test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Options

FC.30.20120720a.1 PTS Update

2»

Comments

  • Options
    xcaligaxxcaligax Posts: 1,096 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    neosouji wrote: »
    Oh, and there's Caliga and Silverspar, who can pretty much solo the entire server. While still being pretty amazing at keeping aggro when the situation calls for it. They kill slowly, but they don't die. Period. (ok, Teleiosaurus needs some extra DPS due to the regen, but that's one helluva exception.)

    I dunno about being able to solo the whole server... :confused:

    I've built myself to be an epicly durable tank, and I worked hard to get it that way. I've sacrificed so much damage to make sure my threat generation and defensive capabilities are high enough to make my team win against whatever we're facing. That's my job. I'm a TANK.
    -raises eyebrow- There are many so called offensive passives that have a questionable amount of defense. Quite frankly defensive passives could use some updating to put them on par with some of the newer 'offensive' passives.

    This. The fact that it's called an "offensive" passive and still has defensive capabilities is a joke. Defensive passives are just that, defensive in nature, with absolutely no offensive boosting capabilities. And now some dps are complaining about survivability? Get a heal or two, and use the damn block button.

    Oh and kaizerin, I like your pony/creature thingy in your sig. He's adowaaabbuuulll!!!! :D
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited October 2015

    This is not the fault of passives, this is the fault of specializations, also remember you can get those same specs and more with defensive passives, not suffer any effect of DR on your resistances and deal decent damage because the offensive passive users are DRd. (I've seen many tanks put up comparable numbers with far more defense than the average DPS). and To Caliga, please note, heals can't save you from a one shot hit, which Gravitar (as example) has done to many DPS even with good defenses.​​
    Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
  • Options
    pwkampfykaufmannpwkampfykaufmann Posts: 253 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    This is not the fault of passives, this is the fault of specializations, also remember you can get those same specs and more with defensive passives, not suffer any effect of DR on your resistances and deal decent damage because the offensive passive users are DRd. (I've seen many tanks put up comparable numbers with far more defense than the average DPS). and To Caliga, please note, heals can't save you from a one shot hit, which Gravitar (as example) has done to many DPS even with good defenses.

    What he said. Of course small hits can also be mitigated by various means. If you die of a DOT that's just your own fault. No, what kills you if you use an offensive passive and have specced for damage are big hits, like Gravitar or the odd Unleashed Rage from Might supervillains (Recent example that happened to me: Strength of Takofanes in one of the Blood Moon crypts.)
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited October 2015

    Note however, the same efect applies to offenses, only they get more DR from what Cryptic inputs. (This is also the major reason NW was outDPSing WotW prenerf)​​
    Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
  • Options
    theapygoostheapygoos Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    would love to join in the feed back conversation but yea... crashes..
  • Options
    itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,778 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Were these crit or noncrit?


    It did not crit.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited October 2015

    If you notice, Quarry is the exception to the rule, as the idea is for Ranged Offensive passives to have relatively low amounts of defense, while Melee passives provide larger boosts and significantly larger defensive benefits(or should), however Quarry, even though its ranged, has far more defensive synergy than any passive (ranged or melee).​​
    Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    It did not crit.

    That is...
    Oh god I can Imagine the abuse of Crit builds...what role and what passive were you using?
  • Options
    gamehobogamehobo Posts: 1,970 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    The issue with certain passives over others is the fact that only certain types of gameplay are supported.

    If you want an offensive character you HAVE to crit. Building +Offense has NO possible way of putting out the same returns as +CritChance and +CritSeverity. This is a Cryptic Math problem as well as a powers problem.

    For Defense, no matter how much mitigation you get from y our passive the best way to boost defense is with +DodgeChance +Avoidance and Bountiful Chi Resurgence. Anyone who "power builds" knows this. Again a powers problem because you have an unmitigated buff available to all freeform builds (Evasive Maneuvers) that requires very little sacrifice. Unmitigated buffs throw the whole freeform system out of whack. Make certain powers exclusive to one another and you begin to balance.

    I hate it. The game went from offering options of how you want your offense, defense and utility to work to only one viable option. I hate seeing tiny variations of the same build.. It turned this game from gold to stinky pile of poo.

    - -

    The answer is choice exclusivity. If you want a dodge build, devs need to force you into sacrificing mitigation. If you want mitigation you have to be forced to sacrifice dodge. If you want a hybrid of both then both need to have diminishing returns roughly equaling the resultant of either of the aforementioned choices. People will complain about watering down or homogenization but frankly it can't be worse than what you have now (one build to rule them all).

