Thanks. I often forget to point out how cheap Cryptic is.
I mean, hey, why pay up to have proper moderation and keep your paying costumers in the game when you can risk loosing them by setting up an automated system you don't have to pay a salary to in order for it to do its job? Instant bans. Its brilliant!
I have already told you how to get the wheel of change spinning.
So what if it hurts a few people's feelings? This game has PvP, which, like the chat ban system, is also "working as intended," conveniently accessible through the UI, and that hurts people's feelings every day.
If you want something fixed, you may need to evaluate how far you will push the envelope without breaking ToS.
Thanks. I often forget to point out how cheap Cryptic is.
I mean, hey, why pay up to have proper moderation and keep your paying costumers in the game when you can risk loosing them by setting up an automated system you don't have to pay a salary to in order for it to do its job? Instant bans. Its brilliant!
Yep... anyone who thinks that not paying for GM's to do this was the primary motivation to code this crap into their game engine does not really understand business.
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Brou, I'm sorry. I just don't have it in me to become the very thing I'm fighting against. I will not intentionally chat-ban ANYONE to get revenge on "Cryptic World".
If that's what it takes to actually solve the problem then I guess it'll never get solved, but I'll be damned before I become a hypocritical bully.
If you want something fixed, you may need to evaluate how far you will push the envelope without breaking ToS.
Except what you're suggesting does break the ToS. Intentionally griefing new players and cryptic staff is about as Against the ToS as it gets. The feature may be "working as intended" for the purposes of silencing spammers, but that doesn't change that its use against innocent players is abuse.
You're championing the wrong way to handle things Brou. It doesn't matter how "in the right" you feel like you are on this. You're advocating abusing players to stop people from abusing players. It's wrong and if you can't see that maybe you should step back.
Except what you're suggesting does break the ToS. Intentionally griefing new players and cryptic staff is about as Against the ToS as it gets. The feature may be "working as intended" for the purposes of silencing spammers, but that doesn't change that its use against innocent players is abuse.
You're championing the wrong way to handle things Brou. It doesn't matter how "in the right" you feel like you are on this. You're advocating abusing players to stop people from abusing players. It's wrong and if you can't see that maybe you should step back.
I don't believe I am right.
It's all a logical conclusion.
1) Innocent player is being chat banned over and over by an ingame feature in the chat system.
2) When confronting the top authority of that service or product, fully informing them of the circumstances around the ban, the announcement is that the use of this feature in such a manner is "working as intended."
3) 2 is an extremely important part of the logic.As long as Cryptic Studios does not change its mind, it is within our power and within normal parameters of gameplay to carry out the usage of report spam as referenced in 1.Therefore, perform to your content 1 until Cryptic says to stop, or removes the ability to perform 1.
Do you think I am trying to spur people to breaking rules, O?
it's been said previously by Stormshade that using the feature in such a manor is a violation. So yes, by advocating using the feature to make a point, you're advocating breaking the rules.
it's been said previously by Stormshade that using the feature in such a manner is a violation. So yes, by advocating using the feature to make a point, you're advocating breaking the rules.
And where is that post?
EDIT: Actually, forget it. I know it's not written by him even if you do find it.
it's been said previously by Stormshade that using the feature in such a manor is a violation.
So yes, by advocating using the feature to make a point, you're advocating breaking the rules.
Originally posted by Stormshade
Folks, if you are found abusing this system, using to chat ban people who should not be, action may be taken against your account. In other words, if we catch you griefing using this tool, it will be bad for you.
At least they penalize them for it,but we need something to watch them,24/7,and evaluate the post they reported,and post by the poster in the past minute or so,in which if it categorizes as unneeded,ie:same sentence over again,it counts as spam,if not,the report spam is void and doesn't go through.
Considering that it is possible to create multiple free silver accounts using webmail systems that provides potentially an endless number of email accounts...
...and also considering that Cryptic's GM support is pathetic, and that they are not obliged to inform us the details of any actions made against abusers (if at all)...
Stormshade's "warning" or "reassurance" has no ground to stand on. It's not that I advocate abuse of the system to get a point across, just that expecting to be penalized for it in any worthwhile manner is kind of laughable since any cunning abuser isn't stupid enough to use their main account to do it.
Folks, if you are found abusing this system, using to chat ban people who should not be, action may be taken against your account. In other words, if we catch you griefing using this tool, it will be bad for you.
Thanks,
Stormshade
And since we have been told that banning people who have done nothing for which they should be banned is, "Working as intended," it is physically impossible to run afoul of the point highlighted in the quote of SS above.
You see, according to Cryptic there is no such thing as someone, "who should not be," chat banned.
EDIT: But I do oppose abusing the system to make a point.
So what if it hurts a few people's feelings? This game has PvP, which, like the chat ban system, is also "working as intended," conveniently accessible through the UI, and that hurts people's feelings every day.
Just to address this comment, I don't think this is a fair comparison. Even with the constant raging and injury of personal pride in PvP, it is nothing compared to being silenced for 24 hours straight. It is no justification at all to exploiting the chat-ban in anyway as a form of protest, no matter how well-meaning the intention is.
I doubt you'd enjoy having your full day ruined in this manner. If you think it's acceptable and it's for a greater cause, more power to you. Just don't expect others to share that mindset.
In addition to what jennymachx and ashensnow state above, there are also the issues of:
1) The ignore function also counts toward chat bans (and you don't need ANY "justifiable" reason to "ignore" someone).
