Are the Blood Moon fallen heroes from Champions Lore?

rancidmojo · October 2017

I was just wondering if the fallen heroes in the Blood Moon Event are from the PnP lore or were they just created for the Event? I have no idea what any of their powers are....if I'm fighting them in a "Pain Train" there are so many visual effects I can barely see my toon. If I run into one alone I get one shotted so fast I never see what hits me.

chaelk · October 2017

Flechette is guns,
Radion is toxin I think.
Nimbus is cold.
Crusher is force/str.
Herc is str.
Goblin is toxin.
Grace is tk blades.
Eclipse is darkness.
Shadowboxer is MA unarmed.
Tiger is I think claws.
Vigil is magic.
Vanguard no idea.

bulgarex · October 2017

Before Cryptic bought the Champions IP, a few of the heroes killed during the Battle of Detroit were named in published books, and are among the heroes listed by chaelk above. After Champions Online established all the specific heroes to be raised during the first Blood Moon, that was mostly incorporated into the latest edition of the core overview book for the entire Champions setting, Champions Universe, and has now become canon for the PnP game. Following is the list and description of those heroes as it appears on CU p. 85.

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The following heroes, now all represented by statues in Memorial Park in Millennium City, were killed by Dr. Destroyer during the Battle of Detroit:

Vanguard, an immensely strong flying superhero, regarded by most scholars as the most powerful superhero yet seen on Earth;

Amazing Grace, who said she was given holy powers by an angel, but whose healing powers weren’t enough to preserve her own life in the face of Destroyer’s attacks;

Crusher, a telekinetic hero who’d received his powers in a VIPER experiment;

Eclipse, a mischievous, playful heroine with darkness powers who claimed to be a sentient sunspot;

Firefight, a pyrokinetic who mostly used his powers during the battle to save innocents from the numerous fires that sprang up, and was killed by Dr. Destroyer when he responded to the call for help during the final battle;

Flechette II, a gun-wielding former street criminal turned hero who was slain by Destroyer’s orbital cannon blast;

Goblin, a human who gained his powers by bonding with a strange alien spirit, but who wasn’t strong enough to keep Dr. Destroyer from breaking his neck;

Icestar, one of the most experienced and beloved heroes from the early Eighties;

Johnny Hercules, possessor of the “Hercules Force” (page 17) that made him super strong... but not as strong as Destroyer;

Nimbus, who had power over both wind and cold, which she used during the battle to suck power away from the monstrous Glacier and create a snowstorm to slow down some of Destroyer’s forces;

Radion, an electricity controller created by Destroyer based on Gigaton’s DNA, but who’d turned on his creator years ago, and suffered Destroyer’s revenge for his betrayal during the battle;

Shadowboxer, one of Detroit’s few native heroes, who was crushed to death by Glacier;

Swashbuckler II, successor to a famed Golden Age hero of the same name, whose body armor wasn’t enough to save him when he tried to stop Grond’s rampage during the battle;

Tiger, leader of the Sentinels, who’d led UNTIL’s attack on Dr. Phillippe Moreau’s Ural Mountains compound but was accidentally injected with one of Moreau’s sera during the fight and transformed into a man-tiger hybrid; and

Vigil, a mutant with energy powers who often worked for the Department of Defense and spent much of the battle fighting Destroid robots.

flyingfinn · October 2017

Vanguard no idea.

Archer.

bulgarex · October 2017

flyingfinn said:
Vanguard no idea.

Archer.

Quite a few people familiar with the PnP lore expressed perturbation when they saw the name of the CU's deceased Superman analogue being used by an archer. As far as I've been able to piece the story together from various references, the developers of the Blood Moon event weren't really given backgrounds for the deceased heroes, just the names; so they designed them however they considered appropriate to their names.

Unknown · October 2017

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rancidmojo · October 2017

bulgarex said:

flyingfinn said:
Vanguard no idea.

Archer.
Quite a few people familiar with the PnP lore expressed perturbation when they saw the name of the CU's deceased Superman analogue being used by an archer. As far as I've been able to piece the story together from various references, the developers of the Blood Moon event weren't really given backgrounds for the deceased heroes, just the names; so they designed them however they considered appropriate to their names.

That's kind of understandable since the game mechanics don't allow for lore characters to have the same abilities they'd have in PnP. Before the site went away I played on an online Champions PnP group for awhile. I could never recreate the character exactly with this game.

