most of this is the people playing the game, not the game mechanics themselves. The game mechanics are actually quite well balanced these days, whether you choose to admit that or not. (of course there's always room for debate & improvement)
(...)Development time isn't going to be allocated to anything remotely like balance (...).
If you want to talk about balance, talk about Telepathy insane nerfs, talk about PFF, talk about insufficient threat for tanks, etc...
But a dpser who can dps? No, that's not unbalanced.
You can't force a change in somebody's mind, you can try to influence them (and yes, gunpoint threatening is even a form of influence). But ultimately the change of heart comes from within not without. ColonelMarik will never see what the rest of us see, he's convinced he's right and everyone else is wrong.
The only thing that can be done is to just let this thread die already... (i.e.: stop bumping it)
No kidding.
FYI: Just today I'd say an average of 75% successes and 25% total-waste-of-my-time failures. I would like my time back for insufficient DPS & teamwork, but then I'd just sound like Colonelmarik in reverse. Ironically, there's far more issues with insufficient DPS than "too much DPS". The driving factor in most of this is the people playing the game, not the game mechanics themselves. The game mechanics are actually quite well balanced these days, whether you choose to admit that or not. (of course there's always room for debate & improvement)
I'm not even playing anymore (or at least hardly ever now) but I like this thread. It's kind of funny to watch one guy make the same complaint over and over and completely ignore the input of what's been right in front of him. Kinda reminds me of those 40s that never learned to play the game during all that grinding.
I had to step in this one. I really think that 90% of the people reading this are missing the point completely and the ones who get it are not explaining it well.
You say that because everyone can use the powers/items/build to solo the mobs that makes it ok? If you don't enjoy a challenge we get that, but that probably makes you a minority. A lot of other big name MMOs enjoys wild success, and can be mind numbingly hard at times. This game doesn't have that aspect, unless your trying to break/exploit the game in ways not intended. How can you blame him for asking for a challenge?
You also tell him that because he is taking time to charge his moves he is wasting yours? It doesn't bother you that a large portion of moves are obsolete or insignificant in most game play? Your mad at him for pointing out what's wrong, but not the developers for making the game more versatile?
And finally you reference "real" superheros. If you really wanted that then you wouldn't mind not having a chance to beat 60% of the game content because you play a munitions detective and the boss is a cosmic god or undead lich commander. You act like the superheros we know are fair in any way. The incredible Hulk vs Jubilee from the X-men. Nuff said about that.
If you want to talk about balance, talk about Telepathy insane nerfs, talk about PFF, talk about insufficient threat for tanks, etc...
But a dpser who can dps? No, that's not unbalanced.
Note: Telepathy was destroyed due to one advantage on one power which could have been either removed or modified so it self rooted. Instead PvPer's who complained about it being OP, some wrongly attributed Ego Storm to being OP instead of the advantage, this was then "Balanced" by Cryptic by virtually removing Crowd Control mechanic from the game and putting the silly incapacitates system in place, which was floored on the basis that the only person it incapacitates is the user V_V... As for PFF, that was recently fixed to what it should be (still not quite there but I'm content with it's state atm). IMO Tanks need to have a new way to generate moar threat, which should be innate.
IMO, DPS is powerful, this seems to be a more melee vs ranged issue in his latest example. From personal experience I never wasted Shadow Strike on a mob person unless they were all that was around. I usually went for the boss, as soon as others were turning their attention to them.
I had to step in this one. I really think that 90% of the people reading this are missing the point completely and the ones who get it are not explaining it well.
I think since everyone can understand what he has written and are replying accordingly...people arent missing the point.
Which is, The original poster feels there is too much DPS in the game as in it is too potent for him to use his powers in a PUG situation. In a PUG situation there are a hilarious amount of team combinations that can be achieved which provide success or failure dependant on everyone's character. This uncertainty can cause certain powers in THAT situation to be useless/not worth charging up, an example would be a Mind AT using Ego Sleep in an Alert with 4 FF Infernals.
You say that because everyone can use the powers/items/build to solo the mobs that makes it ok? If you don't enjoy a challenge we get that, but that probably makes you a minority. A lot of other big name MMOs enjoys wild success, and can be mind numbingly hard at times. This game doesn't have that aspect, unless your trying to break/exploit the game in ways not intended. How can you blame him for asking for a challenge?
He isnt asking for a challenge as much as he is asking for DPS power to be nerfed, so that his build can fire off desired powers. Which in essence is unfair. Ruining someone else's play style has been done before (My lovely Crowd Control) and I hated it. I wouldnt wish it on the main drive power style of the game,as this is a fast paced action game.
You also tell him that because he is taking time to charge his moves he is wasting yours? It doesn't bother you that a large portion of moves are obsolete or insignificant in most game play? Your mad at him for pointing out what's wrong, but not the developers for making the game more versatile?
Huh? I think everyone has experienced the situation where we have charged up an attack and then before we let it loose our target is dead. So what if that happens? You pick a different target and move on. That has happened to me more times than I care to remember yet I am not bitter about it. The examples given by colonelmarik (from what I have seen) come from PUG situations, not all situations in game can be generalised by PUG/Alerts as it is not representative of the game. I stand by the fact that the majority of DPS is fine and welcomed especially in Alerts with a timer. No one is forced to run Alerts you can just team with people and do content, you can even run a controller if you really wanted. Again I will stress that DPS isnt so powerful that one infernal blast or Lightning Arc would wipe out a boss or something but it is powerful, I think perhaps as powerful as Healing. Then again if a thread with Too Much Healing came along, you could easily counter that by running a build with no healing capability.
And finally you reference "real" superheros. If you really wanted that then you wouldn't mind not having a chance to beat 60% of the game content because you play a munitions detective and the boss is a cosmic god or undead lich commander. You act like the superheros we know are fair in any way. The incredible Hulk vs Jubilee from the X-men. Nuff said about that.
Just pack a supply of special cosmic nullifying bullets and a few team mates. As for Hulk vs Jubilee...she blinds him with a massive firework blast and runs off :biggrin:
Although I cant see a situations where they would be fighting...or even in the same vicinity...
Munitions Detectives only come across those bosses because they follow the plot all the way up to the head honcho. Batman has no problem taking on some otherwise super human foes.
You say that because everyone can use the powers/items/build to solo the mobs that makes it ok? If you don't enjoy a challenge we get that, but that probably makes you a minority. A lot of other big name MMOs enjoys wild success, and can be mind numbingly hard at times. This game doesn't have that aspect, unless your trying to break/exploit the game in ways not intended. How can you blame him for asking for a challenge?
I addressed this early on in the thread. Asking for challenge is fine. Asking for challenge in Level 6 content like Grab Alerts on the other hand...
You also tell him that because he is taking time to charge his moves he is wasting yours? It doesn't bother you that a large portion of moves are obsolete or insignificant in most game play? Your mad at him for pointing out what's wrong, but not the developers for making the game more versatile?
The problem isn't that he's charging his moves, but that he's charging moves in the wrong situation, i.e. attacking the wrong targets or just plain using the wrong move like a single target, full charge-only Shadow Strike on trash instead of an AoE Ricochet throw that can be released early.
I use characters built around charge attacks and they kill things just fine. My favorite example, Ebon Ruin followed by Ebon Rift with Vengeful Shadows. That has potential to drop Master Villains in Grabs in 3.5 seconds solo (Master Villain in corner, critical hit on Ruin followed by 2 critical hit juggles on Rift).
