That's how *shields* work, but IDF, Invul and so on work as Flat Damage Reduction. It reduces the damage taken at the end of the calculation.
This is on live with a tank. First part is IDF off and second part is IDF on. The damage varies exactly what is written in IDF, meaning it's post damage negation. And it has always been like this even Invul's FDR (flat damage reduction).
If it didn't work like this it wouldn't make any sense. Every game does FDR like this.
For reference if I take 12k damage and reduce it to 6k by resistances, if I then take the same 12k but now have a 5k shield it first reduces the damage to 7k (12k -5k), then my resistance reduces the damage to 3500. So that "5k shield" actually only reduced damage by 2500 (difference between 6k without shield and 35000 with shield). So you can notice because my resistance halves damage, the 5k shield only matters for half of its value too (which is not to say that resistances are bad, but that "Normal" shields that don't count resistance are terrible, especially when you block: the more resistance you have the less those shields do anything for you).
So if IDF/Invul and other FDRs didn't count resistance, the damage difference between unequipped and equipped in practice should *never* be the same as is being told. So the fact I took exactly 132 less damage shows that it does count resistance.
So I'm wondering what I'm missing because this makes sense to me...I was thinking that the Flat Damage Reduction was being changed into some sort of shield based on the language used.
But in practice...it is still Flat Damage Reduction, so I'm left wondering where it has been moved to behind the scenes unless like the rest of the passive, this effect is not working.
Also I still think Power Shield needs a way to refresh refresh of Power Shield
Suggestion If the current version is not just bugged
Add an internal cool down for energy generation effect of Power Shield like the recharge advantage mechanic but allow for refresh of the effect that are consumed
Also, if possible, remove the shield overlay on the enemy heath bar since it does not protect them from damage
Sorry, I'm just confused but...have you actually TESTED...the new changes? Or are you just making suggestions here?
Power Shield does actually refresh....so unsure why you are advocating for a nerf?
Also, the shield overlay is to indicate that the target is affected by Power Shield. It does not need to be removed since reading the effect clearly states that it doesn't shield the target from damage.
That being said, It might be a tad weird if it were removed IMO...
If we can't keep the old Gravitic Ripple, perhaps we could get it an adv that turns it into an AoE toggle pull? The power is pretty weak damage wise and high cooldown (speaking of the Live version) so turning it into a toggle through 3pt Advantage might not be too much to keep fitting the same niche that players have with the original one without being too powerful.
Why can't IDF still be a toggle form like compasion that priamrily boosts shields and heals and damage to a lesser extent? I.e. the amount of damage reduction scales with the current level of the Form. Make it so that the trigger effect is either applying the new shielding mechanic or shielding other players with PF, MR, BS, and RF. Triggers once every 3 seconds. Also give it the ability to passively heal those shields and PFF to some extent in an area around the player. Put the now scaling dmage reduction in the formula where it has some meaningful effect.
Also, if possible, remove the shield overlay on the enemy heath bar since it does not protect them from damage
I actually agree with this, it's visually confusing. There has to be a better way to show what's happening. To be honest the whole concept of "shielding" your enemy for your own advantage is mentally backwards.
Even just a change of the colour of the shield from blue to yellow or something on the health bar would be a quick fix.
Also I still think Power Shield needs a way to refresh refresh of Power Shield
Suggestion If the current version is not just bugged
Add an internal cool down for energy generation effect of Power Shield like the recharge advantage mechanic but allow for refresh of the effect that are consumed
Also, if possible, remove the shield overlay on the enemy heath bar since it does not protect them from damage
Sorry, I'm just confused but...have you actually TESTED...the new changes? Or are you just making suggestions here?
Power Shield does actually refresh....so unsure why you are advocating for a nerf?
Also, the shield overlay is to indicate that the target is affected by Power Shield. It does not need to be removed since reading the effect clearly states that it doesn't shield the target from damage.
That being said, It might be a tad weird if it were removed IMO...
I am not advocating any nerf. Power Shield stays on for about 5 seconds then it goes away in my tests Without the ability refresh the effect while it is still on the enemy. This happened with both the new power that was just made and crushing wave with advantage. If that has been changed then I will take a new look. As I stated I don't know if the not refreshing until it goes away was a bug or a feature. So my suggestion is contingent on that being clarified
That's odd. For me, its persisting the whole 10 seconds, and can still be ruptured repeatedly (including in the last 2 seconds). I have only used the version applied by Force Geyser and Singularity Bomb. I think it must be a bug since the icon says 10 seconds. I can also confirm that for me at least, it is refreshing as it should.
Possible Bug: The Field Inversion advantage on Force Cascade is only counting the Force Blast Shield Generator advantage as a qualifying shield effect to deal additional damage.
I'm not sure if this is intended. I did test it with a passive shield (Bad Sector) and re-read that the advantage specified it has to be a direct shield, so I tried it with Protection Field and Mindful Reinforcement, which are both powers that have to be hard cast with only one shield effect, which seems like an aforementioned "Direct Shield" effect to me, so I was confused when they weren't consumed for the Field Inversion. Only the Force Blast shield did it.
I have also had no issue with using Field Inversion with Protection Field or Mindful Reinforcement, so seems to also be a bug.
Tier 2 Force
15 Second Cooldown
Deals Crushing damage and knocks targets towards your primary target.
Chance to apply power shield based on charge time.
Adv (2): Instead of knocking, on full charge this power now Paralyzes the primary target and stuns secondary targets.
This power is basically everything I wanted Force Detonation to be~
It's basically Force Cascade UTILITY-focused Cousin! Good damage, could get 10k on singlet targets too and I feel the CD is pretty fair for the Utilities it provides!
LOVE IT
Here is gifs, also using Shield Restoration as well and the Force Detonation with the KNOCK UP adv
The only thing I don't like is that the power is using Wind Blast/Open Palm Strike's animation...
I don't hate it but it feels like out of place with the rest of the set! And I would love to pair it with the hand cannon costume pieces
Suggestion: Give us Alternative Emanation points for Singularity Bomb
New Power: Shield Restoration
Tier 1 Force
Applies a small shield to targets within the rune.
If the target is affected by a Direct Shield, restores the shield instead.
Like the others, Not very impressed with this power neither
Bug: Shield Restoration - Dizzying Impact! The description states it" Applies Disoriented to Affected targets" but It only applies Disoriented on a SINGLE target and ignores everything else on the AOE field of effect
If this was intentional please change it so it can apply Disoriented it ALL the effected targets in the AREA!
This power is PRETTY BAD, giving it such limited debuff ADV wont make it better
Post edited by avianos on
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Suggestion: Give the Device -Telekinetic Force Field Inducer, innate Power Shield ability just like Containment Field and Banish
and for more synergies, more power outisde the FORCE needs to get access to Entropy Field ADVs Suggestion: Give Ego Hold a Power Shield ADV Suggestion: Give Telekinetic Wave a Power Shield ADV based on the Charge time
Force Detonation
Made the Field Inversion effect innate to this ability.
New Adv (2): Knocks Up targets instead of back.
New Adv (2): Applies Restoration.
VERY GOOD Decisions to make the Field Inversion an innate effect
Even thought the power would benefit from knock into center, Knock up is still good, even if it can be a little silly consider how high it knocks the targets
Restoration ADV is welcomed too
New Effect: Frail Armor
Reduces Piercing damage resistance on a target.
Desperate Shot
New Adv (2): Applies Frail Armor to targets.
Updated tooltips.
Hold Out Shot
New Adv (2): Applies Frail Armor to targets.
Frail Armor
Fixed an issue where this effect was not applying properly.
Just a note that the "Archery Combo: Snap Shot" Armor Piercing debuff refresh is ALSO called Frail Armor which can cause confusion
Suggestion: Rename Snap Shot's Frail Armor ADV into something else
If we can't keep the old Gravitic Ripple, perhaps we could get it an adv that turns it into an AoE toggle pull? The power is pretty weak damage wise and high cooldown (speaking of the Live version) so turning it into a toggle through 3pt Advantage might not be too much to keep fitting the same niche that players have with the original one without being too powerful.
I AGREE! Gravitic Ripple is just sad and pathetic now with its Gravity Well gone!
Post edited by avianos on
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
If PFF tanks are going to be boosted to be more on par with Invulnerability tanks and Defiance tanks, I suspect the Devs will want to have healers be required to assist them as they do with other tanks in more challenging content. It could be tweaking heals or making Protection Field and Mindful Reinforcement heal PFF's shield or some other mechanic.
I agree one of the biggest issues with PFF tanks is that supports can't really help them recover shield. I think PFF should naturally take 50% of all incoming direct healing as shield repair, while 100% of direct shielding is taken as shield repair. Then again, I have no idea if this is feasible to implement.
Just want to add to the calls to please return the Gravity Well effect to Gravatic Ripple. I spent a lot of time grinding to get the power and subsequently built a gravity themed character around the effect and this new version of the power is no longer fun or thematic
Inertial Dampening Field - Slotted Support Only Passive
Whereas on PTS, identical build and conditions bar 10% Def from Tank role as IDF can only be used in Support Role:
Really confused now by the patch notes as Lunny said. Can we get some clarification please? At present, this just seems like a direct nerf as IDF is actually stronger (defense value wise) on LIVE than in PTS.
Suggestion: Inertial Dampening Field
Your suggestion: With the loss of this power as a Form. The unique VFX / Aura it has will be gone entirely. Please provide IDF's glow-fade aura it has when activated as a free aura within the Legacy Aura Vendor.
If force eruption's sigil and shield restoration are going to have the same circle visual effect, the shield restoration effect should have the circle-effects expand outwards rather than shrink inwards.
If force eruption's sigil and shield restoration are going to have the same circle visual effect, the shield restoration effect should have the circle-effects expand outwards rather than shrink inwards.
I like this idea. Love the look of the Force runes btw
Suggestion: Redirected Force
Your suggestion: For the sacrifices it takes to use this power in combat. Redirected Force must make you KNOCK IMMUNE for its duration.
Suggestion
Please avoid this sort of update where you break multiple power sets at once, the number of people willing to retcon/respec this number of characters at one time can't be that high anymore
Suggestion
Leave IDF as a toggle. The Passive version is substandard and pointless. The Toggle version (which allows a character to add a little self/team defence to adapt to circumstance, at the cost of a reduction in damage) makes much more sense.
So if IDF/Invul and other FDRs didn't count resistance, the damage difference between unequipped and equipped in practice should *never* be the same as is being told. So the fact I took exactly 132 less damage shows that it does count resistance.
Dunno who's wrong or right, but I think you migth have misinterpreted what "take your damage resistance into account" means. Since any FDRs are FDRs by definition, they will of course occur right after damages are mitigated, right before they are substracted to your current health. I never expected current IDF/Invul/FDRs to do something else than substracting some damage to the mitigated value by your own resistance.
What I undertand with "take your damage resistance into account", is that shields and now IDF passive have their own pass of damage mitigation, but I can't figure out yet where in the equation. I bet they work like if they where their own entity with their own HP (= shield value) and shares your current damage resistance (both base layer and block layer most likely) and they take damage before yourself, and they are considered "dead" if the mitigated damage value is higher than their HP, and the rest of damage is once again mitigated by your own resistance.
I will try an exemple:
1000 HP
1000 SP (shield point)
100% resistance (it translates in damage divided by 2 with current damage mitigation equation)
4000 base damage taken
Fist pass: Shield calculation:
1000 SP - 4000 damages / 2 = -1000
You lose your shield, and you take 1000 damage
Second pass : HP calculation
1000 HP - 1000 damages / 2 = 500
You're left with 500 HP in that case.
