Now, I'm not blaming the player. He's using his powers as they were designed. I blame the design, which is clearly unbalanced in some way.... I think the problem is that there is just too much DPS (as the title says).
Now hang on - yes the On Alert and F2P patches have left mobs rather aneamic but this applies across the board not just to specific powers or builds. Your character is much more capable than it once would have been.
If I take a concept (and they're all concept with me) build in to a mission then it is inevitable that someone with maybe a PVE and PVP optimised build is possibly tho not certainly gonna out do me on the damage front. I have gazed in awe as a chum of mine explained to me and demonstrated how to kill a mega destroid mob in Resistance whilst I was just busy being dead. Did the same thing with Entering Andrithal too! I did my best but my build/play was not as good as... I've taken a healer into a Grav alert only to find there was already an excellent healer present. Luckily it does DPS as well so I could contribute by laying down Skarns Bane for the debuff (it worked at that time). I have been depressed by my beastial builds poor mobslaying in comparison to electric and sword cyclone builds.
Beastial needs a review!
Someone with better attacks and better set up is going to perform better perhaps even to the point of leaving you in the dust. Never mind the powers if only I could nerf the other players to be as useless as I have sometimes felt Lolz. Sigh brains are soooo OP'd.
Gotta say I'd be very interested in what you're using if Lead Tempest seems OP'd to you.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
in this game when you use freeform your build is always relevant.
there is a synergy in powersets. if you take that away the game becomes just like every other game. i would stop playing and many others would as well. one game can not please everyone, a game becomes irrelevant when it tries.
if everything works out of the box easy to understand it becomes boring. the game is fun because of the problem solving in builds. yes we have our boring FotM players, but we have people that always try to push for better. you take the reward away from that, and they stop playing. there are plenty of games out there that dont reward clever and creative planning, if you dont like it here, you might like it there. but if you listen and learn what isnt clearly stated you will find you love it here. i love this game and though it pisses me off sometimes i dont want to leave.
players have offered to help, i would help you if you asked, but dont think your going to understand everything about this game in a few months, i hang with alot of long time players and power builders, i learn new things everyday. the more you listen and try to understand the more you will enjoy
I don't even really play anymore, but I find this thread kinda funny being the OP said he wasn't gonna play anymore after seeing how things are when he returned after a hiatus.
Complaining about the 3 highest damage maintain AOES - Sword Cyclone, Epidemic, and (NOW possible) lead tempest is kinda silly.
They're high damage because they're fast maintains which allow multiple chances for criticals. However, the OP over-exaggerates their effectiveness, and it's pretty clear the OP has little understanding of the game mechanics when you call something "the flippy thing".
I get that the OP feels underutilized in certain alerts. But that's just one perspective. How does it feel for the dps class to have to carry alerts - when I was active I rarely had the luxury of being carried - I usually had to pull double duty as tank and dps. The OP fails to consider how I feel when tanks (when they're actually around) fail to generate threat or AT healers attack when teammates need healing.
Balance has been an longstanding issue in CO - but expecting maintains to compete with charge ups is overreaching.
How does it feel for the dps class to have to carry alerts - when I was active I rarely had the luxury of being carried - I usually had to pull double duty as tank and dps. The OP fails to consider how I feel when tanks (when they're actually around) fail to generate threat or AT healers attack when teammates need healing.
I'm not sure I ever thanked you for "tanking" in the couple of Alerts we had in common. Not having to do it on my (apparently not as damaging) DPS character was a refreshing change. So thanks!
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I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
OR it could mean that tanks need more tanking help/tank better like being able to grab agro alot quicker and harder than high DPS builds and healers, thus allowing them to do their job properly.
Tanks need a threat gen buff I think or something innate to the role which makes all of their powers generate some level of threat.
I've read this entire thread word for word and while you two aren't being clear with that you're doing, Kaisering and Colonemarik, (I'd have to see it in action) it's clear you're doing something wrong. I'm going to have to back Monaahiru's L2P comment on this for you both.
Is there power creep in the game? With the initial release of On Alert, one-hit-kill bosses like Gravitar, and some of the things a fully ranked up vehicle can do? Yes. Everything else? Meh not so much... Don't forget, Elite lost it's value with on Alert (well except for Therakiel thankfully because of the costume unlock drop chance)
I can sort of see that, but asking ti nerf specific powers because a glass canon is doing what a glass canon does best... that's illogical. Kaieserin & Colonelmarik, no, just no.
Play the game a Grimoire, Mind, Behemoth, Inferno, or Glacier and you'll see a different perspective entirely, that Alert enemies are too hard even. (see Jasinblaze's point)
Also remember that a poorly designed Freeform is actually weaker than an Archetype!
Or the ability to grab agro is completely messed up.
Yes indeed. There's a suggestion to fix that btw, something the developers are aware of and expressed interest in, but sure are taking their good sweet time to get around to implementing it... Lockboxes and vehicles keep taking precedence.
The OP should be pushing for worthwhile rewards for high level group content instead of asking for higher difficulty in level 6 content =x
And yes, I consider Alerts level 6 content because they allow level 6 characters and there has been no indication of an intent to introduce level gating.
Tanks are not the only ones responsible for threat management. If you are a DPS whose entire build is dedicated purely to dealing damage...then you should expect to get hammered.
If you are more considerate, then think about how you can dump threat (Evasive Maneuver's adv) or reduce it via Pre. [correction: it's your SS, not Pre]
Threat is overlooked because the game is not hard enough for it to matter for the people who know how to manage it. Increased difficulty will surface the importance of mechanics that are outside of DPS and defense, such as threat.
We need more difficult content. Not crappier powers.
Tanks are not the only ones responsible for threat management. If you are a DPS whose entire build is dedicated purely to dealing damage...then you should expect to get hammered.
Yes & No.
Yes, it should be common sense if you're a glass canon laying down the damage, you should expect catching hell from return fire if you cannot put the foe down fast. It's "kill them before they kill you" and "choose your battles carefully" if you're a glass canon DPS build. This is common sense.
No, it's more complicated than that. Post-OnAlert tanking is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to hold threat if you're not DPS-ish yourself. This really hits Behemoth (or any might), Savage, or even Heavy Weapon tanks pretty hard. (see my signature's links)
then think about how you can dump threat (Evasive Maneuver's adv) or reduce it via PRE.
WRONG!
Look, I know you've been gone awhile but please abstain from posting misinformation until you catch back up to speed. It doesn't work that way now.
The PRE stat doesn't affect threat anymore. Threat only comes from your role, and power & advantages that increase or drop threat.
And the powers that drop threat only do so temporarily, not permanently like they used to (next combat attack you make usually restores it, you can blame smoke grenade spammers and the people who complained about it for that nerf).
We need more difficult content. Not crappier powers
Yes, but NOT more difficult with the way Cryptic has been cutting corners while you've been gone.
Bad things they've tried: exponentially more HP and defense, one-hit-kill-through-the-block attacks (i.e.: Gravitar and Level 60 Mega D's), broken scaling (Ao'Qephoth and Level 60 Mega D's), cheap glitches that are annoying rather than fun (i.e.: Rakshasa), etc
This game is a power fantasy. There is no room for challenge in a power fantasy.
This shouldn't be surprising since quite a lot of super hero content, if not darn near all of it, is power fantasies.
I understand your desire to have a cool costume editor, fun travel powers AND challenging content all in one game, but that's just not what CO is about.
After this many years, it is clear that they are not going to budge on their design philosophy as far as difficulty is concerned.
CO is a power fantasy. You are powerless to change this.
lol the enter key.
Go solo with a weak build if you want challenge.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
i think the DPS is high because 90% of players have no clue how to build.
I've been playing the game two months now, and I'd say easily 95% of the time on alerts Foxfire will wind up with boss aggro just on Two-Gun Mojo alone. Building for DPS is easy-peasy, even if you build for basic defense.
Building a proper Shazam! homage, on the other hand...
Alerts, Smash Alerts in particular, discourge being considerate to the team. They teach players how to behave selfishly.
Okay...Vixy was not discussing what Alerts teach players. It just seems to be a common thing to blame loss of aggro on the tank, without consideration of other options. That's all that Vixy is pointing out.
Your Role changes the *type of effect* on threat. But it does not *scale* the effect. Specifically for DPS roles such as Ranged and Melee Dmg...it casues the reduction of threat generation.
