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Publishers now face JAIL TIME over lootboxes!
circleofpsi
Posts: 2,961 Arc User
in Off Topic
So, forgive me for the click-bait title, but its official. Apparently the Netherlands and Belgium have made randomised 'Lootbox' mechanics in games illegal. With other countries likely to follow suit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEjADoTRpDw
My fear (and happiness) is wondering what will happen to PWE in terms of their own lockboxs. Cuz they seem to target ANY type of randomised 'Lootbox' mechanics, that makes you use money for in-game items, Cosmetic or not.
So, what do you guys think of this?
And please for the love of holy jesus, keep it civil.
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Legion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEjADoTRpDwMy fear (and happiness) is wondering what will happen to PWE in terms of their own lockboxs. Cuz they seem to target ANY type of randomised 'Lootbox' mechanics, that makes you use money for in-game items, Cosmetic or not.
So, what do you guys think of this?
And please for the love of holy jesus, keep it civil.
I have a fish, if you don't!
Legion
Psi.
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Like in countries they censor *oo*s, you get
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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That or they'll just put in a switch that disables players in those regions from receiving lockbox drops or buying cosmic keys.
Also lest we forget, this is a dilemma that literally every MMO and/or multiplayer game out there today is potentially facing, including several other PWE titles.
I also don't have a problem with game company execs being fined or going to jail for breaking existing gambling laws or even future laws. I've read the parts of the California gambling regulation that define what gambling is and have no doubt lootboxes fit the definition. The people who keep insisting that lootboxes aren't gambling need to start giving some compelling reasons as to why I shouldn't just write them off as swindlers when the regulations can be read by anyone.
It's not like game companies didn't exist and weren't profitable before lootboxes flooded every cash shop ever.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
I hope not, cuz I like this game. And if other places follow suit, their own country will ban it.
If this game goes, I go
I agree alot here and there is a simple way to fix it for CO.
Just do excaly what Warframe does: Sell Cosmetics for Plat (In this case Zen). Allow all items to be traded. And then for "Lockboxes" can be like "Prime item", where you can only farm it or buy it from a special store for a limited time. (Note: You'll always buy excaly what you want like PA in Warframe).
But once it goes, the sale for them items go up, adding more people to sell a item to get gold, to get the gold to get the items.
And the Collectors Store will be the only minor gambling, but you gamble with in-game cash, if you want the very item, right now, you smipley buy it with real money, Warframe still stands with no lockboxs, so can PWE
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Not only that, but where's the line they draw? Will they regulate Pokemon card packs now too? Or candy pouches? Anything sold that's randomized will now be at risk of being regulated.
FFS, this ridiculous law isn't gonna survive. Loot boxes aren't legally defined as gambling though, and are different from casino gambling regardless. Every loot box gives something. It may not be the something you want from them, but it is something. Casino games tend to give a (large) chance of giving nothing in return. This is a very important difference.
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Imagine if car companies only sold $100K luxury cars, because they told you that there just wasn't a market for economy cars, but because making luxury cars was so expensive they can only sell the base model at $100K, if you wanted extra features, like picking the color and stereo system you had to buy random customization packs. Then the company wouldn't even tell you your chances of getting the features you wanted.
I have zero problems with that. If your business model is to trick kids out of their money then maybe you need to be regulated.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If it sells, then sure.
Maybe you do not, but others, like myself, find it nothing less than absurd to ask for that level of regulation.
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Gambling requires a risk of money. There is 0 risk,as you are always guaranteed to receive a prize.
A crane machine could be considered closer to gambling than lootboxes, since you aren't guaranteed to receive a prize if the grabber slips and drops the stuffed animal back into the bin.
This would be like taking Chuck-E-Cheese to court because little Timmy didn't get enough tickets to buy the Super Soaker for a dollar's worth of tokens.
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Unfortunately there is no player skill involved in the outcome, which makes it arguable that Lootboxes/Lockboxes are a lottery. The UK Gambling Commission thinks that boxes which only sell "in game" items and which have no extractable financial value outside of the game aren't lottery items, but those crazy Dutch disagree.
Some of them might not exist anymore were it not for loot boxes. We can't all save our MMOs by selling bathing suits for loli races.
If this does come to fruition in CO I look forward to seeing the complaints about loot boxes turn into complaints about how much it costs to buy the things that were formerly in lootboxes ^_^ though I won't be able to see the looks on people's faces when they realize they're actually spending more to get less once the change hits, and that's a shame.
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I believe that was the insinuation.
****ty business practices that exploit consumers to that degree with such audacity has to stop. I got no problems with lootboxes existing in F2P games that don't hinder player progression or lock content, or those that contain purely cosmetic items. But if I'm expected to pay nearly $100 to get the "full" edition of a triple A game, and if I'm expected to pay a significant amount of money for a season pass that doesn't garuantee the content that satisfies my expectations, I certainly won't be happy being expected to throw in additional money for gamble boxes locking further content. Plenty of others share my viewpoint and that's why legislation is starting to get involved. Enough is enough.
I don't know how CO will ultimately be affected because of this, but I certainly want to see industry giants change their ways and move away from lootboxes that lock content with the sole purpose of milking people's wallets above everything else.
Can't find any references to a Belgian decision on this, outside a reddit comment thread, which is somewhat less reliable than reading a story in the Daily Mail.
So it still looks like the Cryptic boxes are free and clear.
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Nooooooo... They're making games to make money. Anyone can make a game for someone else and not charge anything for it. We are talking about running a business. No one excuses other industries like the video game industry for being garbage at running a business.
"Not only that, but where's the line they draw? Will they regulate Pokemon card packs now too? Or candy pouches? Anything sold that's randomized will now be at risk of being regulated."
