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Release Notes 6/18/2020

kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,708 Cryptic Developer
edited June 2020 in Release Notes
Therakiel's Temple
  • Fixed an issue where the Doomsday Clock perk was failing in certain circumstances.
  • Fixed an issue where the lair completion perks were not showing their count progress.



Valerian Scarlet
  • Added a short delay to Valerian's mob summons to allow for their spawn fx to finish before they can attack.


Black Fang
  • Fixed an issue where he was not using his lunge as often as he should.
  • Fixed an issue where he would interrupt key abilities when using his stomp attack.
  • Fixed an issue where he was only summoning one type of enemy.


Baron Cimetiere
  • Fixed an issue where his cursed ground was only being applied to the main target.
  • Gave Baron different charge animations for his different shields.


Vladic Dracul
  • Fixed an issue where his Shadow Eruption ability had a shorter range than intended.
  • Fixed an issue where Vladic would sometimes not properly reset his position.
  • Removed name callout on his Cage abilities as it often called the wrong target.


Therakiel
  • Minor adjustment to divine light fx to make it easier to see.
  • Therakiel's Bleak Glory ability now has different requirements depending on if he is Light or Dark empowered.
  • Fixed an issue where some players would not get ported to the correct location upon completing the lair.




Alerts
  • The Valerian Scarlet alert has been extended until next Tuesday.




Dogz Group
  • Fixed a bug where some Dogz abilities had a range of 5ft.
  • Gave Ulfhednars and Berserkers a new ability that can stack up damage buffs on nearby allies.
  • Increased the charge time on Ulfhednars and Berserkers lunge.
  • Gave Berserkers a new charged ability that can stun players.
  • Gave Berserkers a chain lash combo that knocks players towards them on the last hit if they are not blocking.
  • Gave Ulfhednars a charged lariat ability that knocks players towards them on the last hit if they are not blocking.
  • Gave Ulfhednars a charged short range cone ability that can knock down players.




Misc
  • Fixed an issue where Valerian Scarlet's glow tights for legs did not glow.
​​
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Comments

  • poptartmaniac#8493 poptartmaniac Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    I'm all for the fixes, and the baron block charge is nice, thank you.

    but that dogz buff, is completely unnecessary.
  • rathymosxrathymosx Posts: 4 Arc User
    I'm all for the fixes, and the baron block charge is nice, thank you.

    but that dogz buff, is completely unnecessary.

    This. Also, nothing in the patch notes about the hellementals detonating early unless it was that vague crap about the aura changes.

    Not a fan. People have mentioned several things in need of fixing yet none of those are touched. Instead, you made even more things unnecessarily difficult and overtuned all because a select few said it was too easy.

    This isn't "for the players" at all. If you're only going to listen to a bunch of spoiled brats that don't want to share the "new" content, do us all a favor and pull the plug.
    But why.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 733 Arc User
    The [email protected] seconds remaining is a bug, it'll be fixed next week. Everything else seems mostly perfect. Black fang still has a lil bit of wonky going on when he jumps. The animation sometimes bugs out briefly.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • I'm sorry but this whole thing is upsetting I was the first defending a lair more difficult than TA but at this point, it's just too much for little reward.

    I won't name the names, but please don't buff content just because x or y person said it was too easy.

    specially if you don't test properly. and I mean test with a legit team setup and taking down the bosses the normal way. because things on paper may look nice but in reality they may not be.

    I of course mean 0 disrespect to anyone or the devs. I'm just a concerned endgame player.
  • eddarkflameeddarkflame Posts: 10 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    I don't normally partake on the forums unless I'm really interested in something. Along with a few other endgame, hardcore players, I was another one to give this lair a test in the PTS on a few occasions and helped formulate feedback for the improvement of it.

    Up until the last update everything within the dungeon was appealing, had a challenging difficulty associated to it, and even though there were details to tweak here and there, it was for the most part very enjoyable, challenging and rewarding. The mechanics of the bosses were very interesting and they require actual coordination and thinking at the moment of engaging them.

    This is no longer the case. In a very general sense, the instance was severely over-tuned, and added fake difficulty in the form of a completely unnecessary buffing of adds, which were already a nuisance more than a challenge. The only boss that actually felt like a real boss was Therakiel himself after phase 1.

    The other bosses merely didn't feel as threatening as the adds that pour in on waves, making the adds be focus of the encounter, more noticeably for Black Fang's gang, instead of the boss. Tossing adds into the boss and buffing them makes the encounter more about defeating the waves and less about defeating the boss itself, which make the encounter more tedious and unfun, more than it makes it challenging. The adds shouldn't be the focus of the encounters, bosses should. If adds should be there for the encounter, make it so that they support the mechanics of the boss, not the other way around. Valerian's Sigils are prime examples of it.