I was just curious to know if the characters were created just for the event. I appreciate the answers from you guys.

nepht · October 2017

bulgarex said:

The following heroes, now all represented by statues in Memorial Park in Millennium City, were killed by Dr. Destroyer during the Battle of Detroit:

Dr Destroyer did not do a very good job at killing them if they come back as zombies. That is why you should always buy P.A.I.N inc brand orbital death rays over Destroyer brand as our orbital death rays vaporise 99% of all known cape types. Each one of our orbital death rays also come with a 12 month money back guarantee and 4 free fidget spinners as standard.

spinnytop · October 2017

Someone mention me? O3O

..oh.. it's just Nepht talking about fidget spinners again...

nepht · October 2017

spinnytop said:
Someone mention me? O3O

..oh.. it's just Nepht talking about fidget spinners again...

First time I ever mentioned fidget spinners. Stop screwing around with time travel you dingbat.

flyingfinn · October 2017

gradii said:
If Vanguards body was completely destroyed when he sacrificed himself to stop asteroids, it would make a lot of sense for the same person to not be able to be raised by takofanes.

Like it would make a lot of sense them being raised at all.

spinnytop · October 2017

Necromancy is very scientific. Like how skeletons move without any muscles. Yes, all of the Necromancies follow the science. Not like you can transubstantiate someone's ghost into a zombie o3o

bulgarex · October 2017

nepht said:

Dr Destroyer did not do a very good job at killing them if they come back as zombies. That is why you should always buy P.A.I.N inc brand orbital death rays over Destroyer brand as our orbital death rays vaporise 99% of all known cape types. Each one of our orbital death rays also come with a 12 month money back guarantee and 4 free fidget spinners as standard.

For publicly disparaging Destroyer, I imagine you're now on his list of people to destroy. Fortunately it's a long list, so with luck you're well down it and it'll be a long time before he gets around to annihilating you.

bulgarex · October 2017

flyingfinn said:

gradii said:
If Vanguards body was completely destroyed when he sacrificed himself to stop asteroids, it would make a lot of sense for the same person to not be able to be raised by takofanes.
Like it would make a lot of sense them being raised at all.

That it could happen once is accommodated by the ground rules of how a supers setting works. That superheroes would allow it to recur every year makes no sense at all. But I promised myself I'd stop stressing over the logical incongruities inherent in a MMORPG.

flyingfinn · October 2017

Bringing logic/sense into comic books or video games is...illogical.

Unknown · October 2017

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canadascott · October 2017

gradii said:
If Vanguards body was completely destroyed when he sacrificed himself to stop asteroids, it would make a lot of sense for the same person to not be able to be raised by takofanes.

I was told a long time ago that the big V's body has been reconstituted from dark energy, and that's the zombie. The original was pulped in space (or was he?

)

And as for him not being Might, that was an error Cryptic made long ago that they meant to correct, but never did.

bulgarex · October 2017

From a continuity point of view, it's probably just as well they never did correct it for the Blood Moon. Fighting an undead reanimation of the most powerful, famous and respected superhero who ever lived, really should be an event in itself.

nepht · October 2017

bulgarex said:

nepht said:

For publicly disparaging Destroyer, I imagine you're now on his list of people to destroy. Fortunately it's a long list, so with luck you're well down it and it'll be a long time before he gets around to annihilating you.

I'm NES hard he can try.

spinnytop · October 2017

I bet Nepht's list is longer. I'm on there twice o3o

nepht · October 2017

spinnytop said:
I bet Nepht's list is longer. I'm on there twice o3o

It just means I like you and when I destroy the world I'll death ray you quickly. Its the ones NOT on the list that have to worry.

rancidmojo · October 2017

nepht said:

bulgarex said:

The following heroes, now all represented by statues in Memorial Park in Millennium City, were killed by Dr. Destroyer during the Battle of Detroit:

Dr Destroyer did not do a very good job at killing them if they come back as zombies. That is why you should always buy P.A.I.N inc brand orbital death rays over Destroyer brand as our orbital death rays vaporise 99% of all known cape types. Each one of our orbital death rays also come with a 12 month money back guarantee and 4 free fidget spinners as standard.