And no, I have yet to be out-DPSed by the mythical Epidemic users who supposedly solo all spawns in Grabs in 2 seconds yet. Not even my own Epidemic spammer could do that, and she was capable of some pretty crazy stuff, like soloing GRAB and Mega-D with an offensive passive and consistently topping scores on Red Winter by huge margins.
I think since everyone can understand what he has written and are replying accordingly...people arent missing the point.
Which is, The original poster feels there is too much DPS in the game as in it is too potent for him to use his powers in a PUG situation. In a PUG situation there are a hilarious amount of team combinations that can be achieved which provide success or failure dependant on everyone's character. This uncertainty can cause certain powers in THAT situation to be useless/not worth charging up, an example would be a Mind AT using Ego Sleep in an Alert with 4 FF Infernals.
To clarify, I'm not saying there's too much dps for ME, but too much in general. It's trivializing the content. Alert foes are TOUGHER than normal foes, yet they're melting like butter in a blast furnace. It shouldn't be that way. THAT is what I'm saying. That's why my build is irrelevant, because it's not about what I can or cannot do, it's about the balance of the GAME.
He isnt asking for a challenge as much as he is asking for DPS power to be nerfed, so that his build can fire off desired powers. Which in essence is unfair. Ruining someone else's play style has been done before (My lovely Crowd Control) and I hated it. I wouldnt wish it on the main drive power style of the game,as this is a fast paced action game.
Again, it's not about my build. That it's often not possible to fire a power that takes 2 seconds to charge up is evidence of the problem; it's not the problem itself. That said, I don't want to ruin anyone's play. I also don't want others ruining MY play.
Huh? I think everyone has experienced the situation where we have charged up an attack and then before we let it loose our target is dead. So what if that happens? You pick a different target and move on. That has happened to me more times than I care to remember yet I am not bitter about it. The examples given by colonelmarik (from what I have seen) come from PUG situations, not all situations in game can be generalised by PUG/Alerts as it is not representative of the game. I stand by the fact that the majority of DPS is fine and welcomed especially in Alerts with a timer. No one is forced to run Alerts you can just team with people and do content, you can even run a controller if you really wanted. Again I will stress that DPS isnt so powerful that one infernal blast or Lightning Arc would wipe out a boss or something but it is powerful, I think perhaps as powerful as Healing. Then again if a thread with Too Much Healing came along, you could easily counter that by running a build with no healing capability.
You suggest picking another target. What do you do when all the targets have been killed off all at once? Alerts are PUG content for the most part, but I don't know the relevance of that argument. Are you suggesting it's fine for there to be no balance in PUG groups? If Infernal Blast or Lightning Arc could wipe out a whole spawn the way Epidemic does, you bet I'd complain.
That said, I do agree that defensive powers can be (and possibly are) just as unbalancing as offense. The difference is that if someone on the team is unkillable, it doesn't stop me from enjoying the content (alert, what have you). I might envy his survivability, but that's only affecting HIM. Taking away all the enemies affects the whole team.
Just pack a supply of special cosmic nullifying bullets and a few team mates. As for Hulk vs Jubilee...she blinds him with a massive firework blast and runs off :biggrin:
Although I cant see a situations where they would be fighting...or even in the same vicinity...
Munitions Detectives only come across those bosses because they follow the plot all the way up to the head honcho. Batman has no problem taking on some otherwise super human foes.
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Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
@colonelmarik The problem with your argument is that you want to nerf a power because you're not having fun in content that is meant for for lvl 6 and up. Once this power is nerfed and you start failing alerts should they remove lower level players because they impeading your fun? Personally I would rather have them work on content or making other powers better than nerfing current powers.
You also tell him that because he is taking time to charge his moves he is wasting yours? It doesn't bother you that a large portion of moves are obsolete or insignificant in most game play?
To be fair, this is nothing new. Charge powers in CO are inferior to maintains and have been since beta. There are situational exceptions, most notably the alpha spike, or the now-defunct stun + imbue-cade. Tbh, I believe the current dev team recognizes this, and are slowly moving away from fully charging such powers being the "best" use of them. To wit, Ricochet Throw, which does better dps tapped unless charged from stealth.
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T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
And yet there are lots of times when there is too little DPS....which can ruin everyone's fun just as much.
The variance in the amount of DPS results from the number of options people have when making their builds and how they gear up. Vixy would rather have those options remain than be taken away.
Also...
CHANGES TO POWERS ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.
I'm not seeing all this DPS you're speaking of. In most cases, my character in support mode is the one doing all the damage, since everyone else I've run into on alerts only wants to use their energy builder.
I'd love it if you passed some of that "so insane DPS" my way.
To be fair, this is nothing new. Charge powers in CO are inferior to maintains and have been since beta. There are situational exceptions, most notably the alpha spike, or the now-defunct stun + imbue-cade. Tbh, I believe the current dev team recognizes this, and are slowly moving away from fully charging such powers being the "best" use of them. To wit, Ricochet Throw, which does better dps tapped unless charged from stealth.
I think Dragon's Wrath and Dragon's Claws are pretty hard to beat for any single target PvE situation. But finding a charge power that beats Lightning Storm and UA'd Conflag for AoE DPS is another question altogether.
1) I didnt say it was too much for YOU in the sense it may come across as. Mobs are meant to be trashy, not too difficult to overcome for a single hero. As far as I am aware bosses cannot be one shotted by DPS like Epidemic. Therefore the simple fact is DPS is doing its job, it's DPSing. Having little to no DPS in an Alert situation. Besided everyone is nerf/buffed in an alert thanks to the lvl 30 cap, so balance is not a prevalent issue in an Alert, which is meant to be a quick situation so DPS in general is welcomed. Seeing as your examples from what I have read seem to be from Alert situations you may want to take examples from other areas of gameplay first, before suggesting about ways to nerf DPS for balance sake.
2) If your power is a charge up power target the boss! Or the highest HP mob member, simple solution. The fact that you are unable to fire off such powers may mean you need to prioritise high HP targets first. Instead of targetting mobs which are meant to be finished quickly and then complaining that they arent killable by your power because you dont want to use a maintain. For example, it's very common for a target to be finished off 3 times over by Lightning Arc before I can fire off a force cascade, as a result of this knowledge I switch targets as I anticipate that it would happen and then happily fire off force cascades on the boss and whatever else gets in the way.
Alerts are PUG content for the most part, but I don't know the relevance of that argument. Are you suggesting it's fine for there to be no balance in PUG groups?
Are you seriously asking for balance from a PUG group?! It stands for Pick Up Group as in not preplanned unless you are on a team. Do you expect the game to pick players matched on damage potential and defense and shove them into a team? Clearly not. So there is no balance in PUG groups hence why some who dont like that team up. Nerfing DPS would not bring balance to PUG/Alerts AT ALL.
If Infernal Blast or Lightning Arc could wipe out a whole spawn the way Epidemic does, you bet I'd complain.
And therein lies the magic...they can't. So what if Epidemic is powerful? If you are so against it make an SG base devoted to non Epidemic builds and run Alerts with them. Nerfing Epidemic isnt going to bring about total game balance. It seems that you are just a tad bitter about Epidemic, similar to the way I feel about DW's defense penetration, but as long as I dont duel ppl with DW, I dont mind at all.
That said, I do agree that defensive powers can be (and possibly are) just as unbalancing as offense. The difference is that if someone on the team is unkillable, it doesn't stop me from enjoying the content (alert, what have you). I might envy his survivability, but that's only affecting HIM. Taking away all the enemies affects the whole team.
@Highlighted : Yes this is true...it makes the Alert go faster so that everyone can concentrate on the main objective, which is the boss. I've never heard of anyone in an Alert team complain because Epidemic wiped out the mob making it less of an issue to defeat boss and therefore pass the alert and gain a reward.