2) There is no way that I can think of that they could conclusively determine (even if Cryptic would bother, which I believe they wouldn't) that someone actually abused the system.
If a bunch of people placed someone that was RPing in a highly populated area in Ren Center on ignore because they didn't like the constant stream of local chat flooding their window. How do you establish that that is abuse? Which of all those people abused the system? And how exactly does the RPer deserve to get chat-banned just from the simple fact that a bunch of people rightfully opted not the have the RP'ers chat flooding their chat window?
Neither party is wrong in the above example. Yet the system as it currently functions does not take that scenario into account or a bunch of other likely scenarios that could get someone chat-banned with no discernible "guilty" party to "punish".
Which by the way, (punishment) solves NOTHING. It will not remove the victim's chat-ban. It will NOT give the affected players the time back that they have lost. It will not fix a destroyed costume contest because the judge got chat-banned and magically bring all the people back to that place so they can finally have their contest. It does absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G.
So someone got "punished", so what? What are we supposed to do then? "We got our pound of meat, YAAAYYYYY!!! This TOTALLY sets everything right, YES!!!" *jumps of joy with a fist up in the air*
EDIT/PS: And even if someone willfully opts to abuse the system there could still be ways to do it without discernible bad intent being linked back to them. They could just randomly ignore people all day long, and maybe coordinate it with other people through some external system chat system like messenger and have a bunch of people chat-ban someone without there being any trace in the game's chat system that any wrong doing went on.
The entire notion that Cryptic is somehow this parent figure that will take care of it if the system somehow gets abused is completely pointless and nothing but useless platitudes.
With all the soapboxing about breaking the ToS going on I'm VERY surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet.
Yeah getting chatbanned sucks.
Sucks more that Cryptic isn't willing to give this system the serious overhaul it needs.
Sucks even worse that people would actually think about stooping to such low levels because they feel their voice isn't being heard.
Well your voice was heard, and subsequently ignored.
There's nothing else we can do at this point that will be effective short of maybe sending emails to PWE corporate and hoping that if we pile up enough crap on them that it will roll back downhill to Cryptic.
In-game demonstrations and most especially forum raging won't get anything done.
There's nothing else we can do at this point that will be effective short of maybe sending emails to PWE corporate and hoping that if we pile up enough crap on them that it will roll back downhill to Cryptic.
Which I have been--or at least sending out PWE tickets on their website. Don't stop discussing, don't stop submitting tickets, boycott the Z-Store, and be incessant in these things.
If we were to stop, I feel like I would have given up on the subject. I refuse to do that. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Even if this doesn't accomplish anything other than raising awareness, I'll feel that I contributed positively to making this a good gaming experience to others in the future.
Oh, yes, by all means, continue protesting in the forums. Send in a ticket every time you get an unfair chat ban - and I mean every time, and send a followup ticket if there's no response, even if your 24 hours are up. Keep on them about this.
But do not adopt the tactics of the enemy. That's how they win.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
In-game demonstrations *snip* won't get anything done.
I disagree with this part.
I'm not saying that's its alright or that it isn't unfair for the rest of the playerbase and I'm not condoning it. I'm not even saying that it wouldn't have negative effects for the game itself (a bunch of people leaving because they suddenly got chat-banned and don't know what's going on would be detrimental to the game, at least on the short run).
But I feel pretty secure on the believe that a bunch of people suddenly getting mass chat-banned every other day of the week would get the ball rolling faster and with a higher degree of certainty* than ANYTHING else that we can possibly do about this issue.
*I'm not even sure complaining to PWE about it would do much good unless we somehow managed to gather a MASSIVE amount of people to pitch in and right some really compelling letters on the matter. And even then its just sit back and hope that something gets done.
EDIT/PS: Just so we're clear and anyone gets any ideas, don't anyone start mass chat-banning people, though.
And since we have been told that banning people who have done nothing for which they should be banned is, "Working as intended," it is physically impossible to run afoul of the point highlighted in the quote of SS above.
You see, according to Cryptic there is no such thing as someone, "who should not be," chat banned.
EDIT: But I do oppose abusing the system to make a point.
Unless the user of all those different email address is also going to change there IP address I would imagine they could be tracked down.
There's also the possibility that the client tags the user so even though logging in using different details if they use the same client to do so they may be grouped together.
Actually, their proposed per-game solution could actually solve it if they did it right. In theory, they could simply leave the system in place, and set it so that NO amount of reports will cause a chat ban, ever. It'd be an effective removal of the system without having to recode the engine OR breaking their chat server setup.
oh and if you're boycotting, keep in mind that buying Zen with Questionite still gives them money, since it 1.) Increases the price of Z, increasing the desire of people to buy it to to sell and 2.) Was paid for by someone in the first place.
The only exception is if you somehow got a lifetimer's stipend, which is practically impossible to guarantee.
They also need an IP Check on reports: Limit the system so that Reports coming from the Same IP, even on multiple accounts, only count as one.
And further, SOME kind of response to abuse of the system by the GMs is practically required: as stated there ARE jurisdictions with strict rules about harassing behavior online, and refusing to do anything to correct such situations could open them to being charged as participants in the harassment.
They really could get in serious trouble over this.
Flare, in your situation, I might suggest filing an actual police report, someone's definitely deliberately harassing you.