Sounds like Destroyer got the parts from the same place Wile E. Coyote gets his Road Runner traps.

guyhumual · October 2017

bulgarex said:

Goblin, a human who gained his powers by bonding with a strange alien spirit, but who wasn’t strong enough to keep Dr. Destroyer from breaking his neck;

Dr Destroyer changed over the editions, sounds like this was from back when he was more a skull faced brute that we know from the legacy toy then the gadget destroyer we have from this game.

bulgarex · October 2017

Per the official history of this incarnation of DD as laid out in Book Of The Destroyer, the above is the style of armor he wore for the Battle of Detroit, before he upgraded to his current model. The skull face was a mask intended to terrify.

Destroyer does indeed love his gadgets, which are incredibly varied and sophisticated. But in personal combat he prefers to overwhelm his opponents with brute force, to intimidate them by his "obvious" superiority. Only if such tactics are ineffective will he break out his more unorthodox battle options.

pantagruel01 · October 2017

guyhumual said:

Dr Destroyer changed over the editions, sounds like this was from back when he was more a skull faced brute that we know from the legacy toy then the gadget destroyer we have from this game.

That was gadget destroyer, I have the 4th edition writeup somewhere.

markhawkman · October 2017

bulgarex said:

flyingfinn said:

gradii said:
If Vanguards body was completely destroyed when he sacrificed himself to stop asteroids, it would make a lot of sense for the same person to not be able to be raised by takofanes.
Like it would make a lot of sense them being raised at all.
That it could happen once is accommodated by the ground rules of how a supers setting works. That superheroes would allow it to recur every year makes no sense at all. But I promised myself I'd stop stressing over the logical incongruities inherent in a MMORPG.

Isn't there already an in-game explanation?

Tako is DEAD. We can't kill him. the best we can do is force him to retreat temporarily.

championshewolf · October 2017

canadascott said:

gradii said:
If Vanguards body was completely destroyed when he sacrificed himself to stop asteroids, it would make a lot of sense for the same person to not be able to be raised by takofanes.
I was told a long time ago that the big V's body has been reconstituted from dark energy, and that's the zombie. The original was pulped in space (or was he? )

And as for him not being Might, that was an error Cryptic made long ago that they meant to correct, but never did.

The reason Vanguard wasn't made Might was because they already had a might character in the spawn group, in this case Johnny Hercule. However, they should have just used another character, but to change it now would probably be a bit of work.

bulgarex · October 2017

markhawkman said:

bulgarex said:

flyingfinn said:

gradii said:
If Vanguards body was completely destroyed when he sacrificed himself to stop asteroids, it would make a lot of sense for the same person to not be able to be raised by takofanes.
Like it would make a lot of sense them being raised at all.
That it could happen once is accommodated by the ground rules of how a supers setting works. That superheroes would allow it to recur every year makes no sense at all. But I promised myself I'd stop stressing over the logical incongruities inherent in a MMORPG.
Isn't there already an in-game explanation?

Tako is DEAD. We can't kill him. the best we can do is force him to retreat temporarily.

Takofanes is a known threat to the entire world. If it was known in advance that he'd be in a particular place on a specific date, every major mystic superhero on Earth, and no few of the villains, would be there with their most potent spells ready to nuke his bony butt the moment he showed his face. Realistically, if Takofanes keeps repeatedly doing this in the same location, there must be a bigger reason than just a rampage, and it can't be good for the world. Even if they can't actually destroy him (pulverizing that corpse of a body would probably be as good as killing him), they could at least imprison him. That's been done before, twice in his history.

More broadly speaking, no true comic-book heroes would allow a villain to predictably threaten large numbers of innocent people, and violate the graves of their fellow heroes, every frickin' year, without spending the whole year between events working to stop it before it happens again. To do less would not be true to the genre.

But this situation isn't realistic or genre. It's a MMORPG event, with its first priority being fun for the players. If it makes no more game-world sense than the shenanigans at Club Caprice, that isn't the point.

Sorry, I apologize for the rant, and promise to behave.

spinnytop · October 2017

bulgarex said:
Takofanes is a known threat to the entire world. If it was known in advance that he'd be in a particular place on a specific date, every major mystic superhero on Earth, and no few of the villains, would be there with their most potent spells ready to nuke his bony butt the moment he showed his face.

