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FC.31.20180427.6 - Nemesis Alert Fixes
kaiserin
Posts: 3,228 Cryptic Developer
Nemesis Alert
- Fixed a bug where players with a high science skill could not activate the lower terminals.
- Adjusted the fx timing on the repulsion effect.
- Fixed a bug where Unbreakable could be used to bypass the shield removal effect.
- Fixed a bug where the force fields were considered to be objects for attack interactions.
- Adjusted the zero gravity effect so that players with flight don't have total flight control while under its effect.
- The zero gravity belt now provides a couple seconds of flight control when used.
- Addressed an issue where ranged characters could avoid the core power's damage.
- Slightly increased the damage output on the core power effect.
- Fixed a bug where the boss room lockout was not activating once the alert reached its timer stage.
- Known issue: The lockout is currently not being removed upon mission completion.
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Why? Ground based TPs already have advantages in all the endgame combat, why is it so bad that flight has some use for combat?
If TPs all need to work "the same" for fights, there is a LOT of other changes that need to be made.
because it's realistic? it's hard to move through zero gravity
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
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The question "why" still fully applies. Other TPs are never targeted like this. Like for Eido you want super speed, acrobatics, or maaaaaaybe some slide (already a lot more difficult), but there is nothing added to balance that against the less useful TPs. Now there is a minor part of an alert where flight has bit of an advantage and it's even very much in theme, I don't understand why that should be diminished.
Use:
As someone who has tried it I can assure you that you're concerned over nothing. Flight is still by far the superior choice in zero G. It's like a quarter second of drift after you stop moving.
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That doesn't answer my question though.
Giving acrobatics or superspeed half a second of drift (or even slow them down to 50%) on content that has the gravity debuff will still leave them far superior to flight, but that doesn't happen. Why is it that flight needs to be targeted like this, while other TPs are not on content where they are far superior?
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
As for "flight being targeted" in this alert? Nah, can't say that it is. The other TPs have it way worse, so flight can get in line before it can complain.
Realism isn't a factor here, this was done for game play reasons. They don't want people feeling like they should retcon to flight every time this alert pops into the queue due to it being the one power that was 0% effected while all other TPs were effected greatly. Considering that, they were really gentle about how they did it.
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But for other TPs in other content that is not a problem? Going to eido with flight and tunneling is not going to work as well as acrobatics or superspeed. And for Eido people would actually retcon, for some small zero gravity portion of a custom alert I don't think people are going to retcon.
Success: Lower consoles now thwart unbreakable
Note: Is it intended to be able to make the "4 consoles" victory method significantly easier with Unbreakable, bubbles, etc?
Success: Player lockout at boss phase
Bug: Alert doesn't fail early when all players are locked out.
Bug: Bubble tell for core repel is off center and does not cover the entire platform.
Success: The core vfx and attack are very reliable now and the vfx make sense.
Success: Ranged dps must stay close to the core to be able to use attacks on it.
Success: Stabo Belt is highly functional, acrobats are grateful.
Note:
- "Destroy the core" method feels like the highest difficulty method now by far ( also definitely the most interesting and fun).
- 4 Consoles method is probably mid level depending on group comp and how many people have Unbreakable.
- "Defeat Nemesis" method still most straightforward.
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The reasons for flight being disabled in that other content was either (a) the same reason all TPs were disabled, or (b) very specific to issues revolving around flight and character altitude itself and how they effect the fight. They were not the same reasons as the one for the teeny tiny minor adjustment made to flight in this alert. Apples and oranges.
Also tunneling isn't good anywhere, so we're gonna give that the banana category.
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That very generic reasoning that you can't arbitrary restrict to 1 fight, or 1 TP.
In this alert: They don't want people to feel like they have to retcon due to flight being completely uneffected while others are greatly effected.
In other content: Flight breaks the fight.
Very different reasons.
And I will remind you that this argument is taking place over an extremely minor change that barely even matters. In that regard, what's say we stop arguing over nothing?
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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because it's realistic? it's hard to move through zero gravity
Realistic? In a game about superheroes and comic books? That's a laugh. Hawk Girl, Superman, and Green lantern never have trouble flying in zero g. Though being weightless would make flight with wings, easier not harder. That's before getting into rockets and other forms of propulsion.
Travel power removal of any kind is horrible and bad design. The game has plenty of frustrating designs, this one, and the shield removal debuff, shouldn't be added on top of it all.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I understand it isn't as bad as some people are making it out to be, but, even so, the question of "why?" is very important. In the vast majority of the game, flight powers are targeted. Sure, they can give you an advantage over certain type of enemies. But, still annoying.
For walking (floating) it's because you have less grip because you are not "pushed" against the floor by gravity, so you are constantly searching for enough grip to overcome your inertia. I don't see how that translates to a flight power that has no problem overcoming your inertia when in a gravitational field of about 1g.
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I see this argument being made sometimes which basically boils down to "Some aspects of this settings don't conform to the concept of realism so nothing has to". However that just doesn't hold up. Settings can have some unrealistic things in them but it's clear that other aspects are meant to be realistic. For example Skyrim has dragons in it, which aren't realistic, but does that mean that making all the snow be made out of marshmallows, giving bandits gigantic balloon heads, and having all buildings on fire at all times suddenly fits the setting? No, of course not. "Dragons and magic in an otherwise realistic setting" is what they're going for, so for example turning all animals into My Little Pony characters no longer fits into the bounds of reality within that setting. Just because one thing is unrealistic doesn't mean that the entirety of the setting's reality can be in a constant state of wacky flux.