    It is currently no longer enjoyable. Far from it. And the reward, unless it was modified to be even slightly higher than what it dropped before the update, is completely disproportionate and not worth the effort.
    Post edited by eddarkflame on
  • rothilionrothilion Posts: 9 Arc User
    Just a PSA to people having fits about TT being 'too hard' for them. This revamp isnt made for you then. This is made for people who find cosmics too easy, who have nothing to do in the game other than sit in rencen. You guys are the people who spends HOURS on kiga, who should take at most 20 minutes. Stop being so entitled to think that the content has to be based off your skills.
  • echokoumoriechokoumori Posts: 31 Arc User
    I don't normally partake on the forums unless I'm really interested in something. Along with a few other endgame, hardcore players, I was another one to give this lair a test in the PTS on a few occasions and helped formulate feedback for the improvement of it.

    Up until the last update everything within the dungeon was appealing, had a challenging difficulty associated to it, and even though there were details to tweak here and there, it was for the most part very enjoyable and rewarding.

    This is no longer the case. In a very general sense, the instance was severely over-tuned, and added fake difficulty in the form of a completely unnecessary buffing of adds, which were already a challenge to manage. It is no longer enjoyable. Far from it. And the reward, unless it was modified to be even slightly higher than what it dropped before the update, is completely disproportionate and not worth the effort.

    i feel just about the same with this, the Dungeon felt fine Yesterday up until some of the Mob buff changes happened. If some more changes were to happen to make it more enjoyable id get more people around to enjoy what Champions online has to offer.
  • kurskikurski Posts: 25 Arc User
    Im gonna say what people wont how do you make a lair this hard and buff the mobs you crippled powers and buff npc's this makes no sense. Not just that but how you think AT's can do this lair even a full group of them will never beat it so why make it so hard. I just dont get it at all maybe one of you genius pro players can answer this. How will this make people even wanna try this game if everything is getting over buffed or nerfed to hell?
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    rothilion wrote: »
    Just a PSA to people having fits about TT being 'too hard' for them. This revamp isnt made for you then. This is made for people who find cosmics too easy, who have nothing to do in the game other than sit in rencen. You guys are the people who spends HOURS on kiga, who should take at most 20 minutes. Stop being so entitled to think that the content has to be based off your skills.

    More elitist BS. It's supposed to be completable in blue primaries and R5s. It's pretty obviously not. Especially not by (at least 95% of) ATs.

    Also, since it *stole* TT that pretty much everyone could do before from us, it should be doable by pretty much everyone. Fake difficulty in the form of number gating is bad design, and new TT is full of it.

    Seriously, take the alert mechanics, make that TT. Put an 'elite' version in for people who want the challenge. (It should have the same rewards - if they really just want the challenge, they shouldn't care about the rewards).

    (And i've been told by one person that if i don't have a PA dps toon (presumably FF) in endgame gear, i shouldn't bother to play a DPS role in TT. The second biggest problems with 'hardcore' lairs is the players become elitists who will only play with people who have optimal builds).
  • leuchadegoutiereleuchadegoutiere Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    It's supposed to be completable in blue primaries and R5s

    In what dream ? It was stated to be a challenging, endgame revamp. Merc and r5 don't fit that definition.

    You feel completly mistaken about the purpose of this new TT.

    The alert version of the bosses is aimed at more casual audience. And I feel that's good. It allows people to enjoy TT content without the difficulty, and even to train them for the real challenge and make them learn the mechanics. So far, the alerts are exactly the same as the lair : same map, same cutscene, just cut down in alerts.

    You have the same, easier content, but not all at once. Is this really a problem, that it's not all at once ?

    @Leucha - Cascade, Praise, Gluh, Sanglots, Chernozem, Saadhaka, Ralsershei, La Lice, Cardinale and so on
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    It's supposed to be completable in blue primaries and R5s

    In what dream ? It was stated to be a challenging, endgame revamp. Merc and r5 don't fit that definition.

    Try here:
    Both @spinnytop and I have proven time and time again that any content (again barring Eidolon) could be done with r5 mods. Cosmics, TA, QWZ, event bosses, you name it. @spinnytop even went the extra mile and posted a comparison chart on how much gains you'd have from going from r5 to r7, and from going from Silver Heroics to Justice/Distinguished/Virtuous.

    Then you have @qawsada . Last year when the lockboxes introduced green and blue gear, qaw tested if they were viable for doing Cosmics and TA and (barring tanking due to the nature of how aggro works in this game) they turned out to be viable.
    ​​

    Or here:
    It's not that I don't think I'll be able to complete it, it's that I'm not going to have much fun doing it. A game is supposed to be fun, not a chore. And I don't enjoy being that elitist prick who'll only play with sufficiently leet players.

    Cool, then don't be \o/ Invite your friends or randos along to teach them how to run TT. Learn, teach, communicate, grow. You know that stuff that's part of MMOs.

    (Yep, you can totally invite whomever and learn how to run TT. No, wait, you can't, because most people don't have GCR gear and R7+s).

    Or here:
    Soooo...25? Which is the minimum number of mods required for a r5, a mod rank that is completely viable for running any content bar the removed Eidolon?

    (I'm pretty sure someone also said that the devs had said that Mercs + R5s was going to be the target, but I can't find the quote at the moment.)