My advice to you is, focus on the boss. Stray mob members who survive the AoE can be picked off by you if you feel the need to take out at least one mob member. My advice stands, accept or ignore it. Either way, no one is complaining when healers out heal the damage they receive from a boss or when a tank regains agro from a squishy DPS. This in all fairness seems to be less about balance and more about I want to kill mob members too.
There are plenty of mob members in CO outside of Alerts.
Regarding wiping mobs out with Epidemic I suspect the dratted Radiation burst alert..
I actually do have a single Infernal build despite my raging against the set and it's powers. Alina is Fireform Epidemic/Defile/Devour Essence/Concentration and Condemn. She has naff all health and lots of DPS but is fitted with Fireflight coz it looks good on her...
Lolz if I can get to the mobs before the rest do then yes I can melt 2 x Viper Enforcers and a big PA guy with approx 4 secs of Epidemic. But you gotta get there before the rest do it for you. Yeah them Radiation alerts are kinda jokey difficulty wise and in order to get some you gotta bring maintains and lightspeed or similar.
P.S. Alina is kind of alternate world version of Alma Wade (a victim of Argent Technology Corp) Lolz no health and lots of dying + respawning is kinda thematic. You can drive her off but you can't kill her.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
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Ok I see the angle everyone is coming from. I'm going to do the OP a favor and rephrase his thoughts to be more controlled and productive, and get some valid points across.
Whats was said:
There seem to be an awful lot of ridiculously high damage powers and builds these days. I'm finding it's killing alerts for me, and I thought I'd draw attention to it.
What he should have said:
People have highly varied build/skill levels in Alerts it seems. Maybe we could have different difficulties and levels for alerts? maybe dedicated roles to help me participate. Just suggestions of course.
What was said:
I go into alerts and start charging an attack when someone spamming Epidemic or whatever the flippy shooty thing is, or perhaps the one with the whirling swords comes superspeeding in, and before I can finish charging the attack, the whole spawn is killed off. That person then superspeeds to the next spawn and kills it off before anyone else can get there. They essentially solo the things, leaving none of the other players with anything to do.
What he should have said:
There should be rewards for team work, as soloing alerts is both easy and mundane. Several powers in this game lend to very DPS heavy builds, and these alerts stand no chance. Again a difficulty slider or a more options would be great, although I would also like to see a slight change to these builds. I do not believe a champion should be able to hold a mobs aggro easily with little risk, whilst putting out this sort of DPS.
Now, maybe it's me, but that seems like pretty excessive DPS. Yes, they should be able to do significant damage, but when they can blast through spawns built to challenge whole teams in the space of a couple of seconds, it suggests a problem.
What he should have said:
There should be a greater risk for pushing your DPS as far as you can, and less defensive benefits. Glass cannon should be just that. Glass. I understand this is a Superhero game, but it is a game, and thus requires balance.
What was said:
Is it just me, or is a series of nerfs needed?
(and yes, I hate bringing it up, but perhaps it's needed)
What he should have said:
Maybe there could be a refocus of roles some time in the future, if even a slight one. Or maybe an alert re-vamp. Regardless, feedback is always welcome and I appreciate your thoughts on this matter!
That said, I do agree that defensive powers can be (and possibly are) just as unbalancing as offense. The difference is that if someone on the team is unkillable, it doesn't stop me from enjoying the content (alert, what have you). I might envy his survivability, but that's only affecting HIM. Taking away all the enemies affects the whole team.
No matter how I reword it in sweeter and more politically correct words, the meaning speaks loud and clear enough.
It's not build envy. I'm quite capable of soloing these foes too (though, not nearly so fast - I'm set up for more resiliency). I'm also entirely capable of just taking one of these powers and wiping everything out in 2 seconds - but it wouldn't be any more balanced if I was the one doing it.
Again, though, I recognize that it's not likely to change. There's too many things they have to put on the store. Development time isn't going to be allocated to anything remotely like balance (especially if STO is any indicator).
You see thats the other thing.....you are talking about fighting minions....not a boss...not a legendary...
And thats an issue in it self.....the alert isnt about the minions....its about the main enemies....players are not some super powered character who should only be fighting at clark kent level....the object is to become better not weaker.....the minions should be taken out fast because they are cannon fodder...and not the main story....even the missions where you are to clear the courtyard or whatever first....thats nothing more then build up for the main bad guy.
So really I just dont think there is any issue....other than you couldnt keep up with some other player.
And by the way...if you supposedly could take them down super fast...you would have...otherwise its just plain dumb to deliberatly try to make the team almost fail in a timed alert.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
What he should have said:
People have highly varied build/skill levels in Alerts it seems. Maybe we could have different difficulties and levels for alerts? maybe dedicated roles to help me participate. Just suggestions of course.
What was said:
I think what the OP wants is for the alerts to be more difficult period.....because there are in his mind too many players able to do them without major issues.
And he wants his specific power set...to be more important...I came to this conclusion based on what he said....ie...he wants the alerts to force specific build teams....healer, tank, etc.
What the OP and others do not understand...is that if you force players to only be able to complete something one way or make them too difficult...they simply wont play that content anymore.
Players want open freedom to choose....as examples of this you can look at what happened when they put level banding in Star Trek Online....or look at the actual hero games in this game....or how about the 10 player sky raid one....dont see people in those ques much at all do you?
The unfortunate thing is that this game has alot of mini-missions....there are not alot of team oriented missions..thus it literally enforces a solo playstyle...
Which maybe what is truly bothering the OP in the first place....maybe the entire..."Too much DPS" is the sympton of that perception....of there not enough team play.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
Maybe allowing players to choose the difficulties for alert will be fun.
Elite tough monsters in alerts should be fun as they have more defense and dodge ability which makes them harder to kill.
Also, if you feel bad that your team mates are killing too fast, you can choose an AT or build a freeform with powers that can attack from 100 feet~120 feet so that you have the chance to perform.
Range tank can have some dps if you build properly.
It's not a matter of difficulty. I've been in many alerts that are plenty tough. The problem arises when there are specific powers in use that render 90% of the mission meaningless.
DPS should be doing significant damage, but one dps power should be comparable - balanced against - other dps powers. I don't see that balance. Certain powers are simply outperforming all other powers. They're not balanced against each other.
Again though, I don't really expect any change. I was just hoping to generate some discussion on the issue.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
What the OP and others do not understand...is that if you force players to only be able to complete something one way or make them too difficult...they simply wont play that content anymore.
Players want open freedom to choose....as examples of this you can look at what happened when they put level banding in Star Trek Online....or look at the actual hero games in this game....or how about the 10 player sky raid one....dont see people in those ques much at all do you?
As much as I love challange I have to disagree. Games Like Wow have quite a bit, but still are very enjoyable obviously. GW2 also can be pretty difficult, and I don't see people avoiding that game at all. This might be a casual game, and maybe the reason people think its to easy is because it wasn't developed for hardcore min/maxers.
And I really hate the argument of "If you want harder content then grab an AT/weaker build." Come on seriously? You should never have to do something like this in a good game.
It's not a matter of difficulty. I've been in many alerts that are plenty tough. The problem arises when there are specific powers in use that render 90% of the mission meaningless.
DPS should be doing significant damage, but one dps power should be comparable - balanced against - other dps powers. I don't see that balance. Certain powers are simply outperforming all other powers. They're not balanced against each other.
Again though, I don't really expect any change. I was just hoping to generate some discussion on the issue.
OK wait, this last post is significantly different from the OP. So you are saying that there is a lack of balance of powers and not that there is too much DPS?