If shield didn't have a mitigation pass, it would result in:
1000 SP - 4000 damage = 3000 damage
You lose your shield and you take 3000 damage
1000 HP - 3000 damage / 2 = -500
You're dead ^^'
All of this is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised it's something like that, which would be the best case scenario. It means damage would be mitigated twice. It would also mean that IDF gets better the higher resistance you have. With the hypothesis of a DPS geared with end game gear, I notice you usually get a least around 50% damage resistance, which mean in that case, IDF passive r3 with 89 damage reduction would be equivalent at about 120 FDRs : it means with 50% damage resistance, you'd need to take more than 120 point of damage to actully lose health.
@Leucha - Cascade, Praise, Gluh, Sanglots, Chernozem, Saadhaka, Ralsershei, La Lice, Cardinale and so on
Really confused now by the patch notes as Lunny said. Can we get some clarification please? At present, this just seems like a direct nerf as IDF is actually stronger (defense value wise) on LIVE than in PTS.
Hmm, your test on PTS definitely shows IDF isn't working as we understand by its description
@Leucha - Cascade, Praise, Gluh, Sanglots, Chernozem, Saadhaka, Ralsershei, La Lice, Cardinale and so on
"Takes your resistance into account" means the damage reduction is applied on mitigated damage, and not on base damage. Do you know anything that substact damage on base damage ?
It would mean IDF passive definitely sucks ultra hard lol
@Leucha - Cascade, Praise, Gluh, Sanglots, Chernozem, Saadhaka, Ralsershei, La Lice, Cardinale and so on
"Takes your resistance into account" means the damage reduction is applied on mitigated damage, and not on base damage. Do you know anything that substact damage on base damage ?
It would mean IDF passive definitely sucks ultra hard lol
That's precisely the problem that Lunny and I are alluding to.
Inertial Dampening Field has ALWAYS been a Flat Damage Reduction.
This means it shaves off whatever is incoming first by a set amount. So whether it took your resistances into account or not is a moot point because it isn't a SHIELD.
It literally absorbs a set amount of damage from incoming attacks.
Incoming attacks are calculated from your resistances pretty quickly after checks to see if anything is in the way of your HP.
Dodge/Avoid > Flat Damage Reduction (Absorbs) > Field Surge/Unbreakable > Shields & Damage Shields > Bastion > Your Resistances > PFF (if PFF) > Health Points.
So from that priority list above, you can see that if I had dodged something, that is taken into account first, then FDR and then Field Surge and then Shields etc.
(The interesting thing about this is that now Field Surge takes into consideration your resistances similar to PFF however, in the presence of shields like Protection Field, it will still layer over it due to its status as an active defensive and the layering order)
Example:
Flaming Larry's Fireball deals 17,000 Fire Damage to Bob The Superhero.
Bob The Superhero uses IDF and Bob's IDF absorbs 1000 points of damage.
So even if in this example, Bob had 0% resistance (and we assume there are no negative resistance debuffs on him), the maximum that the incoming Fireball can do is 16,000 damage, provided Bob's IDF is active, because it absorbs 1000 damage from any incoming attack.
In CO of course, if an attack is technically totally consumed, it cannot do 0 damage, so it MUST do between 1 - 2 damage regardless of how well protected you are (provided you are not covered by a non PFF shield).
So even if Bob The Superhero had 400% resistance, because IDF is a Flat Damage Absorb, it will only take a set amount of damage from an ability. It doesn't actually matter where that damage falls in the layering equation because unlike shields, FDR applies anywhere.
It works exactly the same for Invulnerability and Unstoppable as well. That's how its easy to tell if those passives are working from an FDR perspective.
Now if FDR was completely removed as a mechanic to make DoTs more dangerous, we'd have a much much bigger issue, because that would be a wholly unnecessary and vicious nerf.
The confusion was due to the language used initially I think around IDF having a "Shield Effect". When players think about "Shield Effects"...they think:
- Field Surge
- Personal Force Field
- Energy Refraction
- Protection Field
- Hardened Particle Matrix
- Mindful Reinforcement
- Bastion
- Unbreakable & other Damage Shields
They don't think of Invuln, IDF or Unstoppable because those are not shields, they are passives or powers with Flat Damage Reduction.
This is why earlier I assumed that that IDF had been changed into a shield effect much like PFF and that is what the description in patch notes was getting at. Now though, I *clearly* see that is not the case.
What we're saying is that IDF reduces at the end of calculation already, so it already counts resistance. Shields and Flat Damage Reduction are different things. If you take 1000 damage while blocking and IDF reduces 100 damage, when you take 1000 damage again but have IDF on, you'll reduce it to 900. That's true both live and PTS (except R3 IDF in PTS is bugged where it uses R2 values, keeps you on combat idle animation and doesn't spread to others, R2 seems to be working normal, couldn't test if it spread to others though).
So nothing changed. This example is great to highlight this because Blocking gives you an immense amount of resistances, so if anything was different, you'd notice.
The text is different on purpose. Shields give you a specific amount of "Health" as a shield, which CAN or not count resistances depending on the shield, once the shield is gone your protection is gone. FDR (Flat Damage Reduction) does not give you any amount of "health", it just reduces the damage at the end of all calculations.
The distinction is important because in any game you have FDR, the idea is to use it against multiple attacks/mobs. Whereas a shield is to stop you from getting bursted. You *can* think of IDF applying a shield on you right as you're about to get hit that reduces damage, but that's a rather convoluted way to think about it I'd say rather than it just reduces damage taken while active.
BUG: Force Cascade
Where it happens: PTS
What happens: The description for Force Cascade mentions a relic effect called "Exhaustion" which is a lockout for Force Cascade after charging. Please can the description be updated to remove this reference.
This appears to still be mentioned on Force Cascade's advanced tooltip description. Please can it be removed?
This is why earlier I assumed that that IDF had been changed into a shield effect much like PFF and that is what the description in patch notes was getting at. Now though, I *clearly* see that is not the case.
Yes, exactly the same, hence my long, useless post earlier x). Since INVUL/IDF form/Devious Shield mods/etc. takes effect by default after damage are mitigated, I thought adding "takes your resistance into account" in the description meant IDF passive worked differently.
It doesn't actually matter where that damage falls in the layering equation because unlike shields, FDR applies anywhere.
I don't agree. FDR must be one of the last things computed before you loose health. Two exemples with 100% resistance:
FDR before mitigation:
(1000 damage - 200 FDR) / 2 = 400 total damage taken
FDR after mitigation:
(1000 damage / 2) - 200 FDR = 300 total damage taken
Kais wrote us that IDF passive works like in the second case, just like before, while nobody ever expected it was something different and where other FDRs don't have that clarification in their own description. Uneeded and confusing clarification x)
@Leucha - Cascade, Praise, Gluh, Sanglots, Chernozem, Saadhaka, Ralsershei, La Lice, Cardinale and so on
I'm not sure if I like how the Force powerset is split between so many different stats now. Protection Field scales with PRE, gives energy back on REC, but the toggled passive scales from END. IDF also does not give any clarity as to whether it scales with any particular stat.
END also does not provide anything a barrier support player would potentially want, and the stat allocation meant for this playstyle is needlessly confusing. If barrier support could be homogenized to be centered around a single stat that would be great (preferably not PRE since there's so much going for that already)
I'm not sure if I like how the Force powerset is split between so many different stats now. Protection Field scales with PRE, gives energy back on REC, but the toggled passive scales from END. IDF also does not give any clarity as to whether it scales with any particular stat.
END also does not provide anything a barrier support player would potentially want, and the stat allocation meant for this playstyle is needlessly confusing. If barrier support could be homogenized to be centered around a single stat that would be great (preferably not PRE since there's so much going for that already)
new IDF is all superstats. That's the plan for all auras when those are getting updated too.
Suggestion: give Singularity Bomb emanation points
Your suggestion: as already suggested elsewhere, having played around with it a bit more, it does fit a little oddly with the rest of the force animations. Those that create projectiles tend to be fairly low action movements, with the flashier ones being instant hit.
Suggestion: give Singularity Bomb emanation points
Your suggestion: as already suggested elsewhere, having played around with it a bit more, it does fit a little oddly with the rest of the force animations. Those that create projectiles tend to be fairly low action movements, with the flashier ones being instant hit.
I have to agree with suggestions around the animation but I'd suggest something simpler.
Suggestion: Singularity Bomb
Your suggestion: Consider trading Singularity Bomb's current character model animation, for that of Ebon Ruin / Fireball. So the Singularity Bomb forms whilst standing. The current animation looks a bit too out of character for Force.
Ok. First of all, I’d like to say that I really appreciate the Force framework finally getting this pass, plus the visual and sound FX are so on point, I believe congrats are in order! I also like the utility that was added to the set, some nice, creative and dynamic power ideas and advantages, opening up new ways of playing. However:
I feel like the mechanics could be streamlined a bit, made more straightforward. Multiple powers are sometimes required to do one thing. It’s (overall) a heavy investment and not nearly as rewarding (especially if you’re going the Support/shields route). I don’t see many players going for it, in this current state, except maybe for theme reasons strictly. Bubbling/shielding your teammates (like healing), needs to feel gratifying. This revamp is the opportunity to do it! 🙌
Secondly:
1)- Redirected Force: again, I do like the VFX, it’s pleasant and appropriate enough. But I must insist that you reutilize Force Shield/Wall’s FX (or even a R2 Protection Field?), most of all to keep with the set’s aesthetics, preserve its visual cohesiveness. Just like Power Armor's got the signature “hive” pattern, Force has well-established and consistent (great-looking, too) visual effects for shields/protective bubbles.
And I think it might actually be clearer than the current version on PTS (with proper adjustments as needed). Speaking of: consider making the field’s bottom (by where it hits the ground) and top borders, a little stronger and defined with energy; with a subtle, gradient transparency effect towards the middle (LoS area). This should help give the field a better sense of encompassment, which is what I think is lacking. Add a Knock Back (or better yet, a *strong* initial Repel effect, as you push the force-field outwards) applied to mobs caught in the AoE, decreasing as they attempt to come back into the dome. And finally: rename this awesome power to Force Dome!
2)- Gravitic Ripple: has completely lost its appeal. Used to be stupid fun, now it's just kinda there. Please revert it to the previous version.
Suggestion: perhaps instead, create a new power around the desired Repel AoE mechanic? Example: a maelstrom of orbiting Force spheres that damage and repel enemies around you.
3)- Force Eruption:could use a radius increase, I think (as an Advantage, perhaps?). Pales in comparison to similar powers such as TK Eruption and Energy Wave… currently, enemies *really* need to like, get in your grill, for it to be any kind of effective as a Knock Back AoE.
4)- Nimbus of Force device: make it into a Force power, or even better: a new mechanic or Advantage within Protection Field; i.e., allowing you to choose between deploying a single bubble as usual, at full power; OR the 5-nearby-ally (Nimbus of Force) version, albeit weaker / shared protection – ... something like that. Could potentially make PF (and Force while Support), a little more fun and dynamic.
5)- Force Wall (Power Suggestion): akin to Ice Barrier, with Force’s signature shielding FX. I’m thinking, a large “squircle”-shaped (square with rounded corners) Force construct you place in front of you, that allies can go behind as well for protection. Maybe give it some fun mechanisms or advantages to make it more compelling? For example: you may choose to refresh/maintain it for longer, feeding its HP with your own shield effects (such as PFF, if you have it). Or that allies blasting from behind the wall gain a ranged DMG buff, as though boosted/charged with kinetic energy.
