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Too much DPS
colonelmarik
Posts: 185 Arc User
There seem to be an awful lot of ridiculously high damage powers and builds these days. I'm finding it's killing alerts for me, and I thought I'd draw attention to it.
I go into alerts and start charging an attack when someone spamming Epidemic or whatever the flippy shooty thing is, or perhaps the one with the whirling swords comes superspeeding in, and before I can finish charging the attack, the whole spawn is killed off. That person then superspeeds to the next spawn and kills it off before anyone else can get there. They essentially solo the things, leaving none of the other players with anything to do.
Now, maybe it's me, but that seems like pretty excessive DPS. Yes, they should be able to do significant damage, but when they can blast through spawns built to challenge whole teams in the space of a couple of seconds, it suggests a problem.
Is it just me, or is a series of nerfs needed?
(and yes, I hate bringing it up, but perhaps it's needed)
I go into alerts and start charging an attack when someone spamming Epidemic or whatever the flippy shooty thing is, or perhaps the one with the whirling swords comes superspeeding in, and before I can finish charging the attack, the whole spawn is killed off. That person then superspeeds to the next spawn and kills it off before anyone else can get there. They essentially solo the things, leaving none of the other players with anything to do.
Now, maybe it's me, but that seems like pretty excessive DPS. Yes, they should be able to do significant damage, but when they can blast through spawns built to challenge whole teams in the space of a couple of seconds, it suggests a problem.
Is it just me, or is a series of nerfs needed?
(and yes, I hate bringing it up, but perhaps it's needed)
Once, I was simply called Mojo. Now, I'm forced into a new name, but don't be fooled, I'm the original STO Mojo!
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Post edited by colonelmarik on
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Wut kind of Super-Epidemic can do that? I did like 10k runs and never seen such thing, except for all 5 Epidemic spammer in team. xD
If you are saying about 5 Buckups, grats its already over-nerfed and nobody using it.
If you are saying about Mobs, your self is doing wrong. Single target attack to henchmen helps team nothing when your team having any kind of AoE-DPS teammate. Please target Boss first and plz don't take care about mobs if you are only having Single-Target attack. (This means you are lowbie or specialized build only for Single target charged attack.) We have very limited time esp. in smash, all of team except you can't wait you having enjoy "Yeah I'm SUPER HERO, SUPER TANK!!".
I sometimes want to kill super Knock Backers in team before attacking Mobs and Villains.
I see some lowbies running to all mobs in recruiting drive like suicide, keeping attention all of them to whole entire team, It's no fun doing 100% fail run for most of ppl (I dn't know about masochistic players).
I just leave layer silently. Good luck.
Time is limited and this is all. If you want to enjoy fail run, plz premade your team for fail run.
Yes, let's cry a nerf. And hand everyone pillows, because the mobs in this game are weakassmofos, that's the problem. But then again, most of them aren't even super powered.
What is the archetype you're playing OP?
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Spider Man: Dammit Punisher, stop shooting all the guys, I wanna web em up!
Punisher: Um... no? I spent a lot of money on these guns and I'm gonna use em!
Spider Man: *writes angry letter to Swith and Wesson to change all their products into nerf guns*
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I'm pretty sure AoE maintains operating better than AoE charges is WAI. I much prefer having a chance to crit every tick on top of Tread Softly or Hurricane boosting my mitigation.
That being said, Condemn is still a damn pretty power and I'm glad I still have it for when I've got the drop on a close cluster of targets. I just don't plan on using it in alerts.
You posted something about reprehensible business practices, did you come to the realization that you can get everything but power tinting for free, so maybe there business practices aren't that bad? Or was it just a rage thread?
Yes, I'm the one that posted the Returned, not staying thread. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. Their business practices are still reprehensible. I'm still leaving. It doesn't mean there isn't a balance problem that needs looking at.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Crying nerf just because they dont play the same way you do is just childish. If you dont want to play with them, find a group and queue as such.
My Characters on PRIMUS
Toons and costumes thread
@Benevon
Leader of Super Serious Brooding Vigilantes
So ... You aren't staying. Yet, (sarcasm) out of the goodness of your heart (/sarcasm), you call for nerfs to a game that you aren't going to be playing?
Really?
There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you aren't paying for it, you aren't the customer; you are the product being sold.
Dollar, dollar, bill, yo. Cash rules everything around you and me.
If the mobs are dying before I get a chance to drop my charge on them, its time to reconsider the utility of maintains or targeting the boss with my single-target attacks. Don't hold your concept hostage to the build, but don't hold your build hostage to the concept either.