It is true that Hurricane or Epidemic is a great power for sweeping the mobs. Large area of effect and nice damage. However, I do not understand why that has become the focus of your argument. Like someone else posted earlier the main aim of the alert is to take out the boss. The mobs are there to irritate glass cannons who do not take them out but went straight for the boss. Other than the fact that the counter for all alerts except the red alert fails to show your contribution to the mission but really you should not be to excessively concerned about those minions which are being as another put it "cannon fodder".
The purpose of the alerts will be given to you so focus on that. It is not possible for any epidemic spammer to take out the boss in any alert in a single maintain. For that matter, not even 5 maintains. That will be easily 20 seconds or more.
Now comparatively, Epidemic will not perform as well as lightning arc or 2GM against a boss. Epidemic and Hurricane has a larger AoE but slightly lower damage which ramps up compared to other range AoE for example. Epidemic and Hurricane also requires the player to be nearer than say a 50ft range AoE that has higher damage but smaller area. They are designed to be different. It will be hard to balance powers designed to work differently and as another suggested, do not nerf but buff.
As much as I love customization I have to disagree. Games Like Wow have very little, but still are very enjoyable obviously. Even Guild wars took LESS customization with GW2 and still has no problem having people play its content. In fact if you looked at statistics, you might even say that customization leads people away from games, as this game is not the best selling right now compared to other big names.
And I really hate the argument of "If you want harder content then grab an AT/weaker build." Come on seriously? You should never have to do something like this in a good game.
It is really a spiral up or spiral down. For progression sake, we should spiral up, meaning, more difficult content, greater powers, greater gears, more spending etc.
Nerfing and making content simple is regressive. Hence the call for raising of leel cap which has been stagnant for a long time. Already, the devs are coming out with harder hitting bosses and content. Why not raise the level cap?
It's not a matter of difficulty. I've been in many alerts that are plenty tough. The problem arises when there are specific powers in use that render 90% of the mission meaningless.
DPS should be doing significant damage, but one dps power should be comparable - balanced against - other dps powers. I don't see that balance. Certain powers are simply outperforming all other powers. They're not balanced against each other.
Again though, I don't really expect any change. I was just hoping to generate some discussion on the issue.
Actually not really. If you ever try to do lair missions with elite difficulty, you will notice that the monsters are much more harder to kill and take longer time to finish them. Have you ever try the elite Therakiel Temple? or elite Viper Nest, etc.
Anyway, it is why freeform exists. With the correct matches of power, a player will have a lot dps. And with the legion gear exist, it even more devastating. There is not really a serious imbalance in the powers. If you want to play as tank, then don't expect you have a decent dps. If you see a super dps in your team, you can always move away from the player and go find other monsters which is away from him while he is dealing with a team of monsters in an alert. If you want to be as powerful as that, you can try build your own freeform.
Also, I mentioned earlier, you can always take powers which has 100 feet or 120 feet range so that you can hit monsters fast before other players wipe them out.
OK wait, this last post is significantly different from the OP. So you are saying that there is a lack of balance of powers and not that there is too much DPS?.....
Yup, the reason is because I already spelled out what he was saying and so have others, now it's being turned into a everything is OP and unbalanced style thread, instead of discussing the issues of Epidemic and Hurricane which seem to be the issue of DPS for him.
Ive been reading this thread for the comedy of it!
Hes comparing aoe trash killers and charge up single target powers used against trash to say that the aoe trash killing powers are OP!
It would work just the same comparing single target powers and aoe powers against a boss! The single target power would be 'way overpowered' killing a single target in less than half the time an aoe would!
Its NOT overpowered, its comparing different things doing something one of them is specialised to do and the other isnt...
It is really a spiral up or spiral down. For progression sake, we should spiral up, meaning, more difficult content, greater powers, greater gears, more spending etc.
Nerfing and making content simple is regressive. Hence the call for raising of leel cap which has been stagnant for a long time. Already, the devs are coming out with harder hitting bosses and content. Why not raise the level cap?
I can agree with you fully that the level cap needs to be raised. With out a doubt that would make this game better alone. But content is very easy as it is, whether that's because of the possible builds, or because of the content itself. That gravity woman boss is a step in the right direction, were only dedicated tanks can hold her aggro. The rest of the game should do that.
OK wait, this last post is significantly different from the OP. So you are saying that there is a lack of balance of powers and not that there is too much DPS?
The original post was meant to discuss certain powers that have too much DPS, Epidemic chief among them, relative to other powers. As has come up, there are a few other powers in the same boat. Because of this, they're out of balance with the rest of the game.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
The original post was meant to discuss certain powers that have too much DPS, Epidemic chief among them, relative to other powers. As has come up, there are a few other powers in the same boat. Because of this, they're out of balance with the rest of the game.
Let's just say it again...POWERS ARE NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
As much as I love challange I have to disagree. Games Like Wow have quite a bit, but still are very enjoyable obviously. GW2 also can be pretty difficult, and I don't see people avoiding that game at all. This might be a casual game, and maybe the reason people think its to easy is because it wasn't developed for hardcore min/maxers.
And I really hate the argument of "If you want harder content then grab an AT/weaker build." Come on seriously? You should never have to do something like this in a good game.
You see people are avoiding the content now....WOW..for example has the biggest player drops for that reason...difficulty and forced play style......and you bring up guild wars 2....not only has gw2 suffered from alot less players since launch....but that is the#1 complaint from players.....not only do both those games own forums show this...but forums from gamefaqs for example or mmorpg show these to be to top topics.
Its funny....but when first the gw2 came out or when wow first put out one of their raid encounters....so many said they liked this sort of thing....then those particular vocal few left....and suddenly the new majority hate it.....Irony at its best.
But I can understand.....forced play alienates the majority of players....one player wants to something but ends up not being able to because they are the wrong class....or dont have the right equipment....or dont play or use powers in a combination that other players want them too....It Elite-ism at iys worst that difficulty being too high or forced game play brings about....I can name hundreds of games that have this happening.....even happens slightly in this game...not as much...but happens.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
But I can understand.....forced play alienates the majority of players....one player wants to something but ends up not being able to because they are the wrong class....or dont have the right equipment....or dont play or use powers in a combination that other players want them too....It Elite-ism at iys worst that difficulty being too high or forced game play brings about....I can name hundreds of games that have this happening.....even happens slightly in this game...not as much...but happens.
Both WoW and GW2 have sold well over a million copies. These people obviously don't feel alienated. This game could only dream of the addictive success of these franchises. So I REALLY don't think people are that against more difficulty and less customization as you would think. Ya maybe when you put it on paper people want one thing, but when it comes down to crunching numbers these things don't even factor. Yes this game has a loyal fan base but its small. I love it. I would love to see it thrive, and maybe higher levels and more difficulty is what it needs to do that.
Both WoW and GW2 have sold well over a million copies. These people obviously don't feel alienated. This game could only dream of the addictive success of these franchises. So I REALLY don't think people are that against more difficulty and less customization as you would think. Ya maybe when you put it on paper people want one thing, but when it comes down to crunching numbers these things don't even factor. Yes this game has a loyal fan base but its small. I love it. I would love to see it thrive, and maybe higher levels and more difficulty is what it needs to do that.
Hmm, rather than more difficulty, maybe a difficulty that requires brains rather than just maxing out a character's dps and defense?
Both WoW and GW2 have sold well over a million copies. These people obviously don't feel alienated. This game could only dream of the addictive success of these franchises. So I REALLY don't think people are that against more difficulty and less customization as you would think. Ya maybe when you put it on paper people want one thing, but when it comes down to crunching numbers these things don't even factor. Yes this game has a loyal fan base but its small. I love it. I would love to see it thrive, and maybe higher levels and more difficulty is what it needs to do that.