6)- Force Hover Disk (Travel Power Suggestion): reskin of light Hoverboard. Suggested VFX: a disk-shaped R3 Force Shield, with the energy shifting slightly according with the direction & speed. The character’s hands might be emanating the same VFX used for Force Cascade/Blast charge.
7)- I love the FX for shielding applied to enemies, it’s a soft flowy aura/glow, exactly as I’d imagined it should be! But I agree with a fellow poster above, in that it should have different signage on the enemy’s health bar, as there isn’t an actual shield protecting them (“field”, instead = more appropriate term when referring to enemies). It’s a priming effect: might be that the target is sheathed with a kind of unstable, rapidly-shifting energy or whatever – so, I’m thinking, maybe like a glow-y outline, or a soft pulse/flashing effect onto the bar itself…? IDK.
Suggestion
Instead of Force Blast applying Demolish Debuff and Force Geyser having the refresh adv perk, could we just have Force Geyser be the one to apply Demolish? It'll help with making better investments in power/skill points with builds.
Suggestion
Instead of Force Blast applying Demolish Debuff and Force Geyser having the refresh adv perk, could we just have Force Geyser be the one to apply Demolish? It'll help with making better investments in power/skill points with builds.
Typically its the Tier 0 blast power that applies a debuff. I don't see a reason to change this?
At present Force Blast is a great buff and debuff applier and Force Geyer has a bunch of new utility.
Suggestion
Instead of Force Blast applying Demolish Debuff and Force Geyser having the refresh adv perk, could we just have Force Geyser be the one to apply Demolish? It'll help with making better investments in power/skill points with builds.
Typically its the Tier 0 blast power that applies a debuff. I don't see a reason to change this?
At present Force Blast is a great buff and debuff applier and Force Geyer has a bunch of new utility.
I think it would make things simpler? Especially if you're someone who's just grabbing Force Blast and Force Geyser for Demolish. With my current build on LIVE, I use Hurl in the same way I'm suggesting now, and there's definitely a better flow in comparison with having a completely force-themed build (which I would love to have!), and I would also have extra power/skill points to utilize in something else that I might find more useful
Suggestion
Instead of Force Blast applying Demolish Debuff and Force Geyser having the refresh adv perk, could we just have Force Geyser be the one to apply Demolish? It'll help with making better investments in power/skill points with builds.
Typically its the Tier 0 blast power that applies a debuff. I don't see a reason to change this?
At present Force Blast is a great buff and debuff applier and Force Geyer has a bunch of new utility.
I think it would make things simpler? Especially if you're someone who's just grabbing Force Blast and Force Geyser for Demolish. With my current build on LIVE, I use Hurl in the same way I'm suggesting now, and there's definitely a better flow in comparison with having a completely force-themed build (which I would love to have!), and I would also have extra power/skill points to utilize in something else that I might find more useful
Hmm, I see.
I guess maybe I'd say instead of requesting less options, perhaps just more? Maybe an advantage on Force Geyser that applies Demolish instead of just refreshing it?
I'm pretty biased since I like it the way it is now but more options might be nice too!
Suggestion
Instead of Force Blast applying Demolish Debuff and Force Geyser having the refresh adv perk, could we just have Force Geyser be the one to apply Demolish? It'll help with making better investments in power/skill points with builds.
Typically its the Tier 0 blast power that applies a debuff. I don't see a reason to change this?
At present Force Blast is a great buff and debuff applier and Force Geyer has a bunch of new utility.
I think it would make things simpler? Especially if you're someone who's just grabbing Force Blast and Force Geyser for Demolish. With my current build on LIVE, I use Hurl in the same way I'm suggesting now, and there's definitely a better flow in comparison with having a completely force-themed build (which I would love to have!), and I would also have extra power/skill points to utilize in something else that I might find more useful
Hmm, I see.
I guess maybe I'd say instead of requesting less options, perhaps just more? Maybe an advantage on Force Geyser that applies Demolish instead of just refreshing it?
I'm pretty biased since I like it the way it is now but more options might be nice too!
Yeah! Hah hah, I love all the changes so much and can't wait for it all to go live!!! I think I'm just at a part where it's a bit of a hard time deciding what to scale back on because there are so many goodies now to work with.
Suggestion
Instead of Force Blast applying Demolish Debuff and Force Geyser having the refresh adv perk, could we just have Force Geyser be the one to apply Demolish? It'll help with making better investments in power/skill points with builds.
I agree with this suggestion as well. For me I very much dislike the clunkiness of having to fully charge force blast in order to apply demolish. I would much rather use force geyser since it is a quick power to apply demolish, similar to the quick and easy ball lightning power is used in electricity.
Having said that... Suggestion
Can we please get some innate abilities in some of these force powers? I appreciate the innate field inversion on force detonation, but an innate Power Shield ability on like say force geyser or some other power wouldn't go amiss.
I'm not sure if I like how the Force powerset is split between so many different stats now. Protection Field scales with PRE, gives energy back on REC, but the toggled passive scales from END.
I agree that the stats used in the new setup could be a bit more streamlined.
Suggestion
Would like to see kinetic manipulation's energy recovery scale with endurance rather than recovery since END is used for both the new force toggle forms and energy unlocks.
I'm not sure if I like how the Force powerset is split between so many different stats now. Protection Field scales with PRE, gives energy back on REC, but the toggled passive scales from END. IDF also does not give any clarity as to whether it scales with any particular stat.
END also does not provide anything a barrier support player would potentially want, and the stat allocation meant for this playstyle is needlessly confusing. If barrier support could be homogenized to be centered around a single stat that would be great (preferably not PRE since there's so much going for that already)
In all my testing of IDF up to and including in recent weeks, IDF applies after every other form of defense (dodge, def%, block%,) and it is still quite easy to test this on the live server to come to the same conclusion. As such, the changing of IDF to a slotted passive with half of the strength of old IDF in exchange for only a tiny amount of knock and CC resist extra on top moves IDF from already weak but still usable in niche situations to objectively worthless, even compared to what auras will be when their numbers are reduced by the same rough percentage, and objectively worthless compared to "pure" support passives like Hearth or Seraphim, and an unneeded nerf to something that already underperformed. And so, with that said...
Suggestion:
Restore the old toggleform IDF with the same stats- it already functioned exactly the same way it was supposedly corrected to function now- while implementing the new IDF as a new support slotted passive that, in addition to its current stats, doubles the base strength of any Shield effect applied by the user directly or indirectly, and gives a bonus to Crushing damage to the user, making it a Force-and-Shield-centric equivalent to Fire's Hearth or Celestial's Seraphim.
Post edited by thisiscraftaaa on
The fact that the forums refuse to tell you how close you are to the character/post size limit until you attempt to post something that happens to be too big- and the automated spam filter will immediately completely lock you out of posting long-term if you attempt to post or edit posts too close to the character limit- is genuine agony.
For whatever reason my original reply with all of this has vanished without warning so I'm altering this reply. Sorry if it was removed for a reason I'm unaware of.
Suggestion 1:
Revamp the game's basic concept of shields.
By definition, "Shields" are typically things that provide protection against outside forces, whereas "Barriers" are typically things that prevent direct access to something else such as an amount of additional health preventing access to your actual health. Shields are meant to be impenetrable & direct while barriers are typically temporary & limited measures.
So moving forward... "Barriers" apply "damage absorption"(pre-mitigation). Barriers serve as extra health or vitality which has to be depleted BEFORE actual health can be damaged. They do not need to factor in target resistances as their max values indicate their relative power. The quicker you can replace and/or stack them, the more useful they become.
Note: This is basically the current concept behind shields. These types of shields could just be rebranded as "Barriers". As far as vfx, maybe you could quickly see an energy box or cylinder being built around your target(vs bubble) then it goes away & you get an additional health bar the same as how shields currently give. It could represent the combined value of all barrier stacks so the value would increase every time you see that effect.
"Shields" apply "damage reduction"(post-mitigation). Shields apply FDR, or Flat-rate Damage Reduction directly to targets(think targeted IDF). The amount of reduction indicates the power of the effect. This reduction applies AFTER initial damage calculation & the reduction amounts would in general be pretty small & always let through at least 1 damage from any incoming attacks.
Note: Same vfx as current shield powers(bubbles that begin to darken & pulse as strength builds) without the additional health meter on affected targets since barriers would use this.
Suggestion 2:
All direct shield powers become maintained powers. (More Detailed examples of the following towards the bottom)
Protection Concept: You create a weak shield(low FDR) & start feeding it energy which builds it up making it thicker & more durable, but it takes a while to reach maximum power. If you manage to fully maintain/empower it, then it lingers for a couple seconds giving you time to start feeding it again. If you fail to do so in time though, the energy dissipates & you have to start over from scratch.
Containment Concept: Same concept as above with key differences: This power is treated as an incapacitate power so enemies can break free, & the shield goes away if you stop maintaining it or it's broken. This power would not inflict damage by default. Also, the FDR & energy cost would be a bit lower than Protection Field ideally because you wanna give enemies bare minimum benefit. Since shields would now use FDR which isn't strong against large damage values & most enemies don't block it shouldn't. Overall, it's not going to be nearly as beneficial to enemies as simply cutting player damage in half like in the past.
Field Inversion: A one point advantage that makes Containment Field start to shrink inflicting crushing damage to your target as you maintain it. This damage would increase with maintain time. (A field that reduces outside damage more & more over time begins to cause scaling damage from the inside. That's a literal Field Inversion mechanic. This is how I'd salvage the whole Containment & Inversion gimmick.)
Suggestion 3:
Add "Barrier" powers as a secondary utility for shield-users. These could be charge powers that increase the value of the barrier with charge time. Charge time could also affect their max duration. On top of that, you could give these barriers the ability to stack sequentially(last applied is first hit) vs needing to repair/refresh them since they typically wouldn't be meant to last long. There could be a cap of say 3 barriers per source(self/other) & 9 max regardless or source.
Note: Basically, you can apply up to 3 barriers to yourself & 3 to targets. If already affected by 3 of your active barriers then further barriers cast by you won't apply while those by others will until the target has up to 9 max. If a target is affected by 9 barrier stacks then no barriers can apply to them until existing ones either get destroyed or time out.
Why? Well...
A shield being a click & forget power feels wrong conceptually. The concept of maintaining shields is pretty familiar & basic in the hero genre. Powering them should require focus & actively burn through your energy resources like healing maintains do. Currently, direct shields are static entities born of an energy sacrifice that despawn after taking a set amount of damage or timing out. Basically, they're uncontrolled pets. As "Barriers" they become more logical without needing to change at all. Barriers already are that in concept.
By design "Barriers" would be independent entities so your resistances mean nothing. They'll be taking full damage pre-mitigation with their only resistance and/or strength being their values. Making them charge powers allows direct strength manipulation by users while allowing them to stack & need to be defeated sequentially(last applied is first hit) makes them even more viable as a gimmick.
Think of having to break through 3 brick walls to get to something inside: 1st(1000HP), 2nd(2000HP), 3rd(1500). A 2500 damage attack could clear the 1st easily but not all of the 2nd. Meanwhile, a 5000 damage attack would smash all 3 walls in an instant & hit the target with 500 damage(pre-mitigation). Your resistances would then mitigate that 500 damage. This is typically how barriers work. Shields on the other hand typically repel or reduce impacts & are built to not break or falter. It's typically the person holding a shield who breaks before their shield does so having to maintain a shield to keep it in effect also makes more sense.
The numbers...
Since there may be multiple incoming sources of damage reduction(FDR), I believe they should all just stack & add to a collective pool of FDR per target. The pooled amount could be averaged out by the number of incoming sources including protection powers & IDF auras. The same could apply for containment powers on enemies. Allowing reduction numbers to add up vs average out would end up too OP.
