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Aura of Primal Majesty bug questions and addressing Toxicity at Cosmic Fights.
guardiannexus
Posts: 142 Arc User
I wrote this but I think I deleted this topic by accident, fixing a grammar mistake.
If it is just being reviewed and will pop up I will leave it to forum mods to delete
one of the threads. With that out the way, the topic.
Since I have made a build that uses Aura of Primal Majesty (AoPM after this point) for
my main hero. The goal was just stats bonuses for damage and theme and help out a bit when I can with a bonus of stats. Since I changed it, I have been getting some very vocal and toxic communication when fighting at Cosmic fights for the past few months for not filling an expected role, overlapping someone else's AoPM build, and/or "ruining content."
So I have been told/demanded to do many things to appease these people, like remove my passive been harassed when I don't comply, for the entirety of the fights. This occurs on a weekly basis and I have blocked/reported many a person. Yet the toxic behavior remains.
Now the arguments are:
1) Hybrid role of AoPM locks out block somehow, sometimes.
2) Hybrid role of AoPM overdrives the effects of the Support role effects of AoPM.
3) Hybrid role of AoPM will make a wipe scenario occur at a cosmic fight.
With all of them big mad about it I figured there would be a bug reports en mass by now and a thread but did not see anything so here we are. Any eta on the fixes if they need it? Anything I can do to report the toxic crap other than ignore people or report them?
Thanks in advance.
If it is just being reviewed and will pop up I will leave it to forum mods to delete
one of the threads. With that out the way, the topic.
Since I have made a build that uses Aura of Primal Majesty (AoPM after this point) for
my main hero. The goal was just stats bonuses for damage and theme and help out a bit when I can with a bonus of stats. Since I changed it, I have been getting some very vocal and toxic communication when fighting at Cosmic fights for the past few months for not filling an expected role, overlapping someone else's AoPM build, and/or "ruining content."
So I have been told/demanded to do many things to appease these people, like remove my passive been harassed when I don't comply, for the entirety of the fights. This occurs on a weekly basis and I have blocked/reported many a person. Yet the toxic behavior remains.
Now the arguments are:
1) Hybrid role of AoPM locks out block somehow, sometimes.
2) Hybrid role of AoPM overdrives the effects of the Support role effects of AoPM.
3) Hybrid role of AoPM will make a wipe scenario occur at a cosmic fight.
With all of them big mad about it I figured there would be a bug reports en mass by now and a thread but did not see anything so here we are. Any eta on the fixes if they need it? Anything I can do to report the toxic crap other than ignore people or report them?
Thanks in advance.
Post edited by kaiserin#0958 on
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Lots of times an underperforming AoPM hybrid won't cause massive headaches because there will be enough super good players to carry everyone over the problems caused by the hybrid AoPM, but at non-peak times it can cause a problem.
2) is a real thing and if there is a Support AoPM player you might be better off unslotting your own AoPM to benefit from theirs. It feels like it's been a decade since AoPM was allowed to stack.
3) should not be a concern unless the players in question need the crutch of a focused AoPM Support. Still, as per above your character is probably better off not running AoPM themselves in that situation.
Everyone should arrive expecting to help the TEAM succeed, in their own way.
As has been explained, the points you address have been addressed by others as to why they are requesting/demanding that you, and all others, conform to a certain amount, so that the encounter can be completed in a timely fashion.
Many will offer advice without being asked first. Plenty will give helpful advice when asked. It's up to you to decide on how you will act upon this advice.
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
I am gonna do my best to word this correctly, It may be written incorrectly, so I am gonna need some feedback as to how it lands for meaning to clarify:
The principal fallacy of the argument, is my build should only be "to give stats" as a contribution in team content due to passive power choice. Because, "my own way" is being arbitrarily chosen for me with said toxic behavior based upon a ill informed assumptions of what it means to have said passive.
And if I can not do that it is okay to harass me since I am not going along with a small group of individuals who have issues with their builds and/or just want more stats to make it "faster." From what I am experiencing, it is presented as it's okay and justified if lets the other guy get to their goal faster and not teamwork.
I have ran every cosmic with this build and team oriented content in the game with no issues other than harassment. At Eidolon of Destruction, which this is the most prevalent of the toxic stuff, I have ran it about 12 times to a completion. 9 of the times I did not remove my passive or changed my build and we succeeded. One time I took off my passive and we all wiped. The other times I went all in to support and we did not complete the timer. So there may be something other that stats that I contribute in the fights and this all boils down to wanting to place blame by people with emotional problems with failing.
Also, on a last note related: I don't ask for help nor belittle anyone for their build choices or ability to perform, in anyway, in team play content. I just work with what I see and try to help where I can. I find it rude to offer help passively aggressively so the above situation (it's okay and justified if lets the other guy get to their goal faster and not teamwork) will be more "palpable."
You were carried hard. Those runs succeeded despite your negative contribution, not because of anything you might have done. But you wouldn't know because you have some kind of selective interpretation of numbers, and ignored anyone who tried to explain things to you.
I don't want this to devolve. I want proper dialogue so I will not go into all the provocations presented in the quote. However when you die your score goes down in correlational of how much damage you do to targets, shielding you did, control effects held, or healing you are doing, or threat you take. This is as far as I can understand about it since the how and why, other than damage.
Again I write this: If me being there stopped you from winning, which it seems to not do since that shows the completion, then there is a problem. I have done nothing wrong other than say I don't want to change my passive at this time, in a respectful manner. I Have not started an event early that will compromise timing of the total even. I have not ridiculed anyone for not being "good" or actively or passively harassed anyone's build choice. Where I scored did not matter to completing the content. It may have not been time optimized for your liking but It did not stop you from doing what you wanted: grind the content for the maguffin you want to.