    ALSO +CC Resistance and +Health Points (since it's being counted as a defense) needs to be massively increased and on par with the rest of the choices. In your loot table you're telling me that +30% dodge chance is the same as +CC Resistance.. this is a huge fallacy since +CC Resist does virtually nothing.

    Fix your game PWE, then players will come back to it. And stop pussyfooting around the glaring balance issues between builds. Will some diehards cry a bit that you've nerfed their numbers (even if their builds are working more as intended), yes they'll cry but they'll likely stay if they have this long. But if you want any new player to do more than laugh at this game then you need to cater to a wider array of play experiences.

    Ignore this and every build will be using AoPM/Concentration +100ft Blast (likely Force Cascade) and anyone who doesn't use a version of that build will never prosper. And even those players are wishing in the back of their heads that they didn't get pigeon-holed into the one inescapable build because of your lack of ingenuity, creativity and leadership as developers.
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    gamehobo wrote: »
    The issue with certain passives over others is the fact that only certain types of gameplay are supported.

    If you want an offensive character you HAVE to crit. Building +Offense has NO possible way of putting out the same returns as +CritChance and +CritSeverity. This is a Cryptic Math problem as well as a powers problem.

    For Defense, no matter how much mitigation you get from y our passive the best way to boost defense is with +DodgeChance +Avoidance and Bountiful Chi Resurgence. Anyone who "power builds" knows this. Again a powers problem because you have an unmitigated buff available to all freeform builds (Evasive Maneuvers) that requires very little sacrifice. Unmitigated buffs throw the whole freeform system out of whack. Make certain powers exclusive to one another and you begin to balance.

    I hate it. The game went from offering options of how you want your offense, defense and utility to work to only one viable option. I hate seeing tiny variations of the same build.. It turned this game from gold to stinky pile of poo.

    - -

    The answer is choice exclusivity. If you want a dodge build, devs need to force you into sacrificing mitigation. If you want mitigation you have to be forced to sacrifice dodge. If you want a hybrid of both then both need to have diminishing returns roughly equaling the resultant of either of the aforementioned choices. People will complain about watering down or homogenization but frankly it can't be worse than what you have now (one build to rule them all).

    ALSO +CC Resistance and +Health Points (since it's being counted as a defense) needs to be massively increased and on par with the rest of the choices. In your loot table you're telling me that +30% dodge chance is the same as +CC Resistance.. this is a huge fallacy since +CC Resist does virtually nothing.

    Fix your game PWE, then players will come back to it. And stop pussyfooting around the glaring balance issues between builds. Will some diehards cry a bit that you've nerfed their numbers (even if their builds are working more as intended), yes they'll cry but they'll likely stay if they have this long. But if you want any new player to do more than laugh at this game then you need to cater to a wider array of play experiences.

    Ignore this and every build will be using AoPM/Concentration +100ft Blast (likely Force Cascade) and anyone who doesn't use a version of that build will never prosper. And even those players are wishing in the back of their heads that they didn't get pigeon-holed into the one inescapable build because of your lack of ingenuity, creativity and leadership as developers.

    All of this is due to 1) DRs on offense boosts. 2) Flat Dodge. 3) Natural DRs from Cryptic math.

    EDIT: Ok so basically, the cause of all issues: Cryptic Math. Good job guys :)
  • Options
    itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,778 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    That is...
    Oh god I can Imagine the abuse of Crit builds...what role and what passive were you using?

    Hybrid, Regen, lots of time and patience, an NPC who wouldn't learn to stay away.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Hybrid, Regen, lots of time and patience, an NPC who wouldn't learn to stay away.

    And you were hitting near 9k...noncrit? Crush, what the hell how much did you buff the bonus damage against knock immunity?...Can we have numbers?
  • Options
    itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,778 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    And you were hitting near 9k...noncrit? Crush, what the hell how much did you buff the bonus damage against knock immunity?...Can we have numbers?


    It's a big number, but there's a lot of setup. What this needs is a serious effort to abuse and optimize that output on PTS, because I can't see a way myself to get that number without lots of time not attacking.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    It's a big number, but there's a lot of setup. What this needs is a serious effort to abuse and optimize that output on PTS, because I can't see a way myself to get that number without lots of time not attacking.

    However, bosses that are knock immune, this quickly shortens the setup, that is a problem, really they shouldn't have toyed with kb immunity bonuses, they should've dealt with the actual problem, base damage.
  • Options
    itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,778 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    However, bosses that are knock immune, this quickly shortens the setup, that is a problem, really they shouldn't have toyed with kb immunity bonuses, they should've dealt with the actual problem, base damage.


