Discussion Thread: The Fist/The Master/Dragon Spirit Archetype Changes

kaiserin · January 2018

Archetypes

The Fist
Corrected diminishing returns on this archetype.
Added a hue override on this archetype so all powers have matching hues.

New progression path
Overall goals: Standardize this archetype to be more in line with other archetype setups and give a couple more power choices and survival tools.

1 Vicious Strikes
1 One Hundread Hands
6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai
8 Way of the Warrior
11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Backhand Chop
14 Form of the Master
17 Dragon Uppercut OR Burning Chi Fist
21 Parry
25 Chi Manipulation
30 Open Palm Strike OR Dragon Kick
35 Intensity
40 Smoke Bomb OR Bountiful Chi Resurgence

The Master
Corrected diminishing returns on this archetype.
Added a hue override on this archetype so all powers have matching hues.
Replaced Strength secondary superstat with Recovery.
Updated The Master's innate talent to include Recovery. Added "The Dragon" innate talent that has the Master's old values.

New progression path
Overall Goals: Smooth out this archetype's power choices as it relied on Thundering Kicks for quite some time to deal damage.
Replaced strength with recovery to assist this archetype with early level energy management. While strength helps it deal more damage, it's not critical to any of its abilities.
More utility to tank with.

1 Vicious Strikes
1 Thundering Kicks
6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai
8 Lightning Reflexes
11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Dragon Kick
14 Form of the Master
17 Burning Chi Fist OR Open Palm Strike
21 Parry
25 Chi Manipulation
30 Bountiful Chi Resurgence
35 Shuriken Storm OR Bladed Cyclone
40 Masterful Dodge

New Archetype: Dragon Spirit
This will be a free archetype.

Balanced Role
Strength-Dexterity-Recovery
Warden-Brawler

1 Righteous Fists
1 One Hundred Hands
6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Elbow Slam
8 Way of the Warrior OR Lightning Reflexes
11 Inexorable Tides OR Dragon Kick
14 Form of the Master
17 Burning Chi Fist
21 Retaliation
25 Chi Manipulation
30 Open Palm Strike OR Shockwave
35 Intensity OR Bountiful Chi Resurgence
40 Fury of the Dragon

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criswolf09 · January 2018

Suggestion
Change the Energy Builder of the Master to Righteous Fists instead of Vicious strikes please

magpieuk2014 · January 2018

Not keen on that Master build. Not at all. It needs Inexorable Tides at 11, an absence of powers which knock enemies away from it, and a spicy single target attack at 35. Otherwise it's just a collection of forms and utility powers in search of a focus.

criswolf09 · January 2018

magpieuk2014 said:
Not keen on that Master build. Not at all. It needs Inexorable Tides at 11, an absence of powers which knock enemies away from it, and a spicy single target attack at 35. Otherwise it's just a collection of forms and utility powers in search of a focus.

Have you actually read the upcoming changes to the powerset review? Open Palm Strike will have a knock to adv, as well a
new power/reskin of Iron Cyclone with a similar adv.

magpieuk2014 · January 2018

I have read the changes and I have tried the new Master out. At the moment it over performs because the Quick Manuevering buff isn't dropping on dodge and it does do a little better damage overall, but:

it still doesn't synergise too well with its specs, esp the Warden spec tree, as it only has one optional power w triggers Upper Hand (up to 6% damage bonus to Melee attacks) - that's triggered by Bleed, Stagger, etc, which other sets and ATs have as basic functions. If it worked on Chi Flame as well, that would make Burning Chi Fist give a useful buff.

I'd question the need for an EU on an AT which has moderate energy issues and an EB power which has useful advantages. It also gives quite a long pause in the power progression and means you're not getting full value for BCR at 30 as a self heal until you get Masterful Dodge at level 40 - leaving Masterful Dodge where it is at level 25 and giving a proper haymaker style power at 40 would be better.

Burning Chi Fist comes across as a utility power rather than a strong hit - its damage is equivalent to a moderate Tier charged blast attack - and at level 17 it's ideally placed to be given Restoration as an advantage to give some low level self-healing.

I'd still like Inexorable Tides at 11, too, rather than Crashing Wave - the leg sweep is such a classic Martial Arts master move....

flowcyto · January 2018

ATs getting EUs at 25 is pretty normal. They could maybe move BCR to lvl 17, though Chained Kunai at lvl 6 does offer an early self-heal option as well. Afaik, BCF is currently Unarmed's highest single-target base dps; it should be hitting quite harder than a blast (unless you are comparing it to a blast from a dps build).

I wouldn't necc be against adding Inex Tides, though, since neither new AT build has it available atm.

magpieuk2014 · January 2018

The thing is, the Master doesn't need it. Now you have REC as an SS, Fuel My Fire in the CON spec tree, spec points to burn and an EB with useful Dodge advantages... there's no shortage of energy. The AT is all about the dodge and it seems weird to give it Masterful Dodge at 40 when it doesn't desperately need that EU at 25, even if that is the norm for ATs.

