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Publishers now face JAIL TIME over lootboxes!

circleofpsi#4619 circleofpsi Posts: 2,913 Arc User
So, forgive me for the click-bait title, but its official. Apparently the Netherlands and Belgium have made randomised 'Lootbox' mechanics in games illegal. With other countries likely to follow suit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEjADoTRpDw

My fear (and happiness) is wondering what will happen to PWE in terms of their own lockboxs. Cuz they seem to target ANY type of randomised 'Lootbox' mechanics, that makes you use money for in-game items, Cosmetic or not.

So, what do you guys think of this?



And please for the love of holy jesus, keep it civil.


I have a fish, if you don't!




Legion
Psi.
«13

Comments

  • flyingfinnflyingfinn Posts: 8,408 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    In Belgium and Netherland you get a game version where lootboxes don't exist?
    Like in countries they censor *oo*s, you get :o:o .
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 6,022 Arc User
    "Lootboxes are Gambling"
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  • bluhmanbluhman Posts: 2,410 Arc User
    Anyone in the Netherlands/Belgium that play CO are gonna have a bad time, as PWE probably is going to withdraw it from those countries real fast.

    That or they'll just put in a switch that disables players in those regions from receiving lockbox drops or buying cosmic keys.

    Also lest we forget, this is a dilemma that literally every MMO and/or multiplayer game out there today is potentially facing, including several other PWE titles.
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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    Maybe if game companies tried regulating and controlling themselves, this wouldn't have happened. Anyone can read laws defining what is considered gambling and foresee where lootboxes stand. Considering I don't have a problem with casinos existing, I don't see why lootboxes shouldn't exist. However, I absolutely think they should be regulated. It's about time the video game industry be transparent about odds and be held to the same licencing and tax standards that the casino game industry is held to.

    I also don't have a problem with game company execs being fined or going to jail for breaking existing gambling laws or even future laws. I've read the parts of the California gambling regulation that define what gambling is and have no doubt lootboxes fit the definition. The people who keep insisting that lootboxes aren't gambling need to start giving some compelling reasons as to why I shouldn't just write them off as swindlers when the regulations can be read by anyone.

    It's not like game companies didn't exist and weren't profitable before lootboxes flooded every cash shop ever.​​
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  • circleofpsi#4619 circleofpsi Posts: 2,913 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    bluhman wrote: »
    Anyone in the Netherlands/Belgium that play CO are gonna have a bad time, as PWE probably is going to withdraw it from those countries real fast.

    That or they'll just put in a switch that disables players in those regions from receiving lockbox drops or buying cosmic keys.

    Also lest we forget, this is a dilemma that literally every MMO and/or multiplayer game out there today is potentially facing, including several other PWE titles.

    I hope not, cuz I like this game. And if other places follow suit, their own country will ban it.

    If this game goes, I go
    Psi.
  • circleofpsi#4619 circleofpsi Posts: 2,913 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    sterga wrote: »
    Maybe if game companies tried regulating and controlling themselves, this wouldn't have happened. Anyone can read laws defining what is considered gambling and foresee where lootboxes stand. Considering I don't have a problem with casinos existing, I don't see why lootboxes shouldn't exist. However, I absolutely think they should be regulated. It's about time the video game industry be transparent about odds and be held to the same licencing and tax standards that the casino game industry is held to.

    I also don't have a problem with game company execs being fined or going to jail for breaking existing gambling laws or even future laws. I've read the parts of the California gambling regulation that define what gambling is and have no doubt lootboxes fit the definition. The people who keep insisting that lootboxes aren't gambling need to start giving some compelling reasons as to why I shouldn't just write them off as swindlers when the regulations can be read by anyone.

    It's not like game companies didn't exist and weren't profitable before lootboxes flooded every cash shop ever.​​

    I agree alot here and there is a simple way to fix it for CO.