Yet, I am a problem because I did not want to conform to demands to change my build and my score was bad in your screenshot.
Lastly, your basket ball analogy is wrong. It would be more accurate to say I don't play well and you wanted something else in my place and then attacked me from not doing well as some other person would.
Honestly I think a zero point advantage that takes off presence scaling for auras in hybrid or removing scaling entirely from hybrid mode would fix this issue.
There are plenty of people who play poorly, and thats fine. There are plenty of people who score low, and that's fine too. You go beyond playing poorly and passively make everyone else play worse. If you don't see the distinction between these situations, thats willful ignorance. All of the posturing, victim playing and rationalization you do doesn't change how the game works.
Again this proves my point.
Also you see the number and assume what I was doing. If that was the last one I did, cause I see starbound's name there, that was the one I did not complete. I left since the harassment was till the final phase and I died by a pillar near the chair side. So I logged off to cook.
Edit 2:
Also...if a team content needs 100+ in all the stats of 20 people, plus have individuals min maxed to what they already have, to even try it- something is wrong with the balance of that fight. Also I can't effect what buttons other press, there internet connection, nor choices. So I can't make anyone play worse than they do normally.
So my build, which gives a group +19 stats, 3% more crit, 300 healing when hit, 50 res, debuffs enemy damage by 20% minimum, gives bastion shiled, knock res, places illumination on enemies, and does between 5 to 10k damage is not enough.
The mechanics of Aura application are flawed, but the problem has a workaround – and until it’s fixed, we’re forced to use the workaround when possible, or have mixed performance when a Support AoPM is present along with a Hybrid AoPM.
Wall of Text & Images Warning
With help, I've prepared some image to illustrate what's going on because it isn't immediately apparent. Different players will see different effects. Images are in Spoiler Tags to keep them from breaking/bloating the page. Click to see examples!
Support AoPM: This stacks with Hybrid AoPM in a predictable, stable fashion. Stats will fluctuate twice as it recalculates your passive when the auras cross over. The gif is on a loop, you can ignore the stat "resetting".
Hybrid AoPM: Identical to Support AoPM, but with different stat arrangements. Stats are stable after the initial recalculation. The gif is on a loop, you can ignore the stat "resetting".
Everyone Else: This is where things go wrong. The two auras reapply themselves alternately (if there are more than two, it cycles through those as well). Stats fluctuate by 80, and the Support AoPM here isn’t even as strong as a dedicated PRE stacker, which may result in fluctuations of over 100. This is like having three or more additional mods. The Hybrid AoPM is low enough that it's almost like not having the bonus at all whenever the game decides that it's the one you get.
Example is a small MP4 this time: https://i.imgur.com/pfn1hLF
I’ll try to dissect some of the issues this creates.
Health: This is one of the most evident. 80 CON amounts to 1200 HP (more with Protector Tree’s Bulwark). For DPS and Supports this can be life or death from random damage (blocked fireball ticks, lava pools, baby breath, phase 3 Ice Storm even while blocked, etc.). For a tank, this is a non-trivial amount of HP, especially newer/weaker/emergency tanks. No tank, whether a second-stringer or top-tier is going to want to toss away 1200 HP or more. Having Max HP randomly change is also...undesirable, considering how hard bosses hit in this game. Their healers also appreciate the larger buffer, but not when the buffer is unreliable.
Energy: This is also a major sticking point. AoPM hits all three “energy” stats. END provides pool size, and REC scales most unlocks, and INT provides a bit of discount. Combined with energy gain from Toggles, this is a massive improvement in energy management. I’m of the opinion that a build should have its energy managed with or without AoPM, but it’s important to consider that it’s the difference between running a “normal” rotation and “going ham” for some builds. Which plays into the next point…
Damage: The stat fluctuations cause damage bonuses from Toggles, Passives, and the stat effects themselves (STR melee, EGO ranged, Crit % on non-DEX builds) to also fluctuate. If you look at the numbers on your tooltips going up and down, this doesn’t appear to be that much at a glance, but adds up when taken in totality across all the players present. Consider it a ripple effect.
Looping back to the above point regarding Energy, some builds can shift from a rotation required to keep energy triggers going to a rotation that involves more primary attacks. Builds that are especially energy-hungry also benefit greatly, and may be able to burst both harder and more often without risking falling into a lull. Lastly, fresh level 40 players and functionally inferior builds (which I have no grudge against on their own time; play the solo content as you enjoy it) often see a HUGE improvement to their energy management. They are able to actually attain a normal damage rotation by having their build fixed with “brute force” stat stacking.
This is where it gets a little more complicated, and specific fight mechanics need to be considered. It’s not necessarily about just going a little faster; that's a side effect. The real meat of it has to do with checks. With Tombs going down relatively easily (more of an attention check) and Hearts being CC’d (changing the check mechanic), Teleiosaurus is the easiest example.
Momma’s check requires damage dealt to be Player Count x 10,000 in 5 seconds. This amounts to 2000 DPS per player engaged. Some Tank and Support builds will pass their portion of the check, but most will not. The Baby Tank will be otherwise engaged. Supports will often be busy healing previous damage (especially if Baby and Momma both spammed area attacks just prior), and players that are new/learning simply may not yet know the mechanics of the fight and their own builds well enough to cover their portion of the check. This shifts the weight of the “2000 DPS per player” to substantially fewer players than are actually engaged in most runs. They may have to do upwards of 4000 DPS to compensate for the above.