Re: BCF - if that's meant to be the maximum dps performing power for this set then I'd rather it was toned down and made a little more of a utility power, a way of applying and refreshing Chi Flame. That way something like Dragon Uppercut (which is a little lost at the moment) could be made a level 40 power, doing decent damage and with an extra bonus (scaling with DEX), Rupture-style, against targets affected by Chi Flame. Chi Flame would be consumed, of course. Fairly stiff energy cost for balancing, of course, but then you'd get a nice set of powers choices - ones which maintain dodge and defence, ones which build stacks for a devastating strike. That's very Martial arts master, to me...

deadman20 · January 2018

kaizerin wrote: »

The Fist
1 Vicious Strikes

1 One Hundread Hands

6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai

8 Way of the Warrior

11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Backhand Chop

14 Form of the Master

17 Dragon Uppercut OR Burning Chi Fist

21 Parry

25 Chi Manipulation

30 Open Palm Strike OR Dragon Kick

35 Intensity

40 Smoke Bomb OR Bountiful Chi Resurgence

Very interesting I don't see anything wrong with this one, or at least anything I want to change. Seems like a lot of fun.

kaizerin wrote: »

The Master
1 Vicious Strikes

1 Thundering Kicks

6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai

8 Lightning Reflexes

11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Dragon Kick

14 Form of the Master

17 Burning Chi Fist OR Open Palm Strike

21 Parry

25 Chi Manipulation

30 Bountiful Chi Resurgence

35 Shuriken Storm OR Bladed Cyclone

40 Masterful Dodge

There are a few things I would like changed here. As much as I like Vicious Strikes, since the Fist already uses it and the Master seeming like a more obvious choice to have the more fluid and fast motions, I'd rather have it use Righteous Fists. The choice between a Single-target Click Stun or an AoE Charged Stun seems interesting, but could probably be done a bit better if looked at differently.

As a tank, I do like the idea of giving it an AoE to grab the attention of multiple foes with powers like Shuriken Storm or Bladed Cyclone. Masterful Dodge and BCR are incredibly important to the Master as well, allowing it to sustain itself in combat. These being pushed rather far back in power choices makes early-game tanking a bit rougher if the player chooses to pick up Thunderbolt Lunge over Chained Kunai.

I propose this build:

The Master

- 1 Righteous Fists
- 1 Thundering Kicks
- 6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai
- 8 Lightning Reflexes
- 11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Inexorable Tides
- 14 Form of the Master
- 17 Bountiful Chi Resurgence
- 21 Parry
- 25 Chi Manipulation
- 30 Dragon Kick OR Open Palm Strike
- 35 Masterful Dodge
- 40 Shuriken Storm OR Bladed Cyclone

Why Crashing Wave Kick vs Inexorable Tides?
- I believe that the choice of a Single-target Click Stun is comparable to the AoE Click Knock-up. It allows for quick and fluid disruption on demand that the Master can easily make use of in its early levels, and still find great use late-game.

Why Dragon Kick vs Open Palm Strike?
- Both of these are charged attacks, but they are also AoEs of different capabilities. Dragon Kick being a more powerful Close-ranged Charged AoE Stun makes it a great option to have late-game, but Open Palm Strike now innately having a 25 foot Cylinder AoE effect also gives it consideration when attacking targets that could be slightly out of reach of the Master's particular effective range.
- Both powers have Advantages that can allow them to apply Chi Flame, so this is always an option regardless of which powers are chosen. But since BCR is now considered a Chi effect, that will more than likely be what is fueling the Master's EU given its role.
- Open Palm Strike's rather unique AoE and the advantage to change its Knock-Back into a Knock-To makes it a good attack to consider vs a Spherical AoE Stun when the options of a Single-target Stun and an AoE Knock Up are both available early. Allowing players to decide whether or not they want to double down on either Stuns or Knocks to be used in different situations, or make use of both for a more disruptive playstyle that could benefit the Master significantly.
- I know the Fist already has the player consider this choice.

Why BCR at Lv17?
- Given that Form of the Master now procs on Chi Energy effects, the only way the form would be procced at that level would be to take Dragon Kick over CWK, and that's if you take Dragon Kick's advantage. Then you would have to wait until Lv17 to pick up the 100% Chance Chi Energy power of Burning Chi Fist over Open Palm Strike with its advantage to reliably trigger the form.
- Rather than forcing a choice that can affect the flow of the AT in the long run, opting to push BCR at Lv17 gives the AT a reliable way to trigger the form and allows the power choices to seem much more meaningful for playstyle rather than asking the player whether or not they want to reliably stack their own form.
- It's not a perfect solution, I'd rather be able to stack the form when I get it, but given that Unarmed doesn't really have reliable Chi Energy effects early on, this is the best I could come up with without asking the player to decide whether or not they want to stack their form at all this early... or without making the AT look like "The Fist with a Defense Passive".
- Really helps the AT sustain itself at early levels, which can be very good for those that like to try their hand at alerts. It's also helpful if the player decides to take the lunge over the kunai, giving them a self-healing option.

