I dunno, it seems like a pretty ugly bag of worms to go back and apply a big retroactive change to all devices in the game like this.
I think I would prefer they just remove all the Backup devices, if this is their "fix".
It is an all or nothing choice for me, either fix all the other bonuses (damage, heals, pet specs, etc) on all devices, or no bonus at all.
I prefer the no bonus at all option, with devices that are equally useful for everyone. Of course a lot of the older devices need their effectiveness increased.
How can shadow strike do 40k per hit? You would need some insane debuffing since damage bonuses do not affect shadow strike, or it's not suppose to, and it doesn't get critical bonus.
On that note, comparing Shadow Strike to someone who has 5 of those devices, they weren't as rare as people make them out to be, at 200k damage bursts every 33 seconds (quit trying to say it wasn't possible, there were people doing it and purposely locking people out of the Gravitar fight) that would be 6666 DPS per backup summoned every roughly 30 seconds. Or in basic terms, that was 33333 DPS.
For comparison, my test with Shadow Strike, which seems to be getting the melee damage role bonus, though it shouldn't be if I understood correctly, with debuffing applied was getting close to 26k damage. And for me it recharges in 25 seconds. That's 1040 DPS. If you can hit 40k damage shadow strikes, that's only 1600 DPS and that's provided all you do is shadow strike and nothing else.
Trying to equate 40k damage to to 200k damage in the same time period as equivalent is being a tad silly. I hit around 2000 DPS normally doing my tank thing, even if you do hit 40k shadow strikes, which I don't see as possible atm, but I won't discredit, you are not hitting even my low level DPS mark if all you are doing is shadow striking. These devices on the other hand just one of them with as the system currently is is hitting 6666 DPS, and if you are using 5 of them every 30 seconds which a couple of people did, that was over 30k DPS in 30 seconds.
There is a lot of bad logic here, but instead of getting into that, let me just say that I don't think anyone is arguing that 5 Backup devices should be usable at a time. I think that fix is a given.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
There is a lot of bad logic here, but instead of getting into that, let me just say that I don't think anyone is arguing that 5 Backup devices should be usable at a time. I think that fix is a given.
If there is bad logic would be wise to point it out then, instead of saying its just bad logic and trying to hand wave it. 40k damage in 25 seconds is 1600 DPS. That's a fact. 200k damage in 30 seconds is 6666.6 DPS, that's a fact. The two numbers aren't even comparable. And I stated that if all you did was shadow strike you still wouldn't compare to the devices, or even just flat out raw DPS of someone doing standard attacking.
Bug
When I used a Nighthawk backup (against Eclipse) I clicked on the device and he took a coupla shots against the correct target but after he'd vanished the device image remained on my cursor which was a pain
You are aware that the Bloodmoon drops are the old bloodmoon drops?
Myself (Electra Woman and Dyna Girl) and another player duo'd Eclipse and it took ages (of course) we were both rewarded with an awesomely dated blue primary, same with Nimbus the drops are antiquated.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
If there is bad logic would be wise to point it out then, instead of saying its just bad logic and trying to hand wave it. 40k damage in 25 seconds is 1600 DPS. That's a fact. 200k damage in 30 seconds is 6666.6 DPS, that's a fact. The two numbers aren't even comparable. And I stated that if all you did was shadow strike you still wouldn't compare to the devices, or even just flat out raw DPS of someone doing standard attacking.
1.) No one is saying you should be able to use 5 devices at a time, and that fix is a done deal, so why are you using that in your example? The question should be what is the impact of 1 device.
2.) Where did you get 200K damage for the device? Is that in your own testing? Because in my test this morning, I was getting approximately 120K damage from one of the devices..
3.) It is possible to get 42K damage out of Shadow Strike (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mcwzsg&s=6).
4.) When comparing the time factor, you were using the best imaginable (if 30 minutes down to 30 seconds is even possible) time factor for the device vs. the standard time factor for Shadow Strike. It should be an apples to apples comparison, either using the base cooldowns or an equally applied percentage of the base cooldown.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
1.) No one is saying you should be able to use 5 devices at a time, and that fix is a done deal, so why are you using that in your example? The question should be what is the impact of 1 device.
2.) Where did you get 200K damage for the device? Is that in your own testing? Because in my test this morning, I was getting approximately 120K damage from one of the devices..
3.) It is possible to get 42K damage out of Shadow Strike (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mcwzsg&s=6).
4.) When comparing the time factor, you were using the best imaginable (if 30 minutes down to 30 seconds is even possible) time factor for the device vs. the standard time factor for Shadow Strike. It should be an apples to apples comparison, either using the base cooldowns or an equally applied percentage of the base cooldown.
1) I was using one device for 6666.6 DPS. 33k is with 5.
2) My tests have shown the minimum was 150k damage, I've done higher than 150k damage in a single burst. 200k is not out of the norm from what I've seen since I've seen one of these devices take nearly a 5th of Grav's health.
3) How are you achieving this number, and when was this pic taken? I was just on test and my best efforts only got to 26k damage and that was after I debuffed the target.
