Better to have the hurt now and be done with it, then have it hurt the game for years to come.
Have you not notice the trend of all new power sets and missions? They hit harder, much harder. When did we have a power which hits for 40k damage? When did we ever have cosmics which hits for 80k damage? Don't you see what is ahead for the game? The bar has been raised with On Alert. When did we have FCs which hit for 20k when imbued. The list goes on. I am not saying that the backups be left as they are in live right now. But a double nerf simply puts its effectiveness below a blue device.
Devices are part of a build, period. If you don't like it when devices are used to their full potential or don't like builds having specs tooled around them exclusively, than lobby to get all devices removed and maybe a couple of our max number of powers while you're at it.
Maybe make it so multiple Back Ups can't be used at a time. When one is used the others go on a 15 second cooldown like how multiple AOs and ADs work. The initially sued device goes on a 30 minute cooldown.
Otherwise I'd like my 6 Back Ups unbinded from my main so I can share the love with my other characters.
I am not saying that the backups be left as they are in live right now. But a double nerf simply puts its effectiveness below a blue device.
You're referring to the Fireflight device, right? If you build around reducing its cooldown, then yes, it would probably result in better DPS over a long time at the cost of killing your personal output. But if you just start a fight with a Backup and continue with your regular attacks, that still puts you 100k ahead of a person that doesn't have one. If you graph how much damage the Fireflight device does if used every time it goes off cooldown without Revitalize, how much time does a fight have to last for it to do the 100k+ that the backups do?
As for people using resources to buy them, well if that's the reasoning then you might as well refund people that paid for adventure packs before they became free. I have one bound Ironclad and an unbound Nighthawk. I would benefit from getting Ironclad unbound but I still think it's silly that people didn't expect them to get changed after seeing their damage potential. They saw a build that can do what? Five times what's currently possible by regular means? And tried to get in on it early.
Perhaps they can make them account bound as a compromise for people that bought multiples.
If so, then making them a bit stronger, or even two times stronger for all I care, then normal powers (pets in this case) is the best way to go. Balancing that higher strength and the fact that it is added on top of all other powers, with the cooldown. Don't forget to add the energy penalty for pets. Do the pet specs even work on summon devices? :rolleyes:
But seriously all that is asked is to not make these devices severely overpowered.
You're referring to the Fireflight device, right? If you build around reducing its cooldown, then yes, it would probably result in better DPS over a long time at the cost of killing your personal output. But if you just start a fight with a Backup and continue with your regular attacks, that still puts you 100k ahead of a person that doesn't have one. If you graph how much damage the Fireflight device does if used every time it goes off cooldown without Revitalize, how much time does a fight have to last for it to do the 100k+ that the backups do?
As for people using resources to buy them, well if that's the reasoning then you might as well refund people that paid for adventure packs before they became free. I have one bound Ironclad and an unbound Nighthawk. I would benefit from getting Ironclad unbound but I still think it's silly that people didn't expect them to get changed after seeing their damage potential. They saw a build that can do what? Five times what's currently possible by regular means? And tried to get in on it early.
Perhaps they can make them account bound as a compromise for people that bought multiples.
Sigh, please read through the whole thread. The calculations are given. Fireflight will out DPS a backup with 30 minute cooldown in a fight that matters. 30 secs each for summon. 60 times in that duration of 30 minutes. What is more, fireflight can be used in small fights and big fights. You will not want to use your backup in a petty mob fight. Finally why are we discussing comparing backup to fireflight without the revitalise cooldown because the issue here is backup cannot use the cooldown reduction while fireflight can. Hence my point about it doing less DPS then a blue device.
So if the worry is 5 times the damage potential, then make them share cooldown. Thus only 1 can be used at a time. Emphasize, do not do a double nerf.
In addition adventure packs were around for a pretty long time before they became free. The backups were up for what?
Finally why are we discussing comparing backup to fireflight without the revitalise cooldown because the issue here is backup cannot use the cooldown reduction while fireflight can.
Because revitalize is not the end-all be-all for game balance.
Sigh, please read through the whole thread. The calculations are given. Fireflight will out DPS a backup with 30 minute cooldown in a fight that matters. 30 secs each for summon. 60 times in that duration of 30 minutes. What is more, fireflight can be used in small fights and big fights. You will not want to use your backup in a petty mob fight. Finally why are we discussing comparing backup to fireflight without the revitalise cooldown because the issue here is backup cannot use the cooldown reduction while fireflight can. Hence my point about it doing less DPS then a blue device
Because you're making comparisons about a build that no one would use in 30 minute fights that hardly exist. How about comparing the DPS of a build made for reducing the cooldown of Fireflight and a regular build that uses a Backup?
Because you're making comparisons about a build that no one would use in 30 minute fights that hardly exist. How about comparing the DPS of a build made for reducing the cooldown of Fireflight and a regular build that uses a Backup?
30 minute fights do not exists? Think gravitar and team wipe. If you are not even fighting cosmics with tonnes of HP would there even be a need to use backup devices. As I pointed out, you will not use backup for a normal mob fight.
"How about comparing the DPS of a build made for reducing the cooldown of Fireflight and a regular build that uses a Backup?"
Look that is precisely the point that revitalise should be allowed on the backups.
Why not look at a regular build using Backup and a cooldown build using backup.
Regular build does 100k damage upfront. subsequently, assuming properly specced I can output abt 1500 dmg every .5 sec making 3k damage a second on a range maintain.
If we take a cooldown build using energy builder throughout, assuming the backups gives 100k damage. he can use it once every 30 sec if it works with revitalise. Note, the cooldown build basically cannot do much else besides using energy builder to cooldown the backups.
What does this work out to? 100k dmg every 30 secs. which is 3.33k every sec. Slightly better than a range AoPM build but not significantly better. But let's not forget that the non-CD build also has a 100k dmg.
However, if we do not allow revitalise to cool these back ups. Cool down builds has far far far lower damage output.