Why not Fluidity vs Parry?
- Because Fluidity doesn't have the much needed Damage Resistance for tanks that Parry provides.

magpieuk2014 · January 2018

The Fist, btw: I don't think you've corrected the Diminishing Returns, as it is still kicking out crazy-**** damage (7k crits??).

As it stands, though, I don't think this proposed build works. I would suggest the following (try it out, you'll see what I mean). It's not standard but I don't think you can make this AT work in a standard fashion - I tried the proposed new build at levels 20 and 30 and it's almost impossible to keep alive.... it definitely needs proper self-healing before an Energy Unlock.

1 Vicious Strikes
1 One Hundred Hands
6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai
8 Way of the Warrior
11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Backhand Chop
14 Form of the Tiger OR Form of the Master
17 Dragon Kick OR Open Palm Strike
21 Fluidity
25 Bountiful Chi Resurgence
30 Dragon Uppercut OR Burning Chi Fist
35 Steadfast
40 Intensity OR Smoke Bomb

The only other power change needed to make this work would be Restoration as an advantage to the Dragon powers to give some self-healing before BCR kicks in.

Suggestion for the Master progression:

1 Vicious Strikes
1 Thundering Kicks
6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai
8 Lightning Reflexes
11 Inexorible Tides OR Dragon Kick
14 Form of the Master
17 Burning Chi Fist OR Open Palm Strike
21 Parry
25 Masterful Dodge
30 Bountiful Chi Resurgence
35 Shuriken Storm OR Bladed Cyclone
40 ?? (new power?) - that Ultimate Roundhouse kick everyone wants...

Why? Basically... the Master benefits from higher Dodge and Avoidance earlier on which makes it more durable; the stacking buff on Thundering Kicks means it can keep on dodging/reducing damage and support itself via items until a higher level than the Fist. It needs a small self-heal around level 17; hence the request for Restoration on the Dragon powers.

The Fist is horribly squishy and while you can get away with that up until around level 20 (if you have Restoration to fall back on via Dragon Kick) after that you need to be able to self-heal rapidly. The combination of Fluidity/Flowing Like The River and BCR/Resurgent Reiki works really well and you'd feel as if the character was genuinely becoming more durable and powerful as you levelled towards 30. Form of the Tiger is a decent alternative as a toggle form if you're not going down the Chi route - Form of the Master works just as well if you are. Steadfast (being based on crits) is a better EU for a DEX primary AT than Chi Manipulation and is needed later - the choice at level 40 is just about more damage or an escape route in extremis.

zamuelpwe · January 2018

deadman20's suggestions sound good and the only thing I might add is that DEX and REC should maybe be swapped in the order they're unlocked. At a low level, that's not a long amount of time but it might be a good QoL change considering the sheer fact that REC is being added is to smooth out energy issues at lower levels.

deadman20 · January 2018

kaizerin wrote: »

The Fist
- 1 Vicious Strikes
- 1 One Hundread Hands
- 6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai
- 8 Way of the Warrior
- 11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Backhand Chop
- 14 Form of the Master
- 17 Dragon Uppercut OR Burning Chi Fist
- 21 Parry
- 25 Chi Manipulation
- 30 Open Palm Strike OR Dragon Kick
- 35 Intensity
- 40 Smoke Bomb OR Bountiful Chi Resurgence

Okay, so I know I said there was nothing wrong about this progression, but after thinking a little more on it I do think that The Fist could be a bit more "fisty"... blech. Think primarily on a more direct street-brawling type or MMA fighter.

For this one I propose this build, incoming "That AT has too many choices!":

The Fist
- 1 Vicious Strikes
- 1 One Hundred Hands
- 6 Mighty Leap OR Thunderbolt Lunge
- 8 Way of the Warrior
- 11 Elbow Slam OR Rising Knee
- 14 Form of the Master
- 17 Chain Kunai OR Bountiful Chi Resurgence
- 21 Parry OR Retaliation
- 25 Chi Manipulation
- 30 Dragon Uppercut OR Burning Chi Fist
- 35 Intensity
- 40 Smoke Bomb OR Evasive Maneuvers

Mighty Leap vs Thunderbolt Lunge
-Either way, the AT gets a lunge. One smacks with a FIST, the other with a FOOT. A flavor choice, and potentially fun advantages to consider.

Elbow Slam vs Rising Knee
-The choice of placing a Charged Paralyze in the Fist's kit vs a Charged Knock. Elbow Slam can make itself a nice setup power via Demolish advantage, while Rising Knee could be a good option to maintain Demolish if the player decides to opt for the advantage on 100-Hands. Enabling the choice between a more Charged-based playstyle vs a Sustained one.