Look, I know you've been gone awhile but please abstain from posting misinformation until you catch back up to speed. It doesn't work that way now.
The PRE stat doesn't affect threat anymore. Threat only comes from your role, and power & advantages that increase or drop threat.
SS scales the effect on threat (thanks Xeiros)...it's not just the role. Maybe the tooltips are broken and are reporting outdated info? Certainly possible, in which case Vixy concedes.
And the powers that drop threat only do so temporarily, not permanently like they used to (next combat attack you make usually restores it, you can blame smoke grenade spammers and the people who complained about it for that nerf).
Vixy has Evasive's adv - this will be easy to test. The point still stands - DPS builds have ways to help manage threat...if they choose to do nothing then they deserve what's coming.
It's one thing if it was just sheer damage - I learned to "hold back" for the sake of aggro management in Wow and CoH.
But as I do play both Tanks and DPS pretty heavily, a lot of it falls on the tank. Don't get me wrong, People like you and me are far more familiar with the working mechanics, but a random casual player is not going to understand the value of threat gen or importance of CC/CS. There are times where DPS can gen more threat than my tanks - but those are pretty extreme cases and that's when aggro management actually becomes a factor for the dps in question.
I don't think there's too much dps - I think the problem lies in balancing the mechanics of it all, especially base damage. Maintains are optimal because they are typically hitting twice a second and each have an equal chance of critting based on crit rate. Charge ups like FC are long winded and when they don't crit that's a lotta effort for lackluster damage.
The original imbue helped even things out a bit allowing users a guaranteed crit on their charges or long cd powers like unleashed rage. Now that that's gone, for the sake of performance, only a very select number of powers are viable for damage, especially as far as the AoEs go.
There seem to be an awful lot of ridiculously high damage powers and builds these days. I'm finding it's killing alerts for me, and I thought I'd draw attention to it.
I go into alerts and start charging an attack when someone spamming Epidemic or whatever the flippy shooty thing is, or perhaps the one with the whirling swords comes superspeeding in, and before I can finish charging the attack, the whole spawn is killed off. That person then superspeeds to the next spawn and kills it off before anyone else can get there. They essentially solo the things, leaving none of the other players with anything to do.
Now, maybe it's me, but that seems like pretty excessive DPS. Yes, they should be able to do significant damage, but when they can blast through spawns built to challenge whole teams in the space of a couple of seconds, it suggests a problem.
Is it just me, or is a series of nerfs needed?
(and yes, I hate bringing it up, but perhaps it's needed)
If you have a speedy guy in an alert with you killing all the minions thats good concentrate on the big target let the zoom zoom epic guy nuke the weaklings.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
If you have a speedy guy in an alert with you killing all the minions thats good concentrate on the big target let the zoom zoom epic guy nuke the weaklings.
lol! The way you worded this made me giggle, and yes this is good advice.
Okay...Vixy was not discussing what Alerts teach players. It just seems to be a common thing to blame loss of aggro on the tank, without consideration of other options. That's all that Vixy is pointing out.
SS scales the effect on threat (thanks Xeiros)...it's not just the role. Maybe the tooltips are broken and are reporting outdated info? Certainly possible, in which case Vixy concedes.
As per Cryptic's own patch notes for the Kitchen Sink 3.0 "On Alert" patch they said that threat modifiers were only to come from role (and the superstats you have in that role), specializations (i.e. Bulwark in Hybrid role), and your superpowers' advantages (absolve, sleight of mind, crippling challenge, challenging strikes).
So to clarify, if you're in tank role it doesn't matter what superstats you choose. CON, DEX & INT for example; those stats will each give you some bonus threat generation when you're in Tank Role (formerly called Protector Role). If you're in Melee DPS Role those will all have threat decrease effects instead. Make sense?
PRE now affects bonus healing, hold strength, and one other "sentinel-ish" thing I'm not remembering offhand. They made PRE much more healer-centric. You can still get your bonus healing as a tank through your gear (which is what I do in fact).
Unless PRE is one of your superstats and you're in Tank Role, it's not going to give you bonus threat like it did in the past. That's what I'm objecting to and trying to update you on.
The big emphasis is on Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes. The descriptions are unclear and misleading on this on the advantages though... *sigh* They need to fix that
Colonelmarik should just queue Gravitar.
I'm sure he will start to cry "Healer and Tank are OP nerf them!". xD
I've posted a legitimate concern. I've discussed it in a rational, respectful manner. I would appreciate it if others would show me the same respect I've shown.
Please do not put words in my mouth, especially if you don't understand what I actually DID say.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
And you are welcome to do so, all I ask is you do so respectfully.
This is a posting forum. People are prone to write what they feel on a topic regardless of what was actually written. Asking for a DPS nerf isn't going to be popular no matter how reasonably explained. When you "man up" and post on a hot button topic keep that in mind and be ready for the burn or keep quiet. It is what it is. The internet.
I've posted a legitimate concern. I've discussed it in a rational, respectful manner. I would appreciate it if others would show me the same respect I've shown.
Please do not put words in my mouth, especially if you don't understand what I actually DID say.
I think it should be pretty clear based on the feedback that your perception that there's "too much dps" is not what the general community sees. I myself think there needs to be a better sense of balance between powers, but I've already pointed out why the 3 maintains you initially complained about do what they do. It's kinda nice to hear someone complain about lead tempest's damage considering it was one of the worst performing powers till it finally got a buff.
Considering everything in the game ends up feeling like a bag of hitpoints of varying levels, I always preferred mowing lots of weaker guys versus endlessly beating on one target. If you had focused on something like the varying levels of players in alerts, and how forcing everyone to 30 doesn't really put everyone on an even playing field - then you might see more folks in agreement.
DPS sacrifices survivability/defense for even more efficient damage. Being upset that someone else put the time and effort to specifically be more efficient sounds like an entitlement issue. Why do you feel "entitled" do dealing the same damage as someone who's focused specifically on that role?
Of all the things to complain about in regards to alerts - believing that there's too much damage begs the question how often do you even play?
Afks, leechers, horribly bad players, being forced to level 30... those are things people have complained about and with good reason. These negatively impact the player experience on a general level.
I bet for everyone one alert you felt there was too much dps, I've done at least 10 where there wasn't enough - if there are instances that fail from a sheer lack of damage - then logic would dictate that there isn't too much if there can be too little.
I've posted a legitimate concern. I've discussed it in a rational, respectful manner. I would appreciate it if others would show me the same respect I've shown.
Please do not put words in my mouth, especially if you don't understand what I actually DID say.
There is nothing legimate about your concern. You want some damage nerfs because you apparently are doing horrible with your own build.
Of course not every build can dish out the same damage. Radiants, Telepaths and Glacier builds naturally don't do the same damage as Infernals, Elec, dual and ego bladers.
That your damage output is horrid that does not seem a legimate reason for nerfing everyone, because not every class in any MMO are the same as well.
If you want to play a perfect "balanced" game then you should play something like chess or checkers, because every player has the same thing as your opponent has.
I've posted a legitimate concern. I've discussed it in a rational, respectful manner. I would appreciate it if others would show me the same respect I've shown.
Please do not put words in my mouth, especially if you don't understand what I actually DID say.
maybe you should go look at other forums, you have been disagreed with respectfully. we just don't respect this opinion.
I come from City of Heroes, where tanks are historically expected to do exactly what you're doing: attracting aggro, and once you've done that, a blaster comes along and nukes them. Any mobs the tank defeats are just gravy.
Since this game is essentially CoH v. 2, it sounds like it's working as intended.
The designers have made some basic changes to CO to avoid some of the pitfalls CoH had (overpowered controllers and so on), but the games obviously share some aspects.
The fact that we have separate tank roles and ranged damage roles indicates that the devs expect and encourage this kind of optimization. Your character is likely much more able to take massive amounts of damage than the AoE ranged damage build you're complaining about. That's the whole point of being able to select different roles.
The problem here is not that ranged melee builds are overpowered, it's that you don't feel special. Hamstringing the rest of the team so that you can feel special is not a call for balance, it's a call for mediocrity.
You've selected a character type that has the tank role. If you don't feel special enough in that role, create another character that does make you feel special. We all have the same opportunities to create multiple characters to fill the different roles.
