Release Notes 7/30/2020

kaiserin#0958
kaiserin#0958 Posts: 2,754 Cryptic Developer
Rampage: Therakiel
This alert will be available for 2 weeks.
  • While this rampage is active, all rampage tokens can drop as a reward with increased chances of dropping from other Rampages.
  • The initial token drop has a much higher chance to drop over other Rampages.
  • The cooldown for the initial token drop resets after 20 hours (instead of 3 days).
  • Added as possible reward drops: Therakiel Dark Aura, Therakiel Light Aura, Belt of Therakiel costume, Summon Bound Nephilim device, Nephilim Halo costume, Nephilim Wings costume, Therakiel's Blade device.
  • While this Rampage is active for this event other Rampages will not be available.

Notable changes from lair version:
  • 10 players can take part.
  • Damage from Therakiel's sword attacks and ranged blasts can be split with up to 2 players.
  • Increased charge times on Eye Beams and Glory abilities.
  • Reduced rank and lower level enemies.
  • Eye Beams now hold up to 3 targets, but only the main target is damaged.




High Noon at Snake Gulch
This event will run for the next week.
  • New rewards for completing the missions: Sombrero and Chainsaw Sword costumes.




Therakiel's Temple
  • New possible reward drops: Traitorous Aura (Body), Nephilim Aura, Valerian Scarlet Epic Boots costume.
  • Added new visual tells for Therakiel's Dissonance, Radiant Blast and Infernal Blast abilities.



Rampages
  • Questionite rewards stop occurring after 3 runs (from 5), but the amount for the first 3 has increased.



Sky Command
  • Added travel boost effect. Increases the speed of flight and vehicles while on this map.
  • Added vehicle boost effect. Increases damage output of vehicles while on this map.
  • Reduced first wave timer to 5 minutes.
  • Added defeating Mega Destroid as a win condition for the mission.



Lemurian Invasion
  • Added vehicle damage boost field to map.
  • Added flight boost field to boss area.



Powers
All players have received a free respec.
  • Fixed a bug where ranks 2 and 3 of Firesnake were not properly pathing.
  • Fixed a bug where the Endless Void advantage could be dodged.



New Power: Bad Sector
Laser Sword
  • Creates a field that roots targets and has a chance to apply Plasma Burn.
  • Advantage (3): Applies a scaling shield while standing in the field.



Bullet Ballet
  • The third hit is now a pbaoe.
  • New Advantage (2): The Root and Stun chance are now guaranteed while affected by Furious.



Brimstone
  • Now knocks up on full charge. Knock down still occurs on less than full charge.
  • Disorient chance now scales with charge and rank.
  • New Advantage (2): No longer Disorients, but has a chance to Stun targets. Chance is guaranteed if target is affected by your Clinging Flames. Expires your Clinging Flames and applies Negative Ions in its place.
  • New Advantage (2): Applies Aegis. Foes affected by negative Ions are knocked towards you.



Tear Down
  • Advantage (2): Applies charged up for a short time when attacking targets.
  • Advantage (2): Work up heal.



Frenzy
  • Now a pbaoe. Cost has gone up to account for this.
  • New Advantage (2): Expires 1 stack of bleed on targets. For each stack expired heals you.




Devices
Become Celestial/Doomlord
  • These devices now have a 180 second cooldown.
​​
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Comments

  • kaiserin#0958
    kaiserin#0958 Posts: 2,754 Cryptic Developer
    edited July 2020
    Vehicle Powers
    In an effort to maintain open world content balance, we are reviewing all vehicle powers. Many of these powers were not performing as intended, or had performance values much higher than intended.
    • Fixed a bug where vehicles would sometimes not be able to critically hit.
    • Addressed an issue where vehicle powers with cooldowns did not go on global cooldown if multiples were equipped.
    • All vehicle power damage and cost values have been redone to follow a set cost/effect formula.
    • All vehicle mods now display tooltips. Keep in mind that the values will display based on your current bonuses, and do not reflect the actual numbers unless you are currently in a vehicle.
    • Removed vehicle specific resistance bonuses from various enemy groups.
    • The cost to remove vehicle mods and weapons will be dramatically reduced for the next week.



