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Being Rooted When You Charge/Maintain A Power, Suck
melphyx2
Posts: 177 Arc User
I think all powers should be non-selroot. It would be a good idea. So we can move freely when we are confronted by a situation that we want to escape suddenly, or not to die among other situations. I know that if we stop charging or maintaining powers we can move. But not all players have a mouse with several buttons to handle that. Many use the method of clicking and dragging the powers to use the mouse in other things at the same time. Which is somewhat uncomfortable for many. Even this idea would be genie and more comfortable for PVP (I'm not PVP just in case). They would have better flexibility to enjoy duels.
Spanish version:
Creo que todos los poderes deben ser no selroot. Eso seria una buena idea. Así que podemos movernos libremente cuando nos enfrentamos a una situación de la que queremos escapar repentinamente, o no morir entre otras situaciones. Sé que si dejamos de cargar o mantener poderes podemos movernos. Pero no todos los jugadores tienen un ratón con varios botones para manejar eso. Muchos usan el método de hacer clic y arrastrar los poderes para usar el mouse en otras cosas al mismo tiempo. Lo cual es algo incómodo para muchos. Incluso esta idea sería genial y más cómoda para PVP ( No soy PVP por si acaso ). Tendrían mejor flexibilidad para disfrutar de los duelos.
Post edited by melphyx2 on
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Yeah, that is the reasoning, but the self-root seems to have been applied pretty randomly. Is Annihilate's dps higher than Haymaker's? Does dragon kick have less utility than Brimstone?
Self-rooting melee powers feel especially bad to me. Many trash minions have annoying kiting mechanics.
Also DC's current state isn't a "nowadays" situation, it's a "for many years now" situation.
Also Haymaker should self root. Massacre too. No buff.
And yes, self-rooting is now and will forever be a balancing mechanic that is an excuse to give a power more strength or utility. Everything is on that point chart they have, and nothing is added to a power "just because" without it adjusting something else about that power. Even if self-rooting is added for theme reasons, it still adjust the balance. Cause point chart.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Does Heavy Weapons dish out more damage in comparison to Might in terms of High DPS rotation while staying strict to their respective powersets?
I personally don't feel that Haymaker should get a root because the rest of it's powerset is slow, utilities available only at full charge, and only has Demolish debuff going for it. Whereas, Heavy Weapons has Clinging Flames applicators, No Quarter as a debuff to Fire and Crushing Damage on tap, and Annihilate that also has the advantage that utilizes Clinging flames for increased damage, yet is faster.
EDIT: Forgot I had this page up while I was workin', Comments appear to be answerin' most of the questions.
It sounds more like a PvP advantage...
The only way I'd personally get behind something like this is if maintained or charged powers locked you into fully charging/maintaining them...thankfully most don't, so if you do need to move you can.
Sure, its annoying but if everyone is doing their bit...it shouldn't become an incredible pain.
I do think some charge powers could be sped up a little in terms of charge times but that's subject to power reviews.
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Agreed on that. Ranged, Charge, Energy Cost and Self Root are all mechanics that were intended to reward different styles of gameplay.
However as you know this is currently not the case.
Powers with longer charge should deal more damage than powers with shorter charge. As I mentioned earlier, DC, EBA, BCF, Lumi Slash all deal equal or more damage than Haymaker which has 2x/3x the charge time. And apparently Haymaker is considered to be overperforming ಠ_ಠ
Powers that self root should trade mobility for more damage, re:Skewer's old advantage. Yet again, you have powers from revised sets that can deal above 20k while staying mobile, whereas powers that root you struggle to do so.
Finally Ranged. Range was "deals less damage but you can attack from the safety of way over here" but currently every Cosmic or event boss has 120' feet AoEs meaning you are just as "not safe" as melee are but also you deal 40% less damage than they do. This is even more egregious when you take a look at the Fire revamp which puts you at 50' feet, deals equal or less damage than some 100' feet powersets and 50' feet also happens to be the most common lava pool drop place during Ape.
I know it was not revised but let's take Force Cascade into consideration now. It's a long **** charge. It self roots you. It has high energy cost. It eats energy forms. It deals less damage than any melee powerset and than most mantain ranged 100' powersets.
Originally we were gonna have all powersets revamped and then they would be fine tuned but as we know that is no longer the case from the looks of it. As things stand now you have powers with "balance" restrictions that are being outperformed by a huge margin by powers that are not restricted at all and that's a problem.
Well the problem here could very well be that you are now only looking at self root vs damage potential, and completely shutting out all other possible factors. It'd be like saying "well cars with bigger engines should be faster than cars with smaller engines" which sure, makes sense, but we put a tank turret on the car with a bigger engine.
"powers from revised sets that let you stay mobile" vs "powers that root you" is a bad comparison. Again, I've said it elsewhere and I'll say it here, comparing revised and unrevised powers doesn't work. And no, the fact that power reviews have slowed down doesn't change that, unrevised powers are still unrevised.
Well that's not true. As ranged I've never been shoved into tail range, or bite range. I've never had to worry that I was standing close enough to get hit by frost breath. At Ape while everyone else has to make the panicked run towards ape and pray they don't get lava stacked to death, I just walk backwards while whistling a carefree tune. At Eido I can stay nice and spread out and never have to worry about being in a cluster of geysers. In TA grond I have much less worry about gas pools being close to me, I have less aoes to worry about in Gravitar, in Medusa I have an easier time staying away from brain bot lightning and dont have to worry about getting hit by lance rain, and at the final boss I never have to worry that I'm accidentally standing too close to the other melee and again lance rain.