    I just retested it without retaliation.

    The damage I achieved with enragex8, Demolish with below the belt, and knock immunity was 4407-5300(highest and lowest).

    This makes retaliation the big part of it. In order for a player to get that, they must block with a block replacer that gives that effect, which costs several seconds of time, and getting hit by something.

    Still, we can continue to cut the setup into smaller moments of opportunity cost, and should.
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I just retested it without retaliation.

    The damage I achieved with enragex8, Demolish with below the belt, and knock immunity was 4407-5300(highest and lowest).

    This makes retaliation the big part of it. In order for a player to get that, they must block with a block replacer that gives that effect, which costs several seconds of time, and getting hit by something.

    Still, we can continue to cut the setup into smaller moments of opportunity cost, and should.

    I see, this is a tad more relieving, however I still prefer they revert this change and boost Brick base damage, aka, dealing with the problem.
  • Options
    oyo32oyo32 Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    So far the highest hit I got from Haymaker was around 12k I believe.
    Eight stacks of Enrage + Imbue in Hybrid Mode with a defensive passive (Invul.)
    (Against a knock immune target of course.)

    Anyway, I would like to see Brick given it's damage back as well. But, as for reverting this change? I'm leaning towards no. Keeping in mind that the damage ramp-up we have on Live is barely noticeable, which kinda puts a limit on how powerful an attack like Haymaker can be. Maybe we're getting too much damage ramp-up now, but at least it is noticable.
    AOyJ2f6.png
  • Options
    vincyrevincyre Posts: 88 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    If brick is given it's base damage back...Don't forget Heavy Weapons, cryptic!

    Well...actually, a damage boost doesn't really seem to be super necessary for heavy weapon, but reconsidering some of the mobility lockdown on some powers would be nice!
  • Options
    secksegaisecksegai Posts: 1,354 Arc User
    edited October 2015

    Have you actually checked the numbers? I contemplated def stacking on one of my aopm pvp builds, and adding 40-50+ def added a mere 6% mitigation. There is a massive difference between a def passive and off passives, including quarry.

    Considering how much of the game I've solo'd on squishy ATs, like my cursed before she had resurge and post-alert gear, that's always been the case. But the gameplay on offensively focused (as in running an off passive) characters is generally a bit different thank the survival types.

    Quarry's defensive properties are PURELY dodge/avoid based. Sure you can setup high dodge with the right setup, but at that point you're building very specifically and still won't have the same survivability as a dodge/avoid tank. If I really want to build for survival, I'd be lookin at invul or maybe LR if I'm that focused on survival/toughness. When you consider how often people can run MD, it shouldn't be surprising that people can run offensive passives with higher survivability than pre-alert. However, that cd is where you see the difference between a def passive and an offensive one.

    Here's an example - my PA AT blocking can generally survive Grav's yellow bubble of doom at full or near full health. My Unleashed blocking typically would not - Sure the PA has about 3.4k hp more, but mitigates the hit to around under 8k with defenses, wheras the unleashed takes 10-12k in damage exceeding total hp of 7031.

    Of course those are AT examples. With Freeform and active defenses you can gain tank survivability for short bursts. Quarry and WoTW are both offensive passives that offer defensive properties, but neither on their own will offer the same protection as LR or Invul or Defiance.​​
    Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
  • Options
    oyo32oyo32 Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Was messing around to see just how high I could get Haymaker to hit.
    Results thus far.

    What I used was:
    Circle of Ebon Wrath (R3)
    Aggressor (R3)
    Demolish (Below the Belt adv.)
    Imbue (R3)
    and Unstoppable (R3)
    AOyJ2f6.png
  • Options
    ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    oyo32 wrote: »
    Was messing around to see just how high I could get Haymaker to hit.
    Results thus far.

    What I used was:
    Circle of Ebon Wrath (R3)
    Aggressor (R3)
    Demolish (Below the Belt adv.)
    Imbue (R3)
    and Unstoppable (R3)

    Why did you test against a target ten levels below you ?

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • Options
    oyo32oyo32 Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    ashensnow wrote: »
    Why did you test against a target ten levels below you ?
    Wasn't really paying attention I suppose, I was alternating between the level 30 group and level 40 group. The Haymakers I was dealing ranged from 23k-26k across both level 30 and 40 dummies.