You can't break ToS by abusing this system because Cryptic guys explicitly stated - it is "working as intended". Brilliant! :biggrin:
Which is actually a really, really dumb thing for them to say, since it effectively reads as 'Being able to use the system for harassment is an intended function'. If they hadn't said anything, at best they could be held to be negligent in preventing the function's use for harassment. Having stated that it's working as intended and will not be changed, however, opens them to the possibility of being held as a participant in any harassment that occurs.
It is "working as intended", in that it can be used as intended to shut down spammers. (And yes, we do have spammers - they're not gold scammers, but they do indeed spam chat with the same message over and over and over and...) Misusing the function is a bannable offense, however, assuming you get caught (and the more you do it, the more likely it is that you'll get busted).
Look at it this way - an M-4 carbine in a battlefield situation, firing at full cyclic rate, is working as intended. Firing it in the middle of a shopping mall in the US, however, is not the intended use. That doesn't mean the weapon is broken. Similarly, while the chatban is being wildly misused to ban undeserving people as well as deserving, that means the problem is with enforcement, not the tool itself. And Cryptic, you can't shove this one off on the New Overlords - the problem was a preexisting condition when they bought the game.
I think the best solution was the one proposed above - go into the CO code, find the counter function, and set it to some ridiculous number that will never be reached. Bam, no more autobans!
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Look at it this way - an M-4 carbine in a battlefield situation, firing at full cyclic rate, is working as intended. Firing it in the middle of a shopping mall in the US, however, is not the intended use. That doesn't mean the weapon is broken. Similarly, while the chatban is being wildly misused to ban undeserving people as well as deserving, that means the problem is with enforcement, not the tool itself. And Cryptic, you can't shove this one off on the New Overlords - the problem was a preexisting condition when they bought the game.
This analogy is flawed. The issue is not where the chat ban function is being used, it's by whom. Now, if the government were to pass out M4's and unlimited ammunition to everyone in New York City...
Secondly, there are no people deserving a CO chat ban by definition of the intended use. I haven't seen a RMT ad since a few weeks after launch, ffs. As to those using chat for undesirable things (like violating the ToS), dealing with that is a policing function, and Cryptic has made the mistake of putting police power in the hands of the unnamed masses. And tying regular ignore to chat ban... It boggles my mind that professionals would ever think either was a good idea.
Finally, the meeting between PWE and Cryptic probably went like this.
Cryptic: So, that's how the chat ban system works.
PWE: You let players ban other players? That was stupid.
Cryptic: But it saves money on GM's!
PWE: What is the line item for in-game GM's in CO and STO?
Cryptic: $0!
PWE: Maybe not so stupid after all...
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
The feature is working as intended. It's not being used as intended.
And there is no way to guarantee that it will be used as intended, that the user will know or understand what that intended use is (we know, because we frequent the forums and we have been told... in a very old archieved post; the playerbase at large is not privy to that information), or that they will properly judge when a message is actual spam as defined by Cryptic, or when its merely something that bothers them personally.
And even barring all that, there's still the fact that (at least according to what we've been told before in yet other archieved posts) the ignore function achieves the same result (counting toward being chat banned), and the intended use of that particular function can be applied for ANY situation (not just gold sellers).
And there is no way to guarantee that it will be used as intended, that the user will know or understand what that intended use is (we know, because we frequent the forums and we have been told... in a very old archieved post; the playerbase at large is not privy to that information), or that they will properly judge when a message is actual spam as defined by Cryptic, or when its merely something that bothers them personally.
And even barring all that, there's still the fact that (at least according to what we've been told before in yet other archieved posts) the ignore function achieves the same result (counting toward being chat banned), and the intended use of that particular function can be applied for ANY situation (not just gold sellers).
Yeah, like I said, it's being used improperly. My response is to the people saying things like
You can't break ToS by abusing this system because Cryptic guys explicitly stated - it is "working as intended".
I know that it's a bad system, I know that it's even labeled incorrectly, I know that it gets abused. The system technically works. Practically, it doesn't.
You could make an argument that people HAVE broken the TOS by using the report system, specifically sections 10.f and 10.h, and possibly in certain jurisdictions, 10.i .
10. User Conduct
You must observe these Terms, all Rules of Conduct, all applicable laws and all basic rules of etiquette and common courtesy when using the Website and the Service. Any conduct that violates the law in an offline, real world community is also a violation of these terms. PWE will not tolerate any illegal or offensive conduct.
Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 10 above, you agree not to take any of the following actions:
...
(f) "Stalk," threaten or otherwise harass or cause discomfort to another;
...
(h) Impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the game or in Interactive Areas on the Site or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS) "spamming" or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or PWE employees;
(i) Engage in, encourage, or promote any illegal activity, or any activity that violates these Terms or the Rules of Conduct;
...
Edit: Oh, and in certain cases, 10.a:
(a) Harm minors in any way;
The key thing is that these TOS provisions are intentionally open-ended as to methods used: Otherwise legitimate game systems are included. It's the *intent* behind the use that makes it a violation, not what is being used.
The simple fact is, this is a harassment issue plain and simple, and both the community and Cryptic need to start treating it as such.
Edit2: Not to mention the Header text for the section, which prohibits these uses of the report spam system several ways itself!
You could make an argument that people HAVE broken the TOS by using the report system, specifically sections 10.f and 10.h, and possibly in certain jurisdictions, 10.i .