So what you're saying is that you're really concerned.
You leave out a lot of details, like your level, your build, and why you think charging a power on alert trash mobs was a good idea in the first place. Monaahiru's observation is astute.
I have also not seen one player kill an entire pack in less time than it takes to charge one attack. This suggests to me a fair bit of exaggeration on your part, perhaps colored by your dislike of the company. If it IS happening, and you only have charge-ups, then perhaps you should tap them rather than charging on the trash, and leave charging them for the boss.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
How about next time you start with:
- Hi, I've been away for a while. I have this build <you list what you have> and it looks like it's has become a bit underpowered. Could you help?
Start with fire and you may get nuked.
Ask for help, and maybe ...
"Dn't Charge, just Tap", it's maybe one of the good answer.
It isn't to easy to win Gravitar without Healer Support,
but team with too many Support couldn't even do anything in Smash,
AoE DPS wut he is saying OP has no place in Hero Game (Just be easily farmed),
No TANK no Healer, how do we do Therakiel?
The right man should be always in the right place.
Someone nerf crying in mismatch place doing wrong thing is kinda very silly.
L2P
[dev]: there is just no pleasing everyone is there?
advice: stop doing alerts then
Do you use a defensive passive ?
This is an important question related to this discussion because those using offensive passives generally need to defeat foes quickly in order to avoid being defeated themselves.
Also, don't charge your attacks. Tap them. Except in the case of alpha strike situations taps are frequently the better option.
Those spawns are not built to challenge whole teams of freeform characters. Even non DPS builds can solo them.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Nuff said. /fistbump
My Characters on PRIMUS
Toons and costumes thread
@Benevon
Leader of Super Serious Brooding Vigilantes
LOL I laughed too much today. xD
I just wanted to say this thread has been educational, even if OP is a concern troll.
And now I'm also feeling embarrassed, because I've been making some of the possible mistakes being pointed out here in Smash Alerts.
That will change, though...
If you read the other thread referred to, you would know that the reason I stopped playing, and will again stop playing, is specifically because of issues like this. In other words, if they start fixing problems like this, I may not feel the need to leave again.
Now. What I've described does happen, and often. My character, based on Superman, is a L40 freeform character. I realize that as a tanky build, I won't do the damage of a dps build. I'm also aware (having designed similar games for many years), that dps characters need to do the damage quickly, as that's their defense. But how quickly is too quickly.
If I had a character who could jump in, press a button and defeat Grond, you would say it was overpowered. It's an "I Win" button; and you'd be right. So where's the line? The reason I ask is because certain powers are doing essentially this exact thing.
A typical example from last night. The character above enters a museum heist. I notice there's a toxic guy in the group, so I specifically attack a different group from him. I target a boss, charge up an uppercut a little, then again (to build his knock resistance so I can haymaker him without sending him to the moon). This does a bit of damage, and the spawn surrounds me. By this time, epidemic boy has destroyed his whole spawn, and superspeeds into mine. just as I start charging the haymaker. Before it actually fires, the whole spawn is dead.
This happens again and again. It's basically ruined the alerts for me whenever these powers turn up. It's just too much over the top. Yes, I can tap my powers and do basically nothing. I could stand at the police barricade too, and have just as much impact on the mission, and just as much fun. I just don' t see that as a solution.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
but if you want a team experience maybe you should B.Y.O.T.
random teams arent ever going to give you the experience you want.
be social find others like you. perhaps you would fit in with the RPers. not the capprice lot but join the CORP channel. these guys might give you the full experience you want
some of us like to make powerful characters, and the devs do nerf the problems, but to give no reward for mastering the build system. i have 60 different characters all with in their themes, i never take a power that doesn't fit. but maybe when i group all the minions on my tank while DoTing them. you might think me OP. to over nerf will make the entire game boring. so while you can't be a proper "superman" (possibly the most OP character to have his own comics) know that either trying to make your build stronger or teaming with like minded individuals you will get what you want, you might have to do the legwork first.
also realise that alerts are the weakest part of this game, do missions with you friends much more rewarding than plug and play alerts content wise.
Currently Might is underperforming, so instead of nerfing a powerset, you should make suggestions how to make Might better.
Mights big damage dealer used to be Knockback, but people hate Knocks in Alerts.