Just because your role as tank happens to feel redundant on that particular alert doesn't mean that your tank is worthless. It's just not as critical on that alert. There are many situations in the game where your tank will shine.
Bottom line: if alerts frustrate you, don't do them. Do content that you find more entertaining.
So did they fix the problems with holding aggro or was the OP one of the few people that built their tanks to grab it and hold it?
[QUOTE=sakuratamaki;2692251There is nothing legimate about your concern. You want some damage nerfs because you apparently are doing horrible with your own build.
[...]
That your damage output is horrid that does not seem a legimate reason for nerfing everyone, because not every class in any MMO are the same as well. If you want to play a perfect "balanced" game then you should play something like chess or checkers, because every player has the same thing as your opponent has.[/QUOTE]
This is true as long as everybody has the same access to powers.
Roomsweeper on a Behemoth is the same thing as Roomsweeper on a Freeform. And freeform player A has just as much access to powers to choose from as freeform player B.
Where things have recently gone to **** with pay-to-win crap is with vehicles, which have powers that you CANNOT get in the Powerhouse! Period.
Now THAT is a legit concern, and affects the whole community. But what Colonelmarik is posting about in this topic? Not so much.
In fact the more I read, the more I realize his experience level and knowledge of the game mechanics is in no way expert enough to be making sweeping generalizations about their being too much DPS. Hell he didn't even know the name of Lead Tempest, that it had been buffed only recently, or how to read the combat log. I mean WTF?
The simplest solution is for him to not play Alerts, learn to play at his own pace and enjoy a little of the lore of the game.
I think SekSEGAI pointed out several good reason in his post above, you should read it, ColonelMarik.
PS: You've been respected quite a bit here. If you think the heat you're taking is too much, then perhaps you should leave the kitchen (or use a less flammable fuel next time, starting with your topic's title)
My threat management, is
1, make damn sure the tank is attacking them(hopefully also a melee)
2. make sure I'm at max range
3. hit self heal before attacking
4. block straight after so not continuing to collect aggro
standing near a wall is also useful, since if I then duck behind it, I break LOS on them and they seem to lose some aggro
As someone whos played against cosmics and long health bosses well over 800 times and played tonnes of multiplayer, heres my 2 cents and what should be done in my opinion:
TANK Players cant keep threat with such powerful DPS Players these days (tanks of course are still very appreciated!)
+75% Threat Gen across the board
Even since launch we have been able to breeze through content and use a single power to 1-shot entire mobs, such has always been the case that normal enemies are absolutely pointless except for Vibora Bay mobs that drop costume pieces. The only threatening (non-boss) mob in the game to someone who knows how to play is a Viper 'Brickbuster'.
To actually make things an actual battle, i do believe players powers do NOT need to be nerfed but, enemies need simply more health: 100% Enemy HP Normal mode +1000% Enemy HP Very Hard mode +3000% Enemy HP Elite mode
didnt mention Difficult or Hard because those difficulties are, and always have been pointless, and never used.
A single person who knows how to play decent can survive a LOT of beating, as well as heal themselves very good, AND accomplish over 4k DPS, able to solo Elite 5 man content (which isnt that hard these days to do...unfortunately)
So for example in Elite mode, a normal 1000 HP mob would have 30,000 Hp (taking 1 person 7.5 seconds of 4k dps to kill) and a 15,000 HP Mastervillain would have 450,000 HP (should take a full team approx 40 seconds). Maybe then the team would have something that doesnt just die near enough instantly, AND the enemy might actually be alive long enough to become theatening to players!
THIS would make the fight more interesting. Teams would actually enjoy a battle and maybe have to strategise more, not a steam-roll which is all we do these days is steam-roll the content and never feel like replaying it, because its not fun or challenging.
More HP means more time an enemy has to attack you, so rather someone blazing 5 man content on their own, 5 people would actually be a wiser choice, which means people would be teaming up and running content as it was made to be done, not on your own!
i WANT to team up with my friends! but they and i both know and ask the same thing....why currently, should i bring a second person? they arent needed because of the easy difficulty which me personally, blame on lack of enemy HP.
Solo, i (and a lot of you!) can kill Vikorin in about 3 Minutes (and i bet you could do it faster than that)
isnt he supposed to need a full team? cmon!
Stop joking around with players and give them a challenge.
lol usually in Alerts, I'm tank and DPS :biggrin:
The only way I'm getting aggro is by pure dps. lol
I think the threat generation for tanks needs to be buffed.
Bam! problem solved.
Tanks shouldn't complain unless they're packing Crippling Challenge and Challenging strikes. If they're not packing that, there's a problem.
There is nothing legimate about your concern. You want some damage nerfs because you apparently are doing horrible with your own build.
Of course not every build can dish out the same damage. Radiants, Telepaths and Glacier builds naturally don't do the same damage as Infernals, Elec, dual and ego bladers.
That your damage output is horrid that does not seem a legimate reason for nerfing everyone, because not every class in any MMO are the same as well.
If you want to play a perfect "balanced" game then you should play something like chess or checkers, because every player has the same thing as your opponent has.
My build has nothing to do with it at all. Then enemies are all defeated before my build is able to do anything. I have flight, many of these others have super speed. They reach the spawn even two seconds before I do, and there's nothing left for me to fight. That wouldn't change even if I had a PERFECT build.
The issue isn't that I can't do as much damage as these builds with the powers I've mentioned. It's that I don't get a chance to do ANYTHING. If a single player can render the entire rest of the team irrelevant, there's a problem. You can rationalize however you like, that's not balanced.
I don't know if you are familiar with the original Champions pen & paper game, so here's a brief description of how balance was maintained there.
Powers were built with points. Different powers cost different amounts per increment. For example, 1d6 (six sided die) of Energy Blast damage cost 5 points. If I wanted 10d6, that would cost 50 points.
You could add advantages to powers, things like Armour Piercing or Area Effect. Different advantages had different values that modified the cost of the powers. For instance, Area Effect was a +1 advantage, Armour Piercing was +1/2. The base cost of the power was multiplied by the advantages to find the "Active" cost.
For instance, 1d6 of armour piercing energy blast would cost the base, times 1.5 (one plus the advantage modifier), or 5x1.5=7.5 per die.
Most campaigns limited the Active costs of any power, typically to 60 points. Thus, I could have a 12d6 energy blast costing 60 points or an 8d6 armour piercing energy blast costing 60 points.
The idea here is that both powers are equivalent in performance because their active cost is the same.
What I see in the case of powers like Epidemic is a 12d6 blast that's been given advantages without reducing the base damage to compensate. Its active cost has been doubled beyond the active cost of other powers.
Either way, the problem is that the power is overperforming. YES, a dps character should do more damage than the tanks or hybrids. That's fine. They should NOT do so much damage that the tanks and hybrids (or other dps characters) are rendered unable to participate.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
So then your wish is to make Cryptic fix Flight much more faster then Super Speed, Want to deal damage like DPS but still keep your build viable as Hybrid or Tank without taking any squishy risk,
Ah, you are very greedy.
If you have flight, why won't you help your team by taking Melee's aggro?
Don't think you can do everything in one build. Each type of role/build has merits and demerits.
My build has nothing to do with it at all. Then enemies are all defeated before my build is able to do anything. I have flight, many of these others have super speed. They reach the spawn even two seconds before I do, and there's nothing left for me to fight.
First it was a matter of the bad guys being defeated while you are charging your attack, now you never even got to the fight before it was over.
In response to this specific point I would like to point out that even your build would be able to defeat the bad guys before the other players can throw an attack if they take their time getting to the fight.
That wouldn't change even if I had a PERFECT build.
The issue isn't that I can't do as much damage as these builds with the powers I've mentioned. It's that I don't get a chance to do ANYTHING. If a single player can render the entire rest of the team irrelevant, there's a problem.
Any half way decent tank, perhaps even your character (whom you have described as being tough), renders every other character on the team irrelevant in a non timed mission. If victory is assured by your presence alone then everyone else is irrelevant. Should your character, or defensive builds in general, be nerfed ?
You can rationalize however you like, that's not balanced.
Sure it is. Some things are very much better handled by one type of character compared to another. Then again that very same build might fail utterly at something else (something that a different type of build might find very doable).