Having gotten into the basic Cosmics over the past year, I can comfortably say that I’ve observed runs where even with some of the stronger DPS players present, the lack of Support AoPM was the deciding factor. A player switching to it or joining the fight later with it can tip the scale from not-quite-passing to reliably passing. All of the above effects combined and distributed across the party can make or break the checks.
Eidolon also has its orb checks, so it applies there too.
Other Auras: This is less pronounced and a bit more nuanced. Everything scales with stats, and that means the other three Auras are in turn amplified further by the presence of Support AoPM. AoAC and AoED, like AoPM itself, act as force multipliers. A rising tide lifts all boats. And Support AoPM makes those stronger, meaning that it has a double knock on effect. In the case of Radiant Protection, the resistance bonus scales appreciably with the additional stats from Support AoPM, making healers jobs easier, allowing them to DPS more themselves, and reducing tank damage further (again, newer/weaker/emergency tanks benefit greatly from this).
I hope that this gives a sufficient view of the issue at hand. Of course, if there’s no Support AoPM, Hybrid AoPM is literally better than nothing.
As an aside, this also means that the server is having to rapidly recalculate every present player’s stat scaling effects every tick, creating more work for the server during an already busy encounter. That probably doesn’t do it any favors.
So to make sure I got it: due to the server reapplying the aura buff at different intervals
stats change wildly and build that rely on it see more an issue than those that don't and
its not due to bugs favoring the hybrid version over the support? So the hybrid only does the
reapply once while the other one does it twice in the same interval?
is that correct?
Everyone else has their stats on a roller coaster that never ends. The auras "pulse" faster than the buff fades, so that it doesn't fall off midcombat. As a result of the two auras pulsing, they flip-flop their application on players not using PM as their passive.
This can produce some unpredictable situations like suddenly not having extra HP buffer when it would've been useful, max energy tanking just long enough for the game to decide you don't have enough of it to run your burst cycle (and getting a "not enough energy" error), and generally deteriorating the effect of a Support AoPM player that has invested heavily in making their character provide that buff.
This also brings to light the sad case of the Grimoire. An overall serviceable AT that presents Hybrid AoPM as a viable option because it's a default AT. It really needs a look at, because Grimoires will also produce this effect -- usually without ever knowing -- and never even had a choice to take a different passive OR change their role.
Edited for clarity.
Okay short and sweet this time:
1) The unpredictable situation the cycling provides is an issue and I understand how it is effecting them.
2) Big mad Jerks with issues with my passive build can still kick rocks. However I will stay away from the cosmics unless asked by a buddy that needs help or there is a request for bodies and I have time.
3) if you need AopM to be safe in a fight, you will wipe if it goes down anyway. if content needs 100+ in all the stats of 20 people, plus have individuals min maxed on their own to what they already have, to even try it- something is wrong with the balance of that fight or the team in general.
As for fixes to said power:
1) I wish I knew why its can't just stack like it used to and I wish I had a O point advantage to remove the scaling with Pre in hybrid but increases the buff in support.
From what I recall, one group of players decided to try out stacking 5x AoPM in a team and the player with the best gear reported that his AoPM gave +700ish to everyone (due to the looping effect of each player's PRE being affected by the other player's AoPM). Now imagine having to balance team content to everyone having ~3500 in all stats. That type of content would basically mean that no one would want to start without having 4+ AoPM players present. And if team content wasn't tuned to stacked AoPM, you'd potentially see stacked teams obliterate open world bosses fast enough to be able to monopolize them.
They should change the Hybrid icon from a Gear to a Question Mark, because that's what one really tells people what they're doing when in Hybrid.
The tuning of encounter mechanics is a debate unto itself and I could fill an essay about that; I'm a fan of FFXIV's mechanically complex fights rather than brute force checks.
Winged has a good explanation as to why they don't stack anymore. It just broke encounters in the opposite direction. There was a time where stacked AoPM and AoRP trivialized every possible encounter, and it's what brought on the removal of stacking and separation of Support and Hybrid modes.
It's probably about time to reunite the functions of auras into a single effect instead of role-based as well as move from PRE to cumulative super stats. The personal effect should always be stronger to encourage aura use, IMO. Run under the assumption that the majority of players are selfish, and have the personal effect be the greater one with the group effect being ~75% of the personal effect. More players running auras, those players gain improved personal performance, less likely to have runs with missing auras, everybody wins. But again, I would write a page on rebalancing auras.
There are a handful of niche builds that can make moderate use of Hybrid role, but they're few and far between. Dedicated roles are almost always the way to go.
Can't talk for anyone else but I do it since I thought I would not get flack for anything from people who assume a role you have is the build you do. Example I had a invl bulid and used protector specialization to give me more hp and def. However, since I had a shield over my head I got people mad that I did not want to tank for them at cosmics or feared I would draw threat from the main tank, etc. So, If I have a cross on my head, said randoms think I should heal so I chose a jack of all trades of hybrid so as not to move into the mojo of the more specialized roles of individuals. However, now it seems to have moved from roles to passives. I am not support didn't want to be support, hence why my role does not have a cross on its head and I am doing damage.
Its like being in a line to get something and there is a person behind you yelling at you for going to slow (because they want it faster), then another chimes in to as a passive aggressive peacemaker (since they don't like drama or have an agenda a well), and then another who just wants a spectacle for their personal amusement.