    Just do excaly what Warframe does: Sell Cosmetics for Plat (In this case Zen). Allow all items to be traded. And then for "Lockboxes" can be like "Prime item", where you can only farm it or buy it from a special store for a limited time. (Note: You'll always buy excaly what you want like PA in Warframe).

    But once it goes, the sale for them items go up, adding more people to sell a item to get gold, to get the gold to get the items.


    And the Collectors Store will be the only minor gambling, but you gamble with in-game cash, if you want the very item, right now, you smipley buy it with real money, Warframe still stands with no lockboxs, so can PWE
    Psi.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    bluhman wrote: »
    Anyone in the Netherlands/Belgium that play CO are gonna have a bad time, as PWE probably is going to withdraw it from those countries real fast.
    Yeah, easiest fix for them is region lock (reveal odds, which other areas have required, they may do).
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,387 Arc User
    Well it's about time. I sincerely hope that more countries get on board with this to prevent companies from just blocking those games in the countries that correctly have determined that this is gambling. The sooner we can end this predatory practice the better.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    No, you haven't already paid for a game. You've paid for part of a game. That $60 price tag is only there because of additional content like loot boxes. If they go away, we'll be paying a lot more for games. Or have expensive DLC. Of course game companies need to make money. They're making games for us.

    Not only that, but where's the line they draw? Will they regulate Pokemon card packs now too? Or candy pouches? Anything sold that's randomized will now be at risk of being regulated.

    FFS, this ridiculous law isn't gonna survive.
    sterga wrote: »
    Maybe if game companies tried regulating and controlling themselves, this wouldn't have happened. Anyone can read laws defining what is considered gambling and foresee where lootboxes stand. Considering I don't have a problem with casinos existing, I don't see why lootboxes shouldn't exist. However, I absolutely think they should be regulated. It's about time the video game industry be transparent about odds and be held to the same licencing and tax standards that the casino game industry is held to.

    I also don't have a problem with game company execs being fined or going to jail for breaking existing gambling laws or even future laws. I've read the parts of the California gambling regulation that define what gambling is and have no doubt lootboxes fit the definition. The people who keep insisting that lootboxes aren't gambling need to start giving some compelling reasons as to why I shouldn't just write them off as swindlers when the regulations can be read by anyone.

    It's not like game companies didn't exist and weren't profitable before lootboxes flooded every cash shop ever.​​
    Loot boxes aren't legally defined as gambling though, and are different from casino gambling regardless. Every loot box gives something. It may not be the something you want from them, but it is something. Casino games tend to give a (large) chance of giving nothing in return. This is a very important difference.
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,387 Arc User
    orangeitis wrote: »
    No, you haven't already paid for a game. You've paid for part of a game. That $60 price tag is only there because of additional content like loot boxes. If they go away, we'll be paying a lot more for games. Or have expensive DLC. Of course game companies need to make money. They're making games for us.
    So the companies are the ones choosing to make $60 games, they're the ones deciding to spend millions of dollars in advertising, and they've chosen to make more money by adding DLC. Do you honestly think a game like star wars wouldn't have turned a profit if they hadn't of added loot boxes? No it was greed pure and simple.

    Imagine if car companies only sold $100K luxury cars, because they told you that there just wasn't a market for economy cars, but because making luxury cars was so expensive they can only sell the base model at $100K, if you wanted extra features, like picking the color and stereo system you had to buy random customization packs. Then the company wouldn't even tell you your chances of getting the features you wanted.
    orangeitis wrote: »
    Not only that, but where's the line they draw? Will they regulate Pokemon card packs now too? Or candy pouches? Anything sold that's randomized will now be at risk of being regulated.