    Also, why are we pretending that number-gating stuff is 'difficulty'. It's not. If the mechanics are challenging, that's fine. Not complaining about the mechanics of the fights (except perhaps Val's tendency to fly in the air where melee can't even hit her). The mechanics being challenging have *literally nothing to do with the number gating*. And the difference between blue primaries and R5s vs. GCR gear and R7s is literally just numbers. GCR gear + R7s doesn't make you play better.
    You feel completly mistaken about the purpose of this new TT.

    The alert version of the bosses is aimed at more casual audience. And I feel that's good. It allows people to enjoy TT content without the difficulty, and even to train them for the real challenge and make them learn the mechanics. So far, the alerts are exactly the same as the lair : same map, same cutscene, just cut down in alerts.

    It's the end of a major story arc. You seem to be confused about what the purpose of story arcs are. The purpose of any TT rework needs to be dictated by that fact.

    If the purpose of TT isn't ending the VB story arc, then the new purpose is stupid. (And if the old TT couldn't be maintained, they should have provided a regular version first, then released an 'epic' version of it, if necessary. Taking content away and redesigning for ~20 players is dumb). And they literally could just make a TT with the alert versions of boss fights substituted for the current ones - virtually no extra work!
    You have the same, easier content, but not all at once. Is this really a problem, that it's not all at once ?

    Yes. Playing it as a lair is a lot different than playing it as a series of alerts spread out over more than a month, especially as a matter of *storytelling*. Why couldn't the hardcore version be the alerts, and the rest of us could just go and enjoy the lair?

    You seem to have mistaken this game as a game primarily about challenge. It's not and never was. It's a game about *player creativity* first (FF power choice, costume design, etc...), and storytelling second. Challenge is a much lower priority than either of those in the game's DNA, and making content that intentionally wrecks those two things is bad design *for this game*.
  • jenniferloganjenniferlogan Posts: 44 Arc User
    Regarding the difficulty, I find it refreshing. And that is despite significant frustration; I've yet to finish the lair on any team I've run with. Sometimes we get stuck on Valerian, sometimes on the Baron. Black Fang we've usually gotten past after a few tries, although we haven't been at him yet after the Dogz buffs. And being stubborn we usually spend several hours before giving up for the day.

    But... For the first time in a long while the SG is active to the point where we can regularly pull a team together for a lair (admittedly this is relatively easy with new content). We are forced to do team work to a much larger extent. We're changing our builds to try and function better together. In short, we are having fun, despite the complaining in team chat after the 10th wipe.

    I truly doubt this would have happened if we had blown through the lair on the third try with little need to adapt. At that point it would just become a grind to get the drops we want, and then not running out again.

    So I hope this lair will be kept difficult. Very little other content is and if there's no challenge people do lose interest eventually.

    A few things though; is it possible to get the Therakiel scripture lore perk now?

    And does anyone know what layer the Brilliance mod adds resistance in? I haven't been able to check on PTS yet.
  • stairs0stairs0 Posts: 71 Arc User
    I am all for challenging content, but fake difficulty in the form of difficult content I cannot complete in green gear with rank 1 mods i unacceptable. "Be the hero you want to be"... more like be the hero we want you to be amiright? Vibora bay is supposed to be lvl35-lvl40 lvlin area but unless u lvl 40 u cant find team to do therkile. Please give us option for easy difuclty for us soloers who dnt liek talk to pepeols for team.

    Ty in advance like the new lair
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rothilionrothilion Posts: 9 Arc User
    rothilion wrote: »
    Just a PSA to people having fits about TT being 'too hard' for them. This revamp isnt made for you then. This is made for people who find cosmics too easy, who have nothing to do in the game other than sit in rencen. You guys are the people who spends HOURS on kiga, who should take at most 20 minutes. Stop being so entitled to think that the content has to be based off your skills.

    More elitist BS. It's supposed to be completable in blue primaries and R5s. It's pretty obviously not. Especially not by (at least 95% of) ATs.

    Also, since it *stole* TT that pretty much everyone could do before from us, it should be doable by pretty much everyone. Fake difficulty in the form of number gating is bad design, and new TT is full of it.

    Seriously, take the alert mechanics, make that TT. Put an 'elite' version in for people who want the challenge. (It should have the same rewards - if they really just want the challenge, they shouldn't care about the rewards).

    (And i've been told by one person that if i don't have a PA dps toon (presumably FF) in endgame gear, i shouldn't bother to play a DPS role in TT. The second biggest problems with 'hardcore' lairs is the players become elitists who will only play with people who have optimal builds).

    Im sorry what? Did I not say to stop being so entitled to think this content is built around your skills/brain width?
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 733 Arc User
    I've managed to complete it on nearly all of my characters now. The only exception being my CCer, since you can't really OT-CC inside there. So it's very possible to do it on just about any DPS that's setup in a decent fashion, and has some decent gear. But you need to be very on point, and balance your weight w/your other DPS for the sigils. Other than that, you should be fine.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 733 Arc User
    edited June 2020

    You seem to have mistaken this game as a game primarily about challenge. It's not and never was. It's a game about *player creativity* first (FF power choice, costume design, etc...), and storytelling second. Challenge is a much lower priority than either of those in the game's DNA, and making content that intentionally wrecks those two things is bad design *for this game*.