I don't know if you are familiar with the original Champions pen & paper game, so here's a brief description of how balance was maintained there.
I too am a fan of the Champions PnP game. Ive been playing it for a little over 25 years now. The active point system has NEVER balanced the game. It makes a valiant attempt, and can be a somewhat useful tool in the GM's hands, but it does not, nor has it ever, balanced the game.
Powers were built with points. Different powers cost different amounts per increment. For example, 1d6 (six sided die) of Energy Blast damage cost 5 points. If I wanted 10d6, that would cost 50 points.
You could add advantages to powers, things like Armour Piercing or Area Effect. Different advantages had different values that modified the cost of the powers. For instance, Area Effect was a +1 advantage, Armour Piercing was +1/2. The base cost of the power was multiplied by the advantages to find the "Active" cost.
For instance, 1d6 of armour piercing energy blast would cost the base, times 1.5 (one plus the advantage modifier), or 5x1.5=7.5 per die.
Most campaigns limited the Active costs of any power, typically to 60 points. Thus, I could have a 12d6 energy blast costing 60 points or an 8d6 armour piercing energy blast costing 60 points.
The idea here is that both powers are equivalent in performance because their active cost is the same.
What I see in the case of powers like Epidemic is a 12d6 blast that's been given advantages without reducing the base damage to compensate. Its active cost has been doubled beyond the active cost of other powers.
Either way, the problem is that the power is overperforming. YES, a dps character should do more damage than the tanks or hybrids. That's fine. They should NOT do so much damage that the tanks and hybrids (or other dps characters) are rendered unable to participate.
This thread started with you describing a situation where the Tank (you) was choosing to act in a fashion that prevented him from fully participating. Now they DPS is rendering the Tank, "unable to participate."
My build has nothing to do with it at all. Then enemies are all defeated before my build is able to do anything. I have flight, many of these others have super speed. They reach the spawn even two seconds before I do, and there's nothing left for me to fight. That wouldn't change even if I had a PERFECT build.
Either don't take flight, don't be a cheapskate and farm your own darkspeed or buy one if speed is your issue.
The issue isn't that I can't do as much damage as these builds with the powers I've mentioned. It's that I don't get a chance to do ANYTHING. If a single player can render the entire rest of the team irrelevant, there's a problem. You can rationalize however you like, that's not balanced.
I assume you are talking about alerts in which this happens. You could just play regular missions if your main complaint is that the people in your team during alerts are not balanced, because they never will be. I have seen completely useless teams that couldn't even handle the mobs around the boss and teams that could beat 2 minutes drills in less than 30 seconds.
Also i don't see the point that people are killing mobs too fast as an issue for complaining, because you could easily go for the boss.
Either way, the problem is that the power is overperforming. YES, a dps character should do more damage than the tanks or hybrids. That's fine. They should NOT do so much damage that the tanks and hybrids (or other dps characters) are rendered unable to participate.
So how many times have you seen one character completely taking out legendaries so fast on their own in alerts that you could not do anything?
I don't think anyone has 50k dps in your 2 second absence.
My build has nothing to do with it at all. Then enemies are all defeated before my build is able to do anything. I have flight, many of these others have super speed. ...
Either way, the problem is that the power is overperforming. YES, a dps character should do more damage than the tanks or hybrids. That's fine. They should NOT do so much damage that the tanks and hybrids (or other dps characters) are rendered unable to participate.
1. Superspeed isn't that popular - unless its darkspeed - usually its acrobatics.
2. Your travel power choices are part of your build - so if you're flight is too slow then yes its YOUR build having something to do with it.
3. You're complaining about epi overperforming when you are so slow you can't even get in the fight. Flight or not, if things are dead before you can contribute - that's you failing to perform. It takes 2-3 people running solid aoes to nullify slow folks like yourself. If your argument didn't depend so much on exaggeration and a very limited perspective, your opinion might hold some clout.
4. Really - you have to be extremely slow, uncoordinated or afk to not contribute in most alerts. So if you really feel the need to push that you can't contribute, you must fall under one of the above. Even my old pvp setup was able to contribute with her long winded fully charged FC.
My build has nothing to do with it at all. Then enemies are all defeated before my build is able to do anything. I have flight, many of these others have super speed. They reach the spawn even two seconds before I do, and there's nothing left for me to fight.
First it was a matter of the bad guys being defeated while you are charging your attack, now you never even got to the fight before it was over.
In response to this specific point I would like to point out that even your build would be able to defeat the bad guys before the other players can throw an attack if they take their time getting to the fight.
That wouldn't change even if I had a PERFECT build.
The issue isn't that I can't do as much damage as these builds with the powers I've mentioned. It's that I don't get a chance to do ANYTHING. If a single player can render the entire rest of the team irrelevant, there's a problem.
Any half way decent tank, perhaps even your character (whom you have described as being tough), renders every other character on the team irrelevant in a non timed mission. If victory is assured by your presence alone then everyone else is irrelevant. Should your character, or defensive builds in general, be nerfed ?
You can rationalize however you like, that's not balanced.
Sure it is. Some things are very much better handled by one type of character compared to another. Then again that very same build might fail utterly at something else (something that a different type of build might find very doable).
I don't know if you are familiar with the original Champions pen & paper game, so here's a brief description of how balance was maintained there.
I too am a fan of the Champions PnP game. Ive been playing it for a little over 25 years now. The active point system has NEVER balanced the game. It makes a valiant attempt, and can be a somewhat useful tool in the GM's hands, but it does not, nor has it ever, balanced the game.
Powers were built with points. Different powers cost different amounts per increment. For example, 1d6 (six sided die) of Energy Blast damage cost 5 points. If I wanted 10d6, that would cost 50 points.
You could add advantages to powers, things like Armour Piercing or Area Effect. Different advantages had different values that modified the cost of the powers. For instance, Area Effect was a +1 advantage, Armour Piercing was +1/2. The base cost of the power was multiplied by the advantages to find the "Active" cost.
For instance, 1d6 of armour piercing energy blast would cost the base, times 1.5 (one plus the advantage modifier), or 5x1.5=7.5 per die.
Most campaigns limited the Active costs of any power, typically to 60 points. Thus, I could have a 12d6 energy blast costing 60 points or an 8d6 armour piercing energy blast costing 60 points.
The idea here is that both powers are equivalent in performance because their active cost is the same.
What I see in the case of powers like Epidemic is a 12d6 blast that's been given advantages without reducing the base damage to compensate. Its active cost has been doubled beyond the active cost of other powers.
Either way, the problem is that the power is overperforming. YES, a dps character should do more damage than the tanks or hybrids. That's fine. They should NOT do so much damage that the tanks and hybrids (or other dps characters) are rendered unable to participate.
This thread started with you describing a situation where the Tank (you) was choosing to act in a fashion that prevented him from fully participating. Now they DPS is rendering the Tank, "unable to participate.".
I was not referring to one single event. I was referring to a pattern of events over a lengthy period. The comment you are focusing on was in response to someone else. The point remains the same. Certain powers do far too much damage, far too rapidly. That this is so diminishes the ability of other players to participate.
A godly tank can make the content of the alert trivial - for HIM. His presence doesn't limit the other players in any way. They can still act and fight the enemy - probably more freely, in fact, as he would likely have their attention.
You're right, some builds will excel at some things that other builds won't. That wasn't the point, though. However you slice it, the purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun. If most of a team is being rendered unable to do anything, they're not having much fun.
The point I'm making with regard to PnP Champions is that active points limited the powers to a certain effectiveness. Here, there's no such limit. It's like giving one player on a team 100 active points but still limiting everyone else to 60.
The thread began with one player capable of leaving the rest of the team, including my character (who isn't actually a tank, in all honesty, he's a hybrid) unable to do much of anything. That hasn't changed. It's always been because these powers, specced for DPS, are doing too much damage, too fast. It's out of balance.
Now, it may not need much. Perhaps root the character when he uses it. Perhaps add a cooldown of a few seconds. Increase the endurance cost a little, or reduce the maximum number of stacks of extra toxic damage. Any of these might be enough to bring it in line with the contet, and with other powers.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Either don't take flight, don't be a cheapskate and farm your own darkspeed or buy one if speed is your issue.