The life of a ranged dps is carefree and ez breezy. Sure now and then we have to block an aoe just like the melee, but the rest of the time the paragraph above. At Dino we can even choose to only have to block half the aoes the melee does! Fantastic!
It's also an AoE that knocks things into the stratosphere and can one shot entire groups of NPCs. It better not do as much dps as a single target maintain ever cause that'd be stupid OP. Force needs a single target nuke, it currently doesn't have one so there's no actual comparison to be made in that regard.
Also you can remain fully mobile with Force Cascade by tapping it. The majority of self-rooting charges are thus only half in the "self root" category since it is very common that they have no root on the tap.
Hey lezard, you know.. I think you might be on to something. Those powers that haven't been properly updated... I think they might be unbalanced!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Do you have a theory as to why that is?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The devs said HW would get a buff from the Fire review, since CF would then be doing damage close to bleeds. That didn't work out, and balancing HW with that in mind was not a smart thing to do in the first place.
As for PA, I assume the devs think limiting dps by increasing energy cost is a good idea. But that would be a bit naive.
Also this boosts my theory about the HW rework being incomplete.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
About self roots having something to do with PA or HW balance, that depends a bit how you look at it. Obviously there is no direct connection like "higher damage for PA because of not having a selfroot" or "lower damage for HW because of having a selfroot". But while the self root is not a direct reason for HW/PA dps balance, it does make the balance concerns stronger.
Like: "On top of PA doing the highest ranged damage, it's also 1 of 2 sets that have full mobility at 100 feet range... and the other set is famously said to deserve low damage because of the very reasons of mobility and range".
So indirectly self roots does have something to do with HW and PA balance.
However, the balance issue with HW is clearly the fact that the increase to CF damage fell through - had they actually done that HW might in fact be one of the top three performing melee dps sets. I agree that they shouldn't have gone in that direction, or rather if that was the plan then increase CF damage as part of the HW review to make sure it gets done. Seems it was more a case of bad planning, which isn't surprising as during my research into the power reviews you could see that the early ones were a lot less organized and focused than the later ones.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
For that reason, I think they should generally take steps toward making all powers castable while moving and adjust balance and animations as they go. This would give players a unique feeling from the more static, slow-moving MMORPGs.
Of course, also for buisness reasons, this is something to do from the start, rather than something to implement with a game that is in a "just maintain" period of development.
In fact, as has been made aware to me in the past when I showed videos of how I play, not all players groove with the "zip around constantly" playstyle, so balancing everything completely around that would effectively be ignoring those players. Maybe this is one way that CO differentiates itself from other MMOs, but that doesn't mean that that is why every CO player enjoys CO. Some may in fact enjoy the "strike a pose" style of play that self-rooting powers work quite well with, and which very much mimics comic book style combat.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
There are more than 3 attacks in the HW powerset, I promise you.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
And also make it self root.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
A player can slap down an arcane circle, thereby imposing an optional self-root to mitigate high-energy costs. There are also devices and additional powers that provide energy, gear that lowers costs. There is much leeway to play with when it comes to energy costs.
Is there a device that increased 50' range to 100' range? noop. Is there a device that makes a self root power mobile... again nu!
I'm not saying balancing this mess is easy...but sersely, c'mon here people!
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Right, that's why you see so many Haymaker toons topping the Cosmic charts :^) Sounds like you need to learn how to build a proper TK, Unarmed or LS toon pal.
also plz post your parser where you deal 75k to Dino/Kiga/Ape/Eido with Haymaker. No editing. Thxs much. The pvp forum is a-that way
There are actually PvE scenarios where burst is useful. Dino DPS check and Eido orbs being two examples.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Sets are sure set up for a "1 nuke, + other attacks for utility" setup, primarily because most sets only have 1 nuke to begin with. However, the 2015 "1 attack" setup is absolutely not what modern power sets are designed around.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Not for the whole team, but for that individual player the difference is huge. A set/fight shouldn't be balanced around other sets picking up the slack. So again, that is not a good answer.
How is it an issue when you can move instantly after you stop charging or maintaining your powers?
Yah, I get that. I was talking about people who care enough about single-target burst to want haymaker nerfed. Not many players are looking to increase the difficulty of dps checks in open world content.
That is a balance mechanic. Just like some powers have higher range, others a different energy cost, etc. So again, why is it a problem?
I don't agree with all of this, but the point about Geysers is important. Seeing as how if enough people fail that when it comes up, it can extend the time of the fight . . . yeah, being able to MOVE YOUR ARSE quickly is more important for that stage.
I see, that is a bit of an unusual playstyle and I can see how that would cause a problem. For using powers with a selfroot you're probably best of using hotkeys.
Even if every player there is HW it wouldn't matter. Downing Eido quickly during third phase isn't what wins the fight, downing Green Orbs consistently is.
HW isn't balanced around other sets picking up the slack, HW is balanced around added damage that wasn't added. Let's not try to skew reality here. I doubt "other sets will do the damage this one isn't doing" is a mechanic they'll ever actually use. However "lower damage for higher mobility" certainly is. Annihilate should be one of the highest performing melee dps powers, and we can wait for the actual HW revamp to see if that becomes a reality.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Having 4 or 6 green orb spawns at stage 3 can make a big difference. I've seen many runs where things stalled at stage 3 until there were a few lucky spawns that were placed easy enough to get through them.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.