4) 30 seconds is quite possible in the current system. If you followed the same apples to apples comparison, you would pretty much lose out on a lot of the advantages that Shadow Strike would get to get your mystical 40k damage, since you are still not saying how you achieved this, though I am now wondering if you were using that example screen shot from a burst which boosts damage ridiculously anyways. Since to use reviltalize would require using an energy builder, and doing that would remove stealth from you regardless. On top of this factor, the device is fighting while you are revitalizing and as revitalize is a percentage change, it has a greater effect on the devices since they have a much larger numbered value where with shadow strike the return would be marginal, especially since you would have to restealth to make the most of it. So there would be no apples to apples comparison.
Wasn't Shadow Strike not scaling properly in Bursts? As in it was crap or has that been fixed? I am curious to see a 40k Shadow Strike is done though since I usually see them at around 20k-24k.
Wasn't Shadow Strike not scaling properly in Bursts? As in it was crap or has that been fixed? I am curious to see a 40k Shadow Strike is done though since I usually see them at around 20k-24k.
I honestly hardly ever see Shadow Strike used in an alert. To be honest, I haven't seen Shadow Strike used in an alert for a few weeks. The only time I really hear it complained about is from a PvP perspective.
In the name of science I tested the minimum cooldowns I could get with my Revitalize toon with both a Backup device and Shadow Strike. The Defender device again did about 120K damage and using Revitalize was ready for reuse in 55 seconds. Shadow Strike was ready for reuse in 8 seconds.
With the base 21K hits for Shadow Strike, that's 2625DPS. Compared to 2181DPS for the Backup device. Perhaps your actual (non-anecdotal) tests will give slightly different results, but this is what I am seeing.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
In the name of science I tested the minimum cooldowns I could get with my Revitalize toon with both a Backup device and Shadow Strike. The Defender device again did about 120K damage and using Revitalize was ready for reuse in 55 seconds. Shadow Strike was ready for reuse in 8 seconds.
With the base 21K hits for Shadow Strike, that's 2625DPS. Compared to 2181DPS for the Backup device. Perhaps your actual (non-anecdotal) tests will give slightly different results, but this is what I am seeing.
It wasn't being anecdotal, as it's quite possible to get the devices down to 33 seconds. If you completely ignore gear, yea 55 seconds will probably be your best time. Also, you seem to be neglecting time it takes to restealth in your anecdotal, since it takes 4 seconds to restealth in your figures. Also, you stated earlier 5% health which Gravitar has 2.9 million, that's a bare min of 150k damage, not 120k damage. Finally, the backup build requires no special set ups unlike the shadow strike build, which you forgot to add 4 seconds for the restealthing. So if you got down to 8 seconds, cool so that is 12 seconds total, for 1750 DPS.
Also forgot the 1 second charge time on shadow strike so that throws that DPS lower as well.
In the name of science I tested the minimum cooldowns I could get with my Revitalize toon with both a Backup device and Shadow Strike. The Defender device again did about 120K damage and using Revitalize was ready for reuse in 55 seconds. Shadow Strike was ready for reuse in 8 seconds.
With the base 21K hits for Shadow Strike, that's 2625DPS. Compared to 2181DPS for the Backup device. Perhaps your actual (non-anecdotal) tests will give slightly different results, but this is what I am seeing.
It is a bit academic now, but those numbers are certainly not the optimal usage of those devices.
A recharge of a little over 30 seconds is very much possible, and the strongest device I have seen does 200k damage (Ironclad). 6k dps is certainly possible even with a shared cooldown. The change that made all devices immune to cooldown reduction made the sustained dps more acceptable, but the burst damage is still way over the top.
If you completely ignore gear, yea 55 seconds will probably be your best time.
Not even then. Revitalize does 6% reduction when it procs, you need 100% reduction for the device to recharge, so that is 100/6=16,66 procs. It procs for a maximum of once per 2 seconds, so that is 16,66x2=33,33 seconds. Because you will not proc at exactly the 2 second mark you can add a few seconds to that, but even on my 'no recharge reduction at all' melee dps, I managed 37 seconds.
Not even then. Revitalize does 6% reduction when it procs, you need 100% reduction for the device to recharge, so that is 100/6=16,66 procs. It procs for a maximum of once per 2 seconds, so that is 16,66x2=33,33 seconds. Because you will not proc at exactly the 2 second mark you can add a few seconds to that, but even on my 'no recharge reduction at all' melee dps, I managed 37 seconds.
'
Interesting. I even have CD reduction mods and I'm still not getting that. I wonder if the energy builder activation time is a factor. Which EB do you use?
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Can confirm that Takofanes at least is dropping modern gear, I came second out of 3 and got......
Hospitable eyepiece and and a whole Primus Recognition.
Somebody else got a Foxbat AF.
Don't all rush us at once with your offers to trade.
Lolz I know it's not the loot it's the principle of the thing.
P.S. something dropped a bull skull cozzie unlock during fight.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Interesting. I even have CD reduction mods and I'm still not getting that. I wonder if the energy builder activation time is a factor. Which EB do you use?
Radiance, the default one used for these kinds of builds. It heals once per 0.34 seconds, so it would activate revitalize once per 2.04 seconds.
Can confirm that Takofanes at least is dropping modern gear, I came second out of 3 and got......
Hospitable eyepiece and and a whole Primus Recognition.
Somebody else got a Foxbat AF.
Don't all rush us at once with your offers to trade.
Lolz I know it's not the loot it's the principle of the thing.