Well considering that players are the strongest supers in the game world... we are there o3o

bulgarex · October 2017

Even it that's true, you aren't all of them, and you aren't all the magicians. Where's the Archmage, Robert Caliburn? This sort of thing is supposed to be his job. Where are the magic heroes -- the Drifter, Black Rose, Dweomer, Rashindar, Ravenspeaker, Drs. White and Black, Eldritch, Gyeroy Vedun? Where are the Demonologist, Josiah Brimstone, Dr. Yin Wu, and Dr. Teneber? They may be villains, but they've helped heroes before against greater mystic threats. Where's Celestar, Canada's most powerful hero? He's based in Windsor, right across the Detroit River from MC. Why don't the mystic heroes who are part of teams bring their whole teams along for support -- UNITY, the Sentinels, the Justice Squadron? Multi-team cooperation against a common foe is a frequent feature of both comics and the CU's history.

I'm ranting, again, I apologize. It just doesn't make any sense. I will shut up now.

spinnytop · October 2017

Well they let us handle all of the other major threats in the universe, why would they start showing up now? Those people you listed are pretty much just glorified mascots. Hell, Caliburn didn't even deal with Therakiel himself, he had us do it.

bulgarex · October 2017

They "let you handle it" because in this game they aren't characters, they're just window dressing for the players' game. Which like I said is the point of an MMO, even when it isn't logical. Which is why I really have no right to complain.

markhawkman · October 2017

bulgarex said:
Even it that's true, you aren't all of them, and you aren't all the magicians. Where's the Archmage, Robert Caliburn? This sort of thing is supposed to be his job. Where are the magic heroes -- the Drifter, Black Rose, Dweomer, Rashindar, Ravenspeaker, Drs. White and Black, Eldritch, Gyeroy Vedun? Where are the Demonologist, Josiah Brimstone, Dr. Yin Wu, and Dr. Teneber? They may be villains, but they've helped heroes before against greater mystic threats. Where's Celestar, Canada's most powerful hero? He's based in Windsor, right across the Detroit River from MC. Why don't the mystic heroes who are part of teams bring their whole teams along for support -- UNITY, the Sentinels, the Justice Squadron? Multi-team cooperation against a common foe is a frequent feature of both comics and the CU's history.

Don't the Crowns of Krim also hate Takophanes? Why not them too?

That'd actually be a lot of fun.... Hunt down Phoenix during Blood Moon and get a summon device to let you call him to help fight Tako.

spinnytop · October 2017

bulgarex said:
They "let you handle it" because in this game they aren't characters, they're just window dressing for the players' game. Which like I said is the point of an MMO, even when it isn't logical. Which is why I really have no right to complain.

Yeah but during any interaction with them it's proven that players are stronger than them u3u

bulgarex · October 2017

Which there is no world-based reason for them to be, except "player characters must be first banana."

spinnytop · October 2017

If by "world-based" you mean source material, then that's silly.

bulgarex · October 2017

Since this game being a game trumps it being a world, then of course you're right.

I admit I'm spoiled by being a tabletop gamer, where we have the freedom to balance it being both.

pantagruel01 · October 2017

bulgarex said:
Which there is no world-based reason for them to be, except "player characters must be first banana."

Player characters are usually first banana or pretty close in tabletop games as well.

markhawkman · October 2017

Well... my head-canon for why the current Champions main team seems weak is that they're basically second-string guys the OLD Champions would have called for backup if they needed more people to handle something.

bulgarex · October 2017

pantagruel01 said:

bulgarex said:
Which there is no world-based reason for them to be, except "player characters must be first banana."
Player characters are usually first banana or pretty close in tabletop games as well.

While in most such games they start off less powerful and grow over time, they usually do eventually reach that status; and many games start them off at a much higher power level. But if you're inserting a group of PnP gamers into a pre-generated world, it's a relatively small number of PCs, so they can be added without upsetting the rest of the apple cart too much. It's easy enough to say that powerful NPCs are otherwise occupied at a given time, especially if PC adventures begin more locally; or to mix PC and NPC in a larger mission, where each deals with a particular element of it. It's also easier to bring a few players onto the same page in terms of what the campaign will feature.