Thats the interesting thing about those games...if they have a million players they would make 15 million a month...yet they never seam to make more then 1 or 2 million...to a point...blizzard announced a very huge shortfall a few years ago...which is odd if they have the players they say they do.
But go figure Vivendi being in charge means they can do what they want and make it up as they go along.
But you are right...adding an option for difficulty might be somthing to do....
But imposing higher difficulty on the players....is just going to make more dead content...also creating artificial needs for specific player builds and powers will do the same.
But if its an option only....good gravy....it will bring about lots of players saying how great it is....no matter how badly implemented the options are.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
Thats the interesting thing about those games...if they have a million players they would make 15 million a month...yet they never seam to make more then 1 or 2 million...
It's often bandied about that many of WoW's paying customers are in Asia, paying by the hour, not a monthly. GW2 is not pay to play, you buy the box and play as long as the servers are up.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
It's often bandied about that many of WoW's paying customers are in Asia, paying by the hour, not a monthly. GW2 is not pay to play, you buy the box and play as long as the servers are up.
Ah sorry i wasnt making that clear on the money thing....I was meaning for world of ********.
And yah I have heard that rumor too....about the asian customers....but the problem is the actual populations on the servers...is just not there..and numbers just dont add up for it...i mean with a million thats 15 million a month and with the numbers the ill fated rumor site tells you(the one that tells you fake statistics for how many players are in each country who play world of ********)...thats in excess of 200 million per month...which again doesnt add up.
gah...i am going off topic on this......>_<
sorry....
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
Ive been reading this thread for the comedy of it!
Hes comparing aoe trash killers and charge up single target powers used against trash to say that the aoe trash killing powers are OP!
It would work just the same comparing single target powers and aoe powers against a boss! The single target power would be 'way overpowered' killing a single target in less than half the time an aoe would!
Its NOT overpowered, its comparing different things doing something one of them is specialised to do and the other isnt...
This is why I still check in. But when everybody's pretty much said the same thing and it all appears to go right over the OP's head, it's less about funny, its just kinda...sad.
This is why I still check in. But when everybody's pretty much said the same thing and it all appears to go right over the OP's head, it's less about funny, its just kinda...sad.
Ah, insults. The last refuge of those that feel they're losing an argument.
I have understood what others have said. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. The difference is that I can disagree without being disagreeable.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Asking that others be punished for the shortcomings of your playstyle is very disagreeable to me.
Asking that others not be allowed to do with their builds what you can with yours is very disagreeable to me.
You may find the suggestions disagreeable. However, I'm not being disagreeable by making the suggestion. I have not insulted, denigrated, belittled or arbitrarily dismissed anyone here.
You're welcome to disagree with me. You're welcome to offer your opinion as I've offered mine. You're not welcome to insult or degrade me while doing it (unless I've done so first - and I apologize if anyone has taken my comments that way, as that is never my intent).
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
I am nearly insulting you for failing to see and acknowledge the opinions of others. So far, you have provided your reasons yet you brush off the counter arguments of others.
Lot's of people have made their own reasons clear why they don't agree with you and yet i have seen you not even taken the courtesy of replying to them.
All of your complaints comes from the shortcoming of your own playing style and builds.
I can agree with you fully that the level cap needs to be raised. With out a doubt that would make this game better alone. But content is very easy as it is, whether that's because of the possible builds, or because of the content itself. That gravity woman boss is a step in the right direction, were only dedicated tanks can hold her aggro. The rest of the game should do that.
Do you realize, that the actual level cap says nothing about your character's true level, since on alert went live? The additional stat points from moddable gear compared to the pre - on alert gear is quite a big gain in power one would assume... You may see lvl 40 written next to your character, but if you take a closer look at how things have changed you will most likely come to the conclusion, that your real lvl is around 50-60 already.
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#edit:This means, that lvl 40 characters with lvl 60 stats are getting sidekicked to lvl 30 and run through the trash mobs like they wouldn't even exist. Raising the difficulty from Elite to Nightmare for example would be a good way to compensate our own "new" strength(s). Brackets for said alerts would solve the problems that the TS seems to be witnessing instantly, too.
Besides, if you expect a fully geared maxed out max lvl toon to struggle taking down trash creeps...
nvm i'll be silent.
Kind of funny. The people who disagree with the OP have can definitely be viewed as rude in there responses, and the OP can definitely be viewed as single minded. Saying that anyone in this thread acted civil is kind of pointless, because civil is really a matter of opinion.
So lets all get off that high horse and stop pointing fingers at other people when no one here is perfect by any mean, even when used lightly. People take the right to be offended to serious...
Ah, insults. The last refuge of those that feel they're losing an argument.
I have understood what others have said. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. The difference is that I can disagree without being disagreeable.
Let me just say...if someone points something out to you when multiple people agree with what has been pointed out and repeat it to you, you dont -have- to listen but it is pretty lame if you don't.
No one feels as if they are loosing an arguement. It can't be an arguement when the opposing party doesnt process what they have said it becomes as futile as throwing a small lump of icecream at a brick wall in an attempt to knock it down.
Disagreeablilty on your part came when you wanted to nerf the DPS element of the game because you couldnt fire off a few powers in an Alert. That right there is/was the essence of your initial arguement. When others and I pointed this out, you then switched your focus to game balance. Which from reading the original OP was not the intended direction. The intent of the OP was to get DPS nerfed so that "everyone" could participate in Alerts, when no one agreed with you and gave you simple tactics like targetting the boss to overcome this isssue you had with Alerts you dont seem to have taken that into account and continue to chat about game balance based on one power you have seen. If you dislike Epidemic so much don't use it. Simple. If you want to keep high DPS out of your alerts, form a pre made team with a bunch of Radiant/Mind AT's so that you can fire off your powers.
And to make your case even worse you previously stated that you were leaving the game anyway.
So why you'd want to ruin the main playstyle of CO then run off, makes alot of sense actually and is very logical....said no one ever. :rolleyes:
From my point of view DPS will not be nerfed anytime soon, perhaps it is time to bring other styles of play up to speed instead. Better and easier threat generation in Tank Role, allowing them to override DPS threat generation (as suggested by SilverSpar) for example.
If anything which needs to be modified it is the passive Pestilence. I'd say largely that passive is to blame for Infernal being quite powerful, but that is just my own opinion.
Comments
You can't force a change in somebody's mind, you can try to influence them (and yes, gunpoint threatening is even a form of influence). But ultimately the change of heart comes from within not without. ColonelMarik will never see what the rest of us see, he's convinced he's right and everyone else is wrong.
The only thing that can be done is to just let this thread die already... (i.e.: stop bumping it)
No kidding.
FYI: Just today I'd say an average of 75% successes and 25% total-waste-of-my-time failures. I would like my time back for insufficient DPS & teamwork, but then I'd just sound like Colonelmarik in reverse. Ironically, there's far more issues with insufficient DPS than "too much DPS". The driving factor in most of this is the people playing the game, not the game mechanics themselves. The game mechanics are actually quite well balanced these days, whether you choose to admit that or not. (of course there's always room for debate & improvement)
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
If you want to talk about balance, talk about Telepathy insane nerfs, talk about PFF, talk about insufficient threat for tanks, etc...
But a dpser who can dps? No, that's not unbalanced.
I'm not even playing anymore (or at least hardly ever now) but I like this thread. It's kind of funny to watch one guy make the same complaint over and over and completely ignore the input of what's been right in front of him. Kinda reminds me of those 40s that never learned to play the game during all that grinding.