P.S. something dropped a bull skull cozzie unlock during fight.
Wow Cryptic that kinda of gear drop for a special event cosmic is great!
(If you didn't notice, that was drooling in sarcasm, how about you give us worthwhile stuff? Resources? Purple secondaries? Though they drop everywhere as it is...)
Why not give us a reason to farm Takofanes? Special 'heirloom' gear would even suffice.
Wow Cryptic that kinda of gear drop for a special event cosmic is great!
(If you didn't notice, that was drooling in sarcasm, how about you give us worthwhile stuff? Resources? Purple secondaries? Though they drop everywhere as it is...)
Why not give us a reason to farm Takofanes? Special 'heirloom' gear would even suffice.
I might weep if takofanes put up a decent fight like he use to
Items:?Backup Devices now have a shared 30 Minute Cooldown
NONONONONONO that is not a good solution:
only reason they are able to be spammed is because people exploit revitalize on the int tree (energy builder reduces cooldown a said % depending on rank). In fact, thats the ONLY way they are being spammed: i admit, i use my backups a lot, but they each have a 13 min cooldown (from high int and cooldown redux gear) but still thats a long time.
the real solution to make everyone (except the exploiters(who should be slapped in the face anyway)) happy is to nerf that spec on the int tree: make it only effect power cooldowns.
if you still persist on the shared cooldown crud: please atleast make then no longer bindable
>>So far I found a bug with accepting team requests that it breaks your chat window and all the other options of channels for chat are pushed through the bottom of the chat window itself.
only reason they are able to be spammed is because people exploit revitalize on the int tree (energy builder reduces cooldown a said % depending on rank). In fact, thats the ONLY way they are being spammed: i admit, i use my backups a lot, but they each have a 13 min cooldown (from high int and cooldown redux gear) but still thats a long time.
the real solution to make everyone (except the exploiters(who should be slapped in the face anyway)) happy is to nerf that spec on the int tree: make it only effect power cooldowns.
if you still persist on the shared cooldown crud: please atleast make then no longer bindable
agreed 100%, you would destroy the whole reason of having multiple at once.. thus destroying any reason to keep farming the event, outside keeping them to sell.
If there is bad logic would be wise to point it out then, instead of saying its just bad logic and trying to hand wave it. 40k damage in 25 seconds is 1600 DPS. That's a fact. 200k damage in 30 seconds is 6666.6 DPS, that's a fact. The two numbers aren't even comparable. And I stated that if all you did was shadow strike you still wouldn't compare to the devices, or even just flat out raw DPS of someone doing standard attacking.
You can use shadow strike with smoke bomb for 40k or slightly more. While smoke bomb is on cooldown, you can still use shadow strike. 20k. If you are using revitalise to cool these attacks then you can use them very frequently
1) I was using one device for 6666.6 DPS. 33k is with 5.
2) My tests have shown the minimum was 150k damage, I've done higher than 150k damage in a single burst. 200k is not out of the norm from what I've seen since I've seen one of these devices take nearly a 5th of Grav's health.
3) How are you achieving this number, and when was this pic taken? I was just on test and my best efforts only got to 26k damage and that was after I debuffed the target.
4) 30 seconds is quite possible in the current system. If you followed the same apples to apples comparison, you would pretty much lose out on a lot of the advantages that Shadow Strike would get to get your mystical 40k damage, since you are still not saying how you achieved this, though I am now wondering if you were using that example screen shot from a burst which boosts damage ridiculously anyways. Since to use reviltalize would require using an energy builder, and doing that would remove stealth from you regardless. On top of this factor, the device is fighting while you are revitalizing and as revitalize is a percentage change, it has a greater effect on the devices since they have a much larger numbered value where with shadow strike the return would be marginal, especially since you would have to restealth to make the most of it. So there would be no apples to apples comparison.
Revitalise does not need to break stealth if you are using radiance.
Not even then. Revitalize does 6% reduction when it procs, you need 100% reduction for the device to recharge, so that is 100/6=16,66 procs. It procs for a maximum of once per 2 seconds, so that is 16,66x2=33,33 seconds. Because you will not proc at exactly the 2 second mark you can add a few seconds to that, but even on my 'no recharge reduction at all' melee dps, I managed 37 seconds.
Yes that is correct. Radiance will be the one for revitalise and it can cool the device to ideally at best 33 secs.
Taking 200k damage as the benchmark is using the highest damage output with comparison to an average output. I am referring to 3k/s maintained damage.
So revitalise cools shadow strike to gives a 20k attack every 8 secs and in every 20 secs for a 40k attack. This is very possible.
A nerf to all devices' cooldown? Now that's what I call a cryptic approach. Let me just redo my entire build now. Perhaps a refund of all my money spent on rank up catalysts and questionites and mods and Gs will be most useful.
Did they seriously nerf all devices to not be effected by any cooldown?
If this is true and unintentional, please remove this. We don't need this just to nerf the stupid Backup devices.
If this is true and it's intentional, this is the dumbest thing I've seen done since I've played this game, makes no sense, and strips pretty much every single character of a portion of the impact they get from their cooldown reduction. Everyone has some of this.
It's also really boring in comparison to not see a little extra through devices when you improve your cooldown.