    I have zero problems with that. If your business model is to trick kids out of their money then maybe you need to be regulated.
  • orangeitisorangeitis Posts: 227 Arc User
    guyhumual wrote: »
    So the companies are the ones choosing to make $60 games, they're the ones deciding to spend millions of dollars in advertising, and they've chosen to make more money by adding DLC. Do you honestly think a game like star wars wouldn't have turned a profit if they hadn't of added loot boxes? No it was greed pure and simple.
    Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. The games cost a lot more than that $60 price tag allows. The price tag has just remained $60 over the years because that's what we're used to seeing. Not only do $70, $80, and $90 price tags seem too far out of reach for people, or flat out uninticing, but games cost a lot more to make nowadays. Loot boxes make up for this increased cost. Greed is a strong word, one shouldn't just throw it around like you're doing.
    guyhumual wrote: »
    Imagine if car companies only sold $100K luxury cars, because they told you that there just wasn't a market for economy cars, but because making luxury cars was so expensive they can only sell the base model at $100K, if you wanted extra features, like picking the color and stereo system you had to buy random customization packs. Then the company wouldn't even tell you your chances of getting the features you wanted.
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    If it sells, then sure.
    guyhumual wrote: »
    I have zero problems with that. If your business model is to trick kids out of their money then maybe you need to be regulated.
    Maybe you do not, but others, like myself, find it nothing less than absurd to ask for that level of regulation.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    orangeitis wrote: »
    Loot boxes aren't legally defined as gambling though.
    Eh, that depends on the laws in question. Countries can define gambling however they wish, and Belgium and the Netherlands have chosen to define it in a way that includes lootboxes.
  • baelogventurebaelogventure Posts: 520 Arc User
    Lockboxes aren't gambling. Period. You know what you can get in them, and you are 100% guaranteed to get something.

    Gambling requires a risk of money. There is 0 risk,as you are always guaranteed to receive a prize.

    A crane machine could be considered closer to gambling than lootboxes, since you aren't guaranteed to receive a prize if the grabber slips and drops the stuffed animal back into the bin.

    This would be like taking Chuck-E-Cheese to court because little Timmy didn't get enough tickets to buy the Super Soaker for a dollar's worth of tokens.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    Lockboxes aren't gambling. Period. You know what you can get in them, and you are 100% guaranteed to get something.

    Gambling requires a risk of money. There is 0 risk,as you are always guaranteed to receive a prize.
    This is spectacularly untrue. It's perfectly possible to have a guaranteed payout from a game of chance and have it still be considered gambling. All you need is unequal value.
    A crane machine could be considered closer to gambling than lootboxes, since you aren't guaranteed to receive a prize if the grabber slips and drops the stuffed animal back into the bin.
    Pretty sure it falls into the game of skill exception.
  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 927 Arc User
    So it is like those machine that spit out little plastic balls that have a small cheap toy inside if you put a coin in the slot. Those things you see in nearly every supermarket all over the place... you have no idea what prize you are going to get when you put your coin in... should those machines be made illegal as well? Should the people who build them be put in jail?

  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    beezeeze wrote: »
    should those machines be made illegal as well?
    Arguably yes. There are a lot of marginal cases (a classic is probably baseball cards, which led to CCGs) that haven't been targeted because there was no appreciable abuse of them.
  • magpieuk2014magpieuk2014 Posts: 1,268 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Lockboxes aren't gambling. Period. You know what you can get in them, and you are 100% guaranteed to get something.

    Unfortunately there is no player skill involved in the outcome, which makes it arguable that Lootboxes/Lockboxes are a lottery. The UK Gambling Commission thinks that boxes which only sell "in game" items and which have no extractable financial value outside of the game aren't lottery items, but those crazy Dutch disagree.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    So when are they outlawing these?
    324f17ad5ef3dc3c61eda43227026f86.jpg
    sterga wrote: »
    It's not like game companies didn't exist and weren't profitable before lootboxes flooded every cash shop ever.​​

    Some of them might not exist anymore were it not for loot boxes. We can't all save our MMOs by selling bathing suits for loli races.