    This is changing slowly, and I think the whole thing is going to be this way soon. Imagine when you go into Kevin Poe mission, and get absolutely annihilated w/o 5 people that know what they're doing.

    [NbK]XStorm
  • panthrax77panthrax77 Posts: 270 Arc User
    The dogz have always been the runts of Vibora. I see no problem in giving them some actual teeth, although the mobs in the Black Fang fight (in the lair) will be a lot harder to deal with now, probably harder than the boss himself.

    Personally I like having the extra difficult content. I think it manages to keep the end-game fresh. However, rather than relying on raids and difficult lairs, it would be nice to get some more upgraded middle-of-the-road content, like certain alerts. Stuff that doesn't require a fully kitted character but still has engaging mechanics like Rampage Gravitar and Cybermind, two fights that are still some of the most fun imo. More content like that would be perfect and I think that would make a lot of people who aren't hardcore into endgame content a lot more keen on sticking around.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,060 Arc User
    Black Fang decided to turn invisible after jumping for around 15s on me last night, which was a problem since I was tanking. Other than that things seemed to work.
  • poptartmaniac#8493 poptartmaniac Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    rothilion wrote: »
    Just a PSA to people having fits about TT being 'too hard' for them. This revamp isnt made for you then. This is made for people who find cosmics too easy, who have nothing to do in the game other than sit in rencen. You guys are the people who spends HOURS on kiga, who should take at most 20 minutes. Stop being so entitled to think that the content has to be based off your skills.

    Uh guess what? These complaints are coming from the players you mentioned in this category, cosmics are indeed boring and too easy for us veteran players, so is TA. and before Eido was removed, I succesfully played every role in it, and I know some of the other people voicing their opinion have too


    But yeah I guess we have no right to complain, or voice our opinions *shrug*



    Like I said on other threads, I love this lair, I love that it's harder than all the content we've got before but I feel like some things are unnecessary, this dogs buff for example. The lair is starting to feel like too much work for little reward. I'd say it was in a good place already. And it still is for the most part. Calm down. Let us voice ourselves without jumping in to attack.


    As for the gear argument it's definitely do-able in most roles with mercenary and rank 5 mods if you have a lot of experience in the game and the right builds, but I feel like healer has more pressure through the whole thing so it might be a bit more demanding for them.


    Edit: again before this is misread. I'd like to point out that I am arguing for me and some friends who are experienced veteran players as well as a couple people who commented here. not squirrelloid or some of the others commenting here. So please don't loop me in with that group.

    Post edited by poptartmaniac#8493 on
  • leuchadegoutiereleuchadegoutiere Posts: 123 Arc User
    Too late. You're now a casual player.
    @Leucha - Cascade, Praise, Gluh, Sanglots, Chernozem, Saadhaka, Ralsershei, La Lice, Cardinale and so on
  • Too late. You're now a casual player.
    Dang, that's lethal
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,060 Arc User
    The first time I ran revised TT I barely noticed the Dogz buff, I was running an updated offtank build and I'd added more durability to my build than the dogz had been upgraded. Second time through was more exciting, but it's hardly impossible.
  • gameongameon Posts: 55 Arc User
    Filthy casuals wanting fun content!
    Grind! Grind! GRIIIIND! IF you can defeat the mission.

    Shame the old version had to be replaced, can't just add an elite option, can we? Damn shame if everyone was happy.
  • rothilionrothilion Posts: 9 Arc User
    gameon wrote: »
    Filthy casuals wanting fun content!
    Grind! Grind! GRIIIIND! IF you can defeat the mission.

    Shame the old version had to be replaced, can't just add an elite option, can we? Damn shame if everyone was happy.

    Yes because the 'old version' that an average of 2 teams played per year was a ton of fun I betcha!
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,060 Arc User
    rothilion wrote: »
    Yes because the 'old version' that an average of 2 teams played per year was a ton of fun I betcha!
    People did farm it for Therakiel's Sword or run it on rare occasions for the Stolen Kisses perk (which it might be worth checking whether still works), but it required running a long and pretty annoying quest chain to unlock so I doubt the average player ran it at all. It may be harder to execute now, but it's a lot easier to reach.
  • blazeingdragoonblazeingdragoon Posts: 63 Arc User
    edited June 2020

    rothilion wrote: »
    gameon wrote: »
    Filthy casuals wanting fun content!
    Grind! Grind! GRIIIIND! IF you can defeat the mission.

    Shame the old version had to be replaced, can't just add an elite option, can we? Damn shame if everyone was happy.