I assume you are talking about alerts in which this happens. You could just play regular missions if your main complaint is that the people in your team during alerts are not balanced, because they never will be. I have seen completely useless teams that couldn't even handle the mobs around the boss and teams that could beat 2 minutes drills in less than 30 seconds.
Also i don't see the point that people are killing mobs too fast as an issue for complaining, because you could easily go for the boss.
So how many times have you seen one character completely taking out legendaries so fast on their own in alerts that you could not do anything?
I don't think anyone has 50k dps in your 2 second absence.
So, you're suggestion is to use only specific powers. Doesn't that suggest to you that there's a problem, when one power can render all other powers worthless?
I usually DO go for the boss. That's why I tend to try to charge up attacks, because those characters are tougher in general. It makes little difference when I do, because they're dead in seconds as well. Only the legendary bosses at the end last long enough to fight with.
Are you suggesting I should just stand by the door to city hall or the museum until the epidemic guy kills everything, that I'm to be restricted to only the final boss? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Are you suggesting I should just stand by the door to city hall or the museum until the epidemic guy kills everything, that I'm to be restricted to only the final boss? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
I'm little surprised many ppl still doing Grabs. o.O
I won't even Queue for it now. Grabs are just waste of time for me.
Well, there are answer. Don't Queue if you can't have fun.
Each of all Alerts, missions has its own concept. Some need someone taking Aggro, some need DPS for limited time, some must need Healer.
I only do Smash but not for train-Stopping and AO-Q thing, Gravitar, some specials and those are all for me in Alerts.
I don't do Grabs and Burst cause my build isn't fix to do them. Grabs and Burst are both just waste of time and not fun for me personally.
Why you do so everything in Alerts but don't enjoy missions?
So, you're suggestion is to use only specific powers. Doesn't that suggest to you that there's a problem, when one power can render all other powers worthless?
Darkspeed is a device ^_~
Seriously though, you can have 2 traveling powers at lvl 35. Unless acrobatics/athletics/superspeed/teleport or any of those variations are breaking your concept, i don't see a problem with you being too slow.
I usually DO go for the boss. That's why I tend to try to charge up attacks, because those characters are tougher in general. It makes little difference when I do, because they're dead in seconds as well. Only the legendary bosses at the end last long enough to fight with.
Are you suggesting I should just stand by the door to city hall or the museum until the epidemic guy kills everything, that I'm to be restricted to only the final boss? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
Also you have been instantly ignoring my previous post
I assume you are talking about alerts in which this happens. You could just play regular missions if your main complaint is that the people in your team during alerts are not balanced, because they never will be.
So i am repeating monaahiru: if you don't like to play certain alerts, then do regular missions.
Also most of my characters don't do certain alerts seeing that their build does not work at all, like i tend to avoid fighting gravitar with my squishies. Also any of my characters that does not have any powers with trauma or skarns bane is also avoiding Ao Quepoth, or whatever he was called.
To actually make things an actual battle, i do believe players powers do NOT need to be nerfed but, enemies need simply more health:
A single person who knows how to play decent can survive a LOT of beating, as well as heal themselves very good, AND accomplish over 4k DPS, able to solo Elite 5 man content (which isnt that hard these days to do...unfortunately)
Stop joking around with players and give them a challenge.
There are two enemies in CO that intimidate me, scare me off, or even affect my gameplay/build one bit.
That one Pyrespammer giant in nemcon, and Gravitar.
For the giant pyrespammer, he has both 10k health and does about 3k PBAoE DPS. My toon being regen based, he gets pretty melted.
For Gravitar, everyone but supertanks can survive against her, and she's the only real, actual threat to toons. Even fully geared, specced toons.
The point being that both of these enemies share something: Average health, and they're damage-heavy. With bosses like your normal cosmics, the Mega-Destroyer for example, it is waaay too easy to get a few defensive powers, and go completely squishy, and never take any damage. This is because Mega-Destroyer had 1.2M health, but does next to nothing in the way of damage. This is a very boring fight. While I do not disagree that mobs need a *little* more health, they also need substantial damage too, 300% in elite, for example.
Now back on topic.
Yes. That's correct OP, some powers do more damage than others. As a Might toon, it's not your job to uppercut mobs. It's your job to attack bosses and be a meat shield for Infernal squishies. That's how tanks work. That's how squishies work.
~~~The Tidal Tilde Wave of Seperation~~~
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
Certain powers do far too much damage, far too rapidly. That this is so diminishes the ability of other players to participate.
There is too much focus on *powers*. It's more involved than that...these are full on builds and players which include synergies, stats, equipment, timing, etc. Much of it gained over long periods of time.
When you stop limiting the discussion to power choices and think about the *players* then yes one player who has been playing for years should be able to dish out a lot more damage than those who have not. If we all had the same level of effectiveness regardless of effort then *that* would not be balanced.
The issue is not that there is a large difference in ability. The issue is that players with such large differences are grouped together.
You're right, some builds will excel at some things that other builds won't. That wasn't the point, though. However you slice it, the purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun. If most of a team is being rendered unable to do anything, they're not having much fun.
Then they should not play together. The concern of some players not getting to participate is certainly legitimate. But the solution of lowering damage output is misinformed - because that's not the issue.
When discussing balance, if you stop limiting your thinking to powers this and powers that and start to think about *players* then you will see that there will always be players who do "too much damage" if everyone is lumped together into one big pot.
The solution is to segment the playerbase by ability and provide content with appropriate challenges and rewards to each group.
The thread began with one player capable of leaving the rest of the team, including my character (who isn't actually a tank, in all honesty, he's a hybrid) unable to do much of anything. That hasn't changed. It's always been because these powers, specced for DPS, are doing too much damage, too fast. It's out of balance.
Now, it may not need much. Perhaps root the character when he uses it. Perhaps add a cooldown of a few seconds. Increase the endurance cost a little, or reduce the maximum number of stacks of extra toxic damage. Any of these might be enough to bring it in line with the contet, and with other powers.
It's not because of the powers. Go ahead and change them...nerf them...add roots...whatever. All of that has already been done many times.
Your issue of some players doing far more damage has and will remain the same. Because the problem is not with the powers...it's with how players and content are grouped.
However you slice it, the purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun. If most of a team is being rendered unable to do anything, they're not having much fun.
While I agree with the first sentence, I'm not sure there is a lot of evidence to support the second one. If most of the team is not having fun, where are they complaining? You have not garnered a lot of support in this thread. And people DO complain. kaizerin may agree there is too much dps, but he is not doing so because he cannot get an attack in in an alert.
Look, I get that you are unhappy with the state of some things in the game, including the topic of this thread. There is not a poster in this thread who has never had an aspect of this game they were unhappy with. Cryptic's fixes of such issues are slow to nonexistent. We have all had to learn to work around various issues. The posters in this thread have offered suggestions to you on how to do so with this issue. You've said your piece, and Cryptic has either heard you or not. Even if all the other posters had agreed with you, I would not hold my breath waiting for a "fix."
In fact, Cryptic seems to be buffing, not nerfing powers. Lead Tempest made your list because it was buffed recently. It may be part of a plan to make the game overall harder, but they feel they need to bring weaker powers up to the standards of the stronger ones first. Time (maybe a long time) will tell on that one.
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I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Comments
In my opinion you are wrong.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
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If I take a concept (and they're all concept with me) build in to a mission then it is inevitable that someone with maybe a PVE and PVP optimised build is possibly tho not certainly gonna out do me on the damage front. I have gazed in awe as a chum of mine explained to me and demonstrated how to kill a mega destroid mob in Resistance whilst I was just busy being dead. Did the same thing with Entering Andrithal too! I did my best but my build/play was not as good as... I've taken a healer into a Grav alert only to find there was already an excellent healer present. Luckily it does DPS as well so I could contribute by laying down Skarns Bane for the debuff (it worked at that time). I have been depressed by my beastial builds poor mobslaying in comparison to electric and sword cyclone builds.
Someone with better attacks and better set up is going to perform better perhaps even to the point of leaving you in the dust. Never mind the powers if only I could nerf the other players to be as useless as I have sometimes felt Lolz. Sigh brains are soooo OP'd.
