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lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
So you can make salty memes like this
my-image_1.png?width=931&height=610

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https://tiermaker.com/create/champions-online-power-frameworks-174431

Post your own and discuss \o/​​
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Comments

  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    Agreed with most save Munitions at S tier. But hey, the definition of fun varies from person to person o3o​​
    Guides are gone RIP
  • bringmeaslabbringmeaslab Posts: 162 Arc User
    Sorcery is at the top tier






    of my heart.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,022 Arc User
    lezard21 wrote: »
    Agreed with most save Munitions at S tier. But hey, the definition of fun varies from person to person o3o​​

    I might have to upgrade Might to S-tier after running through QWZ with it tho o3o
  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,360 Arc User
    LNI5hHh.png
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,675 Arc User
    edited September 15
  • brfabeirasbrfabeiras Posts: 151 Arc User
    Why bestial is at top tier? I tried it a few months ago, felt a little bit clunky.
    Maybe I was doing something wrong? Any bestial example builds I could take a look and compare with mine?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,022 Arc User
    edited September 15
    I don't see how someone could call Bestial complete either. There's a reason I haven't made a video dpsoloing qwz with it... well 2 actually, 1 it's a really boring set, and 2 it doesn't have the tools for it. As far as I can tell Bestial being SSS tier is just a meme that isn't really supported by the set's current state. Good for making a bare bones tank or cosmic dpser, no potential beyond that that I can see.

    Also Telepathy is still godlike o3o
  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,360 Arc User
    brfabeiras wrote: »
    Why bestial is at top tier? I tried it a few months ago, felt a little bit clunky.
    Maybe I was doing something wrong? Any bestial example builds I could take a look and compare with mine?

    stupidly high single-target dps with almost no maintenance required to keep up necessary debuffs to maintain full dps. Just massacre and eviscerate to the end of time. High energy cost on Massacre might seem difficult, but really that just allows its dps to be justified as even higher than most other melee charges, because it otherwise has a fuckton of things going for it including its ridiculously fast windup and guaranteed knock. Once you find a source of energy (of which Bestial has no shortage of choices, you got Supernatural Power, Wild Thing, and Relentless) and get that EU generation strong enough to counterbalance Massacre full charges, you are doing meta DPS output at cosmic fights and event bosses which really are the only pieces of challenging content that matter these days.

    AoE dps doesn't really need optimization in 90% of cases, to the point that in most cases just having your T0 combo ranked up properly takes care of most things without issue. It also is highly interchangeable, could just as easily throw SMG or a SB ability on a bestial core build and it would still work. I guess that's a case to make as for why the set's not actually top-tier, but really outside of QWZ there just isn't any content that facilitates requiring an actually high-damage AoE. Also it's not like CO is exactly a game where power choices get cut along discreet lines; A Bestial build for example can be built to use STR with its own powerset choices or with DEX if it leverages toggles in SB.

    If all the powersets in CO were a wheel, Bestial would be the hub, because so much stuff meshes with it and benefits with and off of it. It's got parts that play along with and can benefit off of Single Blade, Munitions, Infernal, Brick sets, and arguably even Darkness or Fire - at least parts of those sets. So it's kind of no wonder it's a meme because if Cryptic's trying to hide the fact they're playing favorites when tweaking powersets they really aren't doing a good job of hiding it.

    But yes if playing purely in the bounds of a single powerset, Bestial's maybe a bit steep in what it can achieve. And frankly I would put MA slightly ahead simply because its energy situation is way easier to design around and it's basically the only powerset setup that can build stacks out of combat entirely. I'm still firmly choosing to believe the meme is real though; Kais was very much an Invuln Bestial tank back when she played.
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,675 Arc User
    edited September 15
    brfabeiras wrote: »
    Why bestial is at top tier? I tried it a few months ago, felt a little bit clunky.
    Maybe I was doing something wrong? Any bestial example builds I could take a look and compare with mine?

    Aside from saying "See Bluhman's post above"...I've recently retconned my Bestial/Regen user and despite being one of the lower geared characters on my roster, she performs very well, despite the way I've built her (i.e. not optimal).

    @spinnytop

    I did say it was a personal opinion, you won't agree because it is not your opinion. But to me, Bestial seems to be 'complete' in the sense that the set can be very self sufficient without much need to "overpick" powers in order to get a rotation in place. Equally there's not that much advantaging that doesn't negatively impact you within Bestial.

    If anything else needed to be added to it...I'd probably say whip like powers for lolz.

    The only issue with the set is the Ultimate, IMO. I feel like its a nice concept but possibly a bit dodgy in implementation. Great aura effect though.

    I am curious though, in your opinion: "Bestial being SSS tier is just a meme that isn't really supported by the set's current state"

    What do you think Bestial would need to justify that status?

  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,022 Arc User
    edited September 16
    Well if we're using "able to dps cosmics" as the benchmark for completeness, all updated sets have a debuff applier, debuff refresher, and spam nuke. Spam nuke, tap debuff refresher occasionally to the end of time. That's a "feature" each set has, so it's hard to make the case that bestial gets special points for having it.
    What do you think Bestial would need to justify that status?