That revitalize is not fun for everyone, doesn't mean gamebreaking stuff caused by it should be left alone.
By the way, this is all nothing personal, I just honestly think this is not for the best of the game.
Nah, nothing personal either. I admit revitalise builds are not fun. This will be worsen by imbue nerf. However, if you look at my calculations above you will see that allowing revitalise to work with the backups is really not going to tip the balance much.
It comes to abt 3300 dmg per second probably less because it actually takes more than 30 seconds to cool down the backups. All this while, energy builder has to be used.
Perhaps the issue is the spike in damage it seems to produce. If the devices did a more sustained damage over a long time and they do not vanish in 15 seconds it will be cool too.
Look that is precisely the point that revitalise should be allowed on the backups.
Ok. it's my fault that I nitpicked about Fireflight. I still think that these changes emphasize the idea that devices should support a build, not be the build. I only got into it because you seemed adamant that Fireflight is better than a backup which is a point I disagree with. I still think otherwise but I'm just going to drop it.
As for Revitalize working on the backup, on my second post here in this thread I stated that I was actually ok with Revitalize working. In fact, it wasn't until you said so that I learned that Revitalize no longer works because nisdiddums post doesn't give any indication that anything about it was changed. Using a Revitalize build results in a compromise of DPS via not using your own attacks as much which I was perfectly fine with as long as there was a shared cooldown.
My real remaining issue is when multiple of them are used by multiple people but that's another matter entirely. And in truth, I was more concerned about the way they skewed individual performance in terms of things like rankings or tagging a cosmic so having a team use it in a team setting is of much less importance to me.
Ok. it's my fault that I nitpicked about Fireflight. I still think that these changes emphasize the idea that devices should support a build, not be the build. I only got into it because you seemed adamant that Fireflight is better than a backup which is a point I disagree with. I still think otherwise but I'm just going to drop it.
As for Revitalize working on the backup, on my second post here in this thread I stated that I was actually ok with Revitalize working. In fact, it wasn't until you said so that I learned that Revitalize no longer works because nisdiddums post doesn't give any indication that anything about it was changed. Using a Revitalize build results in a compromise of DPS via not using your own attacks as much which I was perfectly fine with as long as there was a shared cooldown.
Hmm then I guess we both misunderstood, no harm done. I agree as well being able to activate 5 backups and cooling them to about 30 seconds was way overpowered. That gave 500k damage every 30 seconds. Hence I am also in agreement that they have a shared cooldown. However when kaizerin mentioned that even revitalise was made not to work and after testing in PTS confirmed it, then it was a double nerf. And that I did not agree.
Regarding the devices in combination with revitalize.
I still very much disagree.
We all know and have seen revitalize builds to be some of the hardest to kill in the game.
100k damage per backup is when using the lower damage ones, and there is no need for that if the cooldowns are shared. I just tested, ironclad does two >50K annihilate hits, then one >100k unleashed rage.
DPS would be around 6k only from devices. That is more then many dps focused builds can pull off, more then my melee dps on average does against grav, and that 6k is on a build that just never dies. Added to that are the attacks that were used in the first place, what is the dps those unleashed rage attacks in revitalize builds do without imbue?
Either removing the shared cooldown or making revitalize work on the backup devices is gamebreaking. Like they are now on PTS is still very unbalanced, but probably not breaking everything (unless of course the event runs for long enough in the future for most people to get the ironclad backup, then it is possible to kill grav in under a minute, cooldown changes or no).
Regarding the devices in combination with revitalize.
I still very much disagree.
We all know and have seen revitalize builds to be some of the hardest to kill in the game.
100k damage per backup is when using the lower damage ones, and there is no need for that if the cooldowns are shared. I just tested, ironclad does two >50K annihilate hits, then one >100k unleashed rage.
DPS would be around 6k only from devices. That is more then many dps focused builds can pull off, more then my melee dps on average does against grav, and that 6k is on a build that just never dies. Added to that are the attacks that were used in the first place, what is the dps those unleashed rage attacks in revitalize builds do without imbue?
Either removing the shared cooldown or making revitalize work on the backup devices is gamebreaking. Like they are now on PTS is still very unbalanced, but probably not breaking everything.
You should not look at what your melee dps toon does on gravitar because she has damage resistance. it is generally agreed that devices deal from 100k to 150k. There are not tonnes of these devices lying around. I was using a range aopm build as an example. If you wish to look at melee dps. That will be an even better comparison since on a dragonclaw attack, damage can reach more than 10k on crit in 1.5 sec charge.
Now if you wish to talk about revitalise builds being the hardest to kill, we are talking about rank 9 mods in several gears. There are many revitalise builds which I have taught my friends to defeat in 1 shot. Is your concern in PvP? Because it seems so. The backups are not allowed in Hero Games. I am equally fine with it not being allowed in duels. That is because players do not have a huge HP pool to begin to handle the spike.
Which reminds me, shadowstrike allows for abt 20k damage every 4 secs in ideal situation with 40k intermittent damage. I have not even had tried out the new telepathy powers but heard they hit like trucks too.
If indeed they deal 200k damage, and we leave it at 30 minute compared to 30 seconds that means the amount of dps provided by the backup device will drop by a ratio of 60. So rather than not allowing revitalise to work on it, reduce the damage output. Half it. That will still work. But it will still be a respectable device.
No no, I do not care about pvp, I care a bit about overall game balance. That a build is hard to kill is also important for pve balance, wanting that build to have near top of the chart dps is a strange thing to expect. I haven't seen to many builds that were not bothering to block any of grav's bubbles, that is very impressive.
Of course with the freeform system and all real, balance is almost impossible without making all the powers doing exactly the same thing but with a different visual. But still, an effort must be made.
Again, talking about dps when you have a 30 minute recharge damage spike is not going to give a realistic view of the potential issues.