Edit: Oh, and in certain cases, 10.a:
The key thing is that these TOS provisions are intentionally open-ended as to methods used: Otherwise legitimate game systems are included. It's the *intent* behind the use that makes it a violation, not what is being used.
The simple fact is, this is a harassment issue plain and simple, and both the community and Cryptic need to start treating it as such.
Edit2: Not to mention the Header text for the section, which prohibits these uses of the report spam system several ways itself!
Thank you for getting that for me Graptor, I'm currently in communication with GM Nerift in PWE's ticket support on the issue and I came across possibly needing this as "insurance".
Similarly, while the chatban is being wildly misused to ban undeserving people as well as deserving, that means the problem is with enforcement, not the tool itself.!
Im not sure that I can agree. We dont know that the system is being, "wildly misused." I would not be at all surprised to discover that the chatbans are primarily being caused by people being put on ignore rather than people using the report spam function.
You could make an argument that people HAVE broken the TOS by using the report system
Im not sure that you could. You would have to be able to show that they have used the report spam function in a situation where the ignore function has the same effect. You would really have to stretch to be able to call using the ignore function harassment.
Unless the user of all those different email address is also going to change there IP address I would imagine they could be tracked down.
There's also the possibility that the client tags the user so even though logging in using different details if they use the same client to do so they may be grouped together.
That was not my point.
Stormshade said that using the chatban system against someone who should not be banned is grounds for action against the account.
Drannic said (essentially) that it is intended by Cryptic that no one, regardless of innocence of wrongdoing, should be considered as not worthy of being chat banned.
If everyone, even those not doing anything wrong, are supposed to be considered viable targets of chat ban (according to Drannic, innocent people being banned due to other people innocently using the ignore function is working as intended) then it is not physically possible to violate the rule against chat banning people who dont deserve it. After all Cryptic says that we all deserve it.
Stormshade said that using the chatban system against someone who should not be banned is grounds for action against the account.
Drannic said (essentially) that it is intended by Cryptic that no one, regardless of innocence of wrongdoing, should be considered as not worthy of being chat banned.
If everyone, even those not doing anything wrong, are supposed to be considered viable targets of chat ban (according to Drannic, innocent people being banned due to other people innocently using the ignore function is working as intended) then it is not physically possible to violate the rule against chat banning people who dont deserve it. After all Cryptic says that we all deserve it.
Drannic said what?? You know what I would love for Drannic to get chat banned. Someone should say to Drannic it aint wise to troll your customer base.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Stormshade said that using the chatban system against someone who should not be banned is grounds for action against the account.
Drannic said (essentially) that it is intended by Cryptic that no one, regardless of innocence of wrongdoing, should be considered as not worthy of being chat banned.
If everyone, even those not doing anything wrong, are supposed to be considered viable targets of chat ban (according to Drannic, innocent people being banned due to other people innocently using the ignore function is working as intended) then it is not physically possible to violate the rule against chat banning people who dont deserve it. After all Cryptic says that we all deserve it.
Sounds to me like an excuse to not have real people review this "report spams". Just leave the heartless, soulless automatic system do the work regardless of innocence or guilt.
The system technically has no "bugs". It's doing exactly what it was programmed to do. But since it cannot distinguish WHY those people are using the report spam function, people are going to abuse. If there were GMs policing the matter, this all would cease to be an issue.
Just to let you know, Drannic has noticed the activity over on PTS (about the response he gave and has been quoted earlier in this thread) and has commented again:
What I have posted about this issue still stands. I have looked into this issue further and found that this system completely resides in our Global Chat System. Meaning, that this feature is Cryptic wide and currently does not have any game specific settings. Any changes that Champions Online (CO) requests be made, will propagate to all of our games, this includes Star Trek Online and Neverwinter.
So, as @Benevon has posted, the abuse of this system needs to reviewed, not the feature itself being removed, and this is my next step into this issues investigation.
So just so there is no misunderstanding, the issues under the Working as Designed category are issues that are caused with how our game was created and/or designed, and may not be able to be changed. But this does not invalidate the feedback provided by our user base, and will be brought up to the CO Development team and discussed if it is possible to resolve or changed.
I apologize that some users have found a away to abuse this feature and are using it as a griefing tool.
It is well known someone has been stalking the OP for the best part of a year.
But hey if your going to accuse people without proof so will I . Are YOU and your SG the ones stalking him? Because that can be the only reason you have for that BS remark.
Nice attack by a clique there, since there's no report post feature let me add some points.
The only people I've seen complain about the chat system being broken or abused are the ones who say they are being 'stalked' by 'someone'. Yet they're totally unwilling to admit that maybe what actually happened is that they annoyed a few random people who used the working built in system which in turn did it's job. Paranoid much?
turn the chat system off then,press the minimize chat window button,problem solved for you.
Personally I get very tired of the crap in zone chat and liberally use the ignore feature, as soon as I've done so the problem is solved, I never have to listen to that person again.
Note that I'm not going to turn off zone chat and suggesting it as a solution so that you can carry on regardless is a pretty egotistical thing to do. If you're one of those people who just can't stop chatting then move to a private channel - that's the real fix, there are plenty of them already, including a costume contest one if I recall correctly.
I used to have an Orion slave girl, then PWE 'perfected' her, now all I have is this lousy signature
Nice attack by a clique there, since there's no report post feature let me add some points.