    Incendiary Rounds
    • Increased duration to 16 seconds.
    • Removed stacking.
    • Reduced aoe to 25ft.
    • Can no longer stack from multiple ranks.
    • Removed charge time.
    • Added 6 second cooldown.
    • Added a resistance debuff effect to this power. Scales with rank.
    • Updated damage to scale with your critical chance.



    Toxic Rocket
    • Increased dot duration to 16 seconds.
    • Added 6 second cooldown.
    • Added a perception debuff cloud effect to this power.
    • Updated damage to scale with your critical chance.



    Warning Shot
    • Power now applies threat over time.
    • Now has a 6 second cooldown.
    • Damage debuff no longer stacks.
    • Increased base damage debuff amount.
    • Damage debuff now scales per rank.
    • Significantly reduced the size of the FX.



    Flashbang
    • Power now applies threat over time.
    • Now has a 6 second cooldown.
    • Reduced Rank 3 threat generation.



    Gravity Pulse
    • Increased cooldown to 10 seconds.
    • Damage bonus from maintaining now scales with rank.
    • Reduced area effect to 25ft.



    Micromunitions
    • Cooldown increased to 10 seconds.
    • Corrected visuals not matching up with when the damage applied.
    • Added a cost reduction buff effect to this power. Scales with rank.



    Quick Reload
    • Reduced cooldown to 30 seconds.
    • Now applies energy over time for 10 seconds in addition to the initial energy burst.



    AA Missiles
    • Damage bonus no longer stacks.
    • Increased initial damage bonus.
    • Damage bonus now scales with rank.



    Containment Field
    • Can no longer target allies.



    Flamethrower
    • Increased bonus threat per hit.



    Heavy Cannon
    • Reduced area effect to 25ft.



    Singularity Bomb
    • Reduced area effect to 25ft.
    • Reduced knock effects.



    Plasma Beam
    • Increased chance to critically strike the longer you maintain this power.



    Strafing Barrage
    • Added chance to knock down targets.



    Medic Drone
    • Fixed a bug where the Healing Drone would wander around.



    Regeneration Ray
    • Increased healing output.



    Reload
    • Reduced time needed to use this power.
    ​​
  • rerrot
    rerrot Posts: 78 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    "Chainsaw Sword costumes."

    A 40k weapon skin... XD
  • panthrax77
    panthrax77 Posts: 299 Arc User
    You know, I had a feeling I had suggested the PBAoE change to Frenzy before and it turns out, I actually did!

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline/#/discussion/1214719/bestial-power-frenzy

    So even though that probably wasn't the catalyst for the new change, I'll just feel happy and pretend that it was~ :blush:
  • themightyzenith
    themightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    Damn, Trade Paperback Vendor not enabled for selling boxes for Q?


    When will this be switched on again, please?
    zrdRBy8.png
    Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
  • thisiscraftaaa
    thisiscraftaaa Posts: 55 Arc User
    Thank you for showing that you don't give a flying **** about community input regarding potential changes and only listen to your inner circle over on the discord. I didn't want to believe it at first but you just proved them right. Thanks for nothing for taking a massive dump all over people's work that is easily hundreds of hours worth of grinding down the drain.

    So, when will you be rolling out massive refunds for people who actually invested a lot of time/money/questionite/zen etc into the vehciles?