Honestly, I think all this angst should be used as an opportunity. We run tests to show the problems with the aura cycling and the balance of the fights and post all the data and screens from the live servers' battles in this thread. It would be enough live feedback to come up with a better solution.
Edited for clarity
So the aura cycling is working as intended to make the encounters harder/challenging/engaging and there are people who relied upon it not catching up to the change. And said people are ones greatly effected by the cycling. That make sense now that you mention how they used to stack.
This is way more interesting that I thought it would be when I made this thread.
The cycling is a byproduct of the current implementation of auras as of a few months ago. It's not so much a "bug" or "feature" as it is an unintended consequence. It's not part of encounter tuning.
The cycling also happens with multiple Support AoPM's present. The difference is that the fluctuation is +/-10ish with multiple Supports. Small enough that it doesn't matter. Hybrid produces +/-80 or even +/-100, which is substantial.
I could go into some examples of what the fluctuations do to my own builds, but I doubt anyone wants another essay in the thread.
I would. I also think the devs could use it to tune the problem. Maybe a decay rate between each pulse? -So the transitions from aura to aura is not so abrupt.
How about this?
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1217905/passive-auras
I like it.
this is not my idea but my buddy came up with this:
Set the broadcast range to 0 by way of a hybrid mode or with an advantage that why it only effects the individual and not the one broadcasting the highest output.
It will fix the issue of too much and the rubber banding of the stats.
Edit 2
I read that wrong. Idk about the support guy getting less stats. The whole goal of the passive is for stats. So getting less may affect the healing and things the support would do. Still like the broadcast aspect of the idea though.
Sure, this can be argued for and against, but it's MY aura, ffs!
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
There are a few ways to do the nerf to aura stacking differently,
- like passive interacting to increase the range of the highest one
- Making the Presence increase the rate of the reapply in support role.
- Making the broadcast of the aura an advantage of some sort[
Or something elseHowever, at the end of the day, the content can still be done with a semi cohesive team that knows the fights. So all that is needed is some builds just need tweaking to work without needing to rely on AoPM in the cosmic fights and people who will share their knowledge of the parameters of the fights.
Or you could still be mad for not getting the buff amount you want.
So the AoPM does not generate the buff, which lasts for 5 seconds on the other person, unless I attack or affect another player. like a buff or something.
So... it seems that since I am always attacking my buff is favored because I am the most active. huh...
Edit. Seems like it stays on when my team member is in combat or resets like gamabreaker showed.
Not sure if this is meant as an attack or inquiry/statement, but I will treat is as an inquiry/statement.
There seems to be this duality of “bring what you have to the fight and do your best” with “but do it only this way because it helps the 'team' or you are bad/not helpful if you do it any other way” attached. However, the “team” part boils down to the individual person who wants it- the buff and the "teamwork" is just a mask for their own goals for their individual builds.
You can look at the other posts, like yours, above that in this tread that presents this.
It boils down to a stat buffer that was liked, as it was, now working differently. The workaround to keep this nice buff, by the very vocal minority, is to vilify, verbally attack, or passive aggressively coerce someone change their builds for the vocal individuals, even though the fights in questions don't need the buff to work at all to win.
So you can do what you suggested above and take your passive off and work with that; however, you should not expect anyone else to do that because you want it to happen or believe that is the only way.
There is no "minority" that uses AoPM as a crutch. Anyone playing the game should love a boost of all their stats. Including you.
If AoPM was just a self boost there would be no problem. But, that's not the reality of the game. And expecting the Dev team to fix it for you isn't going to happen any time soon. So, when people ask you to alter your play style to help the MANY (including you) It's not unreasonable.
This is, IMO, all in context of Eido. That fight needs players to bring their best for the best chance of a success. If you want to get by at Kiga-whatever. If you want to get by at Ape-whatever. If you want to get by at Dino-whatever (as long as there's enough high dps to cover you). But, at Eido big buffs matter.
Okay lets see if I can explain this all again stratluver.
1) Didn't ask for a fix, I just suggested a few and summarized others presented in this thread.
2)Aopm is a passive ability for a build. What that build is does not follow what the passive can do. If follows the internal logic of the build for utility of the build. So a build can be built for the sole purpose to grant stats or not. Mine does not but you get more. Just not as much "more" as others. And how that is applied now to others is not something I have any control over
3) Aopm as a crutch seems to have been a problem, or the application to others would have not changed. it is not the only buff that can be applied and should not be the only one that matters. If it does, then changes should occur- like they did.
4) The entire crux of the argument against the use of my passive, in the above mention fights are a buffer for others to have more stats to be as optimized as they want for the sake of them gaining items from the battle/ boss store. When they can't get that extra at the level they want, those individuals get toxic toward the noncompliance.
I like data so I suggest a test that we could do to show all the problems (or non issues) that the implementation of the new Aopm buffs. On test or live.
The parameters:
So if this buff issue is a detrimental as the emotional reasoning is having some believe it is, it will be backed up with hard data for a change to be implemented by the devs. If it is not, then we will know.
Since you've received a lot of feedback, it should be clear the goal to "help out a bit when I can with a bonus of stats" is actually doing the opposite. There are also better build options to get "bonuses for damage". I'd recommend reevaluating your goals for your build and make changes, if you're interested in contributing to the success in endgame team content. Folks on the forums can help with build options.
CO allows anyone to make good or bad build choices and the Devs likely aren't going to make changes to compensate for poor choices unless it reaches the level of griefing. If you're really attached to that build, I'd bring an alt that's better suited to the content.
It looks to me like the @OP is reading, understanding, and providing good feedback themselves.