    Yes because the 'old version' that an average of 2 teams played per year was a ton of fun I betcha!

    oh. i would of run old therakial's lair religiously if therakial's heavy sword was ACTUALLY in the dang lair before the dang "EPIC" therakial's lair remake. but noooo. cryptic had to have a nice shiny reward for their cursed costume contests.
    Post edited by blazeingdragoon on
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,060 Arc User
    rothilion wrote: »
    Yes because the 'old version' that an average of 2 teams played per year was a ton of fun I betcha!
    People did farm it for Therakiel's Sword

    I mean, allow me to remind you that for the better part of half a year I offered above 50k G + Incendiary Round 3 (which can no longer be acquired in game) for Therakiel Sword + I even offered to open up Vladic's portal for whoever wanted to farm it, and only like the same 2-3 people ended up doing it.

    Nobody ran Therakiel Temple. All these people claiming that they ruined the story arc that they ran all the time are lieing.​​
    No, small numbers did, I saw an average of about one T-sword per year available for sale, and I know mad completionists who went in there to gather all the lore. It was not, however, done regularly, and the people who did do it are people who have no problem with the updated version.
  • poptartmaniac#8493 poptartmaniac Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    As a side note. Kinda hoping all those sg's mentioned help out people willing to try out the new TT. Obviously I'd ask them to first have a bit of experience with other stuff like TA and cosmics as I wouldn't want them to suffer but yeah.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,704 Arc User
    I did old TT a few times, but the sword was stupid looking and I had no interest in trying to farm it and the other rewards weren't worth the time involved.
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • vonqballvonqball Posts: 853 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    I ran the old TT quite a bit.. was trying to get those Baron feather shoulders. I like the new setup much more. The fights are more interesting, not so much filler, better rewards etc.

    I do think it's a smidge overtuned though, and the dogz buff was in no way needed. But, I think that good players should be able to adapt and overcome by refining builds and tactics. Not everyone is a "good player" though. As a middle-tier player who is struggling w the dungeon, I have to think that many people will never be able to complete this irrespective of builds and gear... which kinda sucks.

    Just ran a TA yesterday and, I gotta say, the difficulty jump between TA and TT is pretty huge.

    To all you "Elite" self-satisfied types running your mouths and puffing up your lil egotistical chesties... thanks for being you. That kinda comedy never gets old.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    Too late. You're now a casual player.

    Wait how is that an insult..?
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • xcelsior41xcelsior41 Posts: 1,056 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    rothilion wrote: »
    gameon wrote: »
    Filthy casuals wanting fun content!
    Grind! Grind! GRIIIIND! IF you can defeat the mission.

    Shame the old version had to be replaced, can't just add an elite option, can we? Damn shame if everyone was happy.

    Yes because the 'old version' that an average of 2 teams played per year was a ton of fun I betcha!

    Bruh this community is so small besides alerts/cosmics everything is two teams per year. :lol: Chill, that's not really a great point to make. I wanna give this new "challenging" lair a run through, though. On one hand, it's not a 'gear-gate'. This game can be "won" with literally NO gear on. On the other, being "elitist" about completing this lair doesn't impress me. Wow, good job you completed a new lair. Yeah it's gonna be tough to the general populace because it's NEW. You're not in-fact better, its just like I said, the lair is new, give it a few months, you'll be just as average as you probably are again.
    Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.

    42 40s, LTSer.
  • poptartmaniac#8493 poptartmaniac Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    xcelsior41 wrote: »
    Too late. You're now a casual player.

    Wait how is that an insult..?

    It's not, that's the point. Some people love to jump at you and call you trash or a "casual player" if you so much as disagree with any changes in the game, even if minor ones.

    In this case I'm pretty sure leucha was being sarcastic haha.
  • heartstringsk3heartstringsk3 Posts: 132 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    I'm not gonna get involved in the whole "elites vs. casual" thing. I suck at this game and don't have great builds and I'm happy with Heroic gear and I'm fine with that. I accept that there's content that's just out of my league and not meant for me. But could we please have the ability to like... maybe buy 1 Gold Champion Recognition for 5 or 10 Silver Champion Recognition? I wouldn't care if GCR just bought gear, like I said, I already am fine with not having top gear and being unable to do endgame stuff, but the problem is the GCR store has actual neat powers and a few costume pieces locked behind it that the entire community should be able to get, even if it takes much longer.
  • I'm not gonna get involved in the whole "elites vs. casual" thing. I suck at this game and don't have great builds and I'm happy with Heroic gear and I'm fine with that. I accept that there's content that's just out of my league and not meant for me. But could we please have the ability to like... maybe buy 1 Gold Champion Recognition for 5 or 10 Silver Champion Recognition? I wouldn't care if GCR just bought gear, like I said, I already am fine with not having top gear and being unable to do endgame stuff, but the problem is the GCR store has actual neat powers and a few costume pieces locked behind it that the entire community should be able to get, even if it takes much longer.

    I think this is a pretty nice idea.

  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,704 Arc User
    Has the TT revamp been advertised anywhere other than on Arc? I searched and couldn't find anything. I ask because I can think of a handful of people who have disappeared of late who I'm sure would want to try it out. I.e. recent losses that might be tempted to come back. Are the devs hoping that word of mouth is going to happen? No money in the budget for promotion? Just seems odd that there is no publicity for it anywhere that I can find.
    JwLmWoa.png
    Perseus, Captain Arcane, Tectonic Knight, Pankration, Siberiad, Sekhmet, Black Seraph, Clockwork
    Project Attalus: Saving the world so you don't have to!
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User

    Cool, then don't be \o/ Invite your friends or randos along to teach them how to run TT. Learn, teach, communicate, grow. You know that stuff that's part of MMOs.