    Refunds? Refunds are a hoax propagated by the government to... something something something... something something.
    Defender save my soul, for I have sinned...
  • avianos
    avianos Posts: 5,582 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    High Noon at Snake Gulch
    This event will run for the next week.
    New rewards for completing the missions: Sombrero and Chainsaw Sword costumes.
    Look i'm really thankful for the two new costumes from the event BUT WHY did you release it the same time with THERAKIEL RAMPAGE which was suppose to be the Hyped Finale of the whole Therakiel Temple and Alerts revamp?
    Same thing happened with Eidolon I remember, You don't build the Hype of an Endgame boss by completly overshadow it with a regular Event which has nothing to do with it! You also split the playerbase's attention
    whywouldyoudothat.jpg

    Oh yeah R.I.P Vehicles my Baby MANTIS II Bike which I spend money and time investing and upgrading, is worthless, I'm too disappointed with the game's mishandling of development and no major powerframe revamp to be even bother being mad about this BS nerf
    But don't think I dont see the attempt to Sugar Coat this NERF update by introducing some small power updates and other shiny things! :grimace:
    Well my Healers can eat dirt now that they can no longer Solo the Qzone dailies with the Vehicle and Soloing is BAD MKAY? :grimace:


    Still waiting for the Archery Revamped mentioned in the DEVs Valentines' Day CC, at this point propably anniversary, where you gonna cut another feature of the game to piss off the playerbase​​
    Post edited by avianos on
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies
    Playing since 1 February 2011 87+ Characters (7 ATs, 80 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • avianos
    avianos Posts: 5,582 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    New Power: Bad Sector
    Laser Sword
    Creates a field that roots targets and has a chance to apply Plasma Burn.
    Advantage (3): Applies a scaling shield while standing in the field.

    Tear Down
    Advantage (2): Applies charged up for a short time when attacking targets.
    Advantage (2): Work up heal.
    Please more of this, if we could get new powers and mini power Upgrades/Revamps/Buffs every 1 or 2 weeks it would be Superb to expand synergies 👌👀
    Post edited by avianos on
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies
    Playing since 1 February 2011 87+ Characters (7 ATs, 80 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • panthrax77
    panthrax77 Posts: 299 Arc User
    I get that people are mad about incendiary rounds, but the rest of the changes honestly don't seem that bad to me. Just AoE range and cooldown nerfs for the most part. Most of the weapons got a few buffs to make up for the nerfs since that initial PTS nerf-fest.

    Is it just incendiary rounds that people are upset about, or are the cooldown nerfs really that bad?
  • panthrax77
    panthrax77 Posts: 299 Arc User
    That's always been the case, though. All that's changed is that incendiary rounds is no longer easy mode for grinding.

    I agree that some of the other weapons should get their damage boosted for sure, like aa missiles and micromunitions. That's been true forever.

    If you souped up your vehicle just to slam incendiary rounds to wipe out mobs left and right, sure I get why you would be mad. But if it was that strong in the first place, wouldn't you expect it to get nerfed at some point?
  • avianos
    avianos Posts: 5,582 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    Is it just incendiary rounds that people are upset about, or are the cooldown nerfs really that bad?
    OOOOOOH They are REALLY BAD! Really, Really REALLY Bad! :grimace:
    I'm trying to cope with layers of Irony and Sarcasm right now, but this is some serious Bait-and-Switch NERF and when your playerbase has been declining more and more over the years over the questionable decisions (Killing Subscription, Killing Offgame chat for lifetimers, Killing Global Chat cross CO, NWO and STE) you don't do such massive NERF on this level! It hurts the trust between Players and DEVs​​
    Post edited by avianos on
    POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point
    Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies
    Playing since 1 February 2011 87+ Characters (7 ATs, 80 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
  • jaazaniah1
    jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,874 Arc User
    I wonder if they will ever sell a vehicle in the Zen store after this to anyone who isn't an absolutely new player, or to someone one who just uses it for travel?theme? Looks like they are trying to make them somewhat useful in SC and LI (will be interesting to see reports on those Rampages), but I never use vehicles there.
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    Is it just incendiary rounds that people are upset about, or are the cooldown nerfs really that bad?
    The reason everyone used incendiary rounds is that most other vehicle weapons were unusably bad (exceptions: railgun, grav pulse). Vehicle weapons have now been standardized: all of them are unusably bad.
  • cyresofbsgo
    cyresofbsgo Posts: 17 Arc User
    GREAT, now My lvl 11 toons out DPS, My tier 2 vehicle that has 4 Rank3 weapons, 3 Rank7 Mods and 1 Rank 6 mod. seriosly I can take down the mobs over 4 times as fast on foot now.
  • iamrune
    iamrune Posts: 963 Arc User
    Doing this to vehicles after all the negative feedback you got about the changes is so wrong you should be ashamed of yourselves.

