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What makes CO different?
hocofaisan
Posts: 190 Arc User
After perusing the latest announcements of the other "lesser" superhero games, a question has come to mind:
what keeps CO from getting content updates of the quality, quantity and depth that the other two games seem to get every quarter?
SOE and Paragon seem to deliver multiple powersets, multiple costume packs, and multiple zones (and new instances) in the space of time that champs gets a couple of alerts.
I know this topic may be touchy, but I am curious on what or community thinks?
Do I have the wrong impression? is the content that CO receives bigger than I have been perceiving?
what keeps CO from getting content updates of the quality, quantity and depth that the other two games seem to get every quarter?
SOE and Paragon seem to deliver multiple powersets, multiple costume packs, and multiple zones (and new instances) in the space of time that champs gets a couple of alerts.
I know this topic may be touchy, but I am curious on what or community thinks?
Do I have the wrong impression? is the content that CO receives bigger than I have been perceiving?
POSITIVE ABOUT CO IN 2013!
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I have yet to see a single "Godmode Hero". You can make a good build, but Godmode? No.
I think the biggest factor is that DCU is pretty new, so they still have a lot to add. On the other side, City of Heroes is so old that they have to keep adding things. CO is kind of in the middle.
You also have to consider that Paragon only seems to be working on CoH, whereas Cryptic is working on several games at once, while also handling a merger with a new company. The other reason why DCU can come out with so many updates is that they have a lot of money and people behind it. I mean, you've got both DC Comics AND Sony pouring money into it.
But looking at all of them, CO has the best customization by far.
I always see people saying this!
Where is the origin of this rumor?
As for CoX... I've heard it said that there's actually apparently TOO MUCH content, or at least, content that's instanced rather than on the overworld there. I haven't had time to play it myself, but someone told me that since most of the game itself is instanced, you feel somewhat singular whilst playing, since everyone's somewhere else. I've yet to verify that.
Champions is woefully understaffed from what I've gathered, which is why updates have slowed down a bit. However, they do have some major plans coming based on what the most recent UNTIL report says. If even half of that stuff (the Victorian one is probably coming. The guy who does the concept art for the costumes, JAG, already has some obviously Jack the Ripper based stuff on his blog up, and let me tell you, it looks awesome.) comes to light (vehicles will be... interesting, depending on how the controls differ to make it not seem ridiculous), then it will be really awesome.
And at least half of it will.
I'll agree with anyone that Alerts seem kinda... Well, lame. I do like the fact that one of them is 10 people teamed, and I do like that they're still creating new object resources for the game, enough for the Hi Pan alert to exist... But I can't help but feel it's oddly shallow.
I think it's the lack of story. Admittedly the Hi Pan one has a bit of story (bad guy is doing something that's semi-related to what you saw them doing before, go stop him!), but it feels like we really needed some mission that leads up to waiting in a queue to join that Alert, like an Investigation mission, where we see hints around the city that Hi Pan is doing something big, which leads to us investigating the top of that building where the Culmination mission happened, as a sort of sequel to that mission, rather than jumping right into the boss fight to stop his fiendish schemes.
You've got to beat the Robot Masters before you go for Wily. Otherwise you feel the Fourth Wall shudder, and you briefly realise "this is a game. There is nothing that makes me feel like I honestly NEED to be doing this.".
It's hard to justify doing them beyond the rewards at the end of them.
And that's a problem.
We really shouldn't be doing things for the loot at the end.
The journey itself should really be rewarding.
I'm probably getting majorly offtopic, and the scroll bar's shrunk really small so I've typed way too much, but blarrrgghhh *vomits up disorganised thoughts* :biggrin:
Well, perception is kind of off. One can't really say the updates that either of the competitors have been quality, quantity sure, but quality is another thing entirely. Few of my friends from DCUO have been rather put off by the updates from SoE in fact, and I can't exactly say that City ofs updates have been anything but stellar. The new power sets are turning into a lot of copy paste jobs over there with little actual variety, and very poor animation. Most of what Paragon has done has fallen under the recylced it and still only focused on the hero game and damn the villain game.
But, on the other hand, I think the first priority for CO was actually rebalancing the game systems as a whole, which took time to do, and there are still things to tweak between now and later. That is mostly out of the way and looks like Cryptic is now pushing forward. The next objective, I believe, is to get the old lairs up to snuff and actually something people want to play, then of course, after that would be a new zone, content and such of that nature. And from the sound of things, they are actually planning to deliver some original seasonal updates as well, instead of just recycling old updates and putting a new hat on it.