    More control powers like stuns and knocks would be a good start, especially reliable aoe versions. Some more defensive options would definitely help. Basically any hint of utility beyond a single target stun.
    Post edited by spinnytop on
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 10,256 Arc User
    PSwLcwv.jpg

    For real- Bestial is very good still, though in light of the other power revamps I can see why some wouldn't put it at the highest tier atm. As more of a builder than a player, I don't actually have a tier list as much as I just really want Force to be updated so I don't have to cringe every time a newer player asks for a Force build :x
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (older power data) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,022 Arc User
    lezard21 wrote: »
    Agreed with most save Munitions at S tier. But hey, the definition of fun varies from person to person o3o​​

    Sometimes I wonder how much my willingness to use the WASD keys contributes to the things I find fun that other people don't n_n
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    edited September 16
    spinnytop wrote: »
    lezard21 wrote: »
    Agreed with most save Munitions at S tier. But hey, the definition of fun varies from person to person o3o

    Sometimes I wonder how much my willingness to use the WASD keys contributes to the things I find fun that other people don't n_n

    sure, I also use the WASD key when playing munitions...

    then I remember by staying ranged with the ranged DPS set actually lowers my DPS...

    then I also remember that most of the alpha strikes/burst have self root...

    which in turn leads me to remember how starting to charge the set's ultimate but whoops the mob moved outside of my cone better reposition myself...aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnndddddd cooldown...

    and now I'm wondering what was your point with this o3o if it was reminding me how terriballs Munitions is and upsetting me then good job o3o
    Warning: Personal Opinions have been included below

    qK5twsZ.jpg

    wait, how is TK not at least A rank? TK has good DPS and lots of survivability due to Ego Blade Frenzy, not to mention access to both melee and ranged powers that work equally well​​
    Guides are gone RIP
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,552 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I don't see how someone could call Bestial complete either. There's a reason I haven't made a video dpsoloing qwz with it... well 2 actually, 1 it's a really boring set, and 2 it doesn't have the tools for it.
    Sentinel/Manipulator build using venomous breath (r2, infectious bile)?
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,422 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I don't see how someone could call Bestial complete either. There's a reason I haven't made a video dpsoloing qwz with it... well 2 actually, 1 it's a really boring set, and 2 it doesn't have the tools for it.
    Sentinel/Manipulator build using venomous breath (r2, infectious bile)?

    or just a Sentinel build with venomous breath (r2, infectious bile). the amount of tics per target you'd get are more than enough to outheal any of the mobs damage.

    and now you have to factor in Resurgence's health regen, coupled with Regeneration passive itself and anyone saying they can't solo QWZ with a pure bestial build is a really bad owo beans troll​​
    Guides are gone RIP
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,022 Arc User
    edited September 17
    spinnytop wrote: »
    I don't see how someone could call Bestial complete either. There's a reason I haven't made a video dpsoloing qwz with it... well 2 actually, 1 it's a really boring set, and 2 it doesn't have the tools for it.
    Sentinel/Manipulator build using venomous breath (r2, infectious bile)?

    Having to restrict yourself to a given spec setup is not a sign of completeness, it's a sign of a powerset being propped up by a gimmick. Saying a set is complete because it can proc sentinal mastery is like saying a set is complete because you can take an AD and only ever fight when it's not on cooldown. You're saying a set is complete because of some gimmick that comes from outside of it, which means by your metric every set is complete because ADs exist whether that set has one or not. Set completeness comes from the set itself.

    I can't imagine how disappointing it would be to title a video "Beast girl beasts their bestial way through the warzone!" and then show a six minute video of someone Venomous Breathing.
    lezard21 wrote: »
    anyone saying they can't solo QWZ with a pure bestial build is a really bad owo beans troll​​

    Your logical fallacy is...
    StrawMan2.jpg
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,423 Arc User
    flowcyto wrote: »
    PSwLcwv.jpg
    This is the only rating in this thread that's actually valid. Sorry guys.

    Probably unintentional, but I like how the "America" tier is munitions, and it's right by the "bullied in school" tier.
    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 10,256 Arc User
    aesica wrote: »
    flowcyto wrote: »
    PSwLcwv.jpg
    This is the only rating in this thread that's actually valid. Sorry guys.

    Probably unintentional, but I like how the "America" tier is munitions, and it's right by the "bullied in school" tier.
    Unintentional, but prob done subconsciously as I am an American.
    -
    Anyways, one could always try Lacerating Cyclone w/ Vortex adv if you want a wide Bestial AoE w/ CC, and don't mind a chain power. Could then followup on clumped mobs w/ Frenzy and it's Furious adv to get some extra healing that way. Dunno if that'd end up doing well (Sent Mastery is strong, so prob not comparatively), but at least the cleave dmg from Frenzy could be pretty good (and then you're not running around vomiting on people everywhere).
    ________________
    <CO docs> .: Petco :. // Base DPS Sheet (older power data) // PSA on Power Activation Delay // Ayonachan's Gift Horse (misc stat data)
    - Be safe and have fun, champs - for science!
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,022 Arc User
    edited September 17
  • jamesbonnelljamesbonnell Posts: 150 Arc User
    While I'm on a phone, can't do this fancy rating thing, but a few comments.

    1) wasd? It's a PC game, I've used that for navigation for years + mouselook. Did not know maybe that is unusual. But sample of one....

    2). Sure, bestial could do with some other types of powers, but how many people using FF really stay nearly exclusively within one set? I take conviction on most chars, for instance.

    Also, I really want more than one sleep power in the game.

    $.02
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,022 Arc User
    2). Sure, bestial could do with some other types of powers, but how many people using FF really stay nearly exclusively within one set? I take conviction on most chars, for instance.

    Set completeness doesn't have anything to do with what people choose to do, it deals with what they have to do. Specifically, can they get a given mechanic from a given set, or do they have to look in another set for it?

    Now before someone jumps on the assumption train, I'm not saying each powerset needs to have access to all mechanics. Bestial just doesn't seem to have access to enough for it to be considered complete in the way that many other updated sets are complete.
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