The only people I've seen complain about the chat system being broken or abused are the ones who say they are being 'stalked' by 'someone'. Yet they're totally unwilling to admit that maybe what actually happened is that they annoyed a few random people who used the working built in system which in turn did it's job. Paranoid much?
No just seen Lechy getting stalked all freaking year and people actually turn up to troll his and his SG costume contests. I have been at several of his CC's and seen the trolls in action so yeah theres something afoot
Its common knowledge that so get your facts straight.
If you've been prevented from speaking in chat due to epople reporting you as a spammer then you really need to reconsider how you're using the chat system.
People don't get chat banned multiple times becasue of a faulty system.
People get chat banned multiple times because they're spamming the chat with irrelevant crap.
Try to consider others before firing off a barrage in chat.
Also you accused him of spaming zone and he is one of the more respected players and all the regular forum crew called you on it http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=161391&page=9 . So yeah also shows others have seen and know of the greifing.
Also dont know you as far as I know it could be you, if you dont like false accusations dont make them in the first place and that was my point.
Cant take it dont dish it out.
Also a question...would you renew your sub if you got chat banned for no good reason?
You also say you hit the ignore button often well let me inform you its bugged and linked to report spam so theres another reason why not every player should have it.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Regardless, if flare has personal issues with anyone in the game, I don't feel like abusing the in game chat ban system to attack him is justifiable in any direction. Say what you want about his activities in zone (I'll tell you you're wrong, and flare's a badass, but you can sure say it if you want to) it's still abuse, akin to cyberbullying. Actually, having all of your friends ban together to cause harm to someone on the internet? That's *exactly* the definition of cyber bullying. Either way, it's juvenile and action needs to be taken.
Robbingbrown, you're making a dangerous mistake here. Never assume that since it's not happened to you, the complaint is invalid. If you don't believe there are trolls in this game that'll go out of their way to cause people problems just for a laugh? Go hang out in caprice for a while. I saw one player (who, admittedly, was in a feud with a few other people) get consistently chat muted every day for a month straight. The perpetrators were actually bragging about it in a public channel.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Chat banning should be a GM action, not a player action. Undeniable truth.
If someone is spewing something I don't like, being annoying, being vulgar or crude, or just otherwise getting on my nerves with the chat system- I ignore them, and the simple ignore feature takes care of the problem.
I don't think 99% of the people I ignore should be completely silenced to everyone. So there you have it.
Spam is ignored just as easily as asinine chatter and any other chat stupidity. Use ignore, text goes away. I don't see how making someone ignored is insufficient, even for a spammer.
Simplest solution- eliminate this feature. If someone needs to be silenced for 24 hours, let a GM handle that. The notion that the GM's are lacking in CO doesn't matter- the systems between CO and STO and soon Neverwinter are linked.
Take this feature away. When it is abused against you, flood PWE/Cryptic with complaints.
Just to let you know, Drannic has noticed the activity over on PTS (about the response he gave and has been quoted earlier in this thread) and has commented again:
Unfortunately, that does not address the fact that:
1) There is NO way to ensure that this system cannot be abused. Or...
2) Using the "ignore" feature on ANYONE for ANY reason carries the same result (at least as far as its been explained to us in the past) and its not abuse to use ignore as such.
As such, I maintain that the problem is NOT the way the player is using or "abusing" this system. The problem is the system itself.
Though, thanks for bringing this up and giving us the update
The only people I've seen complain about the chat system being broken or abused are the ones who say they are being 'stalked' by 'someone'. Yet they're totally unwilling to admit that maybe what actually happened is that they annoyed a few random people who used the working built in system which in turn did it's job. Paranoid much?
...Case in point^
I challenge the devs to explain to me how they plan to address the issue of players that insist on viewing the system as the poster above does. That is, that they view it as their "right" to use the "working built in system" that has been provided to them to "do its job" in silencing players that "annoyed a few randome people".
Which systematic, automated approach do they plan to use to deal with that kind of situation, articularly if the players in question opt to use the "ignore" to to silence those they find annoying, as should be their right?
Just to let you know, Drannic has noticed the activity over on PTS (about the response he gave and has been quoted earlier in this thread) and has commented again:
Translation: I'm going to bring this up, but have zero confidence anything can be done, because reworking the game engine is not going to happen. We, but most especially you, are going to have to live with our monumental stupidity ad infinitum (or at least until we go bankrupt).
_________________________________________________
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
Comments
It REALLY didn't belong here, it's called "Spamming: Posting of off-topic comments
| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
[SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
I enjoyed it. :biggrin:
@Scrizz :biggrin:
Thanks. I often forget to point out how cheap Cryptic is.
I mean, hey, why pay up to have proper moderation and keep your paying costumers in the game when you can risk loosing them by setting up an automated system you don't have to pay a salary to in order for it to do its job? Instant bans. Its brilliant!
I have already told you how to get the wheel of change spinning.
So what if it hurts a few people's feelings? This game has PvP, which, like the chat ban system, is also "working as intended," conveniently accessible through the UI, and that hurts people's feelings every day.
If you want something fixed, you may need to evaluate how far you will push the envelope without breaking ToS.
Yep... anyone who thinks that not paying for GM's to do this was the primary motivation to code this crap into their game engine does not really understand business.
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
If that's what it takes to actually solve the problem then I guess it'll never get solved, but I'll be damned before I become a hypocritical bully.