You say that because everyone can use the powers/items/build to solo the mobs that makes it ok? If you don't enjoy a challenge we get that, but that probably makes you a minority. A lot of other big name MMOs enjoys wild success, and can be mind numbingly hard at times. This game doesn't have that aspect, unless your trying to break/exploit the game in ways not intended. How can you blame him for asking for a challenge?
You also tell him that because he is taking time to charge his moves he is wasting yours? It doesn't bother you that a large portion of moves are obsolete or insignificant in most game play? Your mad at him for pointing out what's wrong, but not the developers for making the game more versatile?
And finally you reference "real" superheros. If you really wanted that then you wouldn't mind not having a chance to beat 60% of the game content because you play a munitions detective and the boss is a cosmic god or undead lich commander. You act like the superheros we know are fair in any way. The incredible Hulk vs Jubilee from the X-men. Nuff said about that.
Note: Telepathy was destroyed due to one advantage on one power which could have been either removed or modified so it self rooted. Instead PvPer's who complained about it being OP, some wrongly attributed Ego Storm to being OP instead of the advantage, this was then "Balanced" by Cryptic by virtually removing Crowd Control mechanic from the game and putting the silly incapacitates system in place, which was floored on the basis that the only person it incapacitates is the user V_V... As for PFF, that was recently fixed to what it should be (still not quite there but I'm content with it's state atm). IMO Tanks need to have a new way to generate moar threat, which should be innate.
IMO, DPS is powerful, this seems to be a more melee vs ranged issue in his latest example. From personal experience I never wasted Shadow Strike on a mob person unless they were all that was around. I usually went for the boss, as soon as others were turning their attention to them.
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I think since everyone can understand what he has written and are replying accordingly...people arent missing the point.
Which is, The original poster feels there is too much DPS in the game as in it is too potent for him to use his powers in a PUG situation. In a PUG situation there are a hilarious amount of team combinations that can be achieved which provide success or failure dependant on everyone's character. This uncertainty can cause certain powers in THAT situation to be useless/not worth charging up, an example would be a Mind AT using Ego Sleep in an Alert with 4 FF Infernals.
He isnt asking for a challenge as much as he is asking for DPS power to be nerfed, so that his build can fire off desired powers. Which in essence is unfair. Ruining someone else's play style has been done before (My lovely Crowd Control) and I hated it. I wouldnt wish it on the main drive power style of the game,as this is a fast paced action game.
Huh? I think everyone has experienced the situation where we have charged up an attack and then before we let it loose our target is dead. So what if that happens? You pick a different target and move on. That has happened to me more times than I care to remember yet I am not bitter about it. The examples given by colonelmarik (from what I have seen) come from PUG situations, not all situations in game can be generalised by PUG/Alerts as it is not representative of the game. I stand by the fact that the majority of DPS is fine and welcomed especially in Alerts with a timer. No one is forced to run Alerts you can just team with people and do content, you can even run a controller if you really wanted. Again I will stress that DPS isnt so powerful that one infernal blast or Lightning Arc would wipe out a boss or something but it is powerful, I think perhaps as powerful as Healing. Then again if a thread with Too Much Healing came along, you could easily counter that by running a build with no healing capability.
Just pack a supply of special cosmic nullifying bullets and a few team mates. As for Hulk vs Jubilee...she blinds him with a massive firework blast and runs off :biggrin:
Although I cant see a situations where they would be fighting...or even in the same vicinity...
Munitions Detectives only come across those bosses because they follow the plot all the way up to the head honcho. Batman has no problem taking on some otherwise super human foes.
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I addressed this early on in the thread. Asking for challenge is fine. Asking for challenge in Level 6 content like Grab Alerts on the other hand...
The problem isn't that he's charging his moves, but that he's charging moves in the wrong situation, i.e. attacking the wrong targets or just plain using the wrong move like a single target, full charge-only Shadow Strike on trash instead of an AoE Ricochet throw that can be released early.
I use characters built around charge attacks and they kill things just fine. My favorite example, Ebon Ruin followed by Ebon Rift with Vengeful Shadows. That has potential to drop Master Villains in Grabs in 3.5 seconds solo (Master Villain in corner, critical hit on Ruin followed by 2 critical hit juggles on Rift).
And no, I have yet to be out-DPSed by the mythical Epidemic users who supposedly solo all spawns in Grabs in 2 seconds yet. Not even my own Epidemic spammer could do that, and she was capable of some pretty crazy stuff, like soloing GRAB and Mega-D with an offensive passive and consistently topping scores on Red Winter by huge margins.
Comments in Orange
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
To be fair, this is nothing new. Charge powers in CO are inferior to maintains and have been since beta. There are situational exceptions, most notably the alpha spike, or the now-defunct stun + imbue-cade. Tbh, I believe the current dev team recognizes this, and are slowly moving away from fully charging such powers being the "best" use of them. To wit, Ricochet Throw, which does better dps tapped unless charged from stealth.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
The variance in the amount of DPS results from the number of options people have when making their builds and how they gear up. Vixy would rather have those options remain than be taken away.
Also...
CHANGES TO POWERS ARE NOT GOING TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
I'd love it if you passed some of that "so insane DPS" my way.
Pinny Foxfang - 60 Guardian Fighter
Pinny Foxfire - 60 Scourge Warlock (Temptation)
I think Dragon's Wrath and Dragon's Claws are pretty hard to beat for any single target PvE situation. But finding a charge power that beats Lightning Storm and UA'd Conflag for AoE DPS is another question altogether.
1) I didnt say it was too much for YOU in the sense it may come across as. Mobs are meant to be trashy, not too difficult to overcome for a single hero. As far as I am aware bosses cannot be one shotted by DPS like Epidemic. Therefore the simple fact is DPS is doing its job, it's DPSing. Having little to no DPS in an Alert situation. Besided everyone is nerf/buffed in an alert thanks to the lvl 30 cap, so balance is not a prevalent issue in an Alert, which is meant to be a quick situation so DPS in general is welcomed. Seeing as your examples from what I have read seem to be from Alert situations you may want to take examples from other areas of gameplay first, before suggesting about ways to nerf DPS for balance sake.
2) If your power is a charge up power target the boss! Or the highest HP mob member, simple solution. The fact that you are unable to fire off such powers may mean you need to prioritise high HP targets first. Instead of targetting mobs which are meant to be finished quickly and then complaining that they arent killable by your power because you dont want to use a maintain. For example, it's very common for a target to be finished off 3 times over by Lightning Arc before I can fire off a force cascade, as a result of this knowledge I switch targets as I anticipate that it would happen and then happily fire off force cascades on the boss and whatever else gets in the way.
I had to quote this:
Been said loads now. TARGET THE BOSS. I'm certain one maintain of Epidemic won't kill him off.
Are you seriously asking for balance from a PUG group?! It stands for Pick Up Group as in not preplanned unless you are on a team. Do you expect the game to pick players matched on damage potential and defense and shove them into a team? Clearly not. So there is no balance in PUG groups hence why some who dont like that team up. Nerfing DPS would not bring balance to PUG/Alerts AT ALL.
And therein lies the magic...they can't. So what if Epidemic is powerful? If you are so against it make an SG base devoted to non Epidemic builds and run Alerts with them. Nerfing Epidemic isnt going to bring about total game balance. It seems that you are just a tad bitter about Epidemic, similar to the way I feel about DW's defense penetration, but as long as I dont duel ppl with DW, I dont mind at all.