Chain Kunai vs Bountiful Chi Resurgence
-Here we can give the player an option for an extra attack to close gaps with, as well as a potential self-heal via Advantage. Or the option to take a reliable self-heal that would reduce damage output. Either of these solutions works in favor for the Fist one way or another.

Parry vs Retaliation
-Both are pretty good really. One can return damage, the other can empower the next strike the player can use. Their advantages also prove to be very helpful for the Fist if they decide to take them. In either case, the Fist would enjoy this choice.

Dragon Uppercut vs Burning Chi Fist
-Both make great spike attacks for the AT, but depending on how the player wants to utilize the AT, either of these choices can enhance their playstyle. Dragon Uppercut can provide great sustaining options while Burning Chi Fist can be used to set enemies up for further punishment.

Smoke Bomb vs Evasive Maneuvers
-Smoke Bomb's a great way to clear threat, but outside of that it doesn't do much. Evasive Maneuvers can help provide self-healing with an advantage which becomes beneficial if the player opts for BCR instead of Kunai since Kunai and EM both share the same healing advantage.
-EM does hide its threat wipe behind an advantage, so it becomes something the user can opt into alongside its healing advantage and innate dodge buff.
-The quirk of EM that the Fist AT should consider is that it puts the user out of position. That can be useful to gain a slight reprieve from incoming assault, but it also leaves the Fist unable to attack until they return to melee range. Though that's not too bad an issue if the user always has a lunge or even a potential way to pull a target to them, away from the main battle allowing the Fist to single them out.

riverocean · January 2018

Count me in as another vote for Righteous Fists instead of VS. Also Deadman's suggestions are extremely intriguing.

magpieuk2014 · January 2018

+1 for Righteous Fists.

I like Deadman's suggestions but I wonder if that's another Archetype, the Street Warrior? I saw someone lamenting their CoH character who was that type of build - a kind of Mixed MMA character, Unarmed MA/Chain weapons/Might sort of thing....

Have been testing out the Fist on PTS and - taking progression cues from the Rockstar AT, which is a bundle of laughs to level, gets its Toggle Form at 11 and self-heal at 17 - I think this is a better balanced build than the one currenly proposed.

Suggestion

The Fist

DEX/REC/STR
Spec: DEX/Brawler/Vindicator

1 Righteous Fists
1 One Hundred Hands
6 Smoke Bomb Lunge OR Chained Kunai
8 Way of the Warrior
11 Form of the Master
14 Dragon Kick OR Open Palm Strike
17 Bountiful Chi Resurgence
21 Parry
25 Steadfast / Chi Manipulation
30 Dragon Uppercut OR Burning Chi Fist
35 Intensity
40 Smoke Bomb

You can swap out Steadfast for Chi Manipulation if you must, but as this is a DEX PSS character you have a better chance of making it proc (around 33% per strike, as opposed to 10% for Chi Flame) and it gives better energy over time.

You don't really need those utility powers at Tier 11 on the original build; Dragon Kick at 14 provides an AoE Stun and reliable source of Chi Flame application, Open Palm Strike is a strong AoE Knock, and removing them means that you have both a strong attack early in the power progression as well as a proper self-heal before level 30.

Smoke Bomb Lunge, btw, has the Sudden Strike advantage, which is a bonus to critical hits; not a bad thing to have here.

magpieuk2014 · January 2018

The Master remains, well... a bit meh.

The dodge changes have made it a little less tank-y than previous versions and attempts to make it do more damage earlier in the power progression aren't very successful - there are also some powers in the proposed rotation which don't play well with the whole Chi thing. So...

1 Vicious Strikes
1 Thundering Kicks
6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Chained Kunai

(Chained Kunai I'm not fond of - it charges very slowly and the range seems limited. If we could get the version that the Nightmare Invasion Horrors have, that would be nice...)

8 Lightning Reflexes

~~11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Dragon Kick~~

That's a single target stun or an Aoe Stun which applies Chi Flame. Not the best choice.
Inexorable Tides, which I like, doesn't work too well here either because it's a Knock (to which enemies become resistant, more so than stun) and doesn't add Chi Flame.

Suggestion
Replace Crashing Wave Kick with Inexorable Tides
Give Inexorable Tides an Adv which gives a chance to add Chi Flame to each target hit

14 Form of the Master
~~17 Burning Chi Fist OR Open Palm Strike~~

Neither really does enough damage at lvl17 to make them worth coming off Thundering Kicks (which buffs dodge and provides energy) and / or Dragon Kick. You can try and set it up as a combo with Dragon Kick (to stun) and then BCF to damage but that's not devastating and you'll lose your dodge stacks. Low damage is a bit of an issue with this AT, staying in the fight is more important. Dragon Kick will be quite strong enough when its' AoE bug is fixed.