I'm here to help, not hurt.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
Except what you're suggesting does break the ToS. Intentionally griefing new players and cryptic staff is about as Against the ToS as it gets. The feature may be "working as intended" for the purposes of silencing spammers, but that doesn't change that its use against innocent players is abuse.
You're championing the wrong way to handle things Brou. It doesn't matter how "in the right" you feel like you are on this. You're advocating abusing players to stop people from abusing players. It's wrong and if you can't see that maybe you should step back.
I don't believe I am right.
It's all a logical conclusion.
1) Innocent player is being chat banned over and over by an ingame feature in the chat system.
2) When confronting the top authority of that service or product, fully informing them of the circumstances around the ban, the announcement is that the use of this feature in such a manner is "working as intended."
3) 2 is an extremely important part of the logic. As long as Cryptic Studios does not change its mind, it is within our power and within normal parameters of gameplay to carry out the usage of report spam as referenced in 1.Therefore, perform to your content 1 until Cryptic says to stop, or removes the ability to perform 1.
Do you think I am trying to spur people to breaking rules, O?
Never would I do that.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
And where is that post?
EDIT: Actually, forget it. I know it's not written by him even if you do find it.
Whatever the stance, it needs to be known now.
I think that post needs to rear it's head right about now.
I for one would like to read what Stormy posted on this issue :cool:
| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
[SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
...............and great rice.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
Boom.
At least they penalize them for it,but we need something to watch them,24/7,and evaluate the post they reported,and post by the poster in the past minute or so,in which if it categorizes as unneeded,ie:same sentence over again,it counts as spam,if not,the report spam is void and doesn't go through.
Consolidate currency!
Munitions additions
Petition to take in game report spam function out
Why not to do surveys and free offers
Considering that it is possible to create multiple free silver accounts using webmail systems that provides potentially an endless number of email accounts...
...and also considering that Cryptic's GM support is pathetic, and that they are not obliged to inform us the details of any actions made against abusers (if at all)...
Stormshade's "warning" or "reassurance" has no ground to stand on. It's not that I advocate abuse of the system to get a point across, just that expecting to be penalized for it in any worthwhile manner is kind of laughable since any cunning abuser isn't stupid enough to use their main account to do it.
And since we have been told that banning people who have done nothing for which they should be banned is, "Working as intended," it is physically impossible to run afoul of the point highlighted in the quote of SS above.
You see, according to Cryptic there is no such thing as someone, "who should not be," chat banned.
EDIT: But I do oppose abusing the system to make a point.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Just to address this comment, I don't think this is a fair comparison. Even with the constant raging and injury of personal pride in PvP, it is nothing compared to being silenced for 24 hours straight. It is no justification at all to exploiting the chat-ban in anyway as a form of protest, no matter how well-meaning the intention is.
I doubt you'd enjoy having your full day ruined in this manner. If you think it's acceptable and it's for a greater cause, more power to you. Just don't expect others to share that mindset.
1) The ignore function also counts toward chat bans (and you don't need ANY "justifiable" reason to "ignore" someone).
2) There is no way that I can think of that they could conclusively determine (even if Cryptic would bother, which I believe they wouldn't) that someone actually abused the system.
If a bunch of people placed someone that was RPing in a highly populated area in Ren Center on ignore because they didn't like the constant stream of local chat flooding their window. How do you establish that that is abuse? Which of all those people abused the system? And how exactly does the RPer deserve to get chat-banned just from the simple fact that a bunch of people rightfully opted not the have the RP'ers chat flooding their chat window?
Neither party is wrong in the above example. Yet the system as it currently functions does not take that scenario into account or a bunch of other likely scenarios that could get someone chat-banned with no discernible "guilty" party to "punish".
Which by the way, (punishment) solves NOTHING. It will not remove the victim's chat-ban. It will NOT give the affected players the time back that they have lost. It will not fix a destroyed costume contest because the judge got chat-banned and magically bring all the people back to that place so they can finally have their contest. It does absolutely N-O-T-H-I-N-G.
So someone got "punished", so what? What are we supposed to do then? "We got our pound of meat, YAAAYYYYY!!! This TOTALLY sets everything right, YES!!!" *jumps of joy with a fist up in the air*
EDIT/PS: And even if someone willfully opts to abuse the system there could still be ways to do it without discernible bad intent being linked back to them. They could just randomly ignore people all day long, and maybe coordinate it with other people through some external system chat system like messenger and have a bunch of people chat-ban someone without there being any trace in the game's chat system that any wrong doing went on.
The entire notion that Cryptic is somehow this parent figure that will take care of it if the system somehow gets abused is completely pointless and nothing but useless platitudes.
Yeah getting chatbanned sucks.
Sucks more that Cryptic isn't willing to give this system the serious overhaul it needs.
Sucks even worse that people would actually think about stooping to such low levels because they feel their voice isn't being heard.
Well your voice was heard, and subsequently ignored.
There's nothing else we can do at this point that will be effective short of maybe sending emails to PWE corporate and hoping that if we pile up enough crap on them that it will roll back downhill to Cryptic.
In-game demonstrations and most especially forum raging won't get anything done.
Which I have been--or at least sending out PWE tickets on their website. Don't stop discussing, don't stop submitting tickets, boycott the Z-Store, and be incessant in these things.
If we were to stop, I feel like I would have given up on the subject. I refuse to do that. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Even if this doesn't accomplish anything other than raising awareness, I'll feel that I contributed positively to making this a good gaming experience to others in the future.