    Also it wasn't really a "test", I was just more or less messing around for a couple minutes because I was bored.
    AOyJ2f6.png
  • Options
    ashensnowashensnow Posts: 2,048 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    oyo32 wrote: »
    Wasn't really paying attention I suppose, I was alternating between the level 30 group and level 40 group. The Haymakers I was dealing ranged from 23k-26k across both level 30 and 40 dummies.

    Also it wasn't really a "test", I was just more or less messing around for a couple minutes because I was bored.

    Thank you.

    'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
  • Options
    angelofcaineangelofcaine Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    spellchekc wrote: »
    Please Please Please convert Dark Aura and the shrink/grow devices to the new aura slot items.

    I know asking to keep them toggled on perma has been discussed and dismissed, but at the very least have them in the aura slots auto-toggling on when combat exits.

    Please
    benevon wrote: »
    I see the aura slots are up, but I'm assuming the auras themselves are not implemented yet for testing?
    Or have I missed something?
    Aura slots are up?
    Yes/No???
    __________________________________________________O.P.T.I.O.N.S.
    | ME | A "Guide" Book" | | I, have a "DREAM! | ( Member since Feb 2008 ) ... ?
    [SIGPIC]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/AngelOfCaine/STILLS/Misc/CO-Sig_01e.png[/SIGPIC]
    Were there any specific reason for that personal attack other than that your opinion differs from mine?
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Aura slots are up?
    Yes/No???

    Aura slots are in it seems, just nothing goes in them...yet.
  • Options
    theapygoostheapygoos Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Crashes still up too, on character list tab through, and on loading map
  • Options
    voiceoftemprusvoiceoftemprus Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I can now get to the Character Select but it crashes soon afterwards, whether I just sit there or try to log into a character.
    _________________________________
    Good-bye, DevSlayer title, you will be missed.
    Still Waiting on: Archer and the Ultimate Ninja!
    Any chance we can finally get the vibro sword laser sword skin?
    "CO once had devs, but they all fled to STO and NW because they feared Caliga." -matixzon
  • Options
    oyo32oyo32 Posts: 141 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    I believe that the damage ramp-up isn't applied to taps, it's only when you begin to charge it, that's when I think the ramp-up is getting applied.

    I could be wrong on that, I'll do some more testing when I get home from work tonight and see what is going on.

    EDIT: Just did some quickie testing, the damage-ramp up IS NOT applied on taps. The damage ramp-up is only applied when you charge a power. However, just like the patch notes say the damage ramp-up does scale with charge time (obviously).

    Okay, finished my little testing session and the finished/cleaned-up the data table for it. Here is a link to the table. For this test, I used the level 40 Test Dummies in the PH, these are the stats of the character I used, I ran in Tank mode, I had no specializations, and all of the attacks were fully charged.
    AOyJ2f6.png
  • Options
    crypticbuxomcrypticbuxom Posts: 4,592 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    If people are hardly ever taking any damage against Gravitar with their uber builds and are complaining that content needs to be tougher, they need to post their builds so the rest of us can understand how the hell they are so indestructible.
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Can we expect a new patch? Preferably one that has additional minor buffs to might aswell as some Night Avenger power revising, preferably one that fixes sneak perception and makes sneak a passive toggle, mechanically.
  • Options
    cascadencecascadence Posts: 505 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Can we expect a new patch? Preferably one that has additional minor buffs to might aswell as some Night Avenger power revising, preferably one that fixes sneak perception and makes sneak a passive toggle, mechanically.

    Knowing Cryptic... if we don't get a patch tomorrow night, don't expect one until Friday night.
    ___________________

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Click up there if you want to find more about the costumes behind my heroines.
  • Options
    blademaster5121blademaster5121 Posts: 956 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    cascadence wrote: »
    Knowing Cryptic... if we don't get a patch tomorrow night, don't expect one until Friday night.

    Yea...Hey Cryptic, we're several patches away, next patch needs Sneak: Perception and Aggression stealth benefits have been dramatically boosted. and also Sneak: No longer detoggles, now when attacked or when attacking your Sneaking will be surpressed, Sneak will automatically reapply after 4 seconds of not attacking or being attacked. (could hange that to 5 seconds, perhaps.)
  • Options
    vincyrevincyre Posts: 88 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Yea...Hey Cryptic, we're several patches away, next patch needs Sneak: Perception and Aggression stealth benefits have been dramatically boosted. and also Sneak: No longer detoggles, now when attacked or when attacking your Sneaking will be surpressed, Sneak will automatically reapply after 4 seconds of not attacking or being attacked. (could hange that to 5 seconds, perhaps.)