Personally, I feel like values on shield maintains should be about half what heal maintains can do in health recovery on average & have to slowly scale up to substantial values vs being a fairly constant value per tick. Basically, a 250(base) per 0.5 second heal hitting 8 times max(2000 total over 4 secs) would be matched by a shield that applies 100>200>300>400(base) FDR every 1 second over 4 secs(1000 total). Given that FDR would potentially be reducing damage from multiple sources as it builds up power, this would still be very effective in practice against small damage values. It's weakness would be to sudden big damage like crits & charged attacks which typically sport big numbers.
Charged barriers would be the counter to charged heals & the answer to protecting targets from big damage by absorbing some of that damage pre-mitigation. Any remaining damage would get mitigated by your resistances(all damage resistance from blocking, defense, gear, and/or dodging reduction). Shields would then further reduce any leftover damage a player would take allowing small amounts of FDR to be effective.
Below are revamped powers utilizing this change in basic concept:
Protection Field
- 50ft Single Target Maintained Direct Shield Power
- While maintained, this power applies a small amount of "Damage Reduction"(FDR) to your target.
- The initial reduction amount scales with END & increases with maintain time. (Simulates it getting denser)
- After fully maintaining this power, the "Shield" effect will linger on your target for 2 seconds. If your Protection Field is re-applied to that target before time ends, it will begin at maximum power as if fully maintained from the start.
- Advantage: Solid Defense(3) - This power now also applies a "Barrier" to your target at the start of the maintain. The "Damage Absorption" of this "Barrier" effect scales with END & lasts for up to 3 seconds. This "Barrier" effect counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply if your target is already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
Note: The shield would take the edge off of lesser damage like DoTs & maintains while the optional barrier would help mitigate big damage. It's best of both worlds.
Protection Zone - New Power
- 25ft PBAoE Maintained Direct Shield Power (1 to 5 targets max)
- While maintained, this power applies a small amount of "Damage Reduction"(FDR) to your targets. (Much higher energy costs than Protection Field even with only one target.)
- Base damage reduction decreases based on the number of affected targets.
- The initial reduction amount scales with END & increases with maintain time. (Simulates it getting denser)
- After fully maintaining this power, the "Shield" effect will linger on your targets for 2 seconds. If your Protection Zone is re-applied to that target before time ends, it will begin at maximum power as if fully maintained from the start.
- Advantage: Solid Defense(3) - This power now also applies a "Barrier" to affected targets at the start of the maintain. The "Damage Absorption" of this "Barrier" effect scales with END as well as the number of affected targets & lasts for up to 3 seconds. This "Barrier" effect counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply to targets already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
Note: This would make for a nice higher tier power. Zone maintains would have very steep energy costs.
Containment Field
This power would make a lot of sense classified as an incapacitate. Similar to it's normal gimmick:
- 50ft Single Target Maintained Incapacitate Power
- While maintained, this power applies a small amount of "Damage Reduction"(FDR) to your target. This reduction scales slightly over maintain time.
- After being fully maintained, the "Shield" effect will linger on your target for 2 seconds. If your Containment Field is re-applied to that target before time ends, it will begin at maximum power as if fully maintained from the start. (This means it would be harder to break out of from the start. Also, Field Inversion damage would also start maxed out & be consistent throughout the maintain.)
- If broken or interrupted before being fully maintained, this power is placed on a 10 second cooldown. This cooldown is shared by all "Containment" powers.
- Advantage: Field Inversion(1) - This power now applies a shrinking effect, inflicting crushing damage to your target. The base damage scales with PRE & increases over maintain time. (For manipulation users)
Note: The revamped CF is set to apply "Power Shield" to enemies which rewards energy to the cast when those targets take damage. This isn't bad & could even stick around with this version. It doesn't address the disappointing "Containment" gimmick. The fix for that IMO is to minimize enemy benefit which this does because most enemies won't benefit much from low numbers of FDR since most don't block & it only applies while maintaining the power. The Field Inversion mech also makes more sense here as an advantage since it makes a field that reduces damage from the outside then inflict damage on the inside.
Containment Zone - New Power
This power would make a lot of sense classified as an incapacitate. Similar to it's normal gimmick:
- 25ft PBAoE Maintained Incapacitate Power (1 to 5 targets max)
- While maintained, this power applies a small amount of "Damage Reduction"(FDR) to your targets. This reduction scales slightly over maintain time.
- After being fully maintained, the "Shield" effect will linger on affected targets for 2 seconds. If your Containment Zone is re-applied to those targets before time ends, it will begin at maximum power as if fully maintained from the start. (This means it would be harder to break out of from the start. Also, Field Inversion damage would also start maxed out & be consistent throughout the maintain.)
- If interrupted before being fully maintained, this power is placed on a 20 second cooldown. This cooldown is shared by all "Containment" powers.
- Advantage: Field Inversion(1) - This power now applies a shrinking effect, inflicting crushing damage to targets. The base damage scales with PRE & increases over maintain time. (For manipulation users)
Bulwark - New Power
- 50ft Single Target Tap/Charge Barrier Power
- Tap: Applies a "Barrier" to your target or self. The base Damage Absorption(value) provided by this "Barrier" effect scales with your END. Duration is capped at 3 seconds.
- Charge: Increases damage absorption of the barrier. Extends barrier duration to up to 9 seconds.
- This "Barrier" effect counts towards your target's global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply if your target is already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
- Advantage: Expel Impurity(1) - Removes DoT effects from your target. Number of effects removed scales with rank.
Fortification - New Power
- 25ft PBAoE Tap/Charge Barrier Power(5 targets max)
- Tap: Applies a shared "Barrier" around self & nearby allies. The base Damage Absorption(value) provided by this "Barrier" effect scales with your END. Duration is capped at 2 seconds.
- Charge: Increases damage absorption of the barrier. Extends barrier duration to up to 6 seconds.
- This "Barrier" effect counts towards your target's global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply to targets already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
- Advantage: Purification(1) - Removes DoT effects from your targets. Number of effects removed scales with rank.
This would be a high tier power & have a very high energy cost especially on full charge so you would need lots of energy.
Field Conversion - New Power
- Self Heal Over Time
- For the next 15 seconds, targets affected by one your direct shields grant you healing every two seconds over 6 seconds, stacking up to 5 times.
- Shares a cooldown with other self heal over time powers.
This basically heals you while you use Protection Field/Zone. Using Protection Zone will allow it to immediately gain up to 5 stacks depending on how many allies you can apply it to. You would cast this first then start the maintains. Every time a "Protection" power starts it'll check for affected targets & apply stacks of Field Conversion.
Barrier Conversion - New Power
- Team Heal
- Consumes all "Barrier" effects applied by you on self & nearby teammates healing those around you for each consumed. Note: This will consume the "Barrier" effect provided by your Personal Force Field as well!
- Advantage: Smart Filter(1) - This power will no longer consume the barrier provided by your Personal Force Field.
Basically, you exchange your barriers for a burst of healing on everyone around you. The more barriers in total consumed, the more powerful the heal on everyone.
Inertial Dampening Field
- Support Passive - Shield/Barrier Power
- Improves the effectiveness of your shields effects by increasing the "damage reduction" provided by direct shield powers by ???% based on your super stats.
- Applies a Damage Reduction aura on self & up to 20 allies/teammates within 100ft. This aura counts as a "Shield" effect & scales with your super stats. (It's a passive team-wide shield. Shield maintains further, though only temporarily, add to the FDR pool of targets.)
- Additionally, direct shielding friendly targets applies a "Barrier" to self lasting for up to 3 seconds. Damage Absorption(value) on this "Barrier" effect scales with the rank of this power. This "Barrier" effect counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply if already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
Note: This power is all about protecting others. It rewards you with barriers when you cast shields on allies while making shields more effective. The recently added boost to shield strength through stacks will become how shielder form powers work(see further down).
Personal Force Field
- Tank Passive - Shield/Barrier Power
- Applies passive Damage Reduction(FDR) to self scaling with your super stats. This counts as a "Shield" effect.
- Applies an active "Barrier" to self. The base Damage Absorption(value) provided by this "Barrier" effect scales with your super stats. This barrier counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. Additional applied barriers will always stack on top of this barrier & will not apply if already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects. (This will always be treated as the first barrier applied you & the last to break.)
- The "Barrier" provided by this power passively repairs itself every 3 seconds. This repair amount scales with your REC.
- While current energy is higher than current equilibrium value, this power will consume the excess energy by ?? every 1 second to actively repair of your "Barrier". This repair happens independently of this power's passive repair effect & the amount scales with the rank of this power.
Note: This power is all about shielding yourself. It absorbs large amounts of damage(pre-mitigation) with its "Barrier" effect & reduces lesser damage(post-mitigation) with its "Shield" effect. Conceptually, the active "Barrier" repair has lots of ways to trigger: Excess energy gained from successfully blocking, END-based energy unlock effects, CoAP, specs such as Endurance's Kickback & Recovery's Efficient, etc. It also pairs nice with Endurance's mastery spec as well. Stacking END typically means very high max energy vs equilibrium so the repair effect could trigger very often. Too much REC vs END could hurt your build with this version because you want higher max energy than equilibrium.
Field Surge
- Active Defense
- This power provides a "Barrier" and/or repairs Personal Force Field's "Barrier" by the same amount.
- The Damage Absorption provided by this power's "Barrier" effect is based on the rank of this power.
- This "Barrier" effect counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply if already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects. (The shield/barrier is no longer the main effect.)
- This power increases your END & REC by ?? while active. (Rank based)
- When activated, fills your energy to its current maximum, increases energy generation, & decreases energy decay for 15 seconds. Meanwhile, damage dealt is decreased by 10%. (New main effect. Does not increase equilibrium but fills your energy bar higher than normal thanks to the stat boosts & actively tries to make that excess energy last as long as possible. This is all for the next effect.)
- Additionally, the active repair rate Personal Force Field's "Barrier" is doubled for the next 15 seconds. (Basically, Personal Force Field will now consume excess energy by ?? every 0.5 seconds to actively repair its barrier rather than every 1 second. This repair will still only occur while current energy exceeds equilibrium.)
Presence Mastery - Heal Bubbles
- Direct Healing and/or Shielding friendly targets applies barriers to those targets. Damage absorption on this "Barrier" effect is fixed at 3% of the target's max health. This "Barrier" effect can only apply once every 3 seconds & lasts for up to 9 seconds. This "Barrier" effect counts towards your target's global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply to targets already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects. Due to utilizing fixed values, form powers do not affect the absorption values of these barriers.
This will basically ensure that you always have at least one barrier going up every 3 seconds while you're healing and/or shielding someone. Note that these fixed value barriers won't be nearly as strong as ones applied by Bulwark and/or Fortification.
Rampart & Bastion
- These effects now convert a percentage of damage applied to targets as "Barrier" effects to self which count towards your global cap of 3 per source. They will not apply if already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
- Due to utilizing fixed values, form powers do not affect the absorption values of these barriers.
For the sake of dependent powers/advantages, tooltips have been updated to specify that having these effects active are the only requirements even if their "Barrier" effects are being prevented from applying due to the global cap.
Defensive Combo, Wall of Bullets, & ect.
- Effects like these will now apply "Barrier" effects to self which count towards your global cap of 3 per source. They will not apply if already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
- Since these effects don't use fixed values, form powers do scale up the absorption values of these barriers.
- As "Barrier" effects these effects no longer consider player resistances. (This should be fine since they quickly re-apply/stack & now scale with form bonuses.)