Optimistic maybe, but then again, why shouldn't we be? After all, they are saying we are getting vehicles, which is something the other two games, as far as I am aware, have not stated they will deliver.
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Which part? Where devs have been pulled to other teams? Let's see Tumerboy was moved off to STO, Lexeme hasn't worked on the UI in ages. I am sure there are others in that mix.
We've got as far as I can tell, Ame and Akinos, if they are still here, Gentlemen Crush and Spolosions, Costume guy Brad Stokan. We've got an EP that's we heard from once.
We are also on our 3rd EP.
Both STO and NW have their own dedicated community managers, we have to share.
We've all been here long to enough to go through the STO launch to know resources are being diverted right now for the launch of NW.
It's just a matter of fact. CO gets less attention and always has, even under Atari, than it's sister games.
Actually, developers shift around projects all the time. The fact that CO players take it personally is baffling. This is nothing new. Promotions happen, people move on, etc etc etc. Trying to lay claim that there is no one to take a persons place after one of the guys leave is baffling on so many levels, especially when Tumerboy said himself he was training him. It's obvious we have a new environment artist, which is what Tumerboy was, since we got the Hi Pan alert, the alert a lot of people say is a beautiful environment.
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I've also been noticing how people both on these forums and the STO ones are often complaining about how their respective games have a less dedicated developer team, and the other one is much better off than their game of choice. Which is kind of insulting to the people who are around and working on the game, I think, no matter if they are there for the long haul or just until the higher ups shuffle them to another game.
Sad but very probably true until cryptic and PW get there act together and start putting more resources COs way I don't see much changing in our update frequency and/or size.
You make good points, except the animation aspect, I don't agree with.
What prompted me to make this post was some videos of CoX's Water Blast, and Nature Affinty sets...
I am so jealous, and I want those animations/fx here. (And subtractive colors too)
So why do people keep repeating it.
Shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence, in my opinion.. ( Although I just did that)
I've seen the water, they don't impress me. And you obviously haven't looked at their Giant Weapons tree. Honestly, that set makes me cringe in how it animates, the same with their staff fighting set. And having seen the water blast set, it's a bit of a stretch to call it impressive.
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We don't know if its baseless or not. Champsionshewolf has no better information than the rest of us, they just might point things out from a different angle.
I think in general we see more people leaving than coming in, people who have left have not been replaced, at least not to the extent that we are aware. And I think a lot people, myself included, take that as a general explanation of why the game has not made a large amount of forward progress. That in conjunction with the lack of communication makes for a lot of blah.
Of course the truth could very well be that the game has adequate staff to maintain, but that it is that PWE does not want to invest much in this game as it is not a money generator.
Actually, we do have better information. The fact we are told of the replacements. There isn't some incongruity here. This is just simple facts and how the actual system works. Developers are not and never have been permanent fixtures on a project. There isn't a single MMO out there that developers haven't moved on from or been shifted to a new project. It's the nature of the industry. This isn't baseless or even made up. It's a fact. You can go look at WoW now, and I bet you that there isn't a single one of the original dev team working on it anymore. Ultima Online has had at least 5 different dev teams since its launch, and had at least a new producer for every year of its life.
Really, trying to state that I don't have any more information, other than basic common sense and you know, facts from how the industry actually works, is a tad silly. And your closing statement of PWE not wanting to invest much in the game is also baseless, since you have no proof, and my counter argument is a simple one; If they wanted to invest nothing in this game, they would have closed it down since you said yourself, this game isn't a money maker. Which instantly proves your statement rather false.
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Do you think that Cryptic will move some of those devs back to CO once Neverwinter is finished?
Because those of us who ARE software developers (and obviously from what I have seen Spar post in the past, Spar is not...) know that when a project hits "crunch-time" (i.e. preparing to launch on-time) some senior level resources get pulled in because hitting the deadline is all that matters. Not all, but the devs that know their way around the systems do get pulled because it is not feasible to hire people and bring them up to speed in time to hit the deadline. Newer ("junior level") devs continue on the old project because that's how you become "senior level".
Nor do they get replaced because they are not on permanent assignment and if they do end up moving over then they train up their replacement as Tumer did before switching over. It's a standard industry practice and it happened when STO launched, one of the devs admitted it afterwards.
Why do you think communication has ceased and all of the bug-fixes are easy ("low-hanging fruit" we call it) or recent bugs? Hint: Because fixing other people's code is always harder (read: more time-consuming and time = money) than fixing your own code.