No no, I do not care about pvp, I care a bit about overall game balance. That a build is hard to kill is also important for pve balance, wanting that build to have near top of the chart dps is a strange thing to expect. I haven't seen to many builds that were not bothering to block any of grav's bubbles, that is very impressive.
Of course with the freeform system and all real, balance is almost impossible without making all the powers doing exactly the same thing but with a different visual. But still, an effort must be made.
Again, talking about dps when you have a 30 minute recharge damage spike is not going to give a realistic view of the potential issues.
As mention there is no need for top of chart dps. The damage can be lowered to a reasonable level. As mentioned if it does 200k in the 30 seconds for a new summon it can be halved. However removing the entire mechanic of revitalise cooldown is simply a heavy handed and not-thought-through nerf. There are other ways to not block grav's bubbles. Have you tried dodge stacking? And once again, there are plenty of occasions a revitalise MD build dies to Gravitar's yellow bubbles. I fear you do not understand the intensity of a proper revitalise build and the sacrifices required. Have you seen a dragonclaw build with a CoPD out tank and out dps a revitalise build in gravitar? I use a revitalise build, my friend uses the dragonclaw build. A revitalise build depends on constantly using energy builder which means there is no option to block. Are you aware with the imbue nerf the dps will probably be like 6k in 12 seconds using unleashed rage?
The purpose of a revitalise build is cooldown of powers and devices. Nerfing the backups by removing the cooldown component of revitalise is taking away the purpose that revitalise was built for.
The chains also came from being able to lower their cooldown, not just from being able to summon a bunch of them at the same time. I see no indication that that still can't be done but I suspect that doing so now would result in DPS that's less than dedicated damage dealers. Getting top DPS now, probably means summoning one of these devices then continuing your regular attack pattern.
I do agree with xao that it doesn't fix the problem that arises when multiple people bring them but at least the playing field is a bit more even in terms of damage dealt by an individual.
lol, if you couldn't get 1st without devices, you weren't focused on damage.
I got first plenty of times without needing a device.
lol, if you couldn't get 1st without devices, you weren't focused on damage.
I got first plenty of times without needing a device.
Funny cause I don't have a device bound on Ankylon and I've outranked you a number of times. Please just stop talking like you can pull off the 200k+ points that the people using devices were able to do during the event.
EDIT: Was it 200k or 2000k? Not the point, you can easily see when a person is using a device by how big a gap there was between scores.
Are you aware with the imbue nerf the dps will probably be like 6k in 12 seconds using unleashed rage.
No I did not, that is why I asked, it explains to me why you want these devices to work with revitalize. But sorry, even for that reason I will not agree.
You must have known, when you were making a build that is so dependent on all those powers working in sync, you were taking a big risk.
No, devices are devices, period. They should have nothing to do with your build, because they don't... They're devices.
"I have dried mistletoe on 5 of my toons, I want my stats and specs to affect it so that it does more sexytime to people. It's part of my build! :mad:"
If indeed they deal 200k damage, and we leave it at 30 minute compared to 30 seconds that means the amount of dps provided by the backup device will drop by a ratio of 60. So rather than not allowing revitalise to work on it, reduce the damage output. Half it. That will still work. But it will still be a respectable device.
It's NOT about how much damage they can do over their recharge. It's ALL about how much damage they can do IN A BURST.
I'm constantly head-desking every time I see you post, and frankly I can't understand why you can't see it.
These items are broken on Live. Absolutely, totally, utterly, and every other word of that type you can use to describe them. At least now with this fix, you can use exactly one of them every 30 minutes, to do ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage.
The problem is that you can still do ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage with them. Going into an instance? Absolutely blow apart the boss. Only running Gravitar once in 30 minutes? Do insane damage against her during that one run.
The player can choose to not do anything that 'needs' them to summon the Backup device while it recharges. But once that comes back off of cooldown again, look out - easy mode is in your hands once more.
Frankly these devices just need to be removed. Not looking forward to the kind of problems they'll cause for boss runs in the future. But they won't be, so the players will have access to utter devastation every 30 minutes.
Shrugs and looks as clueless as ever..
Would lowering the new devices to L40 have been not enough or maybe was it too tricky to code?
Nice to hear of more bug fixes btw esp mod fix, and of course obligatory request for more.
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About the @handle - it's a long story.
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It's NOT about how much damage they can do over their recharge. It's ALL about how much damage they can do IN A BURST.
I'm constantly head-desking every time I see you post, and frankly I can't understand why you can't see it.
These items are broken on Live. Absolutely, totally, utterly, and every other word of that type you can use to describe them. At least now with this fix, you can use exactly one of them every 30 minutes, to do ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage.
The problem is that you can still do ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage with them. Going into an instance? Absolutely blow apart the boss.
It's NOT about how much damage they can do over their recharge. It's ALL about how much damage they can do IN A BURST.
I'm constantly head-desking every time I see you post, and frankly I can't understand why you can't see it.
These items are broken on Live. Absolutely, totally, utterly, and every other word of that type you can use to describe them. At least now with this fix, you can use exactly one of them every 30 minutes, to do ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage. Furthermore a proper DPS toon will also be able to blow apart the boss. 3k a sec 33 secs equal to 100k? If these devices are in the hands of a dps toon then in the first 33 secs, they would have dealt 200k damage. In addition the following 33 seconds will be another 100k damage with their own powers. For a CD toon, the first 30 secs will be 100k and then another 100k for every 30 secs. This is about the same. If there is concern that the damage should not match that of a DPS toon then lower then damage.
The problem is that you can still do ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage with them. Going into an instance? Absolutely blow apart the boss. Only running Gravitar once in 30 minutes? Do insane damage against her during that one run.
The player can choose to not do anything that 'needs' them to summon the Backup device while it recharges. But once that comes back off of cooldown again, look out - easy mode is in your hands once more.
Frankly these devices just need to be removed. Not looking forward to the kind of problems they'll cause for boss runs in the future. But they won't be, so the players will have access to utter devastation every 30 minutes.