Currently, these effects aren't benefitted by shield forms or passives since they aren't "direct shields". This ensures they receive some support as well since they require advantage point commitment as well.
Toggle Forms
- Form powers that no longer provide combined healing & shielding benefit.
- Shielder specific forms increase "Shield" effect reduction(FDR on "shield" powers) & "Barrier" effect absorption(max value) by ??% for each stack & scale with END/REC. They also increase melee & ranged damage to a lesser degree. (Basically, this would function partially like IDF's current support passive boost to shielding strength by utilizing stacks to increasing FDR amount & scaling on barriers.)
- Healer specific forms increase heal effect strength(bonus healing?) & "Barrier" effect absorption" & scale with PRE/REC. They also increase melee & ranged damage to a lesser degree.
Note: Shielders shouldn't necessarily be good healers & vice versa or there's not much to each individual gimmick. With these changes, both form types would increase Barrier values but primarily stick to a single main gimmick. This wouldn't stop you from having multiple forms and/or builds. Manipulator would still be a good goto for "Containment" powers. Barriers affected by these forms include any utilizing non-fixed values such as Bulwark & Defensive Combo's barrier effects as well as those provided by power advantages such as "Solid Defense" & "Wall of Bullets".
Armor Piercing Debuff
- Targets affected by "Armor Piercing" take ???% more Piercing Damage. Also, when affected by a "Barrier" effect, 20% of incoming Piercing Damage is dealt to affected targets directly(pre-mitigation so it can be still resisted).
This would make enemies weaker to piercing damage by default like other damage type debuffs but also set piercing damage as a functional answer to barriers. It basically lets 20% of incoming piercing damage flat out ignore barriers for the duration of the debuff.
My honest thought on all the changes so far.
I like the powers that you made, they seem cool and fun.
I dislike the change to IDF completely as I liked it's former iteration.
Force Cascade charge up to damage ratio, for me, makes it a utility at best.
Crushing wave's change is nice and the advantages work well.
I have frustrations from having a build I got to work like I wanted, after many MANY years work, changed and semi unusable. But I don't know how actionable any of my emotions about the changes can be so I am gonna leave it at that.
I just hope that, when this is all said and done, that there will be powers that I can use to emulate cosmic energy blasts that don't have me floating, only hit one person, have sparkly stars in a beam, have darkness as a feature, or have me hunched over like I have scoliosis and lock my other powers out, in the future.
I just hope that, when this is all said and done, that there will be powers that I can use to emulate cosmic energy blasts that don't have me floating, only hit one person, have sparkly stars in a beam, have darkness as a feature, or have me hunched over like I have scoliosis and lock my other powers out, in the future.
I know what you mean - I similarly had a Force Cascade build that had had much tinkering and was my main character. FC is the reason I bought a freeform slot and what really got me into the game after seeing someone use it in an alert.
I've found the changes work, but you have to lean into them a bit as I can get the same results as previously, but now I have to utilise the other force powers and therefore the previous flavour of just "energy" is now more explicitly force - bubbles/gravity, etc. I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing - I think it's just because it was untouched for so long, people didn't tend to use force bits together (at least not for offense).
Several Tier 0 powers will cause the Shredded debuff upon completion. I request for Ricochet Throw - now a Tier 0 Power - to cause the Shredded debuff on a full charge without needing a 2 pt. Advantage.
This will pull the debuffing side of this ability in line with other powers in the same tier.
(Alternatively, consider a 'boomerang combo' power instead.)
In-game, I'm The_Kef -- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "That's really it for Champs."
Bug: Inertial Dampening Field
Where it happens: PTS (all ranks)
What happens: IDF places an stance animation lock on a character when it is slotted, like a "battle ready" pose. This is instantly removed when IDF is unslotted. Examples listed below.
- Thank you for boosting the scaling on this. It is now MUCH better than on LIVE
- It really does kind of play like Harbinger but with a heavy focus on shielding and utility. I do see myself making a support build with this now.
- Glad to see it can be used in Hybrid Role now as well.
- Glad to have the aura back as well!
Shielding Rune:
- Really happy to see END scaling pick up for this power's direct shield restoring.
- Actual shield it applies is much weaker now though, still the scaling it has now makes me want to take it as a power.
Gravitic Ripple
- Notes say this power should have a 10 second base CD, but it is 20 in game. If this is a typo, please ignore the bug I've posted about it.
Singularity Bomb
- Less intense sound, thanks!
Redirected Force
- Final petition for it to utilize Force Wall's VFX for the dome and for it to make caster immune to knocks for the duration!
Force Blast
- Refresh is working great.
Mindslayer:
- Very nice update to her abilities. She's almost fully Lore accurate as she can: Fly, Lunge, use TK Barrage, melee TK, TK Wave and use Lariat to ground foes. Pretty great overall. I just wish she had better hair!
Overall
Really liking how things are sitting right now for Force, shield based...END based...works well. I would like to see some changes implemented, mainly to Redirected Force's VFX and utility (knock immunity to caster) and some clarity around Gravitic Ripple. Also appreciate the update to PFF's tooltip. Definitely quite clear that PFF can't be worked on fully right now and nor should it, it should get the attention it deserves when the time comes.
Old Toggleform IDF scaled higher than this new passive IDF and was barely useful in any situations at all then, requiring no further input beyond ranking it to get the most out of it. Even buffed, this new IDF is still way worse than that; effectively worthless considering with constant shield application, it climbs up towards being vaguely equivalent to current/old Toggleform IDF with the same stats (which was already barely usable) in exchange for sacrificing the massive healing buff of some slotted passives, or incredible team-wide buffs of others, while requiring constant maintenance in the form of shield application. And once again, IDF already applied after every other form of resistance on Live; this is something anyone who tests now while they still can can easily find out, so nothing has changed in how IDF behaves; it's just had its numbers reduced, knock and CC resists that don't matter slapped on it, and then been squeezed into a slotted passive slot, making it take more and give less (healers care far more about their slotted passives more than their toggleforms, which was part of why old IDF having such bad (if still better than new IDF) stats wasn't a game-ender for it.)
If you for some reason need the team-wide chip damage to be weak for what kind of slot it's taking up, then Suggestion: give Inertial Dampening Field a healing strength buff effect to match it with other "healing plus secondary effects" support slotted passives.
For all the people that crow on about how "super omegalul ultra overpoweredz" auras are (even though they barely make a difference within your respective role if you're building your character correctly) this current IDF still isn't even half as good as a regular "bonus healing" slotted passive, let alone those lowbie-carry tools. And a pseudo-toggleform version of what was previously the weakest toggleform in a slotted passive slot really is a waste of a slot. Either that chip damage reduction needs to be good enough to justify this as a viable alternative to something like "oh, I get a DPS slotted passive's worth of extra Paranormal damage in addition to a large resting boost to healing output AND some Paranormal plus a lot of Dimensional damage resist," which is very, very mid, truthfully speaking, but sounds like a lot compared to something barely any different to leaving your passive slot empty, or IDF needs to simply be converted into another "healing plus secondary effect" support slotted passive. (Namely, beyond the already-abysmal-as-the-primary-effect-of-a-slotted-passive chip damage reduction, which not even a 6%x5 buff after having its base attributes jacked part-way back up comes CLOSE to saving, most enemies in the game completely ignore and bypass knock resists of upwards of 500% reliably, every single time, and many enemy CCs (like PSI Master Villains as just the easiest example) bypass ALL CC resists regardless of strength, including block CC resist, so an extra 100% to 150% or so doesn't matter to 99% of builds and players.)
The fact that the forums refuse to tell you how close you are to the character/post size limit until you attempt to post something that happens to be too big- and the automated spam filter will immediately completely lock you out of posting long-term if you attempt to post or edit posts too close to the character limit- is genuine agony.
Inertial Dampening Field appears to maintain the end pose of "activating a form" for the entire time it is slotted if animations are idle. Moving does not correct this, but overwrites the player-chosen idle animation/locomotion.
I'd also like to see that Vital Shielding scales with Endurance OR Presence, whichever is higher, as was the language with Compassion and Manipulator. This change could potentially open up viable alternative healing options and I'm all for that.
Comments
So I'm wondering what I'm missing because this makes sense to me...I was thinking that the Flat Damage Reduction was being changed into some sort of shield based on the language used.
But in practice...it is still Flat Damage Reduction, so I'm left wondering where it has been moved to behind the scenes unless like the rest of the passive, this effect is not working.
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Sorry, I'm just confused but...have you actually TESTED...the new changes? Or are you just making suggestions here?
Power Shield does actually refresh....so unsure why you are advocating for a nerf?
Also, the shield overlay is to indicate that the target is affected by Power Shield. It does not need to be removed since reading the effect clearly states that it doesn't shield the target from damage.
That being said, It might be a tad weird if it were removed IMO...
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I actually agree with this, it's visually confusing. There has to be a better way to show what's happening. To be honest the whole concept of "shielding" your enemy for your own advantage is mentally backwards.
Even just a change of the colour of the shield from blue to yellow or something on the health bar would be a quick fix.
That's odd. For me, its persisting the whole 10 seconds, and can still be ruptured repeatedly (including in the last 2 seconds). I have only used the version applied by Force Geyser and Singularity Bomb. I think it must be a bug since the icon says 10 seconds. I can also confirm that for me at least, it is refreshing as it should.
I have also had no issue with using Field Inversion with Protection Field or Mindful Reinforcement, so seems to also be a bug.
It's basically Force Cascade UTILITY-focused Cousin! Good damage, could get 10k on singlet targets too and I feel the CD is pretty fair for the Utilities it provides!
LOVE IT
Here is gifs, also using Shield Restoration as well and the Force Detonation with the KNOCK UP adv
The only thing I don't like is that the power is using Wind Blast/Open Palm Strike's animation...
I don't hate it but it feels like out of place with the rest of the set! And I would love to pair it with the hand cannon costume pieces
Suggestion: Give us Alternative Emanation points for Singularity Bomb
Like the others, Not very impressed with this power neither
Bug: Shield Restoration - Dizzying Impact! The description states it" Applies Disoriented to Affected targets" but It only applies Disoriented on a SINGLE target and ignores everything else on the AOE field of effect
If this was intentional please change it so it can apply Disoriented it ALL the effected targets in the AREA!
This power is PRETTY BAD, giving it such limited debuff ADV wont make it better
and for more synergies, more power outisde the FORCE needs to get access to Entropy Field ADVs
Suggestion: Give Ego Hold a Power Shield ADV
Suggestion: Give Telekinetic Wave a Power Shield ADV based on the Charge time VERY GOOD Decisions to make the Field Inversion an innate effect
Even thought the power would benefit from knock into center, Knock up is still good, even if it can be a little silly consider how high it knocks the targets
Restoration ADV is welcomed too
Just a note that the "Archery Combo: Snap Shot" Armor Piercing debuff refresh is ALSO called Frail Armor which can cause confusion
Suggestion: Rename Snap Shot's Frail Armor ADV into something else
I AGREE! Gravitic Ripple is just sad and pathetic now with its Gravity Well gone!
I agree one of the biggest issues with PFF tanks is that supports can't really help them recover shield. I think PFF should naturally take 50% of all incoming direct healing as shield repair, while 100% of direct shielding is taken as shield repair. Then again, I have no idea if this is feasible to implement.
Brick_McDuggins in game.
Whereas on PTS, identical build and conditions bar 10% Def from Tank role as IDF can only be used in Support Role:
Really confused now by the patch notes as Lunny said. Can we get some clarification please? At present, this just seems like a direct nerf as IDF is actually stronger (defense value wise) on LIVE than in PTS.