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
But do not adopt the tactics of the enemy. That's how they win.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I disagree with this part.
I'm not saying that's its alright or that it isn't unfair for the rest of the playerbase and I'm not condoning it. I'm not even saying that it wouldn't have negative effects for the game itself (a bunch of people leaving because they suddenly got chat-banned and don't know what's going on would be detrimental to the game, at least on the short run).
But I feel pretty secure on the believe that a bunch of people suddenly getting mass chat-banned every other day of the week would get the ball rolling faster and with a higher degree of certainty* than ANYTHING else that we can possibly do about this issue.
*I'm not even sure complaining to PWE about it would do much good unless we somehow managed to gather a MASSIVE amount of people to pitch in and right some really compelling letters on the matter. And even then its just sit back and hope that something gets done.
EDIT/PS: Just so we're clear and anyone gets any ideas, don't anyone start mass chat-banning people, though.
People who do "whatever it takes" to hammer a point home, especially when they know its wrong, are not very heroic imo. :eek:
Be a hero.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
I don't always read post titles, but when I do,
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Happily processing LOL's for over 300 days and counting . . .
Unless the user of all those different email address is also going to change there IP address I would imagine they could be tracked down.
There's also the possibility that the client tags the user so even though logging in using different details if they use the same client to do so they may be grouped together.
oh and if you're boycotting, keep in mind that buying Zen with Questionite still gives them money, since it 1.) Increases the price of Z, increasing the desire of people to buy it to to sell and 2.) Was paid for by someone in the first place.
The only exception is if you somehow got a lifetimer's stipend, which is practically impossible to guarantee.
They also need an IP Check on reports: Limit the system so that Reports coming from the Same IP, even on multiple accounts, only count as one.
And further, SOME kind of response to abuse of the system by the GMs is practically required: as stated there ARE jurisdictions with strict rules about harassing behavior online, and refusing to do anything to correct such situations could open them to being charged as participants in the harassment.
They really could get in serious trouble over this.
Flare, in your situation, I might suggest filing an actual police report, someone's definitely deliberately harassing you.
Which is actually a really, really dumb thing for them to say, since it effectively reads as 'Being able to use the system for harassment is an intended function'. If they hadn't said anything, at best they could be held to be negligent in preventing the function's use for harassment. Having stated that it's working as intended and will not be changed, however, opens them to the possibility of being held as a participant in any harassment that occurs.
Good job!
Look at it this way - an M-4 carbine in a battlefield situation, firing at full cyclic rate, is working as intended. Firing it in the middle of a shopping mall in the US, however, is not the intended use. That doesn't mean the weapon is broken. Similarly, while the chatban is being wildly misused to ban undeserving people as well as deserving, that means the problem is with enforcement, not the tool itself. And Cryptic, you can't shove this one off on the New Overlords - the problem was a preexisting condition when they bought the game.
I think the best solution was the one proposed above - go into the CO code, find the counter function, and set it to some ridiculous number that will never be reached. Bam, no more autobans!
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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This analogy is flawed. The issue is not where the chat ban function is being used, it's by whom. Now, if the government were to pass out M4's and unlimited ammunition to everyone in New York City...
Secondly, there are no people deserving a CO chat ban by definition of the intended use. I haven't seen a RMT ad since a few weeks after launch, ffs. As to those using chat for undesirable things (like violating the ToS), dealing with that is a policing function, and Cryptic has made the mistake of putting police power in the hands of the unnamed masses. And tying regular ignore to chat ban... It boggles my mind that professionals would ever think either was a good idea.
Finally, the meeting between PWE and Cryptic probably went like this.
Cryptic: So, that's how the chat ban system works.
PWE: You let players ban other players? That was stupid.
Cryptic: But it saves money on GM's!
PWE: What is the line item for in-game GM's in CO and STO?
Cryptic: $0!
PWE: Maybe not so stupid after all...
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008
And there is no way to guarantee that it will be used as intended, that the user will know or understand what that intended use is (we know, because we frequent the forums and we have been told... in a very old archieved post; the playerbase at large is not privy to that information), or that they will properly judge when a message is actual spam as defined by Cryptic, or when its merely something that bothers them personally.
And even barring all that, there's still the fact that (at least according to what we've been told before in yet other archieved posts) the ignore function achieves the same result (counting toward being chat banned), and the intended use of that particular function can be applied for ANY situation (not just gold sellers).
Yeah, like I said, it's being used improperly. My response is to the people saying things like
I know that it's a bad system, I know that it's even labeled incorrectly, I know that it gets abused. The system technically works. Practically, it doesn't.
Edit: Oh, and in certain cases, 10.a:
The key thing is that these TOS provisions are intentionally open-ended as to methods used: Otherwise legitimate game systems are included. It's the *intent* behind the use that makes it a violation, not what is being used.
The simple fact is, this is a harassment issue plain and simple, and both the community and Cryptic need to start treating it as such.
Edit2: Not to mention the Header text for the section, which prohibits these uses of the report spam system several ways itself!
Thank you for getting that for me Graptor, I'm currently in communication with GM Nerift in PWE's ticket support on the issue and I came across possibly needing this as "insurance".
Flare's guide to hosting and judging costume contests!
(link under construction)
If they are going to keep it only Golds should have the report spam button.