    If this does come to fruition in CO I look forward to seeing the complaints about loot boxes turn into complaints about how much it costs to buy the things that were formerly in lootboxes ^_^ though I won't be able to see the looks on people's faces when they realize they're actually spending more to get less once the change hits, and that's a shame.
  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,387 Arc User
    Everything in CO is already over priced Spinny. How's that going to change if they have to get rid of lockboxes? Are they going to be even more over priced?
  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 927 Arc User
    guyhumual wrote: »
    Everything in CO is already over priced Spinny. How's that going to change if they have to get rid of lockboxes? Are they going to be even more over priced?

    I believe that was the insinuation.

  • guyhumualguyhumual Posts: 2,387 Arc User
    orangeitis wrote: »
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    If it sells, then sure.
    It's not going to sell, that business model would be absurd, because nobody is going to buy the line that they can only make $100K cars. People accept that AAA publishers have to charge that much because the AAA publishers have a monopoly on the market. They're the ones setting the price, then holding back content to sell it as DLC, or adding lockboxes to games that aren't F2P. The majority of people aren't stupid with their money. The reason lockboxes exist is that a small group of people are vulnerable to the allure of lockboxes. Children for example. It's these folks these lockboxes are used to pray on.
  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    EA opened pandora's box when they decided to lock player progression behind gamble boxes in Battlefront 2. In comparison to CO it's like paying money upfront each time you level to unlock a new power, advantage, talent or specialization. Not only that, you won't be garuanteed getting the power that you want, and you'd have to pay until you did.

    ****ty business practices that exploit consumers to that degree with such audacity has to stop. I got no problems with lootboxes existing in F2P games that don't hinder player progression or lock content, or those that contain purely cosmetic items. But if I'm expected to pay nearly $100 to get the "full" edition of a triple A game, and if I'm expected to pay a significant amount of money for a season pass that doesn't garuantee the content that satisfies my expectations, I certainly won't be happy being expected to throw in additional money for gamble boxes locking further content. Plenty of others share my viewpoint and that's why legislation is starting to get involved. Enough is enough.

    I don't know how CO will ultimately be affected because of this, but I certainly want to see industry giants change their ways and move away from lootboxes that lock content with the sole purpose of milking people's wallets above everything else.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,315 Arc User
    Just looked up the actual news regarding this. There were several "lockboxes" looked at, and exactly four were found to be in violation of Netherlands law; the criterion was a) random prizes and b) that can be traded outside the game, and thus have a cash value.

    Can't find any references to a Belgian decision on this, outside a reddit comment thread, which is somewhat less reliable than reading a story in the Daily Mail.

    So it still looks like the Cryptic boxes are free and clear.
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  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    "Of course game companies need to make money. They're making games for us."

    Nooooooo... They're making games to make money. Anyone can make a game for someone else and not charge anything for it. We are talking about running a business. No one excuses other industries like the video game industry for being garbage at running a business.

    "Not only that, but where's the line they draw? Will they regulate Pokemon card packs now too? Or candy pouches? Anything sold that's randomized will now be at risk of being regulated."

    From Klaus Preisinger: Source
    https://www.gamingcommission.be/opencms/opencms/jhksweb_en/law/law/

    [...]

    -xxx-
    Article 3. The following are not games of chance within the meaning of this Act:
    [...] card games or board or parlour games played outside class I and II gaming establishments and games operated in attraction parks or by industrial fairgrounds

    In California, there are also things like the lotto that are not considered gambling. If you look up laws and regulations, they tend to have A LOT of detail.

    "Every loot box gives something."

    Winning something is not a stipulation for being considered gambling. If it were, the casino gaming industry could simply have all of their slot machines always dole out at least one penny to easily skirt regulations. Every hand of blackjack or poker could dole out a shiny nickle, win or lose, and instantly not be gambling.​​
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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    You know what's a great way for game companies to make money? Make sure that quality is a focus behind the product that you're selling. Players will know how to identify a quality game with quality design elements behind it that make said game enjoyable and worth buying in the first place. A quality game receiving rave recognition through reviews and relevant media will sell and make a lot of money. Deliver that. Don't BS your consumers, because they're smart enough to see through your BS.