That a single player can render the entire rest of the team irrelevant is a problem. I'd just like them to look into it, as they said they were going to, several months ago.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Make a team that suits for you playstyle. Don't pug. Find an AoE attack to take the mobs down quicker. Herd all the mobs to one spot, be the tankish "superman".
Alerts are something that people want to run thru quick as possible, they were designed that way.
And if somene could 'I Win' button Grond, it's nowhere near if someone can AoE Alert cannonfoddermobs. 1st one is OverPowered and needs a nerf. 2nd one is nothing special. There's the line. Not too hard to draw the line there.
Are you wanting to balance every power same line with others?
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
I don't really think Might is underperforming. It hits pretty hard, even when I'm using a defensive passive. I think these other powers are overperforming. That's why I think they need a nerf, or at least a review.
I agree, there's a line. On one side is beating Grond. Where the other side begins is the question. I think these particular powers are on the same side as Grond. I can't say by how much, so I can't say how much they would need to be scaled back. I also cant' say precisely where the problem lies. Is it the power itself? A particular advantage? A combination of attributes, specializations and advantages? It seems clear to me there's a problem somewhere. It's just a matter of where, and how severe.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
i can tell you might is under-performing.
but i think your missing the points
do missions with friends
I have found that soloing 5 man instances is pretty harsh (at least on me) it's not so much the big bosses but the large scale swarms that do my toons in but then it is 5 man and on elite most of the time too.
That having been said it is worth bearing in mind just how much characters have been boosted by on alert and F2P.
1. Passives used to scale to specific stats, e.g. Shadow Form was Con and End based if you wanted to go for a Dex/Crit build then you would lose a lot of power from your passive. Invuln used to scale with Str and Int - if you didn't have those SS'd then it wouldn't be much use.
2. Gear was nowhere near as flexible and good as it is now, there were no +95 crit strike gloves or Power cost discount options back in the day. This meant that crit builds were not so common, they did exist but were a popular? minority.
3. Specialisations weren't there either no enhanced defence/offence for you.
4. Dodge used to work differently and on elite setting dodge was pretty much a given for the mobs unless you used a maintain. It was so bad that you just didn't bother actually powering up an attack and high damage maintains were the order of the day.
All of this and a couple of other things mean that characters are much much more capable than they were when the game (and mobs?) were designed.
That having been said it is quite nice to see greater build variety on teams these days. You don't absolutely have to have Skarns Bane, Lightning Storm, Avalanche or Sword Cyclone.
I was never able to do better than 7th place on the Tak fests so yeah there were better damage dealers than myself there but what the hey it's a random drop anyhow and 7th isn't bad.
Funny thing that same toon quite capable of raping Gladiators given a bit of time to maintain em to death was aghast when some slick swine of a HW build would just one shot em. Hmm maybe there is something to these power up attacks?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
The problem some people (like me) have with your motivation is that people have already asked what your build was and given you several feasible reasons for what could be happening, yet you're only just NOW providing this information. And yet you're still here crying about how other people need to be nerfed.
And as some one else pointed out, you were griping about PWE's business model (a valid point, actually). Now instead of quitting since that hasn't changed, you've moved on to complaining about other players.
But it's not Grond, it's a nameless mook. Cannon fodder. This isn't World of you-know-whatsis (I did not know that name was forbidden), where even trash pulls in a instance need a tank and cooperation. You're not the star of the story except in your own mind, as everyone else is in theirs. Whatever else PWE is guilty of, this is just "working as designed."
Personally, if someone else is wiping out things faster than me, I'm a) happy for them b) happy that's one less thing killing me and c) wondering how they're doing it so I can possibly borrow the idea come next level or next alt.
Potentially screwing over a bunch of other players by wanting to nerf their abilities because you (one person) happen to have a non-optimal build for pickup scenarios is not a solution either. This is because for every finely tuned killing machine out there with a given set of powers, there's a batch of non-fine-tuned players with the same powers that you're screwing over if said powers are nerfed.
And since I'm one of those casuals who doesn't have time to fine tune my characters, I'm not so wild about the idea.
Don't gripe about other players doing better than you, figure out how to be better yourself or live with it.
This is true, and has been true since closed beta. Any nerf call, if it is implemented, gets targeted on particular powers. This is how its been in every other MMO, so this is how people think. In CO, it's never the powers, it's the combinations, the synergies.
Fwiw, the trend atm the moment seems to be that powers are being buffed, with very occasional exceptions. However, this is happening slowly, maybe too slowly for some folks' tastes. Also, fwiw, Might has been the ugly stepdaughter of CO for some time now, so it is no wonder that someone playing it is behind the curve.