Gotta say I'd be very interested in what you're using if Lead Tempest seems OP'd to you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
in this game when you use freeform your build is always relevant.
there is a synergy in powersets. if you take that away the game becomes just like every other game. i would stop playing and many others would as well. one game can not please everyone, a game becomes irrelevant when it tries.
if everything works out of the box easy to understand it becomes boring. the game is fun because of the problem solving in builds. yes we have our boring FotM players, but we have people that always try to push for better. you take the reward away from that, and they stop playing. there are plenty of games out there that dont reward clever and creative planning, if you dont like it here, you might like it there. but if you listen and learn what isnt clearly stated you will find you love it here. i love this game and though it pisses me off sometimes i dont want to leave.
players have offered to help, i would help you if you asked, but dont think your going to understand everything about this game in a few months, i hang with alot of long time players and power builders, i learn new things everyday. the more you listen and try to understand the more you will enjoy
typed on an Ipad ignore the reply title lol
Probably he never did DPS build by himself and he's just dreaming too much about DPS.
Or may be he's talking about different game not CO.:biggrin:
Complaining about the 3 highest damage maintain AOES - Sword Cyclone, Epidemic, and (NOW possible) lead tempest is kinda silly.
They're high damage because they're fast maintains which allow multiple chances for criticals. However, the OP over-exaggerates their effectiveness, and it's pretty clear the OP has little understanding of the game mechanics when you call something "the flippy thing".
I get that the OP feels underutilized in certain alerts. But that's just one perspective. How does it feel for the dps class to have to carry alerts - when I was active I rarely had the luxury of being carried - I usually had to pull double duty as tank and dps. The OP fails to consider how I feel when tanks (when they're actually around) fail to generate threat or AT healers attack when teammates need healing.
Balance has been an longstanding issue in CO - but expecting maintains to compete with charge ups is overreaching.
I'm not sure I ever thanked you for "tanking" in the couple of Alerts we had in common. Not having to do it on my (apparently not as damaging) DPS character was a refreshing change.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Though you probably wouldn't since directly after firing both, I have instant aggro and nearly instant death too.
Lead tempest also has a rather odd accuracy range.
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
Don't forget Avalanche and Unleashed Rage. Those are good AoE DPS too.
This nearly means "every DPS is OP! Nerf them!". xD
OR it could mean that tanks need more tanking help/tank better like being able to grab agro alot quicker and harder than high DPS builds and healers, thus allowing them to do their job properly.
Tanks need a threat gen buff I think or something innate to the role which makes all of their powers generate some level of threat.
My Characters on PRIMUS
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Or the ability to grab agro is completely messed up.
you nerf that and pugs will be even more ineffectual
Psot nerf new thread, "Too many clueless builders in Alerts!"
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
i imagine forum users are 5% or less of the userbase
So how does Cryptic balance PvE where I'm too strong, 90% of the players are too stupid and mobs are too weak? Vehicles... awesome.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
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Is there power creep in the game? With the initial release of On Alert, one-hit-kill bosses like Gravitar, and some of the things a fully ranked up vehicle can do? Yes. Everything else? Meh not so much... Don't forget, Elite lost it's value with on Alert (well except for Therakiel thankfully because of the costume unlock drop chance)
I can sort of see that, but asking ti nerf specific powers because a glass canon is doing what a glass canon does best... that's illogical. Kaieserin & Colonelmarik, no, just no.
Play the game a Grimoire, Mind, Behemoth, Inferno, or Glacier and you'll see a different perspective entirely, that Alert enemies are too hard even. (see Jasinblaze's point)
Also remember that a poorly designed Freeform is actually weaker than an Archetype!
Yes indeed. There's a suggestion to fix that btw, something the developers are aware of and expressed interest in, but sure are taking their good sweet time to get around to implementing it... Lockboxes and vehicles keep taking precedence.
Well said.
Smash alerts... They keep causing so many problems in the game... *sigh*
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
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And yes, I consider Alerts level 6 content because they allow level 6 characters and there has been no indication of an intent to introduce level gating.
If you are more considerate, then think about how you can dump threat (Evasive Maneuver's adv) or reduce it via Pre. [correction: it's your SS, not Pre]
Threat is overlooked because the game is not hard enough for it to matter for the people who know how to manage it. Increased difficulty will surface the importance of mechanics that are outside of DPS and defense, such as threat.
We need more difficult content. Not crappier powers.
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Yes & No.
Yes, it should be common sense if you're a glass canon laying down the damage, you should expect catching hell from return fire if you cannot put the foe down fast. It's "kill them before they kill you" and "choose your battles carefully" if you're a glass canon DPS build. This is common sense.
No, it's more complicated than that. Post-OnAlert tanking is SIGNIFICANTLY harder to hold threat if you're not DPS-ish yourself. This really hits Behemoth (or any might), Savage, or even Heavy Weapon tanks pretty hard. (see my signature's links)
Alerts, Smash Alerts in particular, discourge being considerate to the team. They teach players how to behave selfishly.
WRONG!
Look, I know you've been gone awhile but please abstain from posting misinformation until you catch back up to speed. It doesn't work that way now.
The PRE stat doesn't affect threat anymore. Threat only comes from your role, and power & advantages that increase or drop threat.
And the powers that drop threat only do so temporarily, not permanently like they used to (next combat attack you make usually restores it, you can blame smoke grenade spammers and the people who complained about it for that nerf).
Yes, but NOT more difficult with the way Cryptic has been cutting corners while you've been gone.
Bad things they've tried: exponentially more HP and defense, one-hit-kill-through-the-block attacks (i.e.: Gravitar and Level 60 Mega D's), broken scaling (Ao'Qephoth and Level 60 Mega D's), cheap glitches that are annoying rather than fun (i.e.: Rakshasa), etc
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
This shouldn't be surprising since quite a lot of super hero content, if not darn near all of it, is power fantasies.
I understand your desire to have a cool costume editor, fun travel powers AND challenging content all in one game, but that's just not what CO is about.
After this many years, it is clear that they are not going to budge on their design philosophy as far as difficulty is concerned.
CO is a power fantasy. You are powerless to change this.
lol the enter key.
Go solo with a weak build if you want challenge.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I've been playing the game two months now, and I'd say easily 95% of the time on alerts Foxfire will wind up with boss aggro just on Two-Gun Mojo alone. Building for DPS is easy-peasy, even if you build for basic defense.
Building a proper Shazam! homage, on the other hand...
Okay...Vixy was not discussing what Alerts teach players. It just seems to be a common thing to blame loss of aggro on the tank, without consideration of other options. That's all that Vixy is pointing out.
Your Role changes the *type of effect* on threat. But it does not *scale* the effect. Specifically for DPS roles such as Ranged and Melee Dmg...it casues the reduction of threat generation.
SS scales the effect on threat (thanks Xeiros)...it's not just the role. Maybe the tooltips are broken and are reporting outdated info? Certainly possible, in which case Vixy concedes.
Vixy has Evasive's adv - this will be easy to test. The point still stands - DPS builds have ways to help manage threat...if they choose to do nothing then they deserve what's coming.
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It's one thing if it was just sheer damage - I learned to "hold back" for the sake of aggro management in Wow and CoH.
But as I do play both Tanks and DPS pretty heavily, a lot of it falls on the tank. Don't get me wrong, People like you and me are far more familiar with the working mechanics, but a random casual player is not going to understand the value of threat gen or importance of CC/CS. There are times where DPS can gen more threat than my tanks - but those are pretty extreme cases and that's when aggro management actually becomes a factor for the dps in question.
I don't think there's too much dps - I think the problem lies in balancing the mechanics of it all, especially base damage. Maintains are optimal because they are typically hitting twice a second and each have an equal chance of critting based on crit rate. Charge ups like FC are long winded and when they don't crit that's a lotta effort for lackluster damage.
The original imbue helped even things out a bit allowing users a guaranteed crit on their charges or long cd powers like unleashed rage. Now that that's gone, for the sake of performance, only a very select number of powers are viable for damage, especially as far as the AoEs go.
If you have a speedy guy in an alert with you killing all the minions thats good concentrate on the big target let the zoom zoom epic guy nuke the weaklings.
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They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I'm sure he will start to cry "Healer and Tank are OP nerf them!". xD
lol! The way you worded this made me giggle, and yes this is good advice.
Yes I see that, and I'll agree with you there.