When Neverwinter launches, watch... this situation will improve.
People are broken. - Lum the Mad
I am sure some of them are still working on CO, since they are software engineers. The engine changes and updates we get, for instance, are the result of new tech and ideas being implemented into the engine, and since Cryptic shares the engine with all three games, one can't actually sit there and say they aren't working on Champions. They would have to be in order to keep updating the engine, since the game has its own nuances that makes it different from STO and NW.
Will devs come back to CO? That all depends on what you mean, if they are promoted, or if they are only temporary. There might be devs that come back to work on the project, but how many are you actually talking about? When a project is done, rarely is the original staff as large as it was when they were creating it. Again, the nature of the beast and all. It also depends on if they want to come back. Some devs change jobs because, well, like in Tumerboys case, I think he was working on the environments of Champions during its creation. A change of pace and all. To do something and make different things.
I know people say hideouts were exclusively his baby, but I can't agree 100% with that. Especially since they would have needed some programmers and engineers to make them functional to begin with. Not to mention they are still talking about hideout additions. It seems a little silly that people take it that when a dev leaves that everything they ever did just magically is halted and will never be touched again. When that happens that is usually a result of priorities changing because of the demands, unfortunately, of the player base. An unfortunate byproduct that regardless of how loudly intent may sound, the devs still have to feel around in the dark and try to make the best decision that pleases a lot of people, since no two people can agree 100% on anything, no matter how trivial.
So the answer is, it will all depend. Project sizes, what is needed, and other such things.
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I never claimed to be a developer, but then again, you just repeated what I said
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Besides there is no proof of cryptic abandoning this game, besides the lack of any meaningful growth of content.
I hope you are right that after Neverwinter plops out, CO sees a renaissance.
When does Neverwinter launch anyway?
They've not announced yet. They just talk about a beta, which not sure if it has started or not yet. Probably be a Spring release at the earliest.
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It's the modular and freeform nature of the game, and the ease of RP that I enjoy. These elements attracted me from CoX and brought me back after trying DCU. I am pleased with the speed, type, and quality of the updates we've received so far. Hell, I don't have enough time to play through all that's there, now.
I will disagree on the sandbox nature, since CO is not a sandbox. It's a theme park game, just like WoW, TOR and many others in this genre. I can't, for instance, make Reed Richards, the sciencey guy that tends to make tons of tech for his team to use. Regardless of build my ultimate goal will be punching, stabbing or blasting villains into submission.
Of the three, only DCUO is the one that offers very little in variety of characters as well.
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every game has it's merit, it's just a pity this game fails at it's uniqueness.
I doubt you can point to any game, especially an MMO, that has any uniqueness to it in the last decade. And if you mean DCUO's PvP, honestly,t hat's as much a shambles, if not worse, than CO's.
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DCUO's pvp was very good, and IMHO, the best MMO PvP system recently to come out, before they decided to "dumb" it down for the influx of new players, so they have a chance against the Vets in PvP...in turn, it has completely ruined the fast paced, think on your feet action combat that made DCUO's PvP great and has turned it into a turtlefest where it no longer takes skill to win, but the abuse of game mechanics to win PvP matches now...
DCUO's PvP was always abuse of mechanics fest and because, quite frankly, they use the UNREAL engine, was always ripe with cheats. Not to mention the hold and juggle fest was more than just a tad annoying.
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You forgot to mention Nemesis, Multiple costumes, and soon vehicles.
Oh, and Beacons! Don't forget the beacons!
The "promotions" happened, and production on CO dropped noticably.
In the absence of real information (which no one can argue that CO lacks), people speculate.
This whole vicious circle could be solved by the simple act of communication.
I'll use the recent CM shift (StormShade to Trailturtle) as an example.
There was NO official mention of it until it already happened.
It took the mention of TT acting in a CM capacity, and a red name to bring SS out of the woodwork to actually post he'd already been transferred, and TT had taken his place.
Simly put, we see stuff happen.
When no one proves to us it's not crap, we call it crap.
The longer it goes on, the worse it smells, until someone proves to us it's not crap...
...All because communication on CO blows goats :mad:
| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
[SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
Maybe, but SS had announced long ago, that he was working across multiple platforms and wasn't the direct CM over CO a long time ago. I might have been mad or shocked if it just wasn't well known to begin with. It's hardly what I would call a prime example.
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There they reveal something new and take questions on a weekly basis. It's run by the head community rep and always has a developer special guest.
I wish Cryptic would steal that idea.