I've done plenty of non-Eido cosmic fights where no aura was present. They went well or poorly, depending on what various players were doing. Such as blocking instead of dpsing. Or just not enough dps.
And, at Dino is the only one of the 3 usuals that has a DPS check, so good builds and knowing the mechanics are essential. During DPS check, everyone EXCEPT the Baby tank and the 1 healer healing baby tank SHOULD be doing dps to Dino. As pointed out above about the average "10k done over 5 seconds by everyone nearby". Sure, not everyone is going to meet this requirement, so others have to be doing way more.
Which is why some players get toxic when passes fail and fingers need to POINT.
-=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
I am gonna assume you mean that the stats I am giving is not enough for some and not that I am giving a negative amount of stats, since that is not the case. But I would like to understand your "bonus for damages," without getting to off topic. Do you mean the the status effect cash out with a large power? I do that, just not in that way most think it needs to work, not like how ego attacks do it or bleed ones work, since I use mostly crushing type.
On an unrelated note to the topic, are energy attacks all projectile attacks like force and the elemental pools, darkness, and power armor or just one of those?
I think the last point is what I am dealing with the most. "players get toxic when passes fail and fingers need to POINT." Most of the times it's a person who need to take anger out on someone to feel better. In practice is it not a very good way to live life, but it happens. A reason "must" be assigned by the very hardest of the hard core and it can't be anything that they did.
"The Healers didn't heal enough" or "Dps is not doing their jobs"or something else.
The issue with the Ediolon fight is the knowledge checks of the fight. Not everyone present knows what they are universally and it is assumed that every one there just knows.
However, preemptive claims that I wrote above, "a bug that favors your Aopm," and the like, are floated as possible reasons to fail without anything backing it up. All conjecture wrapped like fact and dog piled upon a single point. And when those thing are contested by facts, vitriol and insults of character are projected.
Yes, stats bounce up and down from two auras. However, what a person starts with is not anyone else's choice. That is a individual build issue and even then it still does not effect the final result. Team knowledge and coordination does.
If someone is new to a mission/fight they really should ask if there is anything they need to know before it starts. There are usually people there happy to explain the mechanics to new people. Just coming in new and doing "whatever" is not the best way to contribute. Just the other day, a person new to ape had to ask why they kept dying. I think it was because they did not know they needed to block when getting out of the lava (but not sure). If that person had asked about mechanics before hand, they would have known and spared themselves frustration.
One thing with Eido is that it can take a good amount of time to rally enough people to participate and get though it. Unlike cosmics (which only fail when players bail and for which there are no pre-fight setups to complete), Eido can fail because of player mistakes. It can be very frustrating to spend an hour rallying people who are capable of adequately filling roles, doing the 3 OMs and then fail in the phase of the Eido fight.
I can understand that. The sunken cost fallacy a person could have and those that like to optimize would converge in a nasty way with a failure. Still I know that when it happens it is not good behavior for team cohesion and more about catharsis in a hostile way.
Well I think that is all of it, unless a dev wants to talk about what the leaderboard for open missions reports/give credit or the goals of the Aura apply change where/are.
We have had a clear dissection of the issues pertaining to this thread. We have shown both sides of the argument with the goal to understand both sides, mostly. And we also got some good info on how it works now. Thank you gammabreaker.
So, after all this here is where I stand on this stuff:
I totally get the frustration of losing and wanting to find something to assign blame to. It is not okay; however, to preemptively point fingers or harass anyone because you can't get your (a general "your" and not a particular person) way. As far as I can understand, the changes to all Auras are to make them work in line with an internal difficulty curve that the Devs want and, until that changes in someway, that is the new normal to deal with.
It won't be the last that some random person, who really really want a thing, entitles themselves to become hostile when things don't go their way. But I hope that at least there is evidence to denounce some current clams.
Thank you all for your time.
Will just pop in and say this; I think considering that you have had the issue with bringing Hybrid AoPM to Open World encounters explained in detail and why it causes a negative reaction when it is brought to content which falls under:
- The Demon of the Lost (Kigatillik)
- Rampage of the Teleiosaurus (Teleiosaurus)
- The Mountain Walks (Qwyjibo)
- Eidolon of Destruction
I would think your take would be a bit different. Perhaps something along the lines of:
"Now that I understand the impact of Hybrid AoPM, when attending Cosmics on my Hybrid AoPM, I'll unslot so that the performance of myself and others is not adversely affected."
I say that as someone who used to be Hybrid AoPM. Whilst the problem is not necessarily you running ""Hybrid AoPM" but moreso rooted in "the reality of the mechanics of bringing Hybrid AoPM to larger team encounters",
I am not sure it is beyond the pale to ask a player / build that is unintentionally (if they don't know) or intentionally (if they have had this explained to them and still persist) to modify their behaviour to improve outcomes for everyone, themselves included.
This isn't me (or anyone else) saying that people being abusive towards others is appropriate, however if something has been noted to be an issue and still the issue persists, not everyone will make the decision to ignore the player because that player's actions can compromise a run of content.
Gammabreaker's breakdown is quite useful and the gif showing what Hybrid AoPM vs Support AoPM does to others is pretty damning.
https://i.imgur.com/pfn1hLF.mp4
Auras have been amended before and the community for once, showed up en masse on forums and were very vocal about the proposed change and managed to stop them being butchered. Auras will likely eventually be changed, specifically how they work in Hybrid Role due to how problematic they are.
Reaching that point is clearly not easy to find a suitable solution, so I wouldn't particularly expect an immediate solution. For now it is expected that people will amend how they operate in light information which shows the impact of Hybrid Auras on teamed content where Support Auras are also present.