As per Cryptic's own patch notes for the Kitchen Sink 3.0 "On Alert" patch they said that threat modifiers were only to come from role (and the superstats you have in that role), specializations (i.e. Bulwark in Hybrid role), and your superpowers' advantages (absolve, sleight of mind, crippling challenge, challenging strikes).
So to clarify, if you're in tank role it doesn't matter what superstats you choose. CON, DEX & INT for example; those stats will each give you some bonus threat generation when you're in Tank Role (formerly called Protector Role). If you're in Melee DPS Role those will all have threat decrease effects instead. Make sense?
PRE now affects bonus healing, hold strength, and one other "sentinel-ish" thing I'm not remembering offhand. They made PRE much more healer-centric. You can still get your bonus healing as a tank through your gear (which is what I do in fact).
Unless PRE is one of your superstats and you're in Tank Role, it's not going to give you bonus threat like it did in the past. That's what I'm objecting to and trying to update you on.
The big emphasis is on Crippling Challenge and Challenging Strikes. The descriptions are unclear and misleading on this on the advantages though... *sigh* They need to fix that
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
I've posted a legitimate concern. I've discussed it in a rational, respectful manner. I would appreciate it if others would show me the same respect I've shown.
Please do not put words in my mouth, especially if you don't understand what I actually DID say.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
/disagree
/ten
And you are welcome to do so, all I ask is you do so respectfully.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
This is a posting forum. People are prone to write what they feel on a topic regardless of what was actually written. Asking for a DPS nerf isn't going to be popular no matter how reasonably explained. When you "man up" and post on a hot button topic keep that in mind and be ready for the burn or keep quiet. It is what it is. The internet.
Maybe we are doing different game.
Let's talk about Champions Online here. xD
Or, you want to fill up the world with all Healers or something?
If your game title was Champions Online, then wut kind of build are you using BTW?
I think it should be pretty clear based on the feedback that your perception that there's "too much dps" is not what the general community sees. I myself think there needs to be a better sense of balance between powers, but I've already pointed out why the 3 maintains you initially complained about do what they do. It's kinda nice to hear someone complain about lead tempest's damage considering it was one of the worst performing powers till it finally got a buff.
Considering everything in the game ends up feeling like a bag of hitpoints of varying levels, I always preferred mowing lots of weaker guys versus endlessly beating on one target. If you had focused on something like the varying levels of players in alerts, and how forcing everyone to 30 doesn't really put everyone on an even playing field - then you might see more folks in agreement.
DPS sacrifices survivability/defense for even more efficient damage. Being upset that someone else put the time and effort to specifically be more efficient sounds like an entitlement issue. Why do you feel "entitled" do dealing the same damage as someone who's focused specifically on that role?
Of all the things to complain about in regards to alerts - believing that there's too much damage begs the question how often do you even play?
Afks, leechers, horribly bad players, being forced to level 30... those are things people have complained about and with good reason. These negatively impact the player experience on a general level.
I bet for everyone one alert you felt there was too much dps, I've done at least 10 where there wasn't enough - if there are instances that fail from a sheer lack of damage - then logic would dictate that there isn't too much if there can be too little.
There is nothing legimate about your concern. You want some damage nerfs because you apparently are doing horrible with your own build.
Of course not every build can dish out the same damage. Radiants, Telepaths and Glacier builds naturally don't do the same damage as Infernals, Elec, dual and ego bladers.
That your damage output is horrid that does not seem a legimate reason for nerfing everyone, because not every class in any MMO are the same as well.
If you want to play a perfect "balanced" game then you should play something like chess or checkers, because every player has the same thing as your opponent has.
So did they fix the problems with holding aggro or was the OP one of the few people that built their tanks to grab it and hold it?
[...]
That your damage output is horrid that does not seem a legimate reason for nerfing everyone, because not every class in any MMO are the same as well. If you want to play a perfect "balanced" game then you should play something like chess or checkers, because every player has the same thing as your opponent has.[/QUOTE]
This is true as long as everybody has the same access to powers.
Roomsweeper on a Behemoth is the same thing as Roomsweeper on a Freeform. And freeform player A has just as much access to powers to choose from as freeform player B.
Where things have recently gone to **** with pay-to-win crap is with vehicles, which have powers that you CANNOT get in the Powerhouse! Period.
Now THAT is a legit concern, and affects the whole community. But what Colonelmarik is posting about in this topic? Not so much.
In fact the more I read, the more I realize his experience level and knowledge of the game mechanics is in no way expert enough to be making sweeping generalizations about their being too much DPS. Hell he didn't even know the name of Lead Tempest, that it had been buffed only recently, or how to read the combat log. I mean WTF?
The simplest solution is for him to not play Alerts, learn to play at his own pace and enjoy a little of the lore of the game.
I think SekSEGAI pointed out several good reason in his post above, you should read it, ColonelMarik.
PS: You've been respected quite a bit here. If you think the heat you're taking is too much, then perhaps you should leave the kitchen (or use a less flammable fuel next time, starting with your topic's title)
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
1, make damn sure the tank is attacking them(hopefully also a melee)
2. make sure I'm at max range
3. hit self heal before attacking
4. block straight after so not continuing to collect aggro
standing near a wall is also useful, since if I then duck behind it, I break LOS on them and they seem to lose some aggro
Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
TANK Players cant keep threat with such powerful DPS Players these days (tanks of course are still very appreciated!)
+75% Threat Gen across the board
Even since launch we have been able to breeze through content and use a single power to 1-shot entire mobs, such has always been the case that normal enemies are absolutely pointless except for Vibora Bay mobs that drop costume pieces. The only threatening (non-boss) mob in the game to someone who knows how to play is a Viper 'Brickbuster'.
To actually make things an actual battle, i do believe players powers do NOT need to be nerfed but, enemies need simply more health:
100% Enemy HP Normal mode
+1000% Enemy HP Very Hard mode
+3000% Enemy HP Elite mode
didnt mention Difficult or Hard because those difficulties are, and always have been pointless, and never used.
A single person who knows how to play decent can survive a LOT of beating, as well as heal themselves very good, AND accomplish over 4k DPS, able to solo Elite 5 man content (which isnt that hard these days to do...unfortunately)
So for example in Elite mode, a normal 1000 HP mob would have 30,000 Hp (taking 1 person 7.5 seconds of 4k dps to kill) and a 15,000 HP Mastervillain would have 450,000 HP (should take a full team approx 40 seconds). Maybe then the team would have something that doesnt just die near enough instantly, AND the enemy might actually be alive long enough to become theatening to players!
THIS would make the fight more interesting. Teams would actually enjoy a battle and maybe have to strategise more, not a steam-roll which is all we do these days is steam-roll the content and never feel like replaying it, because its not fun or challenging.
More HP means more time an enemy has to attack you, so rather someone blazing 5 man content on their own, 5 people would actually be a wiser choice, which means people would be teaming up and running content as it was made to be done, not on your own!
i WANT to team up with my friends! but they and i both know and ask the same thing....why currently, should i bring a second person? they arent needed because of the easy difficulty which me personally, blame on lack of enemy HP.
Solo, i (and a lot of you!) can kill Vikorin in about 3 Minutes (and i bet you could do it faster than that)
isnt he supposed to need a full team? cmon!
Stop joking around with players and give them a challenge.
The only way I'm getting aggro is by pure dps. lol
I think the threat generation for tanks needs to be buffed.
Bam! problem solved.
Tanks shouldn't complain unless they're packing Crippling Challenge and Challenging strikes. If they're not packing that, there's a problem.
@Scrizz :biggrin:
My build has nothing to do with it at all. Then enemies are all defeated before my build is able to do anything. I have flight, many of these others have super speed. They reach the spawn even two seconds before I do, and there's nothing left for me to fight. That wouldn't change even if I had a PERFECT build.
The issue isn't that I can't do as much damage as these builds with the powers I've mentioned. It's that I don't get a chance to do ANYTHING. If a single player can render the entire rest of the team irrelevant, there's a problem. You can rationalize however you like, that's not balanced.
I don't know if you are familiar with the original Champions pen & paper game, so here's a brief description of how balance was maintained there.
Powers were built with points. Different powers cost different amounts per increment. For example, 1d6 (six sided die) of Energy Blast damage cost 5 points. If I wanted 10d6, that would cost 50 points.