Just grinded a crypt ah the good old days. The drops are an interesting mix of old and new.
Crypt Radion
Kills
Will of Tak - Questionite box
Might/Strength of Tak - Questionite box and potentiality boots + 10% catalyst + bone whistle or maybe the cloud summon
Harbinger of woe - Alchemists Eternal Miricale of Kurma 59 Rec + End on kill blue primary offence
Pickups from treasure chests
Zombie Bone
Pestilent cloud summon
Low power borrowed life invocation
Other - Resistance duster
Guess I'll try some others and see if I can get a Q box from the Harbinger of woe
Just did Nimbus crypt + Nimbus of course
Couldn't find the Will of Tak
Strength of Tak yielded blue secondary (modern) 10% catalyst + Q box
Picked up 2 x Low power mystic shields
Harbinger of woe still giving old stuff - this time an Alchemists Eternal Brace which is similar to the other thing End on kill/59 Rec
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Did they seriously nerf all devices to not be effected by any cooldown?
If this is true and unintentional, please remove this. We don't need this just to nerf the stupid Backup devices.
If this is true and it's intentional, this is the dumbest thing I've seen done since I've played this game, makes no sense, and strips pretty much every single character of a portion of the impact they get from their cooldown reduction. Everyone has some of this.
It's also really boring in comparison to not see a little extra through devices when you improve your cooldown.
Whole-heartedly agree with this.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Funny cause I don't have a device bound on Ankylon and I've outranked you a number of times. Please just stop talking like you can pull off the 200k+ points that the people using devices were able to do during the event.
EDIT: Was it 200k or 2000k? Not the point, you can easily see when a person is using a device by how big a gap there was between scores.
This should have been an all or nothing decision from the start, either make devices benefit from all powers and items and mechanics in the game, or non. Since there are a lot of those, choosing non to work is the easier option.
Besides it being easier, making a level playing field for devices is not a bad choice. If this change is to stay, I do hope devices themselves get some love in the near future.
As for cooldown reduction being made less important, it does not need to work on devices to be worth it. If anything it is by far the best option for util items at the moment, and will still be the best or among the best when not working on devices.
This should have been an all or nothing decision from the start, either make devices benefit from all powers and items and mechanics in the game, or non. Since there are a lot of those, choosing non to work is the easier option.
Besides it being easier, making a level playing field for devices is not a bad choice. If this change is to stay, I do hope devices themselves get some love in the near future.
As for cooldown reduction being made less important, it does not need to work on devices to be worth it. If anything it is by far the best option for util items at the moment, and will still be the best or among the best when not working on devices.
You are bringing this further and further. Let the cooldown reduction and revitalise work on devices. Forget about the shared cooldown even. Just lower the damage output of each activation and we can call it a day. Say 1/10 of the 100k or 150k or 200k whatever it is. Your suggestion of a flat change impacts ALL devices and everyone with a device with a substantially long cooldown. Does it solve the inherent problem of the initial high burst then which so many of you are SO concerned about? No.
So lower that spike to something which makes sense and let the devices cool separately and work with revitalise. You address the device and everything else remain status quo.
You are bringing this further and further. Let the cooldown reduction and revitalise work on devices. Forget about the shared cooldown even. Just lower the damage output of each activation and we can call it a day. Say 1/10 of the 100k or 150k or 200k whatever it is. Your suggestion of a flat change impacts ALL devices and everyone with a device with a substantially long cooldown. Does it solve the inherent problem of the initial high burst then which so many of you are SO concerned about? No.
So lower that spike to something which makes sense and let the devices cool separately and work with revitalise. You address the device and everything else remain status quo.
I am not making these changes, I am giving my opinion about already implemented changes on PTS, intended or no. I can see a big advantage to this, if there are plans to add more high performance devices to the game, everyone gets the same boost in effectiveness. Most devices are tied to content, having added content impact balance is not smart, it will continue to be an issue.
Of course the burst damage these particular devices do needs to still be adjusted.
Oh yes I forgot about the eagle PR (gear no longer available). Does reaper embrace hit up to 40k? Not sure about that one.
it hits 20-30k easily, to hit 40k with SStrike it requres you to exploit a bug (Which has been reported)
Nerfing SStrike would be silly stupid, it requires Sneak, which you can see through simply with 200 int (or perception gear and NO int...its really that weak).
Nerfing Ascension? Well you help balance Ranged/Melee in PvP and fix the bug in Hi Pan's special Alert.
Nerfing Revitalize? You fix PERMANENT Active Defense/Offenses from running. And you help fix Backup device abuse, although they really should deal with the issue and nerf their damage.
Nerfing AoPM? You stop people from BREAKING THE GAME.
Pick one.
Let's nerf shadowstrike while we are at it since it has the highest spike power in game possinly double of what any other attacks are able to deal.
Lets also nerf...
...
Oh god, that's a huge list. Alright, let's just put it this way: "Let's nerf everything that isn't Two Gun Mojo." Oh, I bet some of you would probably love that. Seriously, this whiny nerf herding is ridiculous. We're talking about:
A support passive which is only broken because the system around it...
An active offense power who's bonuses are practically pathetic in PvE... (this needs to respected nailed, however)
And a spec that requires constant use of the energy builder to get any real mileage out of.