Please talk with numbers. Precisely no one will want to even use these devices for mob fights that's why we are talking about boss fights. As explain boss fights drags out. The once off damage then translate to 5% damage. 100k or 150k. If we look at any decent dps toons. This 150k can be easily achieved within 50 seconds for 150k or about 33 secs for 100k. On the other hand, the devices will be useless for 30 minutes after the initial use. How is this ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage even going to matter to a boss like Gravitar? In what way is 5% of a boss health going to equate easy mode.
As explain and please if you have read the thread and done the maths which I have spelt out, for a revitalise build to spam the backups every 30 secs or slightly more, it will require a constant use of the energy builder. While other toons use powers to kill mobs. Think about it, if a revitalise toon wishes to use a backup to easy mode the mobs (which in the first place is already easy mode) he will still have to wait 30 seconds which by then other builds would have wiped the mobs. Do not use terms like utter devastation without the relevant numbers, duration.
No, devices are devices, period. They should have nothing to do with your build, because they don't... They're devices.
"I have dried mistletoe on 5 of my toons, I want my stats and specs to affect it so that it does more sexytime to people. It's part of my build! :mad:"
I shall not comment on whether devices are builds or not, that is personal interpretation. However device slots are there. Devices are for us to use. Revitalise, I would assume was meant to interact with devices.
I finally tried out one of these against Gravitar this morning. It did 3 x 40K of damage, or about 5% of her health. Nice, sure, but hardly enough to have a big influence on the battle.
Shadow Strike can do 40K per hit and is not on a 30 min timer.
On outdoor maps a jet can do 40K every 10-15 seconds.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I shall not comment on whether devices are builds or not, that is personal interpretation. However device slots are there. Devices are for us to use. Revitalise, I would assume was meant to interact with devices.
Then device slots need to be locked, and you can only use 5 devices ever, if you put them in your bar, done, they're there permanently until you retcon them out. And you also need to spend advantage points to rank them up like everything else.
that's the definition of something being part of a build for this game, plain and simple, there's no interpretations.
Then device slots need to be locked, and you can only use 5 devices ever, if you put them in your bar, done, they're there permanently until you retcon them out. And you also need to spend advantage points to rank them up like everything else.
that's the definition of something being part of a build for this game, plain and simple, there's no interpretations.
That is not much of a deal really. The main issue here is the portion about device slots and devices there are for players to use and revitalise is designed to interact with devices.
I finally tried out one of these against Gravitar this morning. It did 3 x 40K of damage, or about 5% of her health. Nice, sure, but hardly enough to have a big influence on the battle.
Shadow Strike can do 40K per hit and is not on a 30 min timer.
On outdoor maps a jet can do 40K every 10-15 seconds.
There you go. Facts and figures. Thank you for putting up the numbers. The truth is if all 5 were used at the same time together with revitalise, then that will be overpowered.
Shrugs and looks as clueless as ever..
Would lowering the new devices to L40 have been not enough or maybe was it too tricky to code?
Nice to hear of more bug fixes btw esp mod fix, and of course obligatory request for more.
That would have been a good way of dealing with them although the cooldown will either have to be shorter than the normal blood moon devices or the summons be at least lvl 50 or slightly more since fireflight for example is level 46.
I finally tried out one of these against Gravitar this morning. It did 3 x 40K of damage, or about 5% of her health. Nice, sure, but hardly enough to have a big influence the battle.
Having one player do 120k extra damage in 15 seconds, what do you think will happen with 10 players? And how do you imagine doing 120k damage at the press of a button, without having to make concessions, is in any way balanced?
Like was said before, there is exactly zero reason for not taking these devices, the only difficulty is that the event ran for a short while, so a lot of people do not have one yet. But the event will return at a later date, waiting for that to have the game balance be broken once more (that is assuming the devices are not breaking it on PTS now, which is open for debate), and having to adjust them once again is not a good idea.
Having one player do 120k extra damage in 15 seconds, what do you think will happen with 10 players? And how do you imagine doing 120k damage at the press of a button, without having to make concessions, is in any way balanced?
Like was said before, there is exactly zero reason for not taking these devices, the only difficulty is that the event ran for a short while, so a lot of people do not have one yet. But the event will return at a later date, waiting for that to have the game balance be broken once more (that is assuming the devices are not breaking it on PTS now, which is open for debate), and having to adjust them once again is not a good idea.
Hmmm we are back to the same point. Having it not cooldown on revitalise still allows for its first use. And this will benefit all the dps toons who then continues to use their 3k/s powers. I spelt it out in the calculations. The cooldown with revitalise only benefits those design to cooldown the devices by spamming their EB. This will then bring up their dps to a level comparable in exchange of them spamming their EB. And so as you say there is no reason not to take these devices. They already benefit none CD builds straight out of the box. It needs a CD build to then maximise them for damage output. They in a way just barely compensate for the CD build lack of offense.
What is needed, is that the damage needs to be reduced to 15k per activation or so.
That in itself would solve the biggest balance issues, I still do not like the idea of devices interacting with the rest of the build, but that needs to be given more attention, these devices need a quick and dirty nerf.
edit: This does not mean the changes already made could be reverted, at the very least the shared cooldown needs to stay, that will break it all the same, 6x15k is still way to much.
What is needed, is that the damage needs to be reduced to 15k per activation or so.
That in itself would solve the biggest balance issues, I still do not like the idea of devices interacting with the rest of the build, but that needs to be given more attention, these devices need a quick and dirty nerf.
This sounds reasonable. Or even to 8-10k per application if they remove the shared cooldown and revitalise limitation. 40 to 50 k dmg in 30 seconds I think is quite acceptable is it not compared to 90k if we look at 3k/s dps? I personally think it will be nice to be able to summon the whole team like a justice league or avengers assemble sort of thing. I prefer to consider for theme purpose that the toon is a time manipulator,pulling forth the heroes from different time zones to fight. Makes him hard to hit as well because of the time warping about him.