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I have no issue with the hybrid Aopm at any other cosmic other than Ediolon. There were no issue presented to me other than some people demanding from me to do something without clear context or hyperbolic flawed reasoning at first. Then they become spiteful, through the rest of the fights mind you (from Slug to portal breaker to Ediolon) as those like that do, in their continued harassment.
You are right that it is not beyond the pale to ask to remove your passive for the team. As I said, I did that at the request of the Tank at that time. My stats were fine at but the build did not act the same as with the passive was on (also for full transparency it could have been the emotional toil it was having on me dealing with the vitriol). That run we did not do enough damage in the run and we all died in the first orb phase.
The next time I ran the fight in support (51+ stats to everyone else with 79 for myself) with a semi healing build for two other times. One with Electrical siphon, healing for about 2-3k when I could proc it. Then one with the Strength based healing power with vainglorious advantage that healed for 4k a second with my build. On each of these builds I had a passive device that healed when I went low heath, and that dark wand for illumination so other could heal on attack. This is all on top of my other resistance debuffs and buffs my build does.
Guess what?. We all died the first time, when I did it with electrical siphon.
And on the second I didn't even place even though I kept people alive.
I then tried support but with chest beam ultimate. I figured that I could just do ranged damage and debuff the enemy by 20/40% resistances. That mission did not have enough damage and we failed the last phase with a wipe.
So then I just did it normally with no build changes other than chest beam sometimes and howl on others and we succeeded 9 times. Some runs were with the same people in game that would run them. Others were not. Hate for my choices was pointed at me regardless during and after we won. I ran it on a separate melee based hero, with no aopm and the only difference in success was the time. For the 12mins, for the Ediolon fight timer, it was was approx a 1min completion difference faster. So that is why I did not come to your conclusion or the others conclusion on this matter. My insert point to this whole things is different than you. My builds are not support builds. They can be modified a bit, as I shown in this post, but my build works when I use it in hybrid.
Stats will not make a team better. It just something for people to scapegoat failure with, from my observations.
Also, I noticed no one in this thread has said anything about how if you have multiple AopMs and one goes down you still have one others and it allows a rally for a bit to keep up with the damage of the defeated hero until that person is revived.
Okay. Might be because Eidolon has a set amount of people who can show up that is much lower than the zone cap for other Cosmics, so the somewhat detrimental effects of Hybrid AoPM vs Support AoPM are severely watered down.
Even if you stuck in Hybrid role and just removed AoPM, I think you'd have been better off. If you are primarily damage based, just swap to melee or ranged role in future. You shouldn't be forced into support role unless you are stacking PRE...if you are and you stay in Hybrid that's a whole different issue.
"Stats will not make a team better." That's definitely an interesting take, especially considering what has been explained in this thread.
I think when it is clear that higher stats generally improve performance, I don't think I can agree.
Probably because it isn't especially relevant. Usually there's 2-3 AoPM supports at a Cosmic, if you throw in a Hybrid AoPM build that causes stat loops and variance in performance (as shown in the gif)...I'm not sure how useful that would be. (referring to Eido here, other Cosmics have a cap which allow that specific issue to be compensated for.)
As someone who still has a few "true" Hybrid builds and loves them...I suppose my time spent playing CO has caused me to have a different opinion on things.
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Also there is a simple workaround to all this. I just don't team up at cosmics. I mean I have 14K+ in hp and 100+ resistance, can heal fairly well, and can put down about 9k in a shield on myself amongst other things. They can get all the bonuses they need so they can feel what they feel and point at all the things that could have went wrong and I don't have to deal with the crap.
It is truly annoying to deal with this when it does not effect a damn thing in the long run (not speaking to you ravenforce, just in general). I just want to get my gold recognition and and other currencies in peace without having to explain the flawed logic of all of this every time I run a cosmic.
Having the performance, in a team, before the changes to now (with the stat cycling) would not feel good, I get that. But feelings are not facts. The fact is even if I am not there or if I am, if the team is not cohesive they will lose. No matter how many stats a team is buffed with, damage they can do on paper, resistances given, or healing provided.
Another interesting take. If you broaden it to throwing newbies into Cosmics with Meta DPS builds and no explanation of how to use them then sure, this holds true.
But in practice and more importantly, what this whole thread is speaking around is Eido and generally speaking...people who attend Eido know what they are doing or at the very least, how to use their build. So improved performance would make the team better.
I mean, that gif that shows you the detrimental effect of Hybrid AoPM when Support AoPM is also active isn't a feeling, its an observable fact. That's what people have an issue with.
This part however, seems to be straying from "Why Hybrid AoPM causes issues" to "Team cohesion and player competence" which are two very different topics.
However, judging by what you have written here, I wouldn't be surprised if you've experienced players questioning your own competence for bringing Hybrid AoPM to certain encounters, which could be why you've brought this up (IDK just guessing).
But bringing it back to the main reason behind this thread...team cohesiveness is a moot point.
If you have a look at what happens in practice...which is that people are completing content and you sometimes have issues with scoring (based on what you've explained here and the contents/screenshot in the fifth post).
All that being said, it seems like you've found a solution which is to not team up.
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The success or failure of those eidolons you attended had nothing to do with whatever iteration of your build you chose to go with. As it is, you have placed your fate in the hands of people who have chosen to bring builds that are needed for the fight. They carried you to victory, or were unable to do so. The anecdotal examples you brought up are too small a number to have any statistical value.