I really, REALLY hope they aren't reading this and taking any of it seriously. Of all the things you COULD complain about, right here, in this thread, Force Cascade isn't on the list, Ebon Ruin isn't on the list, Infernal as a whole is largely absent, Lightning Arc and Gigaspam aren't anywhere to be seen... That's just the attacks, don't even get me started on the various buffs and passives that outperform in one way or another.
And you know what? They could nerf all that in addition to the three things listed, no one would bat an eyelash that they practically trashed the sets they're part of, and be on to nerf herding something like Fireball with UA next. "Chopping block" indeed.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
I am not making these changes, I am giving my opinion about already implemented changes on PTS, intended or no. I can see a big advantage to this, if there are plans to add more high performance devices to the game, everyone gets the same boost in effectiveness. Most devices are tied to content, having added content impact balance is not smart, it will continue to be an issue.
Of course the burst damage these particular devices do needs to still be adjusted.
Yes I was actually trying to phrase that right but short because you were more of agreeing to that change intended or not rather than suggesting. Any non-cosmetic devices have impact on content. Even DA gives energy on return from MSA if people have not noticed.
More high performance devices? You mean the uproar from the backups are not enough? Level 60 devices which hits for 100, 150 or 200k in 15 secs. More types of devices that deal 100 k damage which are not backups and hence no shared cooldown? So people rotate through their entire inventory of high performance devices instead of cooling them down? Let me just share another thing. Purple dragon staffs do not share cooldown. I have 3 of these and they do not bind. You can literally have an inventory full of these staffs and fire them one after another.
So lower their burst damage and shared cooldown and no cooldown reduction from revitalise. Nice, a three-fold nerf. Why not just make these devices which people paid for, farmed for just action figures. There problem solved. No one abuses them. No one will want them except for avid collectors.
I am not making these changes, I am giving my opinion about already implemented changes on PTS, intended or no. I can see a big advantage to this, if there are plans to add more high performance devices to the game, everyone gets the same boost in effectiveness. Most devices are tied to content, having added content impact balance is not smart, it will continue to be an issue.
Of course the burst damage these particular devices do needs to still be adjusted.
Well, if we're going down this route, then devices should not be affected by stats or bonuses at all. Why just single-out Int/cooldown modifiers? They shouldn't be affected by critical modifiers, healing bonuses, damage bonuses etc., so that each device is equal in effectiveness between builds. Of course, then all current devices will be severely underpowered, so they'll have to be individually balanced to be useful again, which I'm sure will take some effort.
Or they could just reduce the base damage on the Backup device and not worry about breaking everything else.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
it hits 20-30k easily, to hit 40k with SStrike it requres you to exploit a bug (Which has been reported)
Nerfing SStrike would be silly stupid, it requires Sneak, which you can see through simply with 200 int (or perception gear and NO int...its really that weak).
Nerfing Ascension? Well you help balance Ranged/Melee in PvP and fix the bug in Hi Pan's special Alert.
Nerfing Revitalize? You fix PERMANENT Active Defense/Offenses from running. And you help fix Backup device abuse, although they really should deal with the issue and nerf their damage.
Nerfing AoPM? You stop people from BREAKING THE GAME.
Pick one.
20 to 30k nicely, but does it hit 40k?
Err using smoke bomb with shadowstrike to get 40k is a bug exploit? Or was it intentional? And has it been nerfed?
To be honest, there are many ways to kill a revitalise build. Ask Haneef. If you know how to do it properly, a shadowstrike toon will be able to 1 shot a revitalise build. CD build users also do not use Percept gear and mod as that would compromise cooldown. That is something they gave up.
Noticed I have not actually asked for ascension nerf or aopm nerf? I emphasize "actually" because while I do see issues they bring, I do not cry nerf but I deal with them. I only raise them as comparison to what others are asking to nerf.
Well, if we're going down this route, then devices should not be affected by stats or bonuses at all. Why just single-out Int/cooldown modifiers? They shouldn't be affected by critical modifiers, healing bonuses, damage bonuses etc., so that each device is equal in effectiveness between builds. Of course, then all current devices will be severely underpowered, so they'll have to be individually balanced to be useful again, which I'm sure will take some effort.
Or they could just reduce the base damage on the Backup device and not worry about breaking everything else.
This. Signed. Best way I think. And let me summon my Justice League or Avengers Assemble even though I only have 1 of these items and not binded.
The backups should be better than fireflight (not ridiculously but definitely better since they are purple hence 1/10 of current damage to me is far more than reasonable). Fireflight do not share CD with other BM devices. So neither should they.
Err using smoke bomb with shadowstrike to get 40k is a bug exploit? Or was it intentional? And has it been nerfed?
I have no idea, they refuse to address it, but thats not Shadow Strike, thats Smoke Bomb, which has a ridiculous CD.
Nerfing Revitalise ah yes I forgot you are a proponent who said that intel is OP. Let's just remove the whole stat.
You're arguing whether or not being able to have Permanent Actives is OP or not? Forget Intelligence as a whole (which would bring my CD of MD down to ~30seconds) look at this a percentage based CD reduction, straight up percentage cuts to Masterful Dodge, Ascension, you name it, thats OP, making it a flat cooldown reduction would've been the smart thing.