Oh, btw are there 6 of these devices? I have not really been farming them not been seeing them around enough to know. So which are the heroes they come in?
Guys I am not trying to make an unfounded case here. The numbers do tell a story. I agree that the devices need nerfing. However, the shared cooldown and not interacting with revitalise is too big a nerf.
Oh, btw are there 6 of these devices? I have not really been farming them not been seeing them around enough to know. So which are the heroes they come in?
FWIW, I'd gladly accept a damage nerf to the Backups in exchange for being able to use them more often (i.e., longer duration and possibly shorter cooldown). The game already has summoning devices in it (Destroid Gun Pod, Summon a Purple Gang War, Summon Nephilim Swarm, etc.) that let you bring in higher-level backup for a time, followed by a cooldown before you can do it again; I'd like to see the Backup devices reworked along those lines. Say, the Backup's level is five (or ten?) higher than whatever your current level is, and the backup stays around for 90 seconds followed by a ten-minute cooldown.
Admittedly, my own motivation is more RP-oriented and less gameplay-oriented (I have a toon whose concept is a Robin pastiche, and I'd like to be able to summon Nighthawk a bit more often than 15 seconds out of every half hour -- although being able to have him summoned continuously would be overdoing it); but it would tame the devices' current overkill factor while still leaving them quite valuable.
I was testing this out with Revitalize earlier and noticed it wasn't affecting any other devices I had on cooldown at the time.
Did they just put a blanket stop on Revitalize working for all devices to "fix" the Backups?
I didn't have much time to dig further, but that's what it looked like at a glance.
I was testing this out with Revitalize earlier and noticed it wasn't affecting any other devices I had on cooldown at the time.
Did they just put a blanket stop on Revitalize working for all devices to "fix" the Backups?
I didn't have much time to dig further, but that's what it looked like at a glance.
Wow, excellent point. I just tested and verified that. Cooldown bonuses (including Int, Mods, and Revitalize) seem to no longer have affect on any devices at all on PTS.
I hope this is unintended, as it's a huge change. I think players should expect full respecs on all toons and the ability to freely swap out +Cooldown mods on all toons if this goes through.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Wow, excellent point. I just tested and verified that. Cooldown bonuses (including Int, Mods, and Revitalize) seem to no longer have affect on any devices at all.
I hope this is unintended, as it's a huge change. I think players should expect full respecs on all toons and the ability to freely swap out +Cooldown mods on all toons if this goes through.
Hm... I was afraid of that. This isn't a good thing at all, as there are plenty of legitimate and non-gamebreaking reasons most devices should work with Revitalize. I hope this is just a bug or an oversight.
(For the record, I do support the shared cooldown on those Backups. I parsed a fight with one vs. Mega-T. The device did 7.9k dps in less than 15 seconds.
I don't know how anyone could think this is not completely broken. But I think the double nerf is not a great way to handle it. The best solution I can see is simply changing the level to 46 or 40 and putting it in line with other summons in the game.)
I finally tried out one of these against Gravitar this morning. It did 3 x 40K of damage, or about 5% of her health. Nice, sure, but hardly enough to have a big influence on the battle.
Shadow Strike can do 40K per hit and is not on a 30 min timer.
On outdoor maps a jet can do 40K every 10-15 seconds.
How can shadow strike do 40k per hit? You would need some insane debuffing since damage bonuses do not affect shadow strike, or it's not suppose to, and it doesn't get critical bonus.
On that note, comparing Shadow Strike to someone who has 5 of those devices, they weren't as rare as people make them out to be, at 200k damage bursts every 33 seconds (quit trying to say it wasn't possible, there were people doing it and purposely locking people out of the Gravitar fight) that would be 6666 DPS per backup summoned every roughly 30 seconds. Or in basic terms, that was 33333 DPS.
For comparison, my test with Shadow Strike, which seems to be getting the melee damage role bonus, though it shouldn't be if I understood correctly, with debuffing applied was getting close to 26k damage. And for me it recharges in 25 seconds. That's 1040 DPS. If you can hit 40k damage shadow strikes, that's only 1600 DPS and that's provided all you do is shadow strike and nothing else.
Trying to equate 40k damage to to 200k damage in the same time period as equivalent is being a tad silly. I hit around 2000 DPS normally doing my tank thing, even if you do hit 40k shadow strikes, which I don't see as possible atm, but I won't discredit, you are not hitting even my low level DPS mark if all you are doing is shadow striking. These devices on the other hand just one of them with as the system currently is is hitting 6666 DPS, and if you are using 5 of them every 30 seconds which a couple of people did, that was over 30k DPS in 30 seconds.
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Yes it would require a full review, but until then, having devices with this big a potential impact on the game is unwanted.
It is too late, they have been introduced and taking them away to such a large extent will therefore have a big impact on the players.
Better to have the hurt now and be done with it, then have it hurt the game for years to come.
Have you not notice the trend of all new power sets and missions? They hit harder, much harder. When did we have a power which hits for 40k damage? When did we ever have cosmics which hits for 80k damage? Don't you see what is ahead for the game? The bar has been raised with On Alert. When did we have FCs which hit for 20k when imbued. The list goes on. I am not saying that the backups be left as they are in live right now. But a double nerf simply puts its effectiveness below a blue device.
Maybe make it so multiple Back Ups can't be used at a time. When one is used the others go on a 15 second cooldown like how multiple AOs and ADs work. The initially sued device goes on a 30 minute cooldown.
Otherwise I'd like my 6 Back Ups unbinded from my main so I can share the love with my other characters.
You're referring to the Fireflight device, right? If you build around reducing its cooldown, then yes, it would probably result in better DPS over a long time at the cost of killing your personal output. But if you just start a fight with a Backup and continue with your regular attacks, that still puts you 100k ahead of a person that doesn't have one. If you graph how much damage the Fireflight device does if used every time it goes off cooldown without Revitalize, how much time does a fight have to last for it to do the 100k+ that the backups do?