Do I seem toxic to you? If I do maybe reality is toxic to the bubble you are living in.
If you want to help your friend at cosmics, don't go.
If you want help with a build that might work better in group content, feel free to hit me up in game.
The "detrimental" aspect is the notion that I disagree with. The thing that is "taken away" is high stats all the time,which seems like the goal of the devs. All base builds abilities/powers of all players present are unaffected. The extra amount is the only thing that goes up and down. Now this part is just a deduction, so mileage may vary. I think all open mission fights are balanced to work without team up so an encounter/boss would have a base line of difficultly to design from. I make this deduction on the point that we have the option to enter into a large team to share buffs and not a requirement like team encounters and rampages.
As for the scoring "issues", I do think that is the metric presented as my "failure" in a cosmic team or something, It was not clear as to how it appears in this thread. However, that is not my issue at all.
I don't know what the metrics that are used it is using to score from. I think its damage, healing shields and control effects augmented by a role based threshold. However I don't know what those thresholds numerically are to hit them. But that's been bugging me for years at this point. If you know, please share. This does not effect my overall stance on this matter though.
Yep that is the intention. Just tested it today. Seems like less input lag as well.
Also for all those just looking at the thread and not putting things down. If you all have issues with the implementation of how the auras stack, you really should add your two cents: Any possible changes that will work better, or clear data driven examples of individual effects to your builds. I am still just seeing assumptions a build becomes worse at cosmics because of a hybrid AoPm is making stats bounce from large to small. But no real evidence, shy of the conclusion of a build sucks now without high AoPM, due to the meta it was built under.
It is entirely your right to disagree with the notion, but that does not take away from the very real and observable fact that it is, in fact, detrimental.
It is quite similar to me bringing a...7k HP Defiance build to any given Endgame encounter and demanding that I get maximum support as the main tank when clearly, judging by my HP, I am so clearly undergeared and/or inappropriate for the role of main tank that I am jeopardizing an entire run (and the time investment of at least 15 other players) by attempting to steal aggro from a "qualified" main tank. Regardless of if that is my build and I love it, it is detrimental, because if I also have threat gear and maybe I have invested alot more into my form power than a regular tank would, I am running the real risk of stealing aggro which could crash the whole run.
Now, this may sound like an extreme example and to a degree it is, but by messing with a support player's AoPM, you are messing with their investment and their role as Hybrid AoPM, which is detrimental.
The ultra basics are that we all have three super stats. One of these superstats will be stacked either for:
- Damage
- Support
- Tanking
When it comes to Damage and Support specifically, one of the super stats is stacked as much as they player can stack it, to ensure that their toggle form, which fuels increased damage (or support) as well as their slotted passive, is sufficient enough to provide meaningful damage (or support).
So with that in mind, by ensuring I get a stat boost, will improve my effectiveness and my DPS (or support). When you consider that there is a real link between effectiveness and stat totals/values...you'll understand why everyone in this thread is telling you why it is a problem.
It shouldn't have to go down or sideways unless the support dies, or the player dies to mechanics. That's the point.
Open Mission fights are balanced to work WITH the team up function...that is why it is there.
It isn't for display.
You can definitely make a choice not to team up but when you face bosses where it scales to the amount of players in said instance, you are effectively adding wet logs to a fire.
Long story short, it measures effectiveness. If you don't score or you are at the bottom, you probably haven't been pulling your weight (depend on your role mind you, if you are very low on a DPS, its a problem. If you are very low on a tank bit of a problem etc).
You seemed to have selectively skipped a large section of Gammabreaker's posts if you have come to this rather concerning conclusion.
They made a gif/video specifically to demonstrate the effect "Hybrid AoPM" has. I strongly recommend you scroll up and re-read that entire post carefully and watch the video.
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You don't seem toxic. Opinionated, but not toxic. I understand that the group efforts are what matters in the fights. And I agree that what I brought or bring individually does not matter since it is all cumulative. As I said, however, that is the point. What I have or don't have will not effect the final result because that is the design of the particular fights.
No. I am not new. I have been playing since the second beta (that was when Iron Swan was the moderator/community manager), I have written articles on a defunct site and intervied devs before release. I have also played nearly every iteration of every mission in the game (save for amphibian's quests and the sea lab ones apparently).
Looking into the second definition of detrimental, which is a undesirable effect, I will concede that this implantation is not ideal nor, apparently wanted. My apologies for my ignorance to that second definition.
However I want to say this: I haven't demanded anything from anyone else, at anytime, and I am not taking over any primary roles with my build as your analogy suggest. If anything, this aura buff implementation is a scaling mechanic of the auras with the expressed goal of doing what is happening now and function is being worked around by players with a result those players want.
From your analogy, if my goal was to tank something I don't have the build for, I would hit a wall of game mechanics (I know since when I had invulnerability as a passive I was "asked" to tank Kiga before the dogs were in, for context) that my build would have to address before I could take that role. However, I am not doing that. I am just there to fight. Also I do not have the right to be an **** and attack others or ostracize any person because of their build because of that reason.
Every claim presented has been presented, both in game and this thread, with the individual who presented the argument as its primary focus. A "It affects me, and what I have is more important that what you want." And that is not the case. What we want is all equal and will not effect the encounters a much as anyone saying that my build, or any other hybrid build with AoPm will. Its a nothing burger that is looking larger since some are heated by it and I did not comply with the demands at the start of all of this. What the stacking is doing is by design and not happenstance. And feedback is needed to address any issues with it.