    (Yep, you can totally invite whomever and learn how to run TT. No, wait, you can't, because most people don't have GCR gear and R7+s).

    Wait you can't? Does the lair door check your gear rank and block the entrance if you don't have DUC + R9? Wow, didn't realise we had gear matchmaking in this game now.

    Have you tried to run it in blue primaries and R5s?

    And really, your comment wasn't limited to gear. It was that pretty much anyone could run it so long as you taught them how (ie, learned the mechanics). Which clearly isn't true, there are builds that will never run it. Heck, most ATs probably aren't capable even with endgame gear.

    I await documented proof that a full team of ATs (without any of the ones that don't have capped damage yet) in blue gear with R5s can successfully complete TT. I remain exceedingly doubtful.
    Soooo...25? Which is the minimum number of mods required for a r5, a mod rank that is completely viable for running any content bar the removed Eidolon?

    (I'm pretty sure someone also said that the devs had said that Mercs + R5s was going to be the target, but I can't find the quote at the moment.)

    Also, why are we pretending that number-gating stuff is 'difficulty'. It's not. If the mechanics are challenging, that's fine. Not complaining about the mechanics of the fights (except perhaps Val's tendency to fly in the air where melee can't even hit her). The mechanics being challenging have *literally nothing to do with the number gating*. And the difference between blue primaries and R5s vs. GCR gear and R7s is literally just numbers. GCR gear + R7s doesn't make you play better.

    See, I'm confused. First you say that the content requires endgame gear, but then you agree with me that endgame gear and r7 doesn't make you a better player.

    It is both the case that endgame gear doesn't make you a better player, and that TT basically requires it anyway. These are the essential elements in a claim that it's only fake difficulty. (To whit, the things necessary to success have nothing to do with how well you play. Here: endgame gear is necessary for success, and having endgame gear doesn't make you a better player).
    rothilion wrote: »
    Yes because the 'old version' that an average of 2 teams played per year was a ton of fun I betcha!
    People did farm it for Therakiel's Sword

    I mean, allow me to remind you that for the better part of half a year I offered above 50k G + Incendiary Round 3 (which can no longer be acquired in game) for Therakiel Sword + I even offered to open up Vladic's portal for whoever wanted to farm it, and only like the same 2-3 people ended up doing it.

    Nobody ran Therakiel Temple. All these people claiming that they ruined the story arc that they ran all the time are lieing.​​

    I ran TT more than 2x in the weeks leading up to the update, and would have run it more if i could have reliably found a team to do it with. Including taking several players through it for their first time.

    "All the time"? No, impossible to find a team that often. (And you needed at least 4 people to legit get past all the mirror puzzles). But certainly more than you're saying. I don't seem to recall you ever responding to requests for people to join a TT team, either.
  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 733 Arc User
    We've been having a bit of trouble w/uncapped ATs, mostly because they don't have a TW. And it's very, very difficult to make the doomsday clock because of that. There's no way for them to shed the aggro. And really no way to burn them down in time before the boss kills them. Krieg in particular. Especially now that those mobs knock, and stun like crazy. But I wouldn't take them in there anyway, they're gimped, free-trial builds that have 1-2 gaping flaws baked in.
    [NbK]XStorm
  • poptartmaniac#8493 poptartmaniac Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    In all honesty I'm not sure why people say AT's are bad, don't get me wrong, a good few of them are bad. but a lot of them can be very good if done properly, for example, the blade AT, the cybernetic warrior are very good dps (and im sure there's more) The savage, and the master make really good off tanks. etc.

    Just takes some experimenting.

    But as mentioned above, a full AT team is unrealistic unless you're doing it on purpose. Zen can be grinded (even though it takes forever), and they have freeform sales all the time, and they just had a long freeform give away.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,447 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    "New TT is too hard!"
    "What I meant was, TT is too hard if you're not in the best gear with the best mods!"
    "Er, what I meant was, TT is too hard if you don't have a premade!"
    "Uh... TT is too hard if you're playing an archetype!"

    I'm just imagining someone carrying a football goal and frantically running with it while a person holding a football is chasing them, ready to score a point the moment they finally leave the goal in one place. Reminds me of some "X is too hard" arguments that have taken place in the past. The more things change the more they stay the same :)

    So uh... I hear that new TT thing might be exciting. Might pop in to try it. Hope you all haven't farmed it into boring yet o3o
  • squirrelloidsquirrelloid Posts: 868 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    "New TT is too hard!"
    "What I meant was, TT is too hard if you're not in the best gear with the best mods!"

    I think I've been explicit, it's not real difficulty. It's arbitrary number-gating. (And I haven't changed my stance regarding gear at all - best gear + optimized build gets you passed the number-gating.) So there was no move in goalposts here whatsoever.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    "Er, what I meant was, TT is too hard if you don't have a premade!"