As for people using resources to buy them, well if that's the reasoning then you might as well refund people that paid for adventure packs before they became free. I have one bound Ironclad and an unbound Nighthawk. I would benefit from getting Ironclad unbound but I still think it's silly that people didn't expect them to get changed after seeing their damage potential. They saw a build that can do what? Five times what's currently possible by regular means? And tried to get in on it early.
Perhaps they can make them account bound as a compromise for people that bought multiples.
If so, then making them a bit stronger, or even two times stronger for all I care, then normal powers (pets in this case) is the best way to go. Balancing that higher strength and the fact that it is added on top of all other powers, with the cooldown. Don't forget to add the energy penalty for pets. Do the pet specs even work on summon devices? :rolleyes:
But seriously all that is asked is to not make these devices severely overpowered.
Sigh, please read through the whole thread. The calculations are given. Fireflight will out DPS a backup with 30 minute cooldown in a fight that matters. 30 secs each for summon. 60 times in that duration of 30 minutes. What is more, fireflight can be used in small fights and big fights. You will not want to use your backup in a petty mob fight. Finally why are we discussing comparing backup to fireflight without the revitalise cooldown because the issue here is backup cannot use the cooldown reduction while fireflight can. Hence my point about it doing less DPS then a blue device.
So if the worry is 5 times the damage potential, then make them share cooldown. Thus only 1 can be used at a time. Emphasize, do not do a double nerf.
In addition adventure packs were around for a pretty long time before they became free. The backups were up for what?
Because revitalize is not the end-all be-all for game balance.
Sigh. Since it is not the be all then leave it to work on the backups.
Revitalise are meant for builds designed around cooldowns. If you do not wish to use it, don't. You do not need to call nerf for others' build.
Because you're making comparisons about a build that no one would use in 30 minute fights that hardly exist. How about comparing the DPS of a build made for reducing the cooldown of Fireflight and a regular build that uses a Backup?
That revitalize is not fun for everyone, doesn't mean gamebreaking stuff caused by it should be left alone.
By the way, this is all nothing personal, I just honestly think this is not for the best of the game.
30 minute fights do not exists? Think gravitar and team wipe. If you are not even fighting cosmics with tonnes of HP would there even be a need to use backup devices. As I pointed out, you will not use backup for a normal mob fight.
"How about comparing the DPS of a build made for reducing the cooldown of Fireflight and a regular build that uses a Backup?"
Look that is precisely the point that revitalise should be allowed on the backups.
Why not look at a regular build using Backup and a cooldown build using backup.
Regular build does 100k damage upfront. subsequently, assuming properly specced I can output abt 1500 dmg every .5 sec making 3k damage a second on a range maintain.
If we take a cooldown build using energy builder throughout, assuming the backups gives 100k damage. he can use it once every 30 sec if it works with revitalise. Note, the cooldown build basically cannot do much else besides using energy builder to cooldown the backups.
What does this work out to? 100k dmg every 30 secs. which is 3.33k every sec. Slightly better than a range AoPM build but not significantly better. But let's not forget that the non-CD build also has a 100k dmg.
However, if we do not allow revitalise to cool these back ups. Cool down builds has far far far lower damage output.
Nah, nothing personal either. I admit revitalise builds are not fun. This will be worsen by imbue nerf. However, if you look at my calculations above you will see that allowing revitalise to work with the backups is really not going to tip the balance much.
It comes to abt 3300 dmg per second probably less because it actually takes more than 30 seconds to cool down the backups. All this while, energy builder has to be used.
Perhaps the issue is the spike in damage it seems to produce. If the devices did a more sustained damage over a long time and they do not vanish in 15 seconds it will be cool too.
Ok. it's my fault that I nitpicked about Fireflight. I still think that these changes emphasize the idea that devices should support a build, not be the build. I only got into it because you seemed adamant that Fireflight is better than a backup which is a point I disagree with. I still think otherwise but I'm just going to drop it.
As for Revitalize working on the backup, on my second post here in this thread I stated that I was actually ok with Revitalize working. In fact, it wasn't until you said so that I learned that Revitalize no longer works because nisdiddums post doesn't give any indication that anything about it was changed. Using a Revitalize build results in a compromise of DPS via not using your own attacks as much which I was perfectly fine with as long as there was a shared cooldown.
My real remaining issue is when multiple of them are used by multiple people but that's another matter entirely. And in truth, I was more concerned about the way they skewed individual performance in terms of things like rankings or tagging a cosmic so having a team use it in a team setting is of much less importance to me.
Hmm then I guess we both misunderstood, no harm done. I agree as well being able to activate 5 backups and cooling them to about 30 seconds was way overpowered. That gave 500k damage every 30 seconds. Hence I am also in agreement that they have a shared cooldown. However when kaizerin mentioned that even revitalise was made not to work and after testing in PTS confirmed it, then it was a double nerf. And that I did not agree.
I still very much disagree.
We all know and have seen revitalize builds to be some of the hardest to kill in the game.
100k damage per backup is when using the lower damage ones, and there is no need for that if the cooldowns are shared. I just tested, ironclad does two >50K annihilate hits, then one >100k unleashed rage.
DPS would be around 6k only from devices. That is more then many dps focused builds can pull off, more then my melee dps on average does against grav, and that 6k is on a build that just never dies. Added to that are the attacks that were used in the first place, what is the dps those unleashed rage attacks in revitalize builds do without imbue?
Either removing the shared cooldown or making revitalize work on the backup devices is gamebreaking. Like they are now on PTS is still very unbalanced, but probably not breaking everything (unless of course the event runs for long enough in the future for most people to get the ironclad backup, then it is possible to kill grav in under a minute, cooldown changes or no).