    I'm ashamed I ever believed in this game or this dev team, now. If only Jack Emmert were still here. Say what you will, but at least he took responsibility.
  • retehi#8400
    retehi#8400 Posts: 26 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    Really? Draysha only hits 1 person now?

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/336430953079635969/738582316254756904/spray.JPG

    good job

    reading sarcasm isn't your strongest suit, so please don't take"good job" seriously
    Post edited by retehi#8400 on
  • n8mcd
    n8mcd Posts: 320 Arc User
    The Draysha Gun now only affects 1 target.

    Harmon devices are now single-charge devices, but stack to 10.

    What other undeclared changes were made in this patch?

  • speanoz
    speanoz Posts: 236 Arc User
    n8mcd wrote: »
    The Draysha Gun now only affects 1 target.

    Harmon devices are now single-charge devices, but stack to 10.

    What other undeclared changes were made in this patch?

    Wait, what?! This can't be intentional...
  • aesica
    aesica Posts: 2,530 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    You know the vehicle changes make them underpowered when you also see boosts given to them for certain maps in order to maintain their relevance. ;)

    Oh well, at least the power changes like Bad Sector look somewhat interesting. Maybe. Still, super disappointed that the vehicle crap actually made it to live.
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    If you souped up your vehicle just to slam incendiary rounds to wipe out mobs left and right, sure I get why you would be mad. But if it was that strong in the first place, wouldn't you expect it to get nerfed at some point?
    People only "slammed incendiary rounds to wipe out mobs left and right" because most of the other vehicle weapons were subpar if not completely unusable. I fully expected the rank stacking to get nerfed eventually, and that would've been fine. Unfortunately everything else about it got nerfed too, and now it's little more than a damage debuffer that lets some other weak vehicle weapon be slightly less weak.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • flyingfinn
    flyingfinn Posts: 8,382 Arc User
    Still wondering why the Custom Alerts are downgraded to lvl 30....
    CHAMPIONS ONLINE:Join Date: Apr 2008
    And playing by myself since Aug 2009
    Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
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  • n8mcd
    n8mcd Posts: 320 Arc User
    speanoz wrote: »
    n8mcd wrote: »
    The Draysha Gun now only affects 1 target.

    Harmon devices are now single-charge devices, but stack to 10.

    What other undeclared changes were made in this patch?

    Wait, what?! This can't be intentional...

    Based on some digging around in the forums here and some stray chatter in game, it appears people were "harassing" others by hitting them with Draysha (which made them look fat?) causing some people to complain on the forums and presumably submitted tickets. That seems to have triggered making a person with a fun nullifier untargettable with Draysha, but the "harassers" started targetting others near them to hit the intended target with the AoE effect, which still worked. So now it's single target, and cannot be used on the fun-nullified.

    Instead of just dropping the VFX for the stupid draysha, at least on the fun-impaired
  • spordelia
    spordelia Posts: 413 Arc User
    There’s some next-level ripe BS that’s been going on with this game for quite some time, and people are finally catching up to it. About f*n time. #Champions Online #ADevAndHer5FriendsOnline

    I don’t care if we’ve had years where nothing was happening (that’s a looow bar btw and used for too long as an excuse). I’d rather that than the sense of dread I now have when opening patch notes. And I don’t care what anyone says: this so-called “Developer” is the single worst thing that has ever happened to this once great, fun game and community. I’m done with this.