For one reason only there are less of us and we are easier to track and have more to lose.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Im not sure that I can agree. We dont know that the system is being, "wildly misused." I would not be at all surprised to discover that the chatbans are primarily being caused by people being put on ignore rather than people using the report spam function.
Im not sure that you could. You would have to be able to show that they have used the report spam function in a situation where the ignore function has the same effect. You would really have to stretch to be able to call using the ignore function harassment.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
That was not my point.
Stormshade said that using the chatban system against someone who should not be banned is grounds for action against the account.
Drannic said (essentially) that it is intended by Cryptic that no one, regardless of innocence of wrongdoing, should be considered as not worthy of being chat banned.
If everyone, even those not doing anything wrong, are supposed to be considered viable targets of chat ban (according to Drannic, innocent people being banned due to other people innocently using the ignore function is working as intended) then it is not physically possible to violate the rule against chat banning people who dont deserve it. After all Cryptic says that we all deserve it.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Drannic said what?? You know what I would love for Drannic to get chat banned. Someone should say to Drannic it aint wise to troll your customer base.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Sounds to me like an excuse to not have real people review this "report spams". Just leave the heartless, soulless automatic system do the work regardless of innocence or guilt.
The system technically has no "bugs". It's doing exactly what it was programmed to do. But since it cannot distinguish WHY those people are using the report spam function, people are going to abuse. If there were GMs policing the matter, this all would cease to be an issue.
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Toons and costumes thread
@Benevon
Leader of Super Serious Brooding Vigilantes
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=2294821&postcount=136
Just a heads up to all.
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| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
[SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
Nice attack by a clique there, since there's no report post feature let me add some points.
The only people I've seen complain about the chat system being broken or abused are the ones who say they are being 'stalked' by 'someone'. Yet they're totally unwilling to admit that maybe what actually happened is that they annoyed a few random people who used the working built in system which in turn did it's job. Paranoid much?
Personally I get very tired of the crap in zone chat and liberally use the ignore feature, as soon as I've done so the problem is solved, I never have to listen to that person again.
Note that I'm not going to turn off zone chat and suggesting it as a solution so that you can carry on regardless is a pretty egotistical thing to do. If you're one of those people who just can't stop chatting then move to a private channel - that's the real fix, there are plenty of them already, including a costume contest one if I recall correctly.
No just seen Lechy getting stalked all freaking year and people actually turn up to troll his and his SG costume contests. I have been at several of his CC's and seen the trolls in action so yeah theres something afoot
Its common knowledge that so get your facts straight.
Here do ya home work \o/ http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=154501
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=2275581#post2275581
Also you accused him of spaming zone and he is one of the more respected players and all the regular forum crew called you on it http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=161391&page=9 . So yeah also shows others have seen and know of the greifing.
Also dont know you as far as I know it could be you, if you dont like false accusations dont make them in the first place and that was my point.
Cant take it dont dish it out.
Also a question...would you renew your sub if you got chat banned for no good reason?
You also say you hit the ignore button often well let me inform you its bugged and linked to report spam so theres another reason why not every player should have it.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Robbingbrown, you're making a dangerous mistake here. Never assume that since it's not happened to you, the complaint is invalid. If you don't believe there are trolls in this game that'll go out of their way to cause people problems just for a laugh? Go hang out in caprice for a while. I saw one player (who, admittedly, was in a feud with a few other people) get consistently chat muted every day for a month straight. The perpetrators were actually bragging about it in a public channel.
RIP Caine
If someone is spewing something I don't like, being annoying, being vulgar or crude, or just otherwise getting on my nerves with the chat system- I ignore them, and the simple ignore feature takes care of the problem.
I don't think 99% of the people I ignore should be completely silenced to everyone. So there you have it.
Spam is ignored just as easily as asinine chatter and any other chat stupidity. Use ignore, text goes away. I don't see how making someone ignored is insufficient, even for a spammer.
Simplest solution- eliminate this feature. If someone needs to be silenced for 24 hours, let a GM handle that. The notion that the GM's are lacking in CO doesn't matter- the systems between CO and STO and soon Neverwinter are linked.
Take this feature away. When it is abused against you, flood PWE/Cryptic with complaints.
Unfortunately, that does not address the fact that:
1) There is NO way to ensure that this system cannot be abused. Or...
2) Using the "ignore" feature on ANYONE for ANY reason carries the same result (at least as far as its been explained to us in the past) and its not abuse to use ignore as such.
As such, I maintain that the problem is NOT the way the player is using or "abusing" this system. The problem is the system itself.
Though, thanks for bringing this up and giving us the update
EDIT:...
...Case in point^
I challenge the devs to explain to me how they plan to address the issue of players that insist on viewing the system as the poster above does. That is, that they view it as their "right" to use the "working built in system" that has been provided to them to "do its job" in silencing players that "annoyed a few randome people".
Which systematic, automated approach do they plan to use to deal with that kind of situation, articularly if the players in question opt to use the "ignore" to to silence those they find annoying, as should be their right?
Translation: I'm going to bring this up, but have zero confidence anything can be done, because reworking the game engine is not going to happen. We, but most especially you, are going to have to live with our monumental stupidity ad infinitum (or at least until we go bankrupt).
I been a long time leaving but I'm going to be a long time gone.
Willie Nelson
T.U.F.K.A.S. (the user formerly known as Scarlyng)
Wrong on the CO forums since November, 2008