The best example I can come up with is the complete 180 in dev communication...
I can remember a time when CO had the best dev communication in ant MMO I've ever played. Not just TB, everybody talked to us daily. In fact, I remember STO players commenting that they wished they had the same communication level as CO did...
Now its entirely the opposite. We have the next best thing to crickets while STO gets pages of dev replies daily...
Either the folks that used to talk to us are gone or they've been forbidden to communicate with us any longer...
My money is on they've gone the way of the Tumer...
M-O-O-N, that spells @Rhyatt
Originally Posted by mijjestic: Ultimately, though, MMO players throwing stones at each other in this fashion is basically one nerd pointing and laughing at another nerd whose glasses are thicker.
Laws yes!
There was almost nothing "right" about DCUO battle system back when I still played it (which was near launch). Small amount of attacks to be had due to the limitation of console UI, most of the powersets attacks were copies of each other, there were no unique powers, players were forced to mix weapons and superpowers.. Remind me again what was good about DCUO battle system.
Oh and DCUO pvp was pretty generic because the characters sucked so hard. I guess you could call it 'balanced' since there were so little variety between characters.
The only good thing I remember about DCUO was the ability of a superspeeder to run up walls and roof.
CO is really a great game, but the media blackout is rather a shame, it feels like they want the game to fade into the quiet night. Someone mentioned that if they wanted to shut down the game, they could have, but I'd argue that they can still milk it for some money, I've still managed to convince some friends to play and they've thrown money at Cryptic/PW...
Hopefully NW comes out and they breathe more life into the game and the channels between Community and Devs.
I'd call it a PERFECT example
| ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
[SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
Well, still don't know how it would be perfect since we've known since before PWE
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The problem with that is that they don't wish to strive to be better than the other games.
Lack of funding, and lack of staff. That is all.
↑ ↑ ↓ ↓ ← → ← → Ⓑ Ⓐ
Hell if we got a notification when a dev farted, that would be an improvement.
I think the problem is that everyone can't agree what would be good for the game. I want to see better, but what I want to see, a lot of people disagree with.
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As an example of staff leaving and not being properly replaced how about our latest EP promoted from the ranks but no word of his replacement in the ranks so we lost out a team member. before that our ever present Taco was lost and his trainee took the reigns but he didn't get a trainee to replace himself.
As for what makes this game different and in my eyes better is free form, Nemesis system, great power sets, a fast paced easy to use combat system and a great IP to be a "super" hero rather than a side kick ( you can surpass Defender but you will always be less than Batman).
I have played other Super Hero games but always return here to spend my money and create my next alt.
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CO freeform toons are nowhere near God Mode, more like the first issue that CoH used to have.. Heroes in diapers.
Try beating a legendary of the same level as your toon on your own within a minute, better yet 30 minutes.
In fact the mechanic that eventually, after a long trek to the top level and harvesting worthwhile gear, which there are none, that can send a toon's power to such levels even remotely worthy of a title of a "demi" god should be in CO.
Freeform just means you can mix and match powers that are all crap from different crap powersets that will never be as strong as any NPC legendary class supervillain, it's enjoyable to have that "free" dom, but it only lasts for a second or two when you realize that no matter how you scrammble that egg, its still just an egg. Freeform is just an omelet, but essentially still an egg food.
I think the Devs actually look down on Freeform, finding ways to prevent your "freeform" toon to ever be any good, like be a toon like "Gravitar", that chick is a mad Tank DPS Crowd Controlling machine, no freeform toon will ever get near that kind of powerset.
simply "Weak"
Paragon studios have wised up and created the Incarnate system to try and vault the infantile heroes into worthwhile potent heroes.
SOE at least let you keep attaining skill points beyond your standard leveling capacity with feats.
As for Cryptic's CO , well they are simply gotten lazy and been living off the PR of "Freeform" which is actually only allowing the player to choose the look and feel of their prison of an avatar over the silver players that has to sit in a cell avatar not of their own design.
Nothing special about CO, they are just Lazy.
Geeze at least make the champions world truly open world.
Weak!
Ultimately all three superhero games are still gimping their superheroes due to their advocation of the "Trinity" system, and the Trinity system reveals the fraudulence of CO's so called Freeform.
Otherwise you can make a toon just like Gravitar and take her down on your lonesome and actually surmount her after a long battle, granted you didn't make any mistake in your strategy. As of yet, the only strategy to beat someone like Gravitar or Hi Pan or any other Legendary, is with a Zerg tactic and even then, you need the right roled characters to be present to have any chance.