Suggestion
Pls replace with Bountiful Chi Resurgence

21 Parry
25 Chi Manipulation
~~30 Bountiful Chi Resurgence~~

Suggestion
Move BCR to 17 and Shuriken Storm / Bladed Cyclone to 30

However: Neither of these powers add Chi Flame, which makes them energy hogs, difficult to maintain and make you tend to lose dodge stacks.

Suggestion
Floating Butterfly (Shuriken) should be a Chi Flame effect, Bladed Cyclone should have a % chance to add Chi Flame and have base damage slightly buffed.

~~35 Shuriken Storm OR Bladed Cyclone~~

Suggestion
Move BCR to 17 and Shuriken Storm / Bladed Cyclone to 30, Make Masterful Dodge the level 35 power

~~40 Masterful Dodge~~

Suggestion
Make either Burning Chi Fist or Dragon Uppercut the level 40 power

Re: BCF - this is probably the right power for the Master. The Righteous Fury adv is good, the power is low cost, fast to charge and quick to recharge, but the damage it does as part of the Master build is only OK and we're probably short of a debuff that the Master can use for additional damage without allowing DPS MA builds to be too powerful when using the same power.

criswolf09 · February 2018

I see no way for the Master AT to apply the Demolish debuff, please add a power to its progression that applies it.

legendarylycan · February 2018

you're assuming that the design goal intends the master be able to apply demolish

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

Suggestion
Give Thundering Kicks the ability to add Chi Spark - a stacking buff (stacks up to eight times) with a ten second duration. Chi Spark is applied/refreshed on completion of the Thundering Kicks combo.

Then slightly lower the base damage of Burning Chi Fist and add an advantage which converts each stack of Chi Spark into additional damage.

Why? With the Fist being a DEX primary (and causing lots of crits) it's noticeable how the damage output of BCF has been balanced; you can make it go sky high with an offensive passive and focus on crits, but without either of those it's not actually that great - no better than a Tier0/1 blast attack from a DPS.

A character like the Master or MA Tank with a defensive passive like Defiance needs be able to do some decent hits from time to time, and this mechanism means they can do so. There's player skill involved in keeping an eye on the stacks of Chi Spark and timing the heavy blow without losing all your dodge stacks or in choosing when to block (knowing you might lose your offensive advantage) and it doesn't give too much extra help to DPS.

criswolf09 · February 2018

Actually all the tanks with the exception of the Mountain can apply a dmg resist debuff to generate more agro.
1. Glacier: Has the hardfrost adv on Ice Blast that reduces Ice dmg resist of the target by 18%
2. Invincible: Either Minigun or Eye Beam can apply Burn Through if they have their special advs:
3. The Rockstar: Can apply No Quarter via Arc of Ruin's adv
4. The Behemoth: Although there hasn't been a Might pass, the AT has the power to apply Demolish with the power itself

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

True, but debuffing DR is a different category of effect to being able to generate half-decent damage numbers in the first place. My Rockstar can routinely hit for 3.5-4K damage with Annihilate, and potentially more with Unleashed Rage. The Master gets nowhere near that at any time, hence the need for an "under the radar" boost.

zhene · February 2018

And hey, please, change The Fist with blades when i'm buffering

jaazaniah1 · February 2018

I'm mostly curious if it is envisioned that the Master, with Lightning Reflexes, will be at all useful as any kind of tank for Cosmics, TA, Eido? I know that my FF LR tank can handle other content, but not these others, unless I want to follow a fairly narrow design trajectory. IOW, why create a tanking AT that can't tank the final game content? How do Devs imagine the Master functioning at that level?

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

Based on Pantagruel's experiences in the other PTS Thread, it won't.

pantagruel01 · February 2018

jaazaniah1 said:
I'm mostly curious if it is envisioned that the Master, with Lightning Reflexes, will be at all useful as any kind of tank for Cosmics, TA, Eido?

The Master should be fine for TA, most stuff there doesn't hit hard enough that you actually need 100% dodge and only Grond removes travel powers so you can get a dodge buff from your travel power.

For the other Cosmics, well, I think I could tank Qwyjibo as a Master with the gear on my current dodge tank. Kigatilik applies -3.3% dodge so I think it would be necessary to rely on Floating Lotus Blossom and hoping the buff doesn't get eaten by bugs (dodged heals, etc) or just random damage (the random clouds of cold that appear on the altar can probably eat your buff, as can lingering storm effects). Teleiosaurus only applies a dodge debuff if you fail to block her breath, but even without bugs floating lotus blossom is likely to be eaten by random damage from the baby, and in general it's extremely difficult to maintain your buffs once the baby is up, as you have to block its knocks and holds at the same time as dealing with mama bites.