Well, if we're going down this route, then devices should not be affected by stats or bonuses at all. Why just single-out Int/cooldown modifiers? They shouldn't be affected by critical modifiers, healing bonuses, damage bonuses etc., so that each device is equal in effectiveness between builds. Of course, then all current devices will be severely underpowered, so they'll have to be individually balanced to be useful again, which I'm sure will take some effort.
Or they could just reduce the base damage on the Backup device and not worry about breaking everything else.
Yes agreed. Of course a lot of devices need some serious love either way.
Where is the giant bucket of common sense you two took a drink from?
Seriously, this is all that's needed. People will probably end up having more fun with these devices anyway, if they rework them into regular SK devices with an unlimited timer. The only people to complain will be the ones who SPECIFICALLY used them to break encounters, as everyone else is more likely to be enthused by the fact they have a permanent version of one of the Champions they can fight with.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Comments
It is an all or nothing choice for me, either fix all the other bonuses (damage, heals, pet specs, etc) on all devices, or no bonus at all.
I prefer the no bonus at all option, with devices that are equally useful for everyone. Of course a lot of the older devices need their effectiveness increased.
There is a lot of bad logic here, but instead of getting into that, let me just say that I don't think anyone is arguing that 5 Backup devices should be usable at a time. I think that fix is a given.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
However I feel that devices should ALL follow the SAME rules for every player regardless of cool down reduction.
If there is bad logic would be wise to point it out then, instead of saying its just bad logic and trying to hand wave it. 40k damage in 25 seconds is 1600 DPS. That's a fact. 200k damage in 30 seconds is 6666.6 DPS, that's a fact. The two numbers aren't even comparable. And I stated that if all you did was shadow strike you still wouldn't compare to the devices, or even just flat out raw DPS of someone doing standard attacking.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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When I used a Nighthawk backup (against Eclipse) I clicked on the device and he took a coupla shots against the correct target but after he'd vanished the device image remained on my cursor which was a pain
You are aware that the Bloodmoon drops are the old bloodmoon drops?
Myself (Electra Woman and Dyna Girl) and another player duo'd Eclipse and it took ages (of course) we were both rewarded with an awesomely dated blue primary, same with Nimbus the drops are antiquated.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
During the bloodmoon test I asked Drannic, he said this was already reported to the devs.
1.) No one is saying you should be able to use 5 devices at a time, and that fix is a done deal, so why are you using that in your example? The question should be what is the impact of 1 device.
2.) Where did you get 200K damage for the device? Is that in your own testing? Because in my test this morning, I was getting approximately 120K damage from one of the devices..
3.) It is possible to get 42K damage out of Shadow Strike (http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2mcwzsg&s=6).
4.) When comparing the time factor, you were using the best imaginable (if 30 minutes down to 30 seconds is even possible) time factor for the device vs. the standard time factor for Shadow Strike. It should be an apples to apples comparison, either using the base cooldowns or an equally applied percentage of the base cooldown.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
1) I was using one device for 6666.6 DPS. 33k is with 5.
2) My tests have shown the minimum was 150k damage, I've done higher than 150k damage in a single burst. 200k is not out of the norm from what I've seen since I've seen one of these devices take nearly a 5th of Grav's health.
3) How are you achieving this number, and when was this pic taken? I was just on test and my best efforts only got to 26k damage and that was after I debuffed the target.
4) 30 seconds is quite possible in the current system. If you followed the same apples to apples comparison, you would pretty much lose out on a lot of the advantages that Shadow Strike would get to get your mystical 40k damage, since you are still not saying how you achieved this, though I am now wondering if you were using that example screen shot from a burst which boosts damage ridiculously anyways. Since to use reviltalize would require using an energy builder, and doing that would remove stealth from you regardless. On top of this factor, the device is fighting while you are revitalizing and as revitalize is a percentage change, it has a greater effect on the devices since they have a much larger numbered value where with shadow strike the return would be marginal, especially since you would have to restealth to make the most of it. So there would be no apples to apples comparison.
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I honestly hardly ever see Shadow Strike used in an alert. To be honest, I haven't seen Shadow Strike used in an alert for a few weeks. The only time I really hear it complained about is from a PvP perspective.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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With the base 21K hits for Shadow Strike, that's 2625DPS. Compared to 2181DPS for the Backup device. Perhaps your actual (non-anecdotal) tests will give slightly different results, but this is what I am seeing.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
It wasn't being anecdotal, as it's quite possible to get the devices down to 33 seconds. If you completely ignore gear, yea 55 seconds will probably be your best time. Also, you seem to be neglecting time it takes to restealth in your anecdotal, since it takes 4 seconds to restealth in your figures. Also, you stated earlier 5% health which Gravitar has 2.9 million, that's a bare min of 150k damage, not 120k damage. Finally, the backup build requires no special set ups unlike the shadow strike build, which you forgot to add 4 seconds for the restealthing. So if you got down to 8 seconds, cool so that is 12 seconds total, for 1750 DPS.
Also forgot the 1 second charge time on shadow strike so that throws that DPS lower as well.
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It is a bit academic now, but those numbers are certainly not the optimal usage of those devices.
A recharge of a little over 30 seconds is very much possible, and the strongest device I have seen does 200k damage (Ironclad). 6k dps is certainly possible even with a shared cooldown. The change that made all devices immune to cooldown reduction made the sustained dps more acceptable, but the burst damage is still way over the top.