    When a game is ****, it's not going to sell well. There are enough examples out there that bombed not because they didn't have a loot box system to generate revenue. They bombed because they were **** in terms of poor design and marketing decisions.

    Costs involved in making the games isn't an excuse to introduce systems solely designed to intentionally lock players out of content with the intention of getting them to repeatedly spend on loot boxes to unlock said content. It isn't an excuse to intentionally slow down or limit a player's progression in the game not for the sake of balance, but just to sell as many loot boxes as possible that speed up progression. Destiny 2 with how the devs intentionally nerfed XP gains to encourage players to spend on loot boxes to speed up progress is a great recent example of this, amongst other bad decisions. Bungie is in a very bad place right now unless they can pull through with something magnificent. Also I don't think I need to bring up the BS EA pulled with Battlefront 2.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    jonsills wrote: »
    Just looked up the actual news regarding this. There were several "lockboxes" looked at, and exactly four were found to be in violation of Netherlands law; the criterion was a) random prizes and b) that can be traded outside the game, and thus have a cash value.

    Can't find any references to a Belgian decision on this, outside a reddit comment thread, which is somewhat less reliable than reading a story in the Daily Mail.

    So it still looks like the Cryptic boxes are free and clear.

    Welp, looks like Jon busted this one. We're done here.
  • circleofpsi#4619 circleofpsi Posts: 2,913 Arc User
    jonsills wrote: »
    Just looked up the actual news regarding this. There were several "lockboxes" looked at, and exactly four were found to be in violation of Netherlands law; the criterion was a) random prizes and b) that can be traded outside the game, and thus have a cash value.

    Can't find any references to a Belgian decision on this, outside a reddit comment thread, which is somewhat less reliable than reading a story in the Daily Mail.

    So it still looks like the Cryptic boxes are free and clear.

    That's good news!, I'll hate to lose this game for something like this, but to be honest, I still bealive that they need to tone down the rarity of lockboxs.

    But I have to ask: How excaly are they in the clear?, cuz your still buying countless keys to try get a certain item you wish.

    For Example: I want Arcane Flight Unlock, but I have to spend say £50 worth of keys, in a "chance" to get it, still sounds like a no-no in some laws. Cuz it's still "Gambling?"

    I do think that should be counter-acted as well, I rather pay up-front for my items (even if they might be pricey, cuz your still paying for EXCALY what you want)


    But yeah, for now, I can still keep my heart safely locked away


    <Slowly hides a weapon>
    Psi.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Eh. Even with loot boxes and somewhat absurd prices for some things CO still gives me the best entertainment value for my money for things that I just do for fun. As long as I continue to have fun I will continue to put money in.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,315 Arc User
    Cry, they're "in the clear" because nothing in those lockboxes can be sold outside the game. There's no easy way to swap real-world cash for, say, the Mystic Flight power, or (from our sister game) a Tier 6 Constitution-class cruiser. (I mean, if you were determined enough, you could try to make someone send you something via PayPal before agreeing to swap items in-game, but it's not exactly baked in, is it? That falls more under the behavior of weird individuals, not the game company; otherwise, you start getting into people who sell rare baseball cards and things like that, and that's just a whole can of worms itself.)

    Meanwhile, Team Fortress 2 has, apparently, a "cosmetic items market" that permits you to sell some of your drops for cash. They're kind of skirting the intent of this law by only doing this for cosmetic items, not items that provide some in-game advantage, but under the letter of the law, they're in violation.
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  • circleofpsi#4619 circleofpsi Posts: 2,913 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    jonsills wrote: »
    Cry, they're "in the clear" because nothing in those lockboxes can be sold outside the game. There's no easy way to swap real-world cash for, say, the Mystic Flight power, or (from our sister game) a Tier 6 Constitution-class cruiser. (I mean, if you were determined enough, you could try to make someone send you something via PayPal before agreeing to swap items in-game, but it's not exactly baked in, is it? That falls more under the behavior of weird individuals, not the game company; otherwise, you start getting into people who sell rare baseball cards and things like that, and that's just a whole can of worms itself.)