You should not look at what your melee dps toon does on gravitar because she has damage resistance. it is generally agreed that devices deal from 100k to 150k. There are not tonnes of these devices lying around. I was using a range aopm build as an example. If you wish to look at melee dps. That will be an even better comparison since on a dragonclaw attack, damage can reach more than 10k on crit in 1.5 sec charge.
Now if you wish to talk about revitalise builds being the hardest to kill, we are talking about rank 9 mods in several gears. There are many revitalise builds which I have taught my friends to defeat in 1 shot. Is your concern in PvP? Because it seems so. The backups are not allowed in Hero Games. I am equally fine with it not being allowed in duels. That is because players do not have a huge HP pool to begin to handle the spike.
Which reminds me, shadowstrike allows for abt 20k damage every 4 secs in ideal situation with 40k intermittent damage. I have not even had tried out the new telepathy powers but heard they hit like trucks too.
If indeed they deal 200k damage, and we leave it at 30 minute compared to 30 seconds that means the amount of dps provided by the backup device will drop by a ratio of 60. So rather than not allowing revitalise to work on it, reduce the damage output. Half it. That will still work. But it will still be a respectable device.
No no, I do not care about pvp, I care a bit about overall game balance. That a build is hard to kill is also important for pve balance, wanting that build to have near top of the chart dps is a strange thing to expect. I haven't seen to many builds that were not bothering to block any of grav's bubbles, that is very impressive.
Of course with the freeform system and all real, balance is almost impossible without making all the powers doing exactly the same thing but with a different visual. But still, an effort must be made.
Again, talking about dps when you have a 30 minute recharge damage spike is not going to give a realistic view of the potential issues.
As mention there is no need for top of chart dps. The damage can be lowered to a reasonable level. As mentioned if it does 200k in the 30 seconds for a new summon it can be halved. However removing the entire mechanic of revitalise cooldown is simply a heavy handed and not-thought-through nerf. There are other ways to not block grav's bubbles. Have you tried dodge stacking? And once again, there are plenty of occasions a revitalise MD build dies to Gravitar's yellow bubbles. I fear you do not understand the intensity of a proper revitalise build and the sacrifices required. Have you seen a dragonclaw build with a CoPD out tank and out dps a revitalise build in gravitar? I use a revitalise build, my friend uses the dragonclaw build. A revitalise build depends on constantly using energy builder which means there is no option to block. Are you aware with the imbue nerf the dps will probably be like 6k in 12 seconds using unleashed rage?
The purpose of a revitalise build is cooldown of powers and devices. Nerfing the backups by removing the cooldown component of revitalise is taking away the purpose that revitalise was built for.
lol, if you couldn't get 1st without devices, you weren't focused on damage.
I got first plenty of times without needing a device.
@Scrizz :biggrin:
Funny cause I don't have a device bound on Ankylon and I've outranked you a number of times. Please just stop talking like you can pull off the 200k+ points that the people using devices were able to do during the event.
EDIT: Was it 200k or 2000k? Not the point, you can easily see when a person is using a device by how big a gap there was between scores.
No I did not, that is why I asked, it explains to me why you want these devices to work with revitalize. But sorry, even for that reason I will not agree.
You must have known, when you were making a build that is so dependent on all those powers working in sync, you were taking a big risk.
No, devices are devices, period. They should have nothing to do with your build, because they don't... They're devices.
"I have dried mistletoe on 5 of my toons, I want my stats and specs to affect it so that it does more sexytime to people. It's part of my build! :mad:"
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It's NOT about how much damage they can do over their recharge. It's ALL about how much damage they can do IN A BURST.
I'm constantly head-desking every time I see you post, and frankly I can't understand why you can't see it.
These items are broken on Live. Absolutely, totally, utterly, and every other word of that type you can use to describe them. At least now with this fix, you can use exactly one of them every 30 minutes, to do ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage.
The problem is that you can still do ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage with them. Going into an instance? Absolutely blow apart the boss. Only running Gravitar once in 30 minutes? Do insane damage against her during that one run.
The player can choose to not do anything that 'needs' them to summon the Backup device while it recharges. But once that comes back off of cooldown again, look out - easy mode is in your hands once more.
Frankly these devices just need to be removed. Not looking forward to the kind of problems they'll cause for boss runs in the future. But they won't be, so the players will have access to utter devastation every 30 minutes.
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Would lowering the new devices to L40 have been not enough or maybe was it too tricky to code?
Nice to hear of more bug fixes btw esp mod fix, and of course obligatory request for more.
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Aw no, do not remove them, just reduce the damage they do. I looks so nice to have ironclad or nighthawk come help me once in a while.
(btw, I am not using them now, just because I don't like them stealing all my kills)
Wow...I didnt realise they got alert burst buffed... Thats scary. O_O!
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Please talk with numbers. Precisely no one will want to even use these devices for mob fights that's why we are talking about boss fights. As explain boss fights drags out. The once off damage then translate to 5% damage. 100k or 150k. If we look at any decent dps toons. This 150k can be easily achieved within 50 seconds for 150k or about 33 secs for 100k. On the other hand, the devices will be useless for 30 minutes after the initial use. How is this ABSOLUTELY INSANE burst damage even going to matter to a boss like Gravitar? In what way is 5% of a boss health going to equate easy mode.
As explain and please if you have read the thread and done the maths which I have spelt out, for a revitalise build to spam the backups every 30 secs or slightly more, it will require a constant use of the energy builder. While other toons use powers to kill mobs. Think about it, if a revitalise toon wishes to use a backup to easy mode the mobs (which in the first place is already easy mode) he will still have to wait 30 seconds which by then other builds would have wiped the mobs. Do not use terms like utter devastation without the relevant numbers, duration.
I shall not comment on whether devices are builds or not, that is personal interpretation. However device slots are there. Devices are for us to use. Revitalise, I would assume was meant to interact with devices.
I finally tried out one of these against Gravitar this morning. It did 3 x 40K of damage, or about 5% of her health. Nice, sure, but hardly enough to have a big influence on the battle.