    If you go with that, make sure to add that sneak will automatically turn off your energy builder while sneaking.

    You'll also probably want it to ignore your energy builder for those few seconds of required non-attacking to regain stealth.
  • Options
    sagewithbubblessagewithbubbles Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Huh, it's almost like this is an acknowledgement that melee knockback is underperforming...:biggrin:

    (My 'net was down for three days. No internet makes Sage GO CRAZY. Let me have this. :frown: )
    _______________________________
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    _______________________________

    The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
    _______________________________
  • Options
    sagewithbubblessagewithbubbles Posts: 484 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    PTS is still crashing on the character select screen.
    _______________________________
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    _______________________________

    The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
    _______________________________
  • Options
    theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 7,065 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    For those of you talking about aura slots...are they available for silver ppl as well?

    Also I would like to petition that moar psychic like auras are put in place...like Medusa's aura or psychic crowns shown in this clip.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvvDE9dwDU8

    Also please make the AoAC aura available for purchace...:biggrin:

    CO needs more mentalist stuffs!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • Options
    ukatoenasniukatoenasni Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Huh, it's almost like this is an acknowledgement that melee knockback is underperforming...:biggrin:

    (My 'net was down for three days. No internet makes Sage GO CRAZY. Let me have this. :frown: )

    Man, I can relate to that. I'm a mess without the internet. D: The only thing I can think.. of.. that's worse...
    PTS is still crashing on the character select screen.

    ...oh. Yeah, can we have some more discussion of this sort of thing, please? Maybe a special, dedicated thread for it? It's a bit worrisome that some people can't even test this stuff, and it has the nagging quality of likely preventing these people from playing on Live if it goes forward in some fashion.

    [SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
  • Options
    theapygoostheapygoos Posts: 384 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Man, I can relate to that. I'm a mess without the internet. D: The only thing I can think.. of.. that's worse...



    ...oh. Yeah, can we have some more discussion of this sort of thing, please? Maybe a special, dedicated thread for it? It's a bit worrisome that some people can't even test this stuff, and it has the nagging quality of likely preventing these people from playing on Live if it goes forward in some fashion.

    ill make the thread for it, however, im sitll goign to continue to say it in here.
    im personally rather irritated that its been almost a wholee month of testing with these new powers and i haven't been able to give ANY constructive feedback, let alone if the issue hits live, so many people would not eb able to log in that either 1) youd have to scramble and finally address teh issue, bringing down the shard for emergency maintenece, or 2, do a rollback to the previous version which, when you guys DID roll back pts to the version live currently is, we were able to log in!
  • Options
    ukatoenasniukatoenasni Posts: 224 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Well, I more meant a dev-supported one where they, yanno. Actually ask for some help on it. IIRC, there's been one or two player-made threads on it and still no real discussion*. Whatever they're doing to investigate it clearly isn't working, as it's still happening.

    I'm unaffected, but I can definately see where this is both frustrating and as indicated previously, very worrisome if whatever they did to the PTS shard to cause this somehow bleeds over into Live. That's kind of some serious stuff.

    (*CLARIFICATION: Lots of player discussion on it, but no idea if anything we're doing is actually helpful in the direction of actually getting this fixed. Player discussion is good, and I support it, but for something that's actively preventing people from accessing stuff to test (a) and could prevent them from playing at all (b) is kind of a big deal to not have at least some dev discussion on. :/ )

    [SIGPIC]Also, this poster rambles.[/SIGPIC]
  • Options
    nisdiddumsnisdiddums Posts: 91 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Greetings!

    We will be performing maintenance on PTS to update the shard with a new build that will contain the following updates:

    -Hi-pan boss fight tuning to make the fight more manageable.
    -Added a failure condition timer of 10 minutes.
    -Ambient audio added to the map.
    -Added voice-over and cutscenes.
    -Updated dragon character model.
    -Visual updates to the environment.

    Maintenance should be complete at around 7:00pm PTS.

    Thanks!
  • Options
    flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,408 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    Any Nemesis System bug fixes?
    ..yea, i thought so...
    CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
    And playing by myself since Aug 2009
    Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
    tumblr_n7qtltG3Dv1rv1ckao1_500.gif
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!
  • Options
    itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,778 Arc User
    edited July 2012
    flyingfinn wrote: »
    Any Nemesis System bug fixes?
    ..yea, i thought so...


    *picks up box from desk*

    *looks down at one of the selling points on it.*

    Yep....
    Brou in Cryptic games.
Sign In or Register to comment.