@ the OP: if you are going to stay, you will need patience. Imo the devs are trying to do good things for the game, but are hindered by budget constraints, which lead to time constraints, as well as assignment of priorities by management. If you're not staying, it might still be advisable to learn waht is going on before invoking the nerf bat.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
How true for all of that...
Ever since I came back to the game myself I've been reading the forums and Googling the internet for information (which mostly just gives me links back to the forum) and all I can say is thank goodness I have a LTS and several retcons for each character saved up.
I would much rather prefer they bump less effective powers up rather than knocking down good powers, so I'm glad to hear that's the trend. It's always been way more fun to log into a game (any of them) after a patch/expansion and find a particular class has gotten some extra love. Even if it's not mine. I guess that's because I'm not a PvPer...
I hope I don't sound like I'm kissing up to PWE. I really hate some things like the lockboxes, mod system and vehicles (as they are now) and I wish this game wasn't just a cash cow to them. But I can work around those things and I've still got a ways to go before I've exhausted the existing content.
Since this game is essentially CoH v. 2, it sounds like it's working as intended.
The designers have made some basic changes to CO to avoid some of the pitfalls CoH had (overpowered controllers and so on), but the games obviously share some aspects.
The fact that we have separate tank roles and ranged damage roles indicates that the devs expect and encourage this kind of optimization. Your character is likely much more able to take massive amounts of damage than the AoE ranged damage build you're complaining about. That's the whole point of being able to select different roles.
The problem here is not that ranged melee builds are overpowered, it's that you don't feel special. Hamstringing the rest of the team so that you can feel special is not a call for balance, it's a call for mediocrity.
You've selected a character type that has the tank role. If you don't feel special enough in that role, create another character that does make you feel special. We all have the same opportunities to create multiple characters to fill the different roles.
Just because your role as tank happens to feel redundant on that particular alert doesn't mean that your tank is worthless. It's just not as critical on that alert. There are many situations in the game where your tank will shine.
Bottom line: if alerts frustrate you, don't do them. Do content that you find more entertaining.
That might all be true, if the OP was in the tank role, using attacks advantaged with taunts. As a subscriber, he is freeform, and is thus free not to do that, while still choosing Might. Since he describes his character as "tanky," my guess is he is running in Hybrid with a defensive passive. While great for leveling if you want no stress, that option is sub-optimal in alerts.
Might is indeed considered UP by the players who've been playing it long term in CO. Every non-T0 attack power, except maybe Mini mines, trivializes the content. My guesses as to why they are buffing instead of nerfing? Either they have given up on trying to balance and are slowly getting around to buffing, so that everyone can just nuke minions; or they are planning to add harder stuff after all the buffing is done, whenever that will be.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Tapping your powers is not basically doing nothing. Tap spamming attacks will often outperform charged attacks. Your own experiences support this. When you attempt to charge an attack you do no damage. When tapping your attacks repeatedly you will do damage.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
The foes in alerts are actually tougher than the average foes you meet on the streets and in missions. They do a bit more damage, and they can withstand a lot more damage. They're expressly designed to challenge TEAMS.
Despite this, there are powers like Epidemic that are completely trivializing them. That shouldn't be happening. No power should make it possible for one hero to take on team content with little or no threat or challenge. It's just bad design.
However, it's clear I'm in the minority. I had posted to see if anyone else thought the same as I do, but seemingly no one does. So be it.
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521
Epidemic does not trivialize the encounters any more than a halfway decent defensive build does. Since mobs do not self heal (for the most part) a reasonably well built tank can solo the same foes that the epidemic character can, and do so with less chance of dying.
This is not possible in a game with Freeform character building. Or at least not with THIS game's Freeform character set up.
This is particularly the case in CO where foes do not have self heals (for the most part) and so a well built defensive passive character, even if he does not do as much damage as an offensively specced character, can solo things that offensive characters frequently cannot.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Whats up with people thinking that they really have a good idea? I mean really...
You 2 should have very fruitful conversation.
Both of the threads are missing the real point to the stuff they want to happen.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Look in the mirror. I mean what's up with people trolling rather than at least trying to offer something productive in a post rather than just sneering at another's ideas even if you disagree with them...
I think you could find some productive reading right HERE.
Even when that other's idea consists essentially of, "the way I prefer to play the game is how it should be played and everyone else should be required to follow suit," and, "Those who play according to my preferences should be allowed the ability to do things that I propose be denied to those that don't ?"