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Your suggestion: With the loss of this power as a Form. The unique VFX / Aura it has will be gone entirely. Please provide IDF's glow-fade aura it has when activated as a free aura within the Legacy Aura Vendor.
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I like this idea. Love the look of the Force runes btw
Your suggestion: For the sacrifices it takes to use this power in combat. Redirected Force must make you KNOCK IMMUNE for its duration.
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Please avoid this sort of update where you break multiple power sets at once, the number of people willing to retcon/respec this number of characters at one time can't be that high anymore
Suggestion
Leave IDF as a toggle. The Passive version is substandard and pointless. The Toggle version (which allows a character to add a little self/team defence to adapt to circumstance, at the cost of a reduction in damage) makes much more sense.
Dunno who's wrong or right, but I think you migth have misinterpreted what "take your damage resistance into account" means. Since any FDRs are FDRs by definition, they will of course occur right after damages are mitigated, right before they are substracted to your current health. I never expected current IDF/Invul/FDRs to do something else than substracting some damage to the mitigated value by your own resistance.
What I undertand with "take your damage resistance into account", is that shields and now IDF passive have their own pass of damage mitigation, but I can't figure out yet where in the equation. I bet they work like if they where their own entity with their own HP (= shield value) and shares your current damage resistance (both base layer and block layer most likely) and they take damage before yourself, and they are considered "dead" if the mitigated damage value is higher than their HP, and the rest of damage is once again mitigated by your own resistance.
I will try an exemple:
1000 HP
1000 SP (shield point)
100% resistance (it translates in damage divided by 2 with current damage mitigation equation)
4000 base damage taken
Fist pass: Shield calculation:
1000 SP - 4000 damages / 2 = -1000
You lose your shield, and you take 1000 damage
Second pass : HP calculation
1000 HP - 1000 damages / 2 = 500
You're left with 500 HP in that case.
If shield didn't have a mitigation pass, it would result in:
1000 SP - 4000 damage = 3000 damage
You lose your shield and you take 3000 damage
1000 HP - 3000 damage / 2 = -500
You're dead ^^'
All of this is speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised it's something like that, which would be the best case scenario. It means damage would be mitigated twice. It would also mean that IDF gets better the higher resistance you have. With the hypothesis of a DPS geared with end game gear, I notice you usually get a least around 50% damage resistance, which mean in that case, IDF passive r3 with 89 damage reduction would be equivalent at about 120 FDRs : it means with 50% damage resistance, you'd need to take more than 120 point of damage to actully lose health.
Hmm, your test on PTS definitely shows IDF isn't working as we understand by its description
"Takes your resistance into account" means the damage reduction is applied on mitigated damage, and not on base damage. Do you know anything that substact damage on base damage ?
It would mean IDF passive definitely sucks ultra hard lol
That's precisely the problem that Lunny and I are alluding to.
Inertial Dampening Field has ALWAYS been a Flat Damage Reduction.
This means it shaves off whatever is incoming first by a set amount. So whether it took your resistances into account or not is a moot point because it isn't a SHIELD.
It literally absorbs a set amount of damage from incoming attacks.
Incoming attacks are calculated from your resistances pretty quickly after checks to see if anything is in the way of your HP.
Dodge/Avoid > Flat Damage Reduction (Absorbs) > Field Surge/Unbreakable > Shields & Damage Shields > Bastion > Your Resistances > PFF (if PFF) > Health Points.
So from that priority list above, you can see that if I had dodged something, that is taken into account first, then FDR and then Field Surge and then Shields etc.
(The interesting thing about this is that now Field Surge takes into consideration your resistances similar to PFF however, in the presence of shields like Protection Field, it will still layer over it due to its status as an active defensive and the layering order)
Example:
Flaming Larry's Fireball deals 17,000 Fire Damage to Bob The Superhero.
Bob The Superhero uses IDF and Bob's IDF absorbs 1000 points of damage.
So even if in this example, Bob had 0% resistance (and we assume there are no negative resistance debuffs on him), the maximum that the incoming Fireball can do is 16,000 damage, provided Bob's IDF is active, because it absorbs 1000 damage from any incoming attack.
In CO of course, if an attack is technically totally consumed, it cannot do 0 damage, so it MUST do between 1 - 2 damage regardless of how well protected you are (provided you are not covered by a non PFF shield).
So even if Bob The Superhero had 400% resistance, because IDF is a Flat Damage Absorb, it will only take a set amount of damage from an ability. It doesn't actually matter where that damage falls in the layering equation because unlike shields, FDR applies anywhere.
It works exactly the same for Invulnerability and Unstoppable as well. That's how its easy to tell if those passives are working from an FDR perspective.
Now if FDR was completely removed as a mechanic to make DoTs more dangerous, we'd have a much much bigger issue, because that would be a wholly unnecessary and vicious nerf.
The confusion was due to the language used initially I think around IDF having a "Shield Effect". When players think about "Shield Effects"...they think:
- Field Surge
- Personal Force Field
- Energy Refraction
- Protection Field
- Hardened Particle Matrix
- Mindful Reinforcement
- Bastion
- Unbreakable & other Damage Shields
They don't think of Invuln, IDF or Unstoppable because those are not shields, they are passives or powers with Flat Damage Reduction.
This is why earlier I assumed that that IDF had been changed into a shield effect much like PFF and that is what the description in patch notes was getting at. Now though, I *clearly* see that is not the case.
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What we're saying is that IDF reduces at the end of calculation already, so it already counts resistance. Shields and Flat Damage Reduction are different things. If you take 1000 damage while blocking and IDF reduces 100 damage, when you take 1000 damage again but have IDF on, you'll reduce it to 900. That's true both live and PTS (except R3 IDF in PTS is bugged where it uses R2 values, keeps you on combat idle animation and doesn't spread to others, R2 seems to be working normal, couldn't test if it spread to others though).
So nothing changed. This example is great to highlight this because Blocking gives you an immense amount of resistances, so if anything was different, you'd notice.
The text is different on purpose. Shields give you a specific amount of "Health" as a shield, which CAN or not count resistances depending on the shield, once the shield is gone your protection is gone. FDR (Flat Damage Reduction) does not give you any amount of "health", it just reduces the damage at the end of all calculations.
The distinction is important because in any game you have FDR, the idea is to use it against multiple attacks/mobs. Whereas a shield is to stop you from getting bursted. You *can* think of IDF applying a shield on you right as you're about to get hit that reduces damage, but that's a rather convoluted way to think about it I'd say rather than it just reduces damage taken while active.
This appears to still be mentioned on Force Cascade's advanced tooltip description. Please can it be removed?
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Yes, exactly the same, hence my long, useless post earlier x). Since INVUL/IDF form/Devious Shield mods/etc. takes effect by default after damage are mitigated, I thought adding "takes your resistance into account" in the description meant IDF passive worked differently.
I don't agree. FDR must be one of the last things computed before you loose health. Two exemples with 100% resistance:
FDR before mitigation:
(1000 damage - 200 FDR) / 2 = 400 total damage taken
FDR after mitigation:
(1000 damage / 2) - 200 FDR = 300 total damage taken
Kais wrote us that IDF passive works like in the second case, just like before, while nobody ever expected it was something different and where other FDRs don't have that clarification in their own description. Uneeded and confusing clarification x)
END also does not provide anything a barrier support player would potentially want, and the stat allocation meant for this playstyle is needlessly confusing. If barrier support could be homogenized to be centered around a single stat that would be great (preferably not PRE since there's so much going for that already)
new IDF is all superstats. That's the plan for all auras when those are getting updated too.
Suggestion: give Singularity Bomb emanation points
Your suggestion: as already suggested elsewhere, having played around with it a bit more, it does fit a little oddly with the rest of the force animations. Those that create projectiles tend to be fairly low action movements, with the flashier ones being instant hit.
I have to agree with suggestions around the animation but I'd suggest something simpler.
Suggestion: Singularity Bomb
Your suggestion: Consider trading Singularity Bomb's current character model animation, for that of Ebon Ruin / Fireball. So the Singularity Bomb forms whilst standing. The current animation looks a bit too out of character for Force.
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I feel like the mechanics could be streamlined a bit, made more straightforward. Multiple powers are sometimes required to do one thing. It’s (overall) a heavy investment and not nearly as rewarding (especially if you’re going the Support/shields route). I don’t see many players going for it, in this current state, except maybe for theme reasons strictly. Bubbling/shielding your teammates (like healing), needs to feel gratifying. This revamp is the opportunity to do it! 🙌
Secondly:
1)- Redirected Force: again, I do like the VFX, it’s pleasant and appropriate enough. But I must insist that you reutilize Force Shield/Wall’s FX (or even a R2 Protection Field?), most of all to keep with the set’s aesthetics, preserve its visual cohesiveness. Just like Power Armor's got the signature “hive” pattern, Force has well-established and consistent (great-looking, too) visual effects for shields/protective bubbles.
And I think it might actually be clearer than the current version on PTS (with proper adjustments as needed). Speaking of: consider making the field’s bottom (by where it hits the ground) and top borders, a little stronger and defined with energy; with a subtle, gradient transparency effect towards the middle (LoS area). This should help give the field a better sense of encompassment, which is what I think is lacking. Add a Knock Back (or better yet, a *strong* initial Repel effect, as you push the force-field outwards) applied to mobs caught in the AoE, decreasing as they attempt to come back into the dome. And finally: rename this awesome power to Force Dome!
2)- Gravitic Ripple: has completely lost its appeal. Used to be stupid fun, now it's just kinda there.
Please revert it to the previous version.
Suggestion: perhaps instead, create a new power around the desired Repel AoE mechanic? Example: a maelstrom of orbiting Force spheres that damage and repel enemies around you.
3)- Force Eruption: could use a radius increase, I think (as an Advantage, perhaps?). Pales in comparison to similar powers such as TK Eruption and Energy Wave… currently, enemies *really* need to like, get in your grill, for it to be any kind of effective as a Knock Back AoE.
4)- Nimbus of Force device: make it into a Force power, or even better: a new mechanic or Advantage within Protection Field; i.e., allowing you to choose between deploying a single bubble as usual, at full power; OR the 5-nearby-ally (Nimbus of Force) version, albeit weaker / shared protection – ... something like that. Could potentially make PF (and Force while Support), a little more fun and dynamic.
5)- Force Wall (Power Suggestion): akin to Ice Barrier, with Force’s signature shielding FX. I’m thinking, a large “squircle”-shaped (square with rounded corners) Force construct you place in front of you, that allies can go behind as well for protection. Maybe give it some fun mechanisms or advantages to make it more compelling? For example: you may choose to refresh/maintain it for longer, feeding its HP with your own shield effects (such as PFF, if you have it). Or that allies blasting from behind the wall gain a ranged DMG buff, as though boosted/charged with kinetic energy.
6)- Force Hover Disk (Travel Power Suggestion): reskin of light Hoverboard. Suggested VFX: a disk-shaped R3 Force Shield, with the energy shifting slightly according with the direction & speed. The character’s hands might be emanating the same VFX used for Force Cascade/Blast charge.
7)- I love the FX for shielding applied to enemies, it’s a soft flowy aura/glow, exactly as I’d imagined it should be! But I agree with a fellow poster above, in that it should have different signage on the enemy’s health bar, as there isn’t an actual shield protecting them (“field”, instead = more appropriate term when referring to enemies). It’s a priming effect: might be that the target is sheathed with a kind of unstable, rapidly-shifting energy or whatever – so, I’m thinking, maybe like a glow-y outline, or a soft pulse/flashing effect onto the bar itself…? IDK.
Suggestion
Instead of Force Blast applying Demolish Debuff and Force Geyser having the refresh adv perk, could we just have Force Geyser be the one to apply Demolish? It'll help with making better investments in power/skill points with builds.