And all of that is with a full set of GCR gear -- you know, the stuff you're doing cosmics to get. If you're using, say, blues and armadillo secondaries (basic newbie level 40 tank gear), you don't really have a chance.

evilwithinpp · February 2018

I find it sad how the devs don't consider this important enough to change some things about it. Not just for Lightning Reflexes, but for Regeneration and Personal Force Field too. A lot of time has passed since endgame content was released, and barely anything changed for the better.
I know some people that gave up on their passive and changed it to Defiance/Invulnerability so they can do better in endgame, as well as people that gave up on doing the content. I don't think that diffent defensive passives should make boss tanking significantly harder or easier at the same level of gear.

flowcyto · February 2018

evilwithinpp#5672 said:
I find it sad how the devs don't consider this important enough to change some things about it. Not just for Lightning Reflexes, but for Regeneration and Personal Force Field too. A lot of time has passed since endgame content was released, and barely anything changed for the better.
I know some people that gave up on their passive and changed it to Defiance/Invulnerability so they can do better in endgame, as well as people that gave up on doing the content. I don't think that diffent defensive passives should make boss tanking significantly harder or easier at the same level of gear.

It is hard to balance the overall mitigation a dodge setup takes vs. the spike dmg its subject to, though. Same thing w/ the overall healing/shielding Regen/PFF can give vs. the vuln to spike dmg. Perhaps giving these setups more dynamic ways to lower their non-DmgRes factors in trade for more reliability- like if you could lower your avoidance to boost your dodge, so even beginner LR setups could get 100% dodge easy, but would have to weaken their avoidance considerably in order to do so. That kind of stuff does make the other passives more like Defiance/Invuln at the high-end, but unless you change the nature of the fights themselves drastically then I'm not sure how else you could do it, and while also not unbalancing LR/PFF/Regen for every other content.

legendarylycan · February 2018

i say just tune the values on dodge/avoidance DR so 100% dodge is easy to get even with just the LR passive and basic gear, but any significant amount of avoidance would require significant investment - get rid of the risky RNG with not having a constant 100% dodge and potentially having it fail you when you need it most

pantagruel01 · February 2018

A time-scaled dodge buff (say, 5% x activation time of power, 2p advantage on LR, so better than current for power activation speed > 1.2s) would generally do the job of giving enough bonus to get to 100% on cosmics but not making it better on chaff.

thebuckeye · February 2018

Bug: Dragon Kick Targeting Arc Rank Up bug
Where it happens: In Combat
What happens: Dragon Kick is supposed to be a Sphere PbAoE now and not require a target, but when taking increased ranks the power requires a target and if the target is greater than ~120degrees outside of your character's line of sight they are flagged by a system message saying they are outside the targeting arc.

zamuelpwe · February 2018

While most will have a higher emphasis on the numbers in testing, as a bit of subjective feedback I'd like to say Thank You for making the new AT free. Considering I subscribe only occasionally via time cards, there are players who will like the option. Also, 100 Hands will make it feel different from the other Silver melee ATs that are combo based.

lordnightmare · February 2018

Looking at the new Dragon Spirit AT the only question I have is why is the level 17 power not Dragon Uppercut instead of Burning Chi Fist? Or perhaps the level 11 choice InexTides or Dragon Uppercut instead of InexTides or Dragon Kick?

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

Presumably they are looking to make a wholly Chi-based offensive AT. I mentioned in my comments on the Fist that there are actually better unarmed choices in the Unarmed MA set which don't work around that mechanism (Steadfast instead of Chi Manipulation), so hopefully they'll reflect that.

I'll try the Dragon Spirit AT out and report back but I know I had a look at Fury of the Dragon when I was testing the Fist and it had pretty major energy issues; that's still going to be the case with a set of power choices which don't always apply Chi Flame (hello Inexorable Tides).

lordnightmare · February 2018

You would think since this one seems to be trying to be a mix between the Master and Fist it would attempt to allow choice between both Chi-Based and Focus/Rush Based offense.

Fury of the Dragon could be easily replaced with something that isn't a joke but Cryptic seems to want every AT now to have an ultimate so you can't really convince them otherwise.

shadowolf505 · February 2018

Fury of the Dragon is better now. Have you tested the new version of it?

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

New Archetype: Dragon Spirit
This will be a free archetype.

Balanced Role
Strength-Dexterity-Recovery
Warden-Brawler

1 Righteous Fists
1 One Hundred Hands
6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Elbow Slam
8 Way of the Warrior OR Lightning Reflexes
11 Inexorable Tides OR Dragon Kick
14 Form of the Master
17 Burning Chi Fist
21 Retaliation
25 Chi Manipulation
30 Open Palm Strike OR Shockwave
35 Intensity OR Bountiful Chi Resurgence
40 Fury of the Dragon

I tried this and it's OK; the WotW version is better than Lightning Reflexes, which doesn't provide enough overall dodge coverage without Thundering Kicks.

Then I looked at it and thought that it was probably a bit similar to the existing ATs, with the Chi powers and the BCR self-heal so why would you buy the latter? Dragon says a bit more fire powers, to me.... the ultimate is fun but otherwise it's not so fiery...