    (Delete my posts, ban, shadow ban, do your thing IDGAF)

    giphy.gif
  • jaazaniah1
    jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,874 Arc User
    I wonder if they'll at least make all bound player vehicles unbound so they can try to dump them on the AH?
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • ealford1985
    ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    Some of you guys conspiracy theories are hilarious.
  • daderganonumbers
    daderganonumbers Posts: 63 Arc User
    Nerfing the weapons aside, is there some reason my Shuriken is crawling along at a gentle strolling speed and not recovering energy after a futile attempt at speed boost?
  • squirrelloid
    squirrelloid Posts: 869 Arc User
    Therakiel rampage is almost unplayably hard for public queuing. There's so many mechanics people have no clue about, it requires over a minute explaining to people before the fight what to do, half of which they'll promptly forget and die to.

    Games are supposed to *teach mechanics* before hitting you with 'do them or die' situations, not randomly drop you into a fight where you need to already know what to do. Cybermind at least has sufficient visual cues and a cutscene that hints at the right actions, and it's just one mechanic. Therakiel has at least 4 separate mechanics that need explanation. Removing the aura spheres and mirror puzzles from the lead ups (the rampage and all the TT alerts) was also a terrible decision, as people now get to Therakiel having no idea how these things work. So the few mechanics the game does teach you... don't get taught in the alerts/rampage, yet these are supposed to help you 'learn the fights'.

    (Also not helping that certain players quit rather than try to help players who don't understand what's happening.)

    Considering something the devs did broke private queues for me in the last ~6 months (I CTD whenever joining or starting a PQ), yes, public queuing viability matters. (Contacted customer support, they laughably had me upgrade a graphics driver that was a month out of date, expecting that to fix the issue. Needless to say, it didn't, and there was no way this super-specific thing was caused by a slightly old driver).

    Also, after 8 weeks of suffering through bad cutscenes because people couldn't be bothered to skip them, we don't get to see the one cutscene from TT I actually want to see. It's one of the top cutscenes in the game, but i guess you have to have the time and right friends to do the lair if you want to see it (and suffer through 4 terrible cutscenes plus get yelled at by whomever you're running it with for not skipping all of them).
    panthrax77 wrote: »
    That's always been the case, though. All that's changed is that incendiary rounds is no longer easy mode for grinding.

    I agree that some of the other weapons should get their damage boosted for sure, like aa missiles and micromunitions. That's been true forever.

    If you souped up your vehicle just to slam incendiary rounds to wipe out mobs left and right, sure I get why you would be mad. But if it was that strong in the first place, wouldn't you expect it to get nerfed at some point?

    Most weapons got damage nerfs. Heavy Cannon does literally half as much damage compared to pre-patch, for example. (It's to the point where my character deals more damage tapping brimstone than using Heavy Cannon - one of these has a ~2s charge time, i'll let you guess which. My character already did more damage per time pre-patch, and that's even with the bug where heavy cannon didn't need to charge, but at least vehicles used to be able to see the same ballpark with binoculars).

    Incendiary went from decent damage to basically zero damage. (It's not even statistically relevant anywhere). It's not just the stacking bug getting fixed. (Which is all it should have been).

    And so on. Plus the AoE nerf means they don't even have an area advantage.

    No vehicle weapon is useable in any content at this point. I see literally no reason to use a vehicle anymore except as a no-attack flight device.
  • kaiserin#0958
    kaiserin#0958 Posts: 2,754 Cryptic Developer
    Re: Draysha. It only affecting one target is a bug, and will be fixed next week.​​
  • yannbios
    yannbios Posts: 49 Arc User
    Things get nerfed and same people quit to only come back .
  • nique554
    nique554 Posts: 60 Arc User
    Ehh, people had bigger tantrums over subs being removed, this will also be forgotten in a few weeks.
  • ealford1985
    ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    @weewoozesty clearly it was forgotten about because this isn’t the first time...see plasma burn.