    Never said that.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    "Uh... TT is too hard if you're playing an archetype!"

    Because there are archetypes, and therefore that's the standard around which numbers should be calibrated. You can make the *mechanics* of a fight as difficult (ie, real difficulty), but the numbers should be tuned to archetypes (in reasonably available gear).

    Considering you can mess a FF up enough to do worse than an Archetype, and considering the whole point of F2P is to have more people to play with, that isn't exactly an unreasonable standard.

    So no, my goalposts haven't really shifted at all. You'd have to be really uncharitable to conclude otherwise.


    Have you tried to run it in blue primaries and R5s?

    And really, your comment wasn't limited to gear. It was that pretty much anyone could run it so long as you taught them how (ie, learned the mechanics). Which clearly isn't true, there are builds that will never run it. Heck, most ATs probably aren't capable even with endgame gear.

    I await documented proof that a full team of ATs (without any of the ones that don't have capped damage yet) in blue gear with R5s can successfully complete TT. I remain exceedingly doubtful.

    Sorry I don't do those kind of requests anymore o3o It ended up being a waste of my time and resources to get everyone on a lower tiered gear and modded just to prove a point and whenever I ended up doing so people just pop up and say "ah, but you actually took X power on your build and my build can't take X power because it's not theme friendly, call me back when you are able to do X thing while using my build".

    The whole point of insisting on ATs was (1) removing (most) build optimization from the equation, and (2) setting it on a reasonably well-defined build power level. (ie, it intentionally prevents me from being able to say 'doesn't count, you used X power).

    It is both the case that endgame gear doesn't make you a better player, and that TT basically requires it anyway. These are the essential elements in a claim that it's only fake difficulty. (To whit, the things necessary to success have nothing to do with how well you play. Here: endgame gear is necessary for success, and having endgame gear doesn't make you a better player).

    I ran TT 3x yesterday. First run was with 2 completely new players, 2 players that knew what they were doing and myself, who had not run TT on live yet but took the time to read Panta's guide (https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1215031/guide-to-revised-therakiels-temple , elite players always so kind to share guides with everyone o3o) so had an idea of what had to be done. We killed every boss in 1st attempt with 1 death at Val and Black Fang each (the healer was new so it's expected), and 1 last minute death at Baron (me, who got distracted with the adds and forgot to do the simon gimmick in time). Vlad was the first one we got 2 wipes in, 1 because no one was doing stakes, and the other one because he caged tank and the follow up Condemn on a DPS healed him a huge chunk and we failed the enrage timer. Therakiel then took us multiple attempts, mostly because he is currently bugged and one of the Aura Angels ends up blowing up way earlier for 7-8k damage which is enough to kill some glass cannon DPS.

    ...

    ANYWHO. The "GCR DPS threshold" you appear to talk about, aka Val's sigils, was, just as I expected, a non issue, being able to take 1 down myself on my Sentinel Mastery Tank via Devour Essence, a very non meta elite damage skill.

    Maybe the sigils were killing the dps too fast? Maybe you just find really bad teams by advertising in zone? idk, hard to notice what the objective point of failure for the dps is when I'm tanking. But that's not been my experience. Nor am I sure what you mean by 'completely new players'.

    But none of this even addresses the fundamental argument that number-gating is not real difficulty. Would the Val fight really be easier as a matter of actual difficulty if the sigils had 8k or even 1 hp compared to current? I don't think so. The only actual difficulty they introduce is noticing they appear and making it a priority to kill them.

    I ran TT more than 2x in the weeks leading up to the update, and would have run it more if i could have reliably found a team to do it with. Including taking several players through it for their first time.

    "All the time"? No, impossible to find a team that often. (And you needed at least 4 people to legit get past all the mirror puzzles). But certainly more than you're saying. I don't seem to recall you ever responding to requests for people to join a TT team, either.

    See you are just proving my point again o3o You were running it 2x the moment it was announced it was gonna be removed. Pretty much in the same vein as when the old crafting system was announced to be removed people rushed to Monster Island to farm the materials for the craftable TP devices when those areas used to be empty most of the time.

    Also, I did not join any of those teams because till TT revamp hit live, I was playing other games. The TT revamp brought me back. Heck, the TT revamp brought more people back than the quarantine did apparently.

    I didn't just rush to play it because the revamp was coming (although that did make it easier to fill a team) - i'd done it as often as i could get a team since I came back in early May. I also ran it several times last fall before anyone had even heard a whisper of a TT revamp. (I've also run all the other lairs since I came back in early May, although i had to solo Rhinoplasty and got only a single other person for Viper's Nest - but full teams for Mandragalore (2x!), Destroid Factory (at least 2x), Teleios Tower, and Burial Mound. And of course Andrith several times, but that's easy to get a full team). I like the old story content, it's much more fun than grinding alerts or killing cosmics. And TT (old TT) *was* my favorite story content in the game.