So. Taking its inspiration from Hi-Pan and the Red Banner goons, can I suggest the following? It's chi-based but a real hybrid, which starts off similarly to the Fist and then goes off in a different direction. I've also found a place for Inexorable Tides...

Suggestion

Spectral Dragon 2.0

STR/CON/REC
Sentry-Warden

1 Vicious Strikes
1 One Hundred Hands
6 Inexorable Tides or Thunderbolt Lunge
8 Unbreakable
11 Dragon Kick
14 Form of the Master
17 Fire Breath or Pyre
21 Retaliation or Fire Shield
25 Chi Manipulation
30 Dragon Uppercut
35 Absorb Heat
40 Fury of the Dragon

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

(You could add Open Palm Strike to 30 to offer a knock away option)

lordnightmare · February 2018

..I nearly vomited at the mere sight of fire powers in this. Especially when they seem to only serve to apply clinging flames so as to heal with Absorb Heat.

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

Dragons, to me, breathe fire; and we already have Hi-Pan and his minions who use a mix of Fire Breath and MA attacks, so it's a game-world inspired build.

Overall it's a bit late to be queasy about this power mix. There's no "Absorb Chi" power in the new set and three ATs working on a dodge/BCR basis is too many. Having to use Absorb Heat makes it play very differently to the Fist and Master... you should try it out.

lordnightmare · February 2018

It plays somewhat differently but mixing two sets with little to no overlap just for concept doesn't mean it will be functional. Remember the Automaton when it first came out and how badly built it was?

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

I know what you mean about the Automaton but that was largely down to the Toggle Form being messed up and the build inspiration drying up at level 25, where they clearly didn't know where to go next.

I have tried that Dragon build out in the Powerhouse at some length and it's definitely functional. Perhaps not optimised but that's the point, it's a hybrid. It can do damage, it's pretty robust, it does some knock and stun, it would probably run end-game content with the right gear, but overall there's no sense in allowing it to out-DPS the Fist or out-Tank the Master.

pantagruel01 · February 2018

My only problem with the dragon spirit is... hybrid role? Really?

wrathsoul1 · February 2018

magpieuk2014 said:
Dragons, to me, breathe fire; and we already have Hi-Pan and his minions who use a mix of Fire Breath and MA attacks, so it's a game-world inspired build.

Overall it's a bit late to be queasy about this power mix. There's no "Absorb Chi" power in the new set and three ATs working on a dodge/BCR basis is too many. Having to use Absorb Heat makes it play very differently to the Fist and Master... you should try it out.

Actually, there are multiple kinds of dragons: Some breathe fire, others are hydrokinetics, in fact, a minority could even shoot ice beams while you could have a species of dragons that doesn't have anything elemental to them.

pantagruel01 said:
My only problem with the dragon spirit is... hybrid role? Really?

What's wrong with that?

deadman20 · February 2018

kaizerin wrote: »

New Archetype: Dragon Spirit
This will be a free archetype.

Balanced Role
Strength-Dexterity-Recovery
Warden-Brawler

1 Righteous Fists
1 One Hundred Hands
6 Thunderbolt Lunge OR Elbow Slam
8 Way of the Warrior OR Lightning Reflexes
11 Inexorable Tides OR Dragon Kick
14 Form of the Master
17 Burning Chi Fist
21 Retaliation
25 Chi Manipulation
30 Open Palm Strike OR Shockwave
35 Intensity OR Bountiful Chi Resurgence
40 Fury of the Dragon

I mean, it's interesting to see another AT, but... why? The Fist and Master ATs already exist, this one doesn't seem all that necessary especially as it tries to mix the two. I do appreciate it being a free Hybrid (the second one that is free), but... this doesn't feel necessary or impressive at all. Probably the only thing I do really like about this AT is that it includes Fury of the Dragon. The rest of it just looks like it tried too hard to be different from the Fist and Master and failed miserably.

I'd rather keep my suggestions for the Fist and Master in mind and for this new Dragon Spirit AT look into doing something that is a bit different from what we've got now.

Here's what I have in mind:

Dragon's Spirit
Dex, Con-Rec
Warden-Arbiter

1 Vicious Strikes
1 Thundering Kicks
6 Elbow Slam OR Chained Kunai
8 Way of the Warrior OR Lightning Reflexes
11 Crashing Wave Kick OR Inexorible Tides
14 Form of the Master
17 Open Palm Strike
21 Retaliation
25 Chi Manipulation
30 Bountiful Chi Resurgence OR Conviction
35 Intensity OR Ascension
40 Fury of the Dragon

The goal here is to make a more Suppotive/Offensive Melee Hybrid via the Arbiter tree. Allowing the AT to reduce foes effectiveness and empowering allies while maintaining a strong self-sufficient composure in battle. Thundering Kicks becomes a necessity to allow the choice of Arbiter and Warden Mastery to be made use of.