    @lezard21 oh I mean @l3zardvaleth Does the T also stand for trolling? Isn’t that what you do?
  • themightyzenith
    themightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    Edited as the person I was responding to has apparently been banned
    Post edited by themightyzenith on
    zrdRBy8.png
    Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
  • themightyzenith
    themightyzenith Posts: 4,599 Arc User
    edited August 2020
    Edited as the person I was responding to has apparently been banned
    Post edited by themightyzenith on
    zrdRBy8.png
    Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
  • jonesing4
    jonesing4 Posts: 794 Arc User
    Sadly your efforts failed because I don't need chat to be good at what I do.​​

    You are a really good CO player. As a human, you're a bum, but you're really good at this game.
  • jonesing4
    jonesing4 Posts: 794 Arc User
    Somebody help me understand the vehicle changes. Who exactly were they meant to benefit?

    - People who invested in vehicles are obviously getting shafted. It's not really a classic bait-and-switch, because they let you play with the bait for years, but it's ruining/ending something that people spent significant time/effort/money on. They're the worst off out of any group, probably.

    - Veterans who used basic vehicle setups are losing quite a bit. I'm in this boat. A decently kitted-out vehicle with grav pulse and incendiary rounds was wonderful for clearing missions in leveling. Since you guys have refused to add any additional leveling areas for the last 10 years, I've been doing the same thing, every single time, with every new character. Being able to use a vehicle for fast kills, then turning in a bunch of missions at once, made it slightly less painful. That's much harder now since vehicle weapons are unanimously garbage. Maybe there's the silver lining of when you capped my character slots in defiance of the pretense I bought a LTS under (new slot for every 40). Now I only have several characters left to level, so it's not AS big of a deal if it's a tedious slog again.

    - The company who (presumably) wants to make money off of this game hasn't been done any favors. Nobody is ever going to buy a vehicle again, and every round of you taking a dump on our goodwill drives a couple more players away from the dozens who are still around, and convinces a couple more to not ever spend money again.

    - People who want vehicles as vanity devices may benefit some in the short term (since people will likely be selling off useless vehicles for whatever they can get, but this won't last long since you've made most vehicles BoE. As a side note, these changes make it even more hilarious than ever that you've been so stingy with vehicle acquisition over the last year or so. Guard those worthless piles of crap carefully, or the players will run wild!

    - Those who simply like playing the game neither benefit nor really suffer. I've played for 10 years. Now it's almost exclusively a costume creator, but for many of those years I played multiple hours daily, across every kind of content we have in the game. I have never, ever, ever, not one single time, had my gameplay enjoyment negatively effected by someone with a vehicle that was too powerful. Not once, in probably thousands of hours of playing. Yet you took time to nerf them. Terrific attention to balance. So I'll be expecting passes on Earth, Wind, Archery, and all of the other laughably stinky powersets any day, since we need balance to enjoy the game. Can't wait!

    So, again, help me out: who was this for?
  • pantagruel01
    pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    jonesing4 wrote: »
    A decently kitted-out vehicle with grav pulse and incendiary rounds was wonderful for clearing missions in leveling.
    There is a plausible argument for "You should actually play the character you're leveling up".
  • ealford1985
    ealford1985 Posts: 3,582 Arc User
    edited July 2020
    @pantagruel01 they are playing their character.

    So that’s not an argument at all.
    Post edited by ealford1985 on
  • jonesing4
    jonesing4 Posts: 794 Arc User

    I don't entirely disagree. But actually playing through the same leveling content, with any build, quit being fun after like the 10th, 20th time. At a certain point you just wanna get it done as quickly as possible so you can have a new fully-realized lvl. 40 to play with.