From Klaus Preisinger: Source
In California, there are also things like the lotto that are not considered gambling. If you look up laws and regulations, they tend to have A LOT of detail.
"Every loot box gives something."
Winning something is not a stipulation for being considered gambling. If it were, the casino gaming industry could simply have all of their slot machines always dole out at least one penny to easily skirt regulations. Every hand of blackjack or poker could dole out a shiny nickle, win or lose, and instantly not be gambling.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
When a game is ****, it's not going to sell well. There are enough examples out there that bombed not because they didn't have a loot box system to generate revenue. They bombed because they were **** in terms of poor design and marketing decisions.
Costs involved in making the games isn't an excuse to introduce systems solely designed to intentionally lock players out of content with the intention of getting them to repeatedly spend on loot boxes to unlock said content. It isn't an excuse to intentionally slow down or limit a player's progression in the game not for the sake of balance, but just to sell as many loot boxes as possible that speed up progression. Destiny 2 with how the devs intentionally nerfed XP gains to encourage players to spend on loot boxes to speed up progress is a great recent example of this, amongst other bad decisions. Bungie is in a very bad place right now unless they can pull through with something magnificent. Also I don't think I need to bring up the BS EA pulled with Battlefront 2.
Welp, looks like Jon busted this one. We're done here.
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That's good news!, I'll hate to lose this game for something like this, but to be honest, I still bealive that they need to tone down the rarity of lockboxs.
But I have to ask: How excaly are they in the clear?, cuz your still buying countless keys to try get a certain item you wish.
For Example: I want Arcane Flight Unlock, but I have to spend say £50 worth of keys, in a "chance" to get it, still sounds like a no-no in some laws. Cuz it's still "Gambling?"
I do think that should be counter-acted as well, I rather pay up-front for my items (even if they might be pricey, cuz your still paying for EXCALY what you want)
But yeah, for now, I can still keep my heart safely locked away
<Slowly hides a weapon>
Meanwhile, Team Fortress 2 has, apparently, a "cosmetic items market" that permits you to sell some of your drops for cash. They're kind of skirting the intent of this law by only doing this for cosmetic items, not items that provide some in-game advantage, but under the letter of the law, they're in violation.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Ok, thanks for clearing that!
Big weight off my back
And lol I'm not that determined, I got a close pal who buys my keys off me daily, so we agree to disagree, but yes thank you so much for the help
Problem solved \o/
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Also Rampages. You are also gambling to get a drop.
Heck, ban all mob drops. Mobs should give you every item in their drop list upon being killed.
And crits too!
Ban everything. I'll bring the soap to the prison showers.
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Many jurisdictions check these 3 components to determine whether or not something fits their definition of gambling:
1. Payment for eligibility: either real-world money or "good or service of monetary value"
2. Prize: either real-world money or "good or service of monetary value"
3. Game of chance - skill cannot guarantee or "greatly influence" an outcome
It would be easy to interpret any of these components so broadly that stock trades, amusement park games, arcade machines, and many other activities that in any way involve money and chance could be classified as illegal. This is due to the "good or service of monetary value" piece. But that would not make sense. Hence, the specific interpretations are largely left to each jurisdiction.
The only cases where there is no question is when both #1 and #2 are real-world money. That's defined as gambling almost universally.
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That civil enough?
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
When people point out that lots of things can be considered gambling they're not creating a "doomsday scenario", they're pointing out a simple fact. What I would suggest for you is to not pretend that they are fantasizing about a doomsday scenario... especially when they made no indication of such.
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And if that's not a game version of a doomsday scenario...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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If PWE/Cryptic decides to pull that kind of crap like EA wanted to do with Battlefront 2, then start crying bloody murder.
The problem is that those players enjoy the game, and given that, the idea of them wishing doom upon it is ludicrous. This is especially true once you read what they write, upon which it becomes obvious that they believe the game can thrive without lockboxes. Whether that's true or not is irrelevant since we're talking intent. These players aren't giddy about the idea of CO being doomed, they're giddy about lockboxes being doomed. What they are proposing is not a doomsday scenario, but rather a shift in monetization practices.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Checking the statement by the Dutch (translation required), one key problem they had with some loot boxes is that the contents can be traded out of game (note that only 4 of 10 inspected were found in violation). This is not the case for CO (or any PW game as far as I know), so it should be in the clear in the Netherlands. The Belgian statement is considerably less clear, so there could be a problem there.
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Even CCGs are generally not part of the definition of gambling as would be evident by the quote I posted earlier. Maybe I'm wrong, but companies like Wizard are simply selling card packs to people and providing rules. I don't believe they make money from the tournaments like a casino would from blackjack or poker. Even blackjack and poker are not gambling if it's a private game where no one makes money except as a player.
A huge problem with lootboxes is that they are not regulated which means we have no idea what kind of hinky BS video game companies are pulling. We do know that variable pricing for goods can be done automatically based on a number of factors (Scientific Revenue). Who know how the odds are manipulated to screw people over with lootboxes? We don't because the video game industry has been allowed to ignore the law. The AAA industry especially has spent years destroying their own reputation with lies and unfortunate cannot be trusted to control themselves when it comes to taking advantage of customers.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
Again, most countries have specific descriptions of what constitutes "gambling", just as they have statutes describing what constitutes "assault" so that you can't charge someone who touches your shoulder lightly with assault. And the way that lockboxes work in this game - in most games - does not meet the definition of "gambling" in those EU nations where the question has been raised, because there isn't really any way to convert the winnings into currency. (Absent the currency, you might wind up with the sort of absurdist definitions that claim the free games awarded by a pinball machine are "gambling". And yes, that claim has been made as well - almost killed pinball, back in the 1950s.) The problem with those boxes found to be in violation was that the company had set up an exchange where certain dropped items could be traded for cash.
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