Not even then. Revitalize does 6% reduction when it procs, you need 100% reduction for the device to recharge, so that is 100/6=16,66 procs. It procs for a maximum of once per 2 seconds, so that is 16,66x2=33,33 seconds. Because you will not proc at exactly the 2 second mark you can add a few seconds to that, but even on my 'no recharge reduction at all' melee dps, I managed 37 seconds.
Interesting. I even have CD reduction mods and I'm still not getting that. I wonder if the energy builder activation time is a factor. Which EB do you use?
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Hospitable eyepiece and and a whole Primus Recognition.
Somebody else got a Foxbat AF.
Don't all rush us at once with your offers to trade.
Lolz I know it's not the loot it's the principle of the thing.
P.S. something dropped a bull skull cozzie unlock during fight.
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
Radiance, the default one used for these kinds of builds. It heals once per 0.34 seconds, so it would activate revitalize once per 2.04 seconds.
Wow Cryptic that kinda of gear drop for a special event cosmic is great!
(If you didn't notice, that was drooling in sarcasm, how about you give us worthwhile stuff? Resources? Purple secondaries? Though they drop everywhere as it is...)
Why not give us a reason to farm Takofanes? Special 'heirloom' gear would even suffice.
I might weep if takofanes put up a decent fight like he use to
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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NONONONONONO that is not a good solution:
only reason they are able to be spammed is because people exploit revitalize on the int tree (energy builder reduces cooldown a said % depending on rank). In fact, thats the ONLY way they are being spammed: i admit, i use my backups a lot, but they each have a 13 min cooldown (from high int and cooldown redux gear) but still thats a long time.
the real solution to make everyone (except the exploiters(who should be slapped in the face anyway)) happy is to nerf that spec on the int tree: make it only effect power cooldowns.
if you still persist on the shared cooldown crud: please atleast make then no longer bindable
>>So far I found a bug with accepting team requests that it breaks your chat window and all the other options of channels for chat are pushed through the bottom of the chat window itself.
agreed 100%, you would destroy the whole reason of having multiple at once.. thus destroying any reason to keep farming the event, outside keeping them to sell.
You can use shadow strike with smoke bomb for 40k or slightly more. While smoke bomb is on cooldown, you can still use shadow strike. 20k. If you are using revitalise to cool these attacks then you can use them very frequently
Revitalise does not need to break stealth if you are using radiance.
Yes that is correct. Radiance will be the one for revitalise and it can cool the device to ideally at best 33 secs.
Taking 200k damage as the benchmark is using the highest damage output with comparison to an average output. I am referring to 3k/s maintained damage.
So revitalise cools shadow strike to gives a 20k attack every 8 secs and in every 20 secs for a 40k attack. This is very possible.
A nerf to all devices' cooldown? Now that's what I call a cryptic approach. Let me just redo my entire build now. Perhaps a refund of all my money spent on rank up catalysts and questionites and mods and Gs will be most useful.
*Raise eyebrows, we definitely need more of that. Let's make AoPM not boost any stats.
If this is true and unintentional, please remove this. We don't need this just to nerf the stupid Backup devices.
If this is true and it's intentional, this is the dumbest thing I've seen done since I've played this game, makes no sense, and strips pretty much every single character of a portion of the impact they get from their cooldown reduction. Everyone has some of this.
It's also really boring in comparison to not see a little extra through devices when you improve your cooldown.
Crypt Radion
Kills
Will of Tak - Questionite box
Might/Strength of Tak - Questionite box and potentiality boots + 10% catalyst + bone whistle or maybe the cloud summon
Harbinger of woe - Alchemists Eternal Miricale of Kurma 59 Rec + End on kill blue primary offence
Pickups from treasure chests
Zombie Bone
Pestilent cloud summon
Low power borrowed life invocation
Other - Resistance duster
Guess I'll try some others and see if I can get a Q box from the Harbinger of woe
Just did Nimbus crypt + Nimbus of course
Couldn't find the Will of Tak
Strength of Tak yielded blue secondary (modern) 10% catalyst + Q box
Picked up 2 x Low power mystic shields
Harbinger of woe still giving old stuff - this time an Alchemists Eternal Brace which is similar to the other thing End on kill/59 Rec
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The one who can't shut up formerly known as 4rksakes
About the @handle - it's a long story.
Profound quote.. "I'm not a complete idiot - several parts are missing."
:cool:
Snark never dies.
Any of the three would be good choices
Whole-heartedly agree with this.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
that was before I retconed for the event
@Scrizz :biggrin:
Besides it being easier, making a level playing field for devices is not a bad choice. If this change is to stay, I do hope devices themselves get some love in the near future.
As for cooldown reduction being made less important, it does not need to work on devices to be worth it. If anything it is by far the best option for util items at the moment, and will still be the best or among the best when not working on devices.
You are bringing this further and further. Let the cooldown reduction and revitalise work on devices. Forget about the shared cooldown even. Just lower the damage output of each activation and we can call it a day. Say 1/10 of the 100k or 150k or 200k whatever it is. Your suggestion of a flat change impacts ALL devices and everyone with a device with a substantially long cooldown. Does it solve the inherent problem of the initial high burst then which so many of you are SO concerned about? No.