Typically its the Tier 0 blast power that applies a debuff. I don't see a reason to change this?
At present Force Blast is a great buff and debuff applier and Force Geyer has a bunch of new utility.
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I think it would make things simpler?
Hmm, I see.
I guess maybe I'd say instead of requesting less options, perhaps just more? Maybe an advantage on Force Geyser that applies Demolish instead of just refreshing it?
I'm pretty biased since I like it the way it is now but more options might be nice too!
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Yeah! Hah hah, I love all the changes so much and can't wait for it all to go live!!! I think I'm just at a part where it's a bit of a hard time deciding what to scale back on because there are so many goodies now to work with.
I agree with this suggestion as well. For me I very much dislike the clunkiness of having to fully charge force blast in order to apply demolish. I would much rather use force geyser since it is a quick power to apply demolish, similar to the quick and easy ball lightning power is used in electricity.
Having said that...
Suggestion
Can we please get some innate abilities in some of these force powers? I appreciate the innate field inversion on force detonation, but an innate Power Shield ability on like say force geyser or some other power wouldn't go amiss.
I agree that the stats used in the new setup could be a bit more streamlined.
Suggestion
Would like to see kinetic manipulation's energy recovery scale with endurance rather than recovery since END is used for both the new force toggle forms and energy unlocks.
Suggestion:
Restore the old toggleform IDF with the same stats- it already functioned exactly the same way it was supposedly corrected to function now- while implementing the new IDF as a new support slotted passive that, in addition to its current stats, doubles the base strength of any Shield effect applied by the user directly or indirectly, and gives a bonus to Crushing damage to the user, making it a Force-and-Shield-centric equivalent to Fire's Hearth or Celestial's Seraphim.
This is my cry for help
Suggestion 1:
Revamp the game's basic concept of shields.
By definition, "Shields" are typically things that provide protection against outside forces, whereas "Barriers" are typically things that prevent direct access to something else such as an amount of additional health preventing access to your actual health. Shields are meant to be impenetrable & direct while barriers are typically temporary & limited measures.
So moving forward...
"Barriers" apply "damage absorption"(pre-mitigation). Barriers serve as extra health or vitality which has to be depleted BEFORE actual health can be damaged. They do not need to factor in target resistances as their max values indicate their relative power. The quicker you can replace and/or stack them, the more useful they become.
Note: This is basically the current concept behind shields. These types of shields could just be rebranded as "Barriers". As far as vfx, maybe you could quickly see an energy box or cylinder being built around your target(vs bubble) then it goes away & you get an additional health bar the same as how shields currently give. It could represent the combined value of all barrier stacks so the value would increase every time you see that effect.
"Shields" apply "damage reduction"(post-mitigation). Shields apply FDR, or Flat-rate Damage Reduction directly to targets(think targeted IDF). The amount of reduction indicates the power of the effect. This reduction applies AFTER initial damage calculation & the reduction amounts would in general be pretty small & always let through at least 1 damage from any incoming attacks.
Note: Same vfx as current shield powers(bubbles that begin to darken & pulse as strength builds) without the additional health meter on affected targets since barriers would use this.
Suggestion 2:
All direct shield powers become maintained powers. (More Detailed examples of the following towards the bottom)
Protection Concept: You create a weak shield(low FDR) & start feeding it energy which builds it up making it thicker & more durable, but it takes a while to reach maximum power. If you manage to fully maintain/empower it, then it lingers for a couple seconds giving you time to start feeding it again. If you fail to do so in time though, the energy dissipates & you have to start over from scratch.
Containment Concept: Same concept as above with key differences: This power is treated as an incapacitate power so enemies can break free, & the shield goes away if you stop maintaining it or it's broken. This power would not inflict damage by default. Also, the FDR & energy cost would be a bit lower than Protection Field ideally because you wanna give enemies bare minimum benefit. Since shields would now use FDR which isn't strong against large damage values & most enemies don't block it shouldn't. Overall, it's not going to be nearly as beneficial to enemies as simply cutting player damage in half like in the past.
Field Inversion: A one point advantage that makes Containment Field start to shrink inflicting crushing damage to your target as you maintain it. This damage would increase with maintain time. (A field that reduces outside damage more & more over time begins to cause scaling damage from the inside. That's a literal Field Inversion mechanic. This is how I'd salvage the whole Containment & Inversion gimmick.)
Suggestion 3:
Add "Barrier" powers as a secondary utility for shield-users. These could be charge powers that increase the value of the barrier with charge time. Charge time could also affect their max duration. On top of that, you could give these barriers the ability to stack sequentially(last applied is first hit) vs needing to repair/refresh them since they typically wouldn't be meant to last long. There could be a cap of say 3 barriers per source(self/other) & 9 max regardless or source.
Note: Basically, you can apply up to 3 barriers to yourself & 3 to targets. If already affected by 3 of your active barriers then further barriers cast by you won't apply while those by others will until the target has up to 9 max. If a target is affected by 9 barrier stacks then no barriers can apply to them until existing ones either get destroyed or time out.
Why? Well...
A shield being a click & forget power feels wrong conceptually. The concept of maintaining shields is pretty familiar & basic in the hero genre. Powering them should require focus & actively burn through your energy resources like healing maintains do. Currently, direct shields are static entities born of an energy sacrifice that despawn after taking a set amount of damage or timing out. Basically, they're uncontrolled pets. As "Barriers" they become more logical without needing to change at all. Barriers already are that in concept.
By design "Barriers" would be independent entities so your resistances mean nothing. They'll be taking full damage pre-mitigation with their only resistance and/or strength being their values. Making them charge powers allows direct strength manipulation by users while allowing them to stack & need to be defeated sequentially(last applied is first hit) makes them even more viable as a gimmick.
Think of having to break through 3 brick walls to get to something inside: 1st(1000HP), 2nd(2000HP), 3rd(1500). A 2500 damage attack could clear the 1st easily but not all of the 2nd. Meanwhile, a 5000 damage attack would smash all 3 walls in an instant & hit the target with 500 damage(pre-mitigation). Your resistances would then mitigate that 500 damage. This is typically how barriers work. Shields on the other hand typically repel or reduce impacts & are built to not break or falter. It's typically the person holding a shield who breaks before their shield does so having to maintain a shield to keep it in effect also makes more sense.
The numbers...
Since there may be multiple incoming sources of damage reduction(FDR), I believe they should all just stack & add to a collective pool of FDR per target. The pooled amount could be averaged out by the number of incoming sources including protection powers & IDF auras. The same could apply for containment powers on enemies. Allowing reduction numbers to add up vs average out would end up too OP.
Personally, I feel like values on shield maintains should be about half what heal maintains can do in health recovery on average & have to slowly scale up to substantial values vs being a fairly constant value per tick. Basically, a 250(base) per 0.5 second heal hitting 8 times max(2000 total over 4 secs) would be matched by a shield that applies 100>200>300>400(base) FDR every 1 second over 4 secs(1000 total). Given that FDR would potentially be reducing damage from multiple sources as it builds up power, this would still be very effective in practice against small damage values. It's weakness would be to sudden big damage like crits & charged attacks which typically sport big numbers.
Charged barriers would be the counter to charged heals & the answer to protecting targets from big damage by absorbing some of that damage pre-mitigation. Any remaining damage would get mitigated by your resistances(all damage resistance from blocking, defense, gear, and/or dodging reduction). Shields would then further reduce any leftover damage a player would take allowing small amounts of FDR to be effective.
Below are revamped powers utilizing this change in basic concept:
Protection Field
- While maintained, this power applies a small amount of "Damage Reduction"(FDR) to your target.
- The initial reduction amount scales with END & increases with maintain time. (Simulates it getting denser)
- After fully maintaining this power, the "Shield" effect will linger on your target for 2 seconds. If your Protection Field is re-applied to that target before time ends, it will begin at maximum power as if fully maintained from the start.
- Advantage: Solid Defense(3) - This power now also applies a "Barrier" to your target at the start of the maintain. The "Damage Absorption" of this "Barrier" effect scales with END & lasts for up to 3 seconds. This "Barrier" effect counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply if your target is already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
Note: The shield would take the edge off of lesser damage like DoTs & maintains while the optional barrier would help mitigate big damage. It's best of both worlds.
Protection Zone - New Power
- While maintained, this power applies a small amount of "Damage Reduction"(FDR) to your targets. (Much higher energy costs than Protection Field even with only one target.)
- Base damage reduction decreases based on the number of affected targets.
- The initial reduction amount scales with END & increases with maintain time. (Simulates it getting denser)
- After fully maintaining this power, the "Shield" effect will linger on your targets for 2 seconds. If your Protection Zone is re-applied to that target before time ends, it will begin at maximum power as if fully maintained from the start.
- Advantage: Solid Defense(3) - This power now also applies a "Barrier" to affected targets at the start of the maintain. The "Damage Absorption" of this "Barrier" effect scales with END as well as the number of affected targets & lasts for up to 3 seconds. This "Barrier" effect counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply to targets already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
Note: This would make for a nice higher tier power. Zone maintains would have very steep energy costs.
Containment Field
- 50ft Single Target Maintained Incapacitate Power
- While maintained, this power applies a small amount of "Damage Reduction"(FDR) to your target. This reduction scales slightly over maintain time.
- After being fully maintained, the "Shield" effect will linger on your target for 2 seconds. If your Containment Field is re-applied to that target before time ends, it will begin at maximum power as if fully maintained from the start. (This means it would be harder to break out of from the start. Also, Field Inversion damage would also start maxed out & be consistent throughout the maintain.)
- If broken or interrupted before being fully maintained, this power is placed on a 10 second cooldown. This cooldown is shared by all "Containment" powers.
- Advantage: Field Inversion(1) - This power now applies a shrinking effect, inflicting crushing damage to your target. The base damage scales with PRE & increases over maintain time. (For manipulation users)
Note: The revamped CF is set to apply "Power Shield" to enemies which rewards energy to the cast when those targets take damage. This isn't bad & could even stick around with this version. It doesn't address the disappointing "Containment" gimmick. The fix for that IMO is to minimize enemy benefit which this does because most enemies won't benefit much from low numbers of FDR since most don't block & it only applies while maintaining the power. The Field Inversion mech also makes more sense here as an advantage since it makes a field that reduces damage from the outside then inflict damage on the inside.
Containment Zone - New Power
- 25ft PBAoE Maintained Incapacitate Power (1 to 5 targets max)
- While maintained, this power applies a small amount of "Damage Reduction"(FDR) to your targets. This reduction scales slightly over maintain time.
- After being fully maintained, the "Shield" effect will linger on affected targets for 2 seconds. If your Containment Zone is re-applied to those targets before time ends, it will begin at maximum power as if fully maintained from the start. (This means it would be harder to break out of from the start. Also, Field Inversion damage would also start maxed out & be consistent throughout the maintain.)
- If interrupted before being fully maintained, this power is placed on a 20 second cooldown. This cooldown is shared by all "Containment" powers.
- Advantage: Field Inversion(1) - This power now applies a shrinking effect, inflicting crushing damage to targets. The base damage scales with PRE & increases over maintain time. (For manipulation users)
Bulwark - New Power
- Tap: Applies a "Barrier" to your target or self. The base Damage Absorption(value) provided by this "Barrier" effect scales with your END. Duration is capped at 3 seconds.
- Charge: Increases damage absorption of the barrier. Extends barrier duration to up to 9 seconds.
- This "Barrier" effect counts towards your target's global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply if your target is already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
- Advantage: Expel Impurity(1) - Removes DoT effects from your target. Number of effects removed scales with rank.