Elbow Slam vs Chained Kunai
-Here I opted for a hard-hitting but short ranged lunge+CC vs a ranged pull and possible early self-heal. A worthy choice to consider.

WotW vs LR
-Honestly, this is fine. Players can choose a more Offensive orientation or a more Defensive one. Both suit this AT just fine.

Crashing Wave Kick vs Inexorible Tides
-I'll be honest, I love this matchup. Moreso now that CWK becomes more desirable with the Arbiter setup. Single Target Stun with Specialization potential or an AoE Knock? Up to the player

Bountiful Chi Resurgence vs Conviction
-A self-heal is always nice, but also to be considered are their advantages. BCR offers shared healing while Conviction allows the Dragon Spirit AT to remotely heal nearby allies. These advantages can pair really well with the supportive Arbiter route if the player opts into it. Besides, not everyone will pick Chained Kunai, right?

Intensity vs Ascension
-Well, honestly... this part comes with a bit of a caveat and a suggestion to go alongside it. Intensity can be the more offensive option for the AT, while Ascension can boost the AT's supportive capabilities, not to mention come with an advantage to consume Illumination. Unfortunately, the AT currently does NOT provide Illumination for this effect, so here is what I will suggest: Open Palm Strike to gain an advantage that applies Illuminated (Debuff) to affected foes and Conviction to apply Illumination (Buff) in addition to its healing advantage to allies affected.

Boom, Hybrid Melee/Healing AT. Far and away the most unique one you'll have on the roster, especially since it'll be the only AT utilizing Arbiter at this time.

pantagruel01 · February 2018

wrathsoul1 said:
What's wrong with that?

Hybrid is never a good choice with an offensive passive and rarely a good choice with a defensive passive. And if you're going to do a hybrid with a defensive passive, you want invuln or regen, not LR.

avianos · February 2018

A Hybrid AT? Eww
I thought we reached a point where the game Condemns the use of the Hybrid Mode
Where is this AT going to fit for Endgame exactly?

magpieuk2014 · February 2018

@deadman20

That works nicely - the Arbiter/Warden set up is v good, in fact I think I'd prefer to solo the LR version of that AT more than the pure Tank master build. Some other thoughts:

It suffers a little from a lack of offensive options; Elbow Slam I find disappointing:the animation, charge time and cooldown make it look like an alpha strike when it's a utility power, but we can live with that. Maybe add Burning Chi Fist or Dragon Kick as an option at 17?
The idea of having Ascension as the AO is quite fun - if the power gave you Dragon wings and had more appropriate buffs/debufs that set up could use it would go from good to great (maybe add a chance to add Chi Flame during the AO's activity period?

Suggestion
Re-skin Ascension as "Wings of the Dragon" or similar. Effects are similar to Ascension except:

1) Costume applies Dragon wings, rather than Angel Wings
2) Power adds a 10% chance to apply Chi Flame to all attacks while power is on

shadowolf505 · February 2018

avianos wrote: »

A Hybrid AT? Eww
I thought we reached a point where the game Condemns the use of the Hybrid Mode
Where is this AT going to fit for Endgame exactly?

It's a Free AT, nevertheless. Endgame doesn't have to fit for every AT, to be honest. But you'd be surprised at what some people can do.

nyghtshroude · February 2018

Dragon Spirit should have as an ultimate or higher level ability a sort of spirit bomb attack. A large ki blast.

pantagruel01 · February 2018

shadowolf505 said:

It's a Free AT, nevertheless. Endgame doesn't have to fit for every AT, to be honest. But you'd be surprised at what some people can do.

It's not an endgame specific problem, other than everything pre-endgame being easy enough that it doesn't matter if a build is bad.

shadowolf505 · February 2018

Honestly, I'd say it may as well do better as an Offtank than a Hybrid DPS, especially with LR and BCR. But I do see a lack of Thundering Kicks, which actually gives a dodge buff (correct me if I'm wrong please) which would in turn, make using this AT as an Offtank hard (I think).

lordnightmare · February 2018

I don't see how having 3 purely MA ATs is bad especially since 2 of them being dedicated to one role and the new 3rd is a hybrid. We have 2 (technically 3) Sorcery ones and 3 Munitions (technically 4). Ya'll seem to be trying to fix what isn't broken.

shadowolf505 · February 2018

lordnightmare#9851 wrote: »

I don't see how having 3 purely MA ATs is bad especially since 2 of them being dedicated to one role and the new 3rd is a hybrid. We have 2 (technically 3) Sorcery ones and 3 Munitions (technically 4). Ya'll seem to be trying to fix what isn't broken.

We even have 2 Ice ones, 2 Fire ones, 2 Heavy Weapons ones as well. I for one welcome more roles for a specific powerset, such as MA as an AT tbh.

Discussion Thread: The Fist/The Master/Dragon Spirit Archetype Changes

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