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
The "flippy shooty thing" is Lead Tempest by the way, and i can't remember that it was ever overpowered beside the fact that it has a huge range
I think the problem is that he wants to swing the nerf bat without having a great understanding of the game. Also, alerts are subjective to who is in the alert. He should try an alert with all level 6's, he'd probably be wishing for an overpowered build to be there to help.
Keep in mind that he's specifically talking about grab alerts where he's a level 40, so with sidekicking many lvl 29-30 builds would be stronger than him.
In PVEland (non-alerts), what does it matter if a build can steam roll all the content, I don't understand how it would effect you?
epidemic will never hit the power creep you are talking about
Take all the heavy aoes people use and compare the energy cost of those to the aoes people don't use often. They cost a lot more, but that isn't a real issue anymore.
The amount of energy gains and cost reductions we have now, combined with all of the energy unlocks and energy boosts from forms...those powers that weren't meant to last the full maintain are easily maintained indefinitely. This is what is allowing the huge dps spikes, so naturally, players skip over the aoes meant to be a "cheap" filler because they can already fully maintain the big ones.
So instead of QQ some powers are better than the ones I picked, it should be QQ why can't we have more energy issues instead of just everyone spamming massive attacks everywhere obliterating everything before I get to use my subpar, energy-efficient powers?
Remember: Half the people you know are below average...
Do not correct a fool, for he will hate you for it. Correct a wise man, for he will appreciate you for it.
Don't be like the Qularr. They would not last one round in the Interstellar Galactic Arena...
Handle @brayv
Back in early CB in my first play session, I auto-leveled to 20 and could find no instructions on powering up. So, I was fighting level 22's with just Righteous Fists and Thundering Kicks. I did OK except when I got mobbed at the Hunter/Patriot helicopter pad. Now, if I'd had a ranked up Hundred Hands, yeah, no problem.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
_______________________________________________
HAHA... that was you in the PH testing. I was wondering what you where doing loosing all that HP hehe.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This was awesome while it lasted
_______________________________________________
I agree harder content is needed, but without some sort of level gate like Gravitar has, Alerts aren't the place to put that content.
After the nerf: Damn, they broked the power, it sucks now!!!
IMO, some ppl should stop crying nerf, and learn how to use their build properly...
I have 18 toons, 13 ATs and 5 FF, each one with a different set of powers, passives, roles and so on...
When I'm playing with my Tank, i LOVE when there's a great DPS by my side, so I can grab aggro, and leave him do his job: DAMAGE!!!
I hate when playing with a DPS, there's no Tank, or there is a half-**** tank, that just can't or (in some cases) simply won't get aggro... Some of my dps will get aggro from almost any tanks, but that's no reason so say: hey, nerf my damage so the other guy can drop some mobs! (probably while the boss is busting my **** over there)...
Or the ppl who create a Radiant (yes, the AT, specially designed for heals!!) and try to dps with this... I mean, c'mon folks!! I'm not talking about ppl in support role, but the damn archetype!! IT`S A HEALER!!! :mad: But again, that's no reason to ask for nerf healers' powers...
Some ppl need to learn to play the game, as I have learn, asking for help and tips, instead of crying nerf for all the good powers we have left on the game...
After all, this is Champions Online, and when i'm playing, I want to feel like a superhero!!!
It should be perfectly normal that geared lv40s are ripping through sub-lv40 content... right?
Alas, we can never achieve this goal. But we can try and watch as our dream shatters right before our eyes...but at least we tried, right?
(That was me poking fun at the subject)
Something like Gravitar + Sky Command + Hi-Pan + Warlord with very good due shall be good.
Now, I'm not blaming the player. He's using his powers as they were designed. I blame the design, which is clearly unbalanced in some way. That suggests a nerf of some kind is needed. It might only take the root effect mentioned above. It might mean adjusting an advantage or synergy with a particular specialization. All I mean is that I think it's a bit out of balance.
What was said about defenses being equally unbalanced is also true. My characters tend to incredibly hard to hurt. I could probably make my way through alerts all on my own too, with one significant difference. When I do that, I'm not going to prevent anyone else from enjoying the alert. That the enemy can't hurt me doesn't affect the other players.
I think the mobs are strong enough. I think they do enough damage, and I think they can withstand enough damage. I think the problem is that there is just too much DPS (as the title says).
Crafting, Exploration and Interaction as it should be:
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=1108521