Shadow Strike can do 40K per hit and is not on a 30 min timer.
On outdoor maps a jet can do 40K every 10-15 seconds.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Then device slots need to be locked, and you can only use 5 devices ever, if you put them in your bar, done, they're there permanently until you retcon them out. And you also need to spend advantage points to rank them up like everything else.
that's the definition of something being part of a build for this game, plain and simple, there's no interpretations.
Snark never dies.
That is not much of a deal really. The main issue here is the portion about device slots and devices there are for players to use and revitalise is designed to interact with devices.
There you go. Facts and figures. Thank you for putting up the numbers. The truth is if all 5 were used at the same time together with revitalise, then that will be overpowered.
To be honest, I am not using any either. I have one that is not bounded in my shared account bank.
That would have been a good way of dealing with them although the cooldown will either have to be shorter than the normal blood moon devices or the summons be at least lvl 50 or slightly more since fireflight for example is level 46.
Having one player do 120k extra damage in 15 seconds, what do you think will happen with 10 players? And how do you imagine doing 120k damage at the press of a button, without having to make concessions, is in any way balanced?
Like was said before, there is exactly zero reason for not taking these devices, the only difficulty is that the event ran for a short while, so a lot of people do not have one yet. But the event will return at a later date, waiting for that to have the game balance be broken once more (that is assuming the devices are not breaking it on PTS now, which is open for debate), and having to adjust them once again is not a good idea.
And I bet that 120k was not using Ironclad.
Hmmm we are back to the same point. Having it not cooldown on revitalise still allows for its first use. And this will benefit all the dps toons who then continues to use their 3k/s powers. I spelt it out in the calculations. The cooldown with revitalise only benefits those design to cooldown the devices by spamming their EB. This will then bring up their dps to a level comparable in exchange of them spamming their EB. And so as you say there is no reason not to take these devices. They already benefit none CD builds straight out of the box. It needs a CD build to then maximise them for damage output. They in a way just barely compensate for the CD build lack of offense.
What is needed, is that the damage needs to be reduced to 15k per activation or so.
That in itself would solve the biggest balance issues, I still do not like the idea of devices interacting with the rest of the build, but that needs to be given more attention, these devices need a quick and dirty nerf.
edit: This does not mean the changes already made could be reverted, at the very least the shared cooldown needs to stay, that will break it all the same, 6x15k is still way to much.
This sounds reasonable. Or even to 8-10k per application if they remove the shared cooldown and revitalise limitation. 40 to 50 k dmg in 30 seconds I think is quite acceptable is it not compared to 90k if we look at 3k/s dps? I personally think it will be nice to be able to summon the whole team like a justice league or avengers assemble sort of thing. I prefer to consider for theme purpose that the toon is a time manipulator,pulling forth the heroes from different time zones to fight. Makes him hard to hit as well because of the time warping about him.
Oh, btw are there 6 of these devices? I have not really been farming them not been seeing them around enough to know. So which are the heroes they come in?
Guys I am not trying to make an unfounded case here. The numbers do tell a story. I agree that the devices need nerfing. However, the shared cooldown and not interacting with revitalise is too big a nerf.
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Admittedly, my own motivation is more RP-oriented and less gameplay-oriented (I have a toon whose concept is a Robin pastiche, and I'd like to be able to summon Nighthawk a bit more often than 15 seconds out of every half hour -- although being able to have him summoned continuously would be overdoing it); but it would tame the devices' current overkill factor while still leaving them quite valuable.
Did they just put a blanket stop on Revitalize working for all devices to "fix" the Backups?
I didn't have much time to dig further, but that's what it looked like at a glance.
Wow, excellent point. I just tested and verified that. Cooldown bonuses (including Int, Mods, and Revitalize) seem to no longer have affect on any devices at all on PTS.
I hope this is unintended, as it's a huge change. I think players should expect full respecs on all toons and the ability to freely swap out +Cooldown mods on all toons if this goes through.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Now they just need to balance all the devices.
(For the record, I do support the shared cooldown on those Backups. I parsed a fight with one vs. Mega-T. The device did 7.9k dps in less than 15 seconds.
I don't know how anyone could think this is not completely broken. But I think the double nerf is not a great way to handle it. The best solution I can see is simply changing the level to 46 or 40 and putting it in line with other summons in the game.)
I dunno, it seems like a pretty ugly bag of worms to go back and apply a big retroactive change to all devices in the game like this.
I think I would prefer they just remove all the Backup devices, if this is their "fix".
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
How can shadow strike do 40k per hit? You would need some insane debuffing since damage bonuses do not affect shadow strike, or it's not suppose to, and it doesn't get critical bonus.
On that note, comparing Shadow Strike to someone who has 5 of those devices, they weren't as rare as people make them out to be, at 200k damage bursts every 33 seconds (quit trying to say it wasn't possible, there were people doing it and purposely locking people out of the Gravitar fight) that would be 6666 DPS per backup summoned every roughly 30 seconds. Or in basic terms, that was 33333 DPS.
For comparison, my test with Shadow Strike, which seems to be getting the melee damage role bonus, though it shouldn't be if I understood correctly, with debuffing applied was getting close to 26k damage. And for me it recharges in 25 seconds. That's 1040 DPS. If you can hit 40k damage shadow strikes, that's only 1600 DPS and that's provided all you do is shadow strike and nothing else.
Trying to equate 40k damage to to 200k damage in the same time period as equivalent is being a tad silly. I hit around 2000 DPS normally doing my tank thing, even if you do hit 40k shadow strikes, which I don't see as possible atm, but I won't discredit, you are not hitting even my low level DPS mark if all you are doing is shadow striking. These devices on the other hand just one of them with as the system currently is is hitting 6666 DPS, and if you are using 5 of them every 30 seconds which a couple of people did, that was over 30k DPS in 30 seconds.
Also, 5% of Gravitar's health is nearly 150k.
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