I am glad the devs are looking at the thread though. Something good may come from it. As I said before, I think only the support passive version should project to other people since that projection is scaling with a healing stat now. It would stabilize the flipflops to a more manageable ratio of 50 to 100 stats; however, that is another story.
As for builds:
It does depend on the build and things but generally you are in line with all the build guides. Mostly it is two stats: The one that does damage or the affect you want, and the other that supports that effect. I would go into what I did but that is not the topic here so.
I mean at base on a game design/developmental level. However, when are we in agreement that this is less optimal that just teaming up with the current aura scaling but here we are. Now I don't realty have a desire to do cosmics honestly. There repetitive and don't have a lot of story to them after you do them once, but they are they only reliable way to get gold recognition and any devices that may be neat to try out.
I am struggling with the quote system in this version of forms so this is about the side bar on the open mission ranking list:
Seems we are in the same boat of understanding then. the how it does that is elusive an only vague conjecture on the part of the devs. I dislike that but I can't change what it is right now.
On reading about the gamma breakers post, I read it all. from that I have come to the conclusion, based upon how the auras stacked before the change, that the goal of this change was to create a cap on how the buff affected people without AoPm. Otherwise ones with AoPM would see the same bounce in stats, which they don't.
In conclusion, I understand the desire for the stats and auras to be the one way those that are angry would like it to be. I can't do anything about that. The outcomes of the fights are not based around my lone passive choice. The Devs did it and I just happened to have the passive effected by said change and was told vehemently by a 4-5 people at the start of all of this that they don't like it and et cetera. If they want to change it make threads about it and campaign about it. Or fix the affected builds to be better without AoPm needing to be there as a crutch for success in the fights.
In anycase, you all can play what you want, how you want, and I will do the same. As the devs intended.
Oh an feel free to use this thread as a spring board for the change you want for the aura passives!
No, you don't get it... even after all this patient explaining, you still don't get it. I think the only explanation is that you are desperately trying to not understand the impact of your choices on other players, because in reality you have been bringing everyone around you down.
You seem comfortable with being a huge burden on the team. That's gross to me tbh. But, if you keep choosing to bring hybrid AoPM to Eido after the affects have clearly been explained to you, you are griefing. Doing something like that out of ignorance is excusable, but continuing when you have full knowledge of the effect you have isn't.
Your camp wants a lot of stats to work with from AoPM that is the same as it was before the change. I "disrupt" that because of the new feature of how aura is applied. I get that and said so awhile ago. However, I will not be told I am X Y or Z because I am a focal point for the disdain for the change to the system by you or anyone else since it is not true. It all hyperbolic conjecture on what my build does (which you don't know how it works), on what your builds (that you know how it works) and some worse case scenario (fictitious "bad builds" that really need this AoPm as a crutch) that is cooked up with factors that are fluid and adaptable for your stance to refute claims.
My stance is still the following: this is what the devs intended to do to cap how the effect stacks. The base builds don't change in stats, only the bonus changes and that bonus is relied upon too much and is also used as a scapegoat, preemptively by those that fear a possibly of wasted time in the Eldolon fight.
I hope this interaction stays in this thread because this is the actually an example that is the toxic insult stuff when I don't agree and don't comply. As I said, you are all welcome to play the game the way you want to play the game. I an not greater than anyone here and don't clam to tell anyone how to play their characters.
I don't care about the meta or what you think is "optimal" at this point. I don't care that you all don't like the change and that you don't get a cycle of stats the way you want them to be. Till a dev says something else about AoPM aura application changes it is moot point that you all will have to deal with, not me.
Now if anyone has suggestions on how to implement a change, to what you don't like, I am interested to continuing this thread to give the devs something to consider.
I think the point to take away from this thread is something along these lines:
"Whilst Hybrid AoPM in a vacuum, is not problematic in and of itself, when Hybrid AoPM is introduced to a setting where players are expected to join using the Team up function (so all Cosmics including Eidolon), it becomes problematic as it has a detrimental effect on those whom it influences and this is precisely what people are trying to communicate to me. I understand what they are saying and why Hybrid AoPM in those situations is bad for the team."
Once you have accepted that simple message, I think you can let this topic move on. At present it does not read as if you have grasped that fully.
You keep referring to the negative effect Hybrid AoPM is having in those situations as conjecture...when it is an observable fact.
And again, as it has been explained, in larger instances like Cosmics, the detrimental effect Hybrid AoPM is having on others, is still very present, but is heavily compensated for by other people's builds and investments. That should not be the case, but it explains why you have had "no issues with it before".
From the top of this thread, right down to this response, various people have reasoned with you and tried to get you to not only accept, but understand the impact and it reads as if you have tried to rubbish their arguments or refuse it at every turn. When you do that, you not only make it difficult for people to want to remain civil with you, but flat out engage with you on this topic.
As you have self described as a person with considerable experience with CO, it does make the take you have here all the more concerning. It could be a failure to clearly communicate what you mean but the emboldened text in this post, is essentially what everyone is trying to tell you.
Some people in this thread, think that Hybrid AoPM should not exist period. That's fine, but the core of the issue they may have with it, is the detrimental effect it has on their time investments in CO when it comes to teamed content like Cosmics. That's where the "toxicity" comes from.
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One option might be to create a dual passive build, one that you use for group content and the other for when you solo things.
It's important also to remember that CO has a very small dev team and even if they wanted to rebalance auras that's a pretty big task that would take away from all the other things they want/need to do and what other players (besides yourself) want them to do. It's almost always better to figure out a way to work around the flaws one sees in the game than to expect the devs to ever do anything about them.