    Meanwhile, Team Fortress 2 has, apparently, a "cosmetic items market" that permits you to sell some of your drops for cash. They're kind of skirting the intent of this law by only doing this for cosmetic items, not items that provide some in-game advantage, but under the letter of the law, they're in violation.

    Ok, thanks for clearing that!

    Big weight off my back


    And lol I'm not that determined, I got a close pal who buys my keys off me daily, so we agree to disagree, but yes thank you so much for the help
    Psi.
  • itsbrou#5396 itsbrou Posts: 1,777 Arc User
    Solution: PWE bans Belgium and Netherlands IP ranges.
    B)
    Brou in Cryptic games.
  • jellycupsowbugjellycupsowbug Posts: 358 Arc User
    I misread publisher as "Punisher."
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    Solution: PWE bans Belgium and Netherlands IP ranges.
    B)

    Problem solved \o/
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,510 Arc User
    They should make mod fusion illegal. That's algo gambling.

    Also Rampages. You are also gambling to get a drop.

    Heck, ban all mob drops. Mobs should give you every item in their drop list upon being killed.

    And crits too!

    Ban everything. I'll bring the soap to the prison showers.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Except that none of that necessarily involves real money, while opening loot boxes involves someone at some point spending real money for keys.
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    I could be at a job making money but instead I am in a video game. I am gambling my time trying to get items that may or may not drop. Arrest everyone \o3o/
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Except that none of that necessarily involves real money, while opening loot boxes involves someone at some point spending real money for keys.

    Many jurisdictions check these 3 components to determine whether or not something fits their definition of gambling:
    1. Payment for eligibility: either real-world money or "good or service of monetary value"
    2. Prize: either real-world money or "good or service of monetary value"
    3. Game of chance - skill cannot guarantee or "greatly influence" an outcome

    It would be easy to interpret any of these components so broadly that stock trades, amusement park games, arcade machines, and many other activities that in any way involve money and chance could be classified as illegal. This is due to the "good or service of monetary value" piece. But that would not make sense. Hence, the specific interpretations are largely left to each jurisdiction.

    The only cases where there is no question is when both #1 and #2 are real-world money. That's defined as gambling almost universally.
  • lezard21lezard21 Posts: 1,510 Arc User
    Just ban the internet already. Can we do that?
  • qqqqiiqqqqii Posts: 4 Arc User
    *shrugs* As I have never been a purchaser of lockboxes or keys in any games I play, I will blithely ignore the whole kerfuffle.

    That civil enough? :p
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    Legal documents generally define everything in detail well beyond a five second definition search. But, sure, let's pretend that everything that exists can somehow be interpreted as gambling because who wants to let 100s of pages in law documents get in the way of whatever crazy doomsday scenario we want to fantasize about.​​
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  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    Sterga, what matters isn't whether something is gambling or not, what matters is if that gambling is deceptive or exploitative. Life is full of gambles that involve money: go to watch a movie, you might not like it. Drive to work, you might get hit by some lunatic in a sports car. Buy a cat, it might kill you in your sleep.

    When people point out that lots of things can be considered gambling they're not creating a "doomsday scenario", they're pointing out a simple fact. What I would suggest for you is to not pretend that they are fantasizing about a doomsday scenario... especially when they made no indication of such.
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,315 Arc User
    Spinny, some of the folks posting on the topic in these forums have been positively giddy about the idea of our version of lockboxes being declared illegal. They seem to entertain a fantasy that all the items in the box would somehow simply be provided without monetization, as if that were even possible, and (as the title of this thread alludes) would see developers jailed for having the temerity to use lockboxes.