@Highlighted : Yes this is true...it makes the Alert go faster so that everyone can concentrate on the main objective, which is the boss. I've never heard of anyone in an Alert team complain because Epidemic wiped out the mob making it less of an issue to defeat boss and therefore pass the alert and gain a reward.
My advice to you is, focus on the boss. Stray mob members who survive the AoE can be picked off by you if you feel the need to take out at least one mob member. My advice stands, accept or ignore it. Either way, no one is complaining when healers out heal the damage they receive from a boss or when a tank regains agro from a squishy DPS. This in all fairness seems to be less about balance and more about I want to kill mob members too.
There are plenty of mob members in CO outside of Alerts.
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I actually do have a single Infernal build despite my raging against the set and it's powers. Alina is Fireform Epidemic/Defile/Devour Essence/Concentration and Condemn. She has naff all health and lots of DPS but is fitted with Fireflight coz it looks good on her...
Lolz if I can get to the mobs before the rest do then yes I can melt 2 x Viper Enforcers and a big PA guy with approx 4 secs of Epidemic. But you gotta get there before the rest do it for you. Yeah them Radiation alerts are kinda jokey difficulty wise and in order to get some you gotta bring maintains and lightspeed or similar.
P.S. Alina is kind of alternate world version of Alma Wade (a victim of Argent Technology Corp) Lolz no health and lots of dying + respawning is kinda thematic. You can drive her off but you can't kill her.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Whats was said:
What he should have said:
People have highly varied build/skill levels in Alerts it seems. Maybe we could have different difficulties and levels for alerts? maybe dedicated roles to help me participate. Just suggestions of course.
What was said:
What he should have said:
There should be rewards for team work, as soloing alerts is both easy and mundane. Several powers in this game lend to very DPS heavy builds, and these alerts stand no chance. Again a difficulty slider or a more options would be great, although I would also like to see a slight change to these builds. I do not believe a champion should be able to hold a mobs aggro easily with little risk, whilst putting out this sort of DPS.
What was said:
What he should have said:
There should be a greater risk for pushing your DPS as far as you can, and less defensive benefits. Glass cannon should be just that. Glass. I understand this is a Superhero game, but it is a game, and thus requires balance.
What was said:
What he should have said:
Maybe there could be a refocus of roles some time in the future, if even a slight one. Or maybe an alert re-vamp. Regardless, feedback is always welcome and I appreciate your thoughts on this matter!
Anyway, feel free to start your own thread.
Oh, one last thing : No matter how I reword it in sweeter and more politically correct words, the meaning speaks loud and clear enough.
If something is more powerful then ask for the weaker to be buffed. I'm really kinda tired of seeing everything nerfed to hell.
You see thats the other thing.....you are talking about fighting minions....not a boss...not a legendary...
And thats an issue in it self.....the alert isnt about the minions....its about the main enemies....players are not some super powered character who should only be fighting at clark kent level....the object is to become better not weaker.....the minions should be taken out fast because they are cannon fodder...and not the main story....even the missions where you are to clear the courtyard or whatever first....thats nothing more then build up for the main bad guy.
So really I just dont think there is any issue....other than you couldnt keep up with some other player.
And by the way...if you supposedly could take them down super fast...you would have...otherwise its just plain dumb to deliberatly try to make the team almost fail in a timed alert.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
Anyone with single target attack just attacking Mobs and don't go Boss just to survive only yourself is just useless for team.
And thats the reason I quit to queue most of the Alerts.
And plz learn. You can TAP your charge attack.
What he should have said:
People have highly varied build/skill levels in Alerts it seems. Maybe we could have different difficulties and levels for alerts? maybe dedicated roles to help me participate. Just suggestions of course.
What was said:
I think what the OP wants is for the alerts to be more difficult period.....because there are in his mind too many players able to do them without major issues.
And he wants his specific power set...to be more important...I came to this conclusion based on what he said....ie...he wants the alerts to force specific build teams....healer, tank, etc.
What the OP and others do not understand...is that if you force players to only be able to complete something one way or make them too difficult...they simply wont play that content anymore.
Players want open freedom to choose....as examples of this you can look at what happened when they put level banding in Star Trek Online....or look at the actual hero games in this game....or how about the 10 player sky raid one....dont see people in those ques much at all do you?
The unfortunate thing is that this game has alot of mini-missions....there are not alot of team oriented missions..thus it literally enforces a solo playstyle...
Which maybe what is truly bothering the OP in the first place....maybe the entire..."Too much DPS" is the sympton of that perception....of there not enough team play.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
Elite tough monsters in alerts should be fun as they have more defense and dodge ability which makes them harder to kill.
Also, if you feel bad that your team mates are killing too fast, you can choose an AT or build a freeform with powers that can attack from 100 feet~120 feet so that you have the chance to perform.
Range tank can have some dps if you build properly.
DPS should be doing significant damage, but one dps power should be comparable - balanced against - other dps powers. I don't see that balance. Certain powers are simply outperforming all other powers. They're not balanced against each other.
Again though, I don't really expect any change. I was just hoping to generate some discussion on the issue.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
As much as I love challange I have to disagree. Games Like Wow have quite a bit, but still are very enjoyable obviously. GW2 also can be pretty difficult, and I don't see people avoiding that game at all. This might be a casual game, and maybe the reason people think its to easy is because it wasn't developed for hardcore min/maxers.
And I really hate the argument of "If you want harder content then grab an AT/weaker build." Come on seriously? You should never have to do something like this in a good game.
OK wait, this last post is significantly different from the OP. So you are saying that there is a lack of balance of powers and not that there is too much DPS?
It is true that Hurricane or Epidemic is a great power for sweeping the mobs. Large area of effect and nice damage. However, I do not understand why that has become the focus of your argument. Like someone else posted earlier the main aim of the alert is to take out the boss. The mobs are there to irritate glass cannons who do not take them out but went straight for the boss. Other than the fact that the counter for all alerts except the red alert fails to show your contribution to the mission but really you should not be to excessively concerned about those minions which are being as another put it "cannon fodder".
The purpose of the alerts will be given to you so focus on that. It is not possible for any epidemic spammer to take out the boss in any alert in a single maintain. For that matter, not even 5 maintains. That will be easily 20 seconds or more.
Now comparatively, Epidemic will not perform as well as lightning arc or 2GM against a boss. Epidemic and Hurricane has a larger AoE but slightly lower damage which ramps up compared to other range AoE for example. Epidemic and Hurricane also requires the player to be nearer than say a 50ft range AoE that has higher damage but smaller area. They are designed to be different. It will be hard to balance powers designed to work differently and as another suggested, do not nerf but buff.
It is really a spiral up or spiral down. For progression sake, we should spiral up, meaning, more difficult content, greater powers, greater gears, more spending etc.
Nerfing and making content simple is regressive. Hence the call for raising of leel cap which has been stagnant for a long time. Already, the devs are coming out with harder hitting bosses and content. Why not raise the level cap?
Actually not really. If you ever try to do lair missions with elite difficulty, you will notice that the monsters are much more harder to kill and take longer time to finish them. Have you ever try the elite Therakiel Temple? or elite Viper Nest, etc.
Anyway, it is why freeform exists. With the correct matches of power, a player will have a lot dps. And with the legion gear exist, it even more devastating. There is not really a serious imbalance in the powers. If you want to play as tank, then don't expect you have a decent dps. If you see a super dps in your team, you can always move away from the player and go find other monsters which is away from him while he is dealing with a team of monsters in an alert. If you want to be as powerful as that, you can try build your own freeform.
Also, I mentioned earlier, you can always take powers which has 100 feet or 120 feet range so that you can hit monsters fast before other players wipe them out.