Fortification - New Power
- Tap: Applies a shared "Barrier" around self & nearby allies. The base Damage Absorption(value) provided by this "Barrier" effect scales with your END. Duration is capped at 2 seconds.
- Charge: Increases damage absorption of the barrier. Extends barrier duration to up to 6 seconds.
- This "Barrier" effect counts towards your target's global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply to targets already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
- Advantage: Purification(1) - Removes DoT effects from your targets. Number of effects removed scales with rank.
This would be a high tier power & have a very high energy cost especially on full charge so you would need lots of energy.
Field Conversion - New Power
- For the next 15 seconds, targets affected by one your direct shields grant you healing every two seconds over 6 seconds, stacking up to 5 times.
- Shares a cooldown with other self heal over time powers.
This basically heals you while you use Protection Field/Zone. Using Protection Zone will allow it to immediately gain up to 5 stacks depending on how many allies you can apply it to. You would cast this first then start the maintains. Every time a "Protection" power starts it'll check for affected targets & apply stacks of Field Conversion.
Barrier Conversion - New Power
- Consumes all "Barrier" effects applied by you on self & nearby teammates healing those around you for each consumed. Note: This will consume the "Barrier" effect provided by your Personal Force Field as well!
- Advantage: Smart Filter(1) - This power will no longer consume the barrier provided by your Personal Force Field.
Basically, you exchange your barriers for a burst of healing on everyone around you. The more barriers in total consumed, the more powerful the heal on everyone.
Inertial Dampening Field
- Improves the effectiveness of your shields effects by increasing the "damage reduction" provided by direct shield powers by ???% based on your super stats.
- Applies a Damage Reduction aura on self & up to 20 allies/teammates within 100ft. This aura counts as a "Shield" effect & scales with your super stats. (It's a passive team-wide shield. Shield maintains further, though only temporarily, add to the FDR pool of targets.)
- Additionally, direct shielding friendly targets applies a "Barrier" to self lasting for up to 3 seconds. Damage Absorption(value) on this "Barrier" effect scales with the rank of this power. This "Barrier" effect counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply if already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects.
Note: This power is all about protecting others. It rewards you with barriers when you cast shields on allies while making shields more effective. The recently added boost to shield strength through stacks will become how shielder form powers work(see further down).
Personal Force Field
- Applies passive Damage Reduction(FDR) to self scaling with your super stats. This counts as a "Shield" effect.
- Applies an active "Barrier" to self. The base Damage Absorption(value) provided by this "Barrier" effect scales with your super stats. This barrier counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. Additional applied barriers will always stack on top of this barrier & will not apply if already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects. (This will always be treated as the first barrier applied you & the last to break.)
- The "Barrier" provided by this power passively repairs itself every 3 seconds. This repair amount scales with your REC.
- While current energy is higher than current equilibrium value, this power will consume the excess energy by ?? every 1 second to actively repair of your "Barrier". This repair happens independently of this power's passive repair effect & the amount scales with the rank of this power.
Note: This power is all about shielding yourself. It absorbs large amounts of damage(pre-mitigation) with its "Barrier" effect & reduces lesser damage(post-mitigation) with its "Shield" effect. Conceptually, the active "Barrier" repair has lots of ways to trigger: Excess energy gained from successfully blocking, END-based energy unlock effects, CoAP, specs such as Endurance's Kickback & Recovery's Efficient, etc. It also pairs nice with Endurance's mastery spec as well. Stacking END typically means very high max energy vs equilibrium so the repair effect could trigger very often. Too much REC vs END could hurt your build with this version because you want higher max energy than equilibrium.
Field Surge
- This power provides a "Barrier" and/or repairs Personal Force Field's "Barrier" by the same amount.
- The Damage Absorption provided by this power's "Barrier" effect is based on the rank of this power.
- This "Barrier" effect counts towards your global cap of 3 per source. It will not apply if already affected by 3 of your "Barrier" effects. (The shield/barrier is no longer the main effect.)
- This power increases your END & REC by ?? while active. (Rank based)
- When activated, fills your energy to its current maximum, increases energy generation, & decreases energy decay for 15 seconds. Meanwhile, damage dealt is decreased by 10%. (New main effect. Does not increase equilibrium but fills your energy bar higher than normal thanks to the stat boosts & actively tries to make that excess energy last as long as possible. This is all for the next effect.)
- Additionally, the active repair rate Personal Force Field's "Barrier" is doubled for the next 15 seconds. (Basically, Personal Force Field will now consume excess energy by ?? every 0.5 seconds to actively repair its barrier rather than every 1 second. This repair will still only occur while current energy exceeds equilibrium.)
Presence Mastery - Heal Bubbles
This will basically ensure that you always have at least one barrier going up every 3 seconds while you're healing and/or shielding someone. Note that these fixed value barriers won't be nearly as strong as ones applied by Bulwark and/or Fortification.
Rampart & Bastion
- Due to utilizing fixed values, form powers do not affect the absorption values of these barriers.
For the sake of dependent powers/advantages, tooltips have been updated to specify that having these effects active are the only requirements even if their "Barrier" effects are being prevented from applying due to the global cap.
Defensive Combo, Wall of Bullets, & ect.
- Since these effects don't use fixed values, form powers do scale up the absorption values of these barriers.
- As "Barrier" effects these effects no longer consider player resistances. (This should be fine since they quickly re-apply/stack & now scale with form bonuses.)
Currently, these effects aren't benefitted by shield forms or passives since they aren't "direct shields". This ensures they receive some support as well since they require advantage point commitment as well.
Toggle Forms
- Shielder specific forms increase "Shield" effect reduction(FDR on "shield" powers) & "Barrier" effect absorption(max value) by ??% for each stack & scale with END/REC. They also increase melee & ranged damage to a lesser degree. (Basically, this would function partially like IDF's current support passive boost to shielding strength by utilizing stacks to increasing FDR amount & scaling on barriers.)
- Healer specific forms increase heal effect strength(bonus healing?) & "Barrier" effect absorption" & scale with PRE/REC. They also increase melee & ranged damage to a lesser degree.
Note: Shielders shouldn't necessarily be good healers & vice versa or there's not much to each individual gimmick. With these changes, both form types would increase Barrier values but primarily stick to a single main gimmick. This wouldn't stop you from having multiple forms and/or builds. Manipulator would still be a good goto for "Containment" powers. Barriers affected by these forms include any utilizing non-fixed values such as Bulwark & Defensive Combo's barrier effects as well as those provided by power advantages such as "Solid Defense" & "Wall of Bullets".
Armor Piercing Debuff
This would make enemies weaker to piercing damage by default like other damage type debuffs but also set piercing damage as a functional answer to barriers. It basically lets 20% of incoming piercing damage flat out ignore barriers for the duration of the debuff.
FC.31.20220721.7
I like the powers that you made, they seem cool and fun.
I dislike the change to IDF completely as I liked it's former iteration.
Force Cascade charge up to damage ratio, for me, makes it a utility at best.
Crushing wave's change is nice and the advantages work well.
I have frustrations from having a build I got to work like I wanted, after many MANY years work, changed and semi unusable. But I don't know how actionable any of my emotions about the changes can be so I am gonna leave it at that.
I just hope that, when this is all said and done, that there will be powers that I can use to emulate cosmic energy blasts that don't have me floating, only hit one person, have sparkly stars in a beam, have darkness as a feature, or have me hunched over like I have scoliosis and lock my other powers out, in the future.
I know what you mean - I similarly had a Force Cascade build that had had much tinkering and was my main character. FC is the reason I bought a freeform slot and what really got me into the game after seeing someone use it in an alert.
I've found the changes work, but you have to lean into them a bit as I can get the same results as previously, but now I have to utilise the other force powers and therefore the previous flavour of just "energy" is now more explicitly force - bubbles/gravity, etc. I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing - I think it's just because it was untouched for so long, people didn't tend to use force bits together (at least not for offense).
This will pull the debuffing side of this ability in line with other powers in the same tier.
(Alternatively, consider a 'boomerang combo' power instead.)
Where it happens: PTS (all ranks)
What happens: IDF places an stance animation lock on a character when it is slotted, like a "battle ready" pose. This is instantly removed when IDF is unslotted. Examples listed below.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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Internal Dampening Field:
- Thank you for boosting the scaling on this. It is now MUCH better than on LIVE
- It really does kind of play like Harbinger but with a heavy focus on shielding and utility. I do see myself making a support build with this now.
- Glad to see it can be used in Hybrid Role now as well.
- Glad to have the aura back as well!
Shielding Rune:
- Really happy to see END scaling pick up for this power's direct shield restoring.
- Actual shield it applies is much weaker now though, still the scaling it has now makes me want to take it as a power.
Gravitic Ripple
- Notes say this power should have a 10 second base CD, but it is 20 in game. If this is a typo, please ignore the bug I've posted about it.
Singularity Bomb
- Less intense sound, thanks!
Redirected Force
- Final petition for it to utilize Force Wall's VFX for the dome and for it to make caster immune to knocks for the duration!
Force Blast
- Refresh is working great.
Mindslayer:
- Very nice update to her abilities. She's almost fully Lore accurate as she can: Fly, Lunge, use TK Barrage, melee TK, TK Wave and use Lariat to ground foes. Pretty great overall. I just wish she had better hair!
Overall
Really liking how things are sitting right now for Force, shield based...END based...works well. I would like to see some changes implemented, mainly to Redirected Force's VFX and utility (knock immunity to caster) and some clarity around Gravitic Ripple. Also appreciate the update to PFF's tooltip. Definitely quite clear that PFF can't be worked on fully right now and nor should it, it should get the attention it deserves when the time comes.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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Where it happens : always, any rank
What happens : Gravity Ripple current cooldown is 20 seconds. Notes states it should be 10 seconds.
Suggestion
Decrease Nuclear Shockwave cooldown to 10 seconds, to be competitive and on part with other OV unlock powers.
If you for some reason need the team-wide chip damage to be weak for what kind of slot it's taking up, then Suggestion: give Inertial Dampening Field a healing strength buff effect to match it with other "healing plus secondary effects" support slotted passives.
For all the people that crow on about how "super omegalul ultra overpoweredz" auras are (even though they barely make a difference within your respective role if you're building your character correctly) this current IDF still isn't even half as good as a regular "bonus healing" slotted passive, let alone those lowbie-carry tools. And a pseudo-toggleform version of what was previously the weakest toggleform in a slotted passive slot really is a waste of a slot. Either that chip damage reduction needs to be good enough to justify this as a viable alternative to something like "oh, I get a DPS slotted passive's worth of extra Paranormal damage in addition to a large resting boost to healing output AND some Paranormal plus a lot of Dimensional damage resist," which is very, very mid, truthfully speaking, but sounds like a lot compared to something barely any different to leaving your passive slot empty, or IDF needs to simply be converted into another "healing plus secondary effect" support slotted passive. (Namely, beyond the already-abysmal-as-the-primary-effect-of-a-slotted-passive chip damage reduction, which not even a 6%x5 buff after having its base attributes jacked part-way back up comes CLOSE to saving, most enemies in the game completely ignore and bypass knock resists of upwards of 500% reliably, every single time, and many enemy CCs (like PSI Master Villains as just the easiest example) bypass ALL CC resists regardless of strength, including block CC resist, so an extra 100% to 150% or so doesn't matter to 99% of builds and players.)
This is my cry for help
I'd also like to see that Vital Shielding scales with Endurance OR Presence, whichever is higher, as was the language with Compassion and Manipulator. This change could potentially open up viable alternative healing options and I'm all for that.