    And if that's not a game version of a doomsday scenario...
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • jennymachxjennymachx Posts: 3,000 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    I mean, it's not like every time we level and want to make our power choice, we have to do it by purchasing lockboxes to unlock a power, and we can't selectively choose the power we want since they unlock at random.

    If PWE/Cryptic decides to pull that kind of crap like EA wanted to do with Battlefront 2, then start crying bloody murder.
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,424 Arc User
    Almost certainly true, so not a gamble, really.
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Buy a cat, it might kill you in your sleep.

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  • only if you don't feed it​​
    #LegalizeAwoo
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 16,450 Arc User
    edited May 2018
    jonsills wrote: »
    Spinny, some of the folks posting on the topic in these forums have been positively giddy about the idea of our version of lockboxes being declared illegal. They seem to entertain a fantasy that all the items in the box would somehow simply be provided without monetization, as if that were even possible, and (as the title of this thread alludes) would see developers jailed for having the temerity to use lockboxes.

    And if that's not a game version of a doomsday scenario...

    The problem is that those players enjoy the game, and given that, the idea of them wishing doom upon it is ludicrous. This is especially true once you read what they write, upon which it becomes obvious that they believe the game can thrive without lockboxes. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant since we're talking intent. These players aren't giddy about the idea of CO being doomed, they're giddy about lockboxes being doomed. What they are proposing is not a doomsday scenario, but rather a shift in monetization practices.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Sterga, what matters isn't whether something is gambling or not, what matters is if that gambling is deceptive or exploitative.
    Mostly, what matters is whether the gambling appears to be a problem.

    Checking the statement by the Dutch (translation required), one key problem they had with some loot boxes is that the contents can be traded out of game (note that only 4 of 10 inspected were found in violation). This is not the case for CO (or any PW game as far as I know), so it should be in the clear in the Netherlands. The Belgian statement is considerably less clear, so there could be a problem there.
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    The casino gaming industry is expected to follow the law and so should the video game industry when they want to use things that fall under legal definitions of gambling. That is the detailed, lengthy definitions used in actual legal documents not the anemic dictionary.com definition. Trying to claim the stock exchange or general loot tables should fall under casino gambling is stupid.

    Even CCGs are generally not part of the definition of gambling as would be evident by the quote I posted earlier. Maybe I'm wrong, but companies like Wizard are simply selling card packs to people and providing rules. I don't believe they make money from the tournaments like a casino would from blackjack or poker. Even blackjack and poker are not gambling if it's a private game where no one makes money except as a player.

    A huge problem with lootboxes is that they are not regulated which means we have no idea what kind of hinky BS video game companies are pulling. We do know that variable pricing for goods can be done automatically based on a number of factors (Scientific Revenue). Who know how the odds are manipulated to screw people over with lootboxes? We don't because the video game industry has been allowed to ignore the law. The AAA industry especially has spent years destroying their own reputation with lies and unfortunate cannot be trusted to control themselves when it comes to taking advantage of customers.​​
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,315 Arc User
    Sterga, by painting with so broad a brush, you're falling into the same trap as the folk you decry. (Honestly, who can say that they know what affects stock-market prices? If they were so easily predictable, the market would be about as profitable as, say, the grocery store.)

    Again, most countries have specific descriptions of what constitutes "gambling", just as they have statutes describing what constitutes "assault" so that you can't charge someone who touches your shoulder lightly with assault. And the way that lockboxes work in this game - in most games - does not meet the definition of "gambling" in those EU nations where the question has been raised, because there isn't really any way to convert the winnings into currency. (Absent the currency, you might wind up with the sort of absurdist definitions that claim the free games awarded by a pinball machine are "gambling". And yes, that claim has been made as well - almost killed pinball, back in the 1950s.) The problem with those boxes found to be in violation was that the company had set up an exchange where certain dropped items could be traded for cash.
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

    - David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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