Yup, the reason is because I already spelled out what he was saying and so have others, now it's being turned into a everything is OP and unbalanced style thread, instead of discussing the issues of Epidemic and Hurricane which seem to be the issue of DPS for him.
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Hes comparing aoe trash killers and charge up single target powers used against trash to say that the aoe trash killing powers are OP!
It would work just the same comparing single target powers and aoe powers against a boss! The single target power would be 'way overpowered' killing a single target in less than half the time an aoe would!
Its NOT overpowered, its comparing different things doing something one of them is specialised to do and the other isnt...
I can agree with you fully that the level cap needs to be raised. With out a doubt that would make this game better alone. But content is very easy as it is, whether that's because of the possible builds, or because of the content itself. That gravity woman boss is a step in the right direction, were only dedicated tanks can hold her aggro. The rest of the game should do that.
The original post was meant to discuss certain powers that have too much DPS, Epidemic chief among them, relative to other powers. As has come up, there are a few other powers in the same boat. Because of this, they're out of balance with the rest of the game.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Let's just say it again...POWERS ARE NOT YOUR PROBLEM.
It's the grouping of players.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
You see people are avoiding the content now....WOW..for example has the biggest player drops for that reason...difficulty and forced play style......and you bring up guild wars 2....not only has gw2 suffered from alot less players since launch....but that is the#1 complaint from players.....not only do both those games own forums show this...but forums from gamefaqs for example or mmorpg show these to be to top topics.
Its funny....but when first the gw2 came out or when wow first put out one of their raid encounters....so many said they liked this sort of thing....then those particular vocal few left....and suddenly the new majority hate it.....Irony at its best.
But I can understand.....forced play alienates the majority of players....one player wants to something but ends up not being able to because they are the wrong class....or dont have the right equipment....or dont play or use powers in a combination that other players want them too....It Elite-ism at iys worst that difficulty being too high or forced game play brings about....I can name hundreds of games that have this happening.....even happens slightly in this game...not as much...but happens.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
Both WoW and GW2 have sold well over a million copies. These people obviously don't feel alienated. This game could only dream of the addictive success of these franchises. So I REALLY don't think people are that against more difficulty and less customization as you would think. Ya maybe when you put it on paper people want one thing, but when it comes down to crunching numbers these things don't even factor. Yes this game has a loyal fan base but its small. I love it. I would love to see it thrive, and maybe higher levels and more difficulty is what it needs to do that.
Hmm, rather than more difficulty, maybe a difficulty that requires brains rather than just maxing out a character's dps and defense?
Thats the interesting thing about those games...if they have a million players they would make 15 million a month...yet they never seam to make more then 1 or 2 million...to a point...blizzard announced a very huge shortfall a few years ago...which is odd if they have the players they say they do.
But go figure Vivendi being in charge means they can do what they want and make it up as they go along.
But you are right...adding an option for difficulty might be somthing to do....
But imposing higher difficulty on the players....is just going to make more dead content...also creating artificial needs for specific player builds and powers will do the same.
But if its an option only....good gravy....it will bring about lots of players saying how great it is....no matter how badly implemented the options are.
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
It's often bandied about that many of WoW's paying customers are in Asia, paying by the hour, not a monthly. GW2 is not pay to play, you buy the box and play as long as the servers are up.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Ah sorry i wasnt making that clear on the money thing....I was meaning for world of ********.
And yah I have heard that rumor too....about the asian customers....but the problem is the actual populations on the servers...is just not there..and numbers just dont add up for it...i mean with a million thats 15 million a month and with the numbers the ill fated rumor site tells you(the one that tells you fake statistics for how many players are in each country who play world of ********)...thats in excess of 200 million per month...which again doesnt add up.
gah...i am going off topic on this......>_<
sorry....
Power without Perception is Spiritually useless and therefore of no true value.
=^_^=
This is why I still check in. But when everybody's pretty much said the same thing and it all appears to go right over the OP's head, it's less about funny, its just kinda...sad.
Stop being the creepy old man at the party and come back to play!
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Signed signed signed
Ah, insults. The last refuge of those that feel they're losing an argument.
I have understood what others have said. That doesn't mean I have to agree with them. The difference is that I can disagree without being disagreeable.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Afraid that I have to disagree.
Asking that others be punished for the shortcomings of your playstyle is very disagreeable to me.
Asking that others not be allowed to do with their builds what you can with yours is very disagreeable to me.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
You may find the suggestions disagreeable. However, I'm not being disagreeable by making the suggestion. I have not insulted, denigrated, belittled or arbitrarily dismissed anyone here.
You're welcome to disagree with me. You're welcome to offer your opinion as I've offered mine. You're not welcome to insult or degrade me while doing it (unless I've done so first - and I apologize if anyone has taken my comments that way, as that is never my intent).
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Lot's of people have made their own reasons clear why they don't agree with you and yet i have seen you not even taken the courtesy of replying to them.
All of your complaints comes from the shortcoming of your own playing style and builds.
I disagree.
Suggesting that someone else be mistreated for your benefit is disagreeable (in my opinion) no matter how politely you phrase the suggestion.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Do you realize, that the actual level cap says nothing about your character's true level, since on alert went live? The additional stat points from moddable gear compared to the pre - on alert gear is quite a big gain in power one would assume... You may see lvl 40 written next to your character, but if you take a closer look at how things have changed you will most likely come to the conclusion, that your real lvl is around 50-60 already.
--
#edit:This means, that lvl 40 characters with lvl 60 stats are getting sidekicked to lvl 30 and run through the trash mobs like they wouldn't even exist. Raising the difficulty from Elite to Nightmare for example would be a good way to compensate our own "new" strength(s). Brackets for said alerts would solve the problems that the TS seems to be witnessing instantly, too.
Besides, if you expect a fully geared maxed out max lvl toon to struggle taking down trash creeps...
nvm i'll be silent.
x)
So lets all get off that high horse and stop pointing fingers at other people when no one here is perfect by any mean, even when used lightly. People take the right to be offended to serious...
Let me just say...if someone points something out to you when multiple people agree with what has been pointed out and repeat it to you, you dont -have- to listen but it is pretty lame if you don't.
No one feels as if they are loosing an arguement. It can't be an arguement when the opposing party doesnt process what they have said it becomes as futile as throwing a small lump of icecream at a brick wall in an attempt to knock it down.
Disagreeablilty on your part came when you wanted to nerf the DPS element of the game because you couldnt fire off a few powers in an Alert. That right there is/was the essence of your initial arguement. When others and I pointed this out, you then switched your focus to game balance. Which from reading the original OP was not the intended direction. The intent of the OP was to get DPS nerfed so that "everyone" could participate in Alerts, when no one agreed with you and gave you simple tactics like targetting the boss to overcome this isssue you had with Alerts you dont seem to have taken that into account and continue to chat about game balance based on one power you have seen. If you dislike Epidemic so much don't use it. Simple. If you want to keep high DPS out of your alerts, form a pre made team with a bunch of Radiant/Mind AT's so that you can fire off your powers.
And to make your case even worse you previously stated that you were leaving the game anyway.
So why you'd want to ruin the main playstyle of CO then run off, makes alot of sense actually and is very logical....said no one ever. :rolleyes:
From my point of view DPS will not be nerfed anytime soon, perhaps it is time to bring other styles of play up to speed instead. Better and easier threat generation in Tank Role, allowing them to override DPS threat generation (as suggested by SilverSpar) for example.
If anything which needs to be modified it is the passive Pestilence. I'd say largely that passive is to blame for Infernal being quite powerful, but that is just my own opinion.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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