You could add advantages to powers, things like Armour Piercing or Area Effect. Different advantages had different values that modified the cost of the powers. For instance, Area Effect was a +1 advantage, Armour Piercing was +1/2. The base cost of the power was multiplied by the advantages to find the "Active" cost.
For instance, 1d6 of armour piercing energy blast would cost the base, times 1.5 (one plus the advantage modifier), or 5x1.5=7.5 per die.
Most campaigns limited the Active costs of any power, typically to 60 points. Thus, I could have a 12d6 energy blast costing 60 points or an 8d6 armour piercing energy blast costing 60 points.
The idea here is that both powers are equivalent in performance because their active cost is the same.
What I see in the case of powers like Epidemic is a 12d6 blast that's been given advantages without reducing the base damage to compensate. Its active cost has been doubled beyond the active cost of other powers.
Either way, the problem is that the power is overperforming. YES, a dps character should do more damage than the tanks or hybrids. That's fine. They should NOT do so much damage that the tanks and hybrids (or other dps characters) are rendered unable to participate.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Want to deal damage like DPS but still keep your build viable as Hybrid or Tank without taking any squishy risk,
Ah, you are very greedy.
If you have flight, why won't you help your team by taking Melee's aggro?
Don't think you can do everything in one build. Each type of role/build has merits and demerits.
L2P.
Responses above.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
I assume you are talking about alerts in which this happens. You could just play regular missions if your main complaint is that the people in your team during alerts are not balanced, because they never will be. I have seen completely useless teams that couldn't even handle the mobs around the boss and teams that could beat 2 minutes drills in less than 30 seconds.
Also i don't see the point that people are killing mobs too fast as an issue for complaining, because you could easily go for the boss.
So how many times have you seen one character completely taking out legendaries so fast on their own in alerts that you could not do anything?
I don't think anyone has 50k dps in your 2 second absence.
1. Superspeed isn't that popular - unless its darkspeed - usually its acrobatics.
2. Your travel power choices are part of your build - so if you're flight is too slow then yes its YOUR build having something to do with it.
3. You're complaining about epi overperforming when you are so slow you can't even get in the fight. Flight or not, if things are dead before you can contribute - that's you failing to perform. It takes 2-3 people running solid aoes to nullify slow folks like yourself. If your argument didn't depend so much on exaggeration and a very limited perspective, your opinion might hold some clout.
4. Really - you have to be extremely slow, uncoordinated or afk to not contribute in most alerts. So if you really feel the need to push that you can't contribute, you must fall under one of the above. Even my old pvp setup was able to contribute with her long winded fully charged FC.
I was not referring to one single event. I was referring to a pattern of events over a lengthy period. The comment you are focusing on was in response to someone else. The point remains the same. Certain powers do far too much damage, far too rapidly. That this is so diminishes the ability of other players to participate.
A godly tank can make the content of the alert trivial - for HIM. His presence doesn't limit the other players in any way. They can still act and fight the enemy - probably more freely, in fact, as he would likely have their attention.
You're right, some builds will excel at some things that other builds won't. That wasn't the point, though. However you slice it, the purpose of the game is for everyone to have fun. If most of a team is being rendered unable to do anything, they're not having much fun.
The point I'm making with regard to PnP Champions is that active points limited the powers to a certain effectiveness. Here, there's no such limit. It's like giving one player on a team 100 active points but still limiting everyone else to 60.
The thread began with one player capable of leaving the rest of the team, including my character (who isn't actually a tank, in all honesty, he's a hybrid) unable to do much of anything. That hasn't changed. It's always been because these powers, specced for DPS, are doing too much damage, too fast. It's out of balance.
Now, it may not need much. Perhaps root the character when he uses it. Perhaps add a cooldown of a few seconds. Increase the endurance cost a little, or reduce the maximum number of stacks of extra toxic damage. Any of these might be enough to bring it in line with the contet, and with other powers.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
So, you're suggestion is to use only specific powers. Doesn't that suggest to you that there's a problem, when one power can render all other powers worthless?
I usually DO go for the boss. That's why I tend to try to charge up attacks, because those characters are tougher in general. It makes little difference when I do, because they're dead in seconds as well. Only the legendary bosses at the end last long enough to fight with.
Are you suggesting I should just stand by the door to city hall or the museum until the epidemic guy kills everything, that I'm to be restricted to only the final boss? Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
I'm little surprised many ppl still doing Grabs. o.O
I won't even Queue for it now. Grabs are just waste of time for me.
Well, there are answer. Don't Queue if you can't have fun.
Each of all Alerts, missions has its own concept. Some need someone taking Aggro, some need DPS for limited time, some must need Healer.
I only do Smash but not for train-Stopping and AO-Q thing, Gravitar, some specials and those are all for me in Alerts.
I don't do Grabs and Burst cause my build isn't fix to do them.
Grabs and Burst are both just waste of time and not fun for me personally.
Why you do so everything in Alerts but don't enjoy missions?
Seriously though, you can have 2 traveling powers at lvl 35. Unless acrobatics/athletics/superspeed/teleport or any of those variations are breaking your concept, i don't see a problem with you being too slow.
Also you have been instantly ignoring my previous post So i am repeating monaahiru: if you don't like to play certain alerts, then do regular missions.
Also most of my characters don't do certain alerts seeing that their build does not work at all, like i tend to avoid fighting gravitar with my squishies. Also any of my characters that does not have any powers with trauma or skarns bane is also avoiding Ao Quepoth, or whatever he was called.
There are two enemies in CO that intimidate me, scare me off, or even affect my gameplay/build one bit.
That one Pyrespammer giant in nemcon, and Gravitar.
For the giant pyrespammer, he has both 10k health and does about 3k PBAoE DPS. My toon being regen based, he gets pretty melted.
For Gravitar, everyone but supertanks can survive against her, and she's the only real, actual threat to toons. Even fully geared, specced toons.
The point being that both of these enemies share something: Average health, and they're damage-heavy. With bosses like your normal cosmics, the Mega-Destroyer for example, it is waaay too easy to get a few defensive powers, and go completely squishy, and never take any damage. This is because Mega-Destroyer had 1.2M health, but does next to nothing in the way of damage. This is a very boring fight. While I do not disagree that mobs need a *little* more health, they also need substantial damage too, 300% in elite, for example.
Now back on topic.
Yes. That's correct OP, some powers do more damage than others. As a Might toon, it's not your job to uppercut mobs. It's your job to attack bosses and be a meat shield for Infernal squishies. That's how tanks work. That's how squishies work.
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
When you stop limiting the discussion to power choices and think about the *players* then yes one player who has been playing for years should be able to dish out a lot more damage than those who have not. If we all had the same level of effectiveness regardless of effort then *that* would not be balanced.
The issue is not that there is a large difference in ability. The issue is that players with such large differences are grouped together.
Then they should not play together. The concern of some players not getting to participate is certainly legitimate. But the solution of lowering damage output is misinformed - because that's not the issue.
When discussing balance, if you stop limiting your thinking to powers this and powers that and start to think about *players* then you will see that there will always be players who do "too much damage" if everyone is lumped together into one big pot.
The solution is to segment the playerbase by ability and provide content with appropriate challenges and rewards to each group.
It's not because of the powers. Go ahead and change them...nerf them...add roots...whatever. All of that has already been done many times.
Your issue of some players doing far more damage has and will remain the same. Because the problem is not with the powers...it's with how players and content are grouped.
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While I agree with the first sentence, I'm not sure there is a lot of evidence to support the second one. If most of the team is not having fun, where are they complaining? You have not garnered a lot of support in this thread. And people DO complain. kaizerin may agree there is too much dps, but he is not doing so because he cannot get an attack in in an alert.
Look, I get that you are unhappy with the state of some things in the game, including the topic of this thread. There is not a poster in this thread who has never had an aspect of this game they were unhappy with. Cryptic's fixes of such issues are slow to nonexistent. We have all had to learn to work around various issues. The posters in this thread have offered suggestions to you on how to do so with this issue. You've said your piece, and Cryptic has either heard you or not. Even if all the other posters had agreed with you, I would not hold my breath waiting for a "fix."
In fact, Cryptic seems to be buffing, not nerfing powers. Lead Tempest made your list because it was buffed recently. It may be part of a plan to make the game overall harder, but they feel they need to bring weaker powers up to the standards of the stronger ones first. Time (maybe a long time) will tell on that one.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008