Zero G making you drift a bit while flying doesn't seem particularly realistic to me. This change wasn't made for the sake of realism, it was made for gameplay reasons. That being said, since you don't care about realism then you won't care if it's unrealistic that zero G makes you drift while flying. Someone was asking about it. I imagine that if you were moving when you unteleported that you would end up drifting in whatever direction your momentum was going just like if you unteleport in mid air. However if you stopped before unteleporting then you wouldn't drift because you have no momentum and no direction for the game to have you drift in.
You should go test it tho and post your results o3o=b
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Looks like this alert is already taking a fun dive from the sound of things...
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And in truth, that is what Spiny and the other guy should have pointed out. Not what you two did.
In truth, the arguement "Some aspects of this settings don't conform to the concept of realism so nothing has to" isn't what people are actually talking about when they tell someone to not use our realism on games. What we actually mean (at least, I do) is "this game says X=Marshmellow, accept it and stop arguing that X should equal Rock like it does in our world". Cause, yes, I do realize there are some asinine people out there that would say "This game is not real, so, nothing has to make sense." Which, is not true, the game has to make sense for that game world.
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What I pointed out is that realism doesn't matter in this case and that that entire line of argument is silly because the change had nothing to do with it, and I stand by that. Pointing out the silliness of the "one thing is unrealistic so everything can be jello" was me debunking what I see as a weak argument - if you want to continue with that feel free to pm me or start another thread, I think this thread has gotten enough essays about an irrelevant topic from us.
Have you tried the alert? Cause if you're going down the "how could they do this to flight users?!" road, it ends at "oh it wasn't a big deal and I feel silly" town. Nobody is going to be choosing not to use their flight in this alert. If someone has both flight and teleport they might use both.
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There is no "gravity control" framework in this game, so clearly you are flying through some other means.
I mean, if you are going to try to play the realism card then you have to take it all the way, right?
Normally when you are flying, you apply thrust to control your velocity, including remaining stationary, in normal gravity.
In 0-G those factors are different.
Upward velocity in particular.
Any movements can alter your flight path. You have to constantly correct that by applying the right amount of force in the right direction(s).
When flying upwards you normally have gravity working against you, so when you decide to level off on Earth you have to apply more force than when you decide to level off in 0-G.
You also have to apply more force to fly "downward". How much more? Well, that takes practice to find out, and since you will be spending most of your time in a 1-G environment, let's just say that your hero would need a lot more time than they have to give to perfect that.
And while I have yet to try out the new alert, if Spinnytop and, especially, Kaiserin say that it's minor then I'll take them at their word.
Yeah, flight takes it on the chin in a lot of fights, and even on indoor maps where the ceiling can make the camera view difficult for some.
If it takes a small hit here while other travel powers take a lot more of a hit, then it still comes out ahead and complaining about this seems a poor choice of hills to die on.
While it's a nicely thought out idea, that wont make you drift for half a second.
Nobody has tried to convince anyone that this change to flight is terrible and is destroying flight or anything. The point is that "it's the best TP by far so it needs something to tone it down" only ever seems to apply to flight. And while I don't expect them to change things back in this alert, I felt it shouldn't go unquestioned.
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Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Likely always the reason that flight is neutered when it is. Is there actually a scenario outside of Eido and his OMs where this is done anyway? With so few examples this too could be filed under "not a big deal" and "claims that flight is under attack are wildly overblown".
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That is because those opponents do not have effective means of fighting against flying targets. IE: They either use a weak attack that you can laugh at, or they stand there under you while you bombard them. And there are bosses like that. Jack Fool used to be one.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
- core can't be attacked from above now, which could use a visual justification (like a forcefield vfx)
- repel immunity on top platform works well now
- consoles work well with high science skill now
- core difficulty seems ok, it needs some organiztion but nothing to difficult
- minnion spawns are very slow during bossfight, this makes the consoles ending a lot more doable
- lockout and related teleport work well
- the wireframe knockback timing is a lot better now
- the wireframe knockback is not centered on the platform properly, it doesn't reach one side of the platform
- shadow form, pff and dual blades (due to eye of the storm) are still quite slow to kill, lower dps teams can easily run into problems with those
The Action Figures section of the Nemesis vendor still displays Nemesis Tokens for currency, instead of Nemesis Recognition.
When the alert fails, players are not automatically removed from the alert (like when it succeeds). Players must leave manually through the SOCRATES interface.
Shadow Form's Shadowfeast still seems too high. It was healing about 16,000 health every 3 seconds, which is a difficult hurdle for the "easy path" in a pickup group. Gadgeteering's PFF (about 10,000 every 3 seconds) and Dual Blades' Eye of the Storm are also a concern.
All 3 victory conditions are rewarding 12 Nemesis Recognition. I'm not sure whether that is intentional.
Knockback and repel in the Zero-G environment are difficult to deal with. Being able to knock the nemesis itself across the room is frustrating when you're paired with a teammate using something like Haymaker or Force Cascade. The repel from robot minions is also quite an experience.
The laser console shutdown AoE could probably use a few feet added to its range. Activating some consoles from a little off-center resulted in missing an adjacent laser. I imagine some players will not understand what went wrong in that situation.
In other custom alerts....
Hi-Pan has a complete TP disable for the entire map. Mainly because flying/teleporting let people skip most of the alert. But also because the boss fight requires people to stand on the ground for the stupid yin/yang circle to work....
Warlord.... complete TP disable, but only in the boss room. I honestly have no idea why they bothered. Warlord just shoots at you the entire time. Yes, he makes fire patches... but those can float in mid-air.
Cybermind has TP disable to make the thing where you run to grab colors harder for people who use acrobatics and super speed.
Forum Malvanum doesn't disable TP but has a "low" gravity effect that causes fliers to slowly drift towards the ground. This honestly feels like a bug because it happens in ALL low-G maps.
GRAB: N/A
Red Winter: TP disables would make this a lot more likely to fail since you have to run across the map during a timer.
Green Dragon: N/A
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