So lower that spike to something which makes sense and let the devices cool separately and work with revitalise. You address the device and everything else remain status quo.
Let's nerf shadowstrike while we are at it since it has the highest spike power in game possibly double of what any other attacks are able to deal.
That'd be innaccurate, Reaper's Embrace and Sniper Rifle (with Eagle PR) would be the highest spike.
I am not making these changes, I am giving my opinion about already implemented changes on PTS, intended or no. I can see a big advantage to this, if there are plans to add more high performance devices to the game, everyone gets the same boost in effectiveness. Most devices are tied to content, having added content impact balance is not smart, it will continue to be an issue.
Of course the burst damage these particular devices do needs to still be adjusted.
Oh yes I forgot about the eagle PR (gear no longer available). Does reaper embrace hit up to 40k? Not sure about that one.
it hits 20-30k easily, to hit 40k with SStrike it requres you to exploit a bug (Which has been reported)
Nerfing SStrike would be silly stupid, it requires Sneak, which you can see through simply with 200 int (or perception gear and NO int...its really that weak).
Nerfing Ascension? Well you help balance Ranged/Melee in PvP and fix the bug in Hi Pan's special Alert.
Nerfing Revitalize? You fix PERMANENT Active Defense/Offenses from running. And you help fix Backup device abuse, although they really should deal with the issue and nerf their damage.
Nerfing AoPM? You stop people from BREAKING THE GAME.
Pick one.
Lets also nerf...
...
Oh god, that's a huge list. Alright, let's just put it this way: "Let's nerf everything that isn't Two Gun Mojo." Oh, I bet some of you would probably love that. Seriously, this whiny nerf herding is ridiculous. We're talking about:
A support passive which is only broken because the system around it...
An active offense power who's bonuses are practically pathetic in PvE... (this needs to respected nailed, however)
And a spec that requires constant use of the energy builder to get any real mileage out of.
I really, REALLY hope they aren't reading this and taking any of it seriously. Of all the things you COULD complain about, right here, in this thread, Force Cascade isn't on the list, Ebon Ruin isn't on the list, Infernal as a whole is largely absent, Lightning Arc and Gigaspam aren't anywhere to be seen... That's just the attacks, don't even get me started on the various buffs and passives that outperform in one way or another.
And you know what? They could nerf all that in addition to the three things listed, no one would bat an eyelash that they practically trashed the sets they're part of, and be on to nerf herding something like Fireball with UA next. "Chopping block" indeed.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Yes I was actually trying to phrase that right but short because you were more of agreeing to that change intended or not rather than suggesting. Any non-cosmetic devices have impact on content. Even DA gives energy on return from MSA if people have not noticed.
More high performance devices? You mean the uproar from the backups are not enough? Level 60 devices which hits for 100, 150 or 200k in 15 secs. More types of devices that deal 100 k damage which are not backups and hence no shared cooldown? So people rotate through their entire inventory of high performance devices instead of cooling them down? Let me just share another thing. Purple dragon staffs do not share cooldown. I have 3 of these and they do not bind. You can literally have an inventory full of these staffs and fire them one after another.
So lower their burst damage and shared cooldown and no cooldown reduction from revitalise. Nice, a three-fold nerf. Why not just make these devices which people paid for, farmed for just action figures. There problem solved. No one abuses them. No one will want them except for avid collectors.
Well, if we're going down this route, then devices should not be affected by stats or bonuses at all. Why just single-out Int/cooldown modifiers? They shouldn't be affected by critical modifiers, healing bonuses, damage bonuses etc., so that each device is equal in effectiveness between builds. Of course, then all current devices will be severely underpowered, so they'll have to be individually balanced to be useful again, which I'm sure will take some effort.
Or they could just reduce the base damage on the Backup device and not worry about breaking everything else.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Pretty sure we lost seriousness after Wes's comment.
20 to 30k nicely, but does it hit 40k?
Err using smoke bomb with shadowstrike to get 40k is a bug exploit? Or was it intentional? And has it been nerfed?
To be honest, there are many ways to kill a revitalise build. Ask Haneef. If you know how to do it properly, a shadowstrike toon will be able to 1 shot a revitalise build. CD build users also do not use Percept gear and mod as that would compromise cooldown. That is something they gave up.
Noticed I have not actually asked for ascension nerf or aopm nerf? I emphasize "actually" because while I do see issues they bring, I do not cry nerf but I deal with them. I only raise them as comparison to what others are asking to nerf.
This. Signed. Best way I think. And let me summon my Justice League or Avengers Assemble even though I only have 1 of these items and not binded.
The backups should be better than fireflight (not ridiculously but definitely better since they are purple hence 1/10 of current damage to me is far more than reasonable). Fireflight do not share CD with other BM devices. So neither should they.
Still waiting on that parse of your 7k DPS by the way.
Yes agreed. Of course a lot of devices need some serious love either way.
Where is the giant bucket of common sense you two took a drink from?
Seriously, this is all that's needed. People will probably end up having more fun with these devices anyway, if they rework them into regular SK devices with an unlimited timer. The only people to complain will be the ones who SPECIFICALLY used them to break encounters, as everyone else is more likely to be enthused by the fact they have a permanent version of one of the Champions they can fight with.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."