    And FWIW, population is not higher because of the TT revamp compared to the lockdowns. There are definitely less people in the game than there were in early May. Population has been dropping consistently for weeks. There wasn't even a noticeable break in that decline due to TT being released. Significant numbers of people did not come back for the TT revamp. If you'd been here in early May, you'd definitely have noticed the much higher numbers that were likely because of quarantine. (It was at least twice current game population).

  • warcanchwarcanch Posts: 878 Arc User
    Therakiel's Temple has long been at the top of my FAVORITE lairs. So, I'm looking forward to the day I can set aside some large chunk of time for my first post-adjustment playthrough.

    However, that isn't any time soon for me. So, yeah, count me "gone for now". I'll be back eventually.​​
    .

    -=-=-=-=-=-(CO in-game handle: @WarCan )-=-=-=-=-=-
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  • poptartmaniac#8493 poptartmaniac Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    Let's pretend for a second, that archetypes are awful and incapable of doing TT.

    Even then there is still a lot, of content, even endgame content that you ***could*** do on an archetype, the game has variety, let it have it. It woudn't be fair to the people who pay, grind or take their time to build a proper freeform, to get content made easy for AT's.

    now back to not pretending, AT's can be really useful, if you know how, which is literally the same case for freeforms, you can butcher them badly. now I will agree a bit of the AT's(mostly support ones) need some changes/upgrades. But I think they are meant to be trials so people can eventually upgrade, I know that kinda sucks, but be happy AT aren't actually bad or useless, and that you can actually grind for a freeform or get giveaways every year and there is FF sales all the time where they become a fair price. case closed.

    --on a side note--

    My only two complaints about TT right now is the dogz mobs in the black fang fight. and the fact that ranged dps can kite away most fights avoiding most of the mechanics in some bosses, while melee are forced to deal with them all.

    Otherwise it seems to be in a good spot.
    Post edited by poptartmaniac#8493 on
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 4,704 Arc User
    I didn't just rush to play it because the revamp was coming (although that did make it easier to fill a team) - i'd done it as often as i could get a team since I came back in early May. I also ran it several times last fall before anyone had even heard a whisper of a TT revamp. (I've also run all the other lairs since I came back in early May, although i had to solo Rhinoplasty and got only a single other person for Viper's Nest - but full teams for Mandragalore (2x!), Destroid Factory (at least 2x), Teleios Tower, and Burial Mound. And of course Andrith several times, but that's easy to get a full team). I like the old story content, it's much more fun than grinding alerts or killing cosmics. And TT (old TT) *was* my favorite story content in the game.

    And FWIW, population is not higher because of the TT revamp compared to the lockdowns. There are definitely less people in the game than there were in early May. Population has been dropping consistently for weeks. There wasn't even a noticeable break in that decline due to TT being released. Significant numbers of people did not come back for the TT revamp. If you'd been here in early May, you'd definitely have noticed the much higher numbers that were likely because of quarantine. (It was at least twice current game population).

    Just yesterday a friend and I did Rhinoplasty with our modestly equipped lvl 35s. Hadn't done it in quite awhile. Took patience and teamwork, but cleared it and had fun. Probably we'll do a few more of the older lairs now.

    One reason why I asked about advertising above is because I am worried about game population. Seems like if one is going to put money into doing a revamp some effort/money should be put in to promoting it in venues other than the game itself.
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  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,060 Arc User
    My only two complaints about TT right now is the dogz mobs in the black fang fight. and the fact that ranged dps can kite away most fights avoiding most of the mechanics in some bosses, while melee are forced to deal with them all.
    The new TT definitely favors ranged dps, though I wouldn't say that you can ignore most mechanics, plenty of stuff still drops on the heads of ranged builds. It also favors builds with strong area damage because there's an enormous number of adds that it's useful to keep thinned out. Preferably spike area damage (things like force cascade builds) so they don't aggro on you before you kill them.
  • poptartmaniac#8493 poptartmaniac Posts: 246 Arc User
    edited June 2020
    My only two complaints about TT right now is the dogz mobs in the black fang fight. and the fact that ranged dps can kite away most fights avoiding most of the mechanics in some bosses, while melee are forced to deal with them all.
    The new TT definitely favors ranged dps, though I wouldn't say that you can ignore most mechanics, plenty of stuff still drops on the heads of ranged builds. It also favors builds with strong area damage because there's an enormous number of adds that it's useful to keep thinned out. Preferably spike area damage (things like force cascade builds) so they don't aggro on you before you kill them.

    Yeah I do agree that it favors AOE builds they help -a lot-, and I feel like melee AOE is underrated we did really well when we had 2 dps with dragon kick, arc of ruin, shockwave, havoc stomp, scything blade, lightweave slash, stuff like that. Still think the dogz are a bit overtuned now though, atleast for that fight. Way too much CC going on, mostly knock spam from the boss and the mobs at the same time making you a ping pong ball.

    As for the other thing. I played a PA build and a munitions build and I atleast felt like I could avoid a lot of the mechanics in the boss fights all together except the instant death stuff like baron block, therakiel empowered, val sigils. That's just my experience/opinion though of course, different perspectives are perfectly fine. And I could be wrong on that front.
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