But in a MMORPG you have flocks of PCs, with each of their players having their own preferences and expectations that have to be dealt with. That demands the PCs take much more of the spotlight, and necessarily makes for less internal consistency. OTOH a MMO offers a different experience distinct from that of PnP, and does some things more effectively. Which, if either, someone prefers is a subjective matter of personal taste, not an objective measure of quality.

bulgarex · October 2017

markhawkman said:
Well... my head-canon for why the current Champions main team seems weak is that they're basically second-string guys the OLD Champions would have called for backup if they needed more people to handle something.

Which would be a fair way to rationalize it. It doesn't match the source material in terms of who the Champions are supposed to be, or who else exists in the world; but this is a different medium with its own necessities. If details like that don't bother most CO players, there's no need to stress over them.

pantagruel01 · October 2017

bulgarex said:
While in most such games they start off less powerful and grow over time, they usually do eventually reach that status.

In 4th edition, the Champions were introduced in the basic book -- with 250 point (starting character) writeups. I believe the same was done in later editions.

championshewolf · October 2017

bulgarex said:

pantagruel01 said:

bulgarex said:
Which there is no world-based reason for them to be, except "player characters must be first banana."
Player characters are usually first banana or pretty close in tabletop games as well.
While in most such games they start off less powerful and grow over time, they usually do eventually reach that status; and many games start them off at a much higher power level. But if you're inserting a group of PnP gamers into a pre-generated world, it's a relatively small number of PCs, so they can be added without upsetting the rest of the apple cart too much. It's easy enough to say that powerful NPCs are otherwise occupied at a given time, especially if PC adventures begin more locally; or to mix PC and NPC in a larger mission, where each deals with a particular element of it. It's also easier to bring a few players onto the same page in terms of what the campaign will feature.

But in a MMORPG you have flocks of PCs, with each of their players having their own preferences and expectations that have to be dealt with. That demands the PCs take much more of the spotlight, and necessarily makes for less internal consistency. OTOH a MMO offers a different experience distinct from that of PnP, and does some things more effectively. Which, if either, someone prefers is a subjective matter of personal taste, not an objective measure of quality.

You have to grow over time in an MMO to. The problem is that the growth practically stops at the end. The end game gear people clamor for does so little to actually improve a character but even those scraps are enough to make people complain and argue over how much of a "requirement" it is, despite many of us using heroicly geared characters and doing far better than those with the top of the line gear. That being said the other problem is, most table top games the GMs can also tailor the encounter to the strength of the players, and make changes on the fly as necessary, barring broken rule sets like 3rd edition DnD of course. That isn't possible in a static, unchanging environment of an MMO without constant GM intervention and most studios couldn't afford that many hands to monitor players.

doomedluke1 · October 2017

I was just wondering something yesterday... if those undead heroes take a large group of heroes to defeat them, and even so they weren't capable of stopping Destroyer, how powerful is he? How many heroes would take now if he was in a game event? Or maybe Takofanes is able to boost their power so the undead versions are more powerful than when they were alive?

pantagruel01 · October 2017

doomedluke1 said:
I was just wondering something yesterday... if those undead heroes take a large group of heroes to defeat them, and even so they weren't capable of stopping Destroyer, how powerful is he? How many heroes would take now if he was in a game event? Or maybe Takofanes is able to boost their power so the undead versions are more powerful than when they were alive?

Assuming in-game event bosses reveal much about lore is a poor decision. In any case, they're soloable (if tedious) with the right build. FWIW, all thirteen undead heroes put together would lose against any of the cosmics (they don't have the dps to beat checks on Eidolon or Dinosaur, and they don't have the CC to deal with Kiga's dogs or Qwyjibo's hearts).

bulgarex · October 2017

Lore-wise Dr. Destroyer is supposed to be able to give a whole team of world-class heroes, such as the Avengers or Justice League, a tough fight. But at Detroit Destroyer was actually losing to the assembled heroes after a prolonged and vicious battle, when he triggered his orbital cannon, ostensibly to take them all out with him. As later revealed, DD anticipated the battle's outcome, and staged his apparent suicide to give him a grace period to refine his plans and upgrade his technology. As a result the Doctor's current armor is even more powerful than the one he wore during the Battle of Detroit.

biffsmackwell · October 2017

How long is "prolonged"? How cool would it be if we had a boss that took an entire week to take out? Barf! That would be so cool!

flyingfinn · October 2017

That's the Sunset Event, when we fight against Dr. Destroyer for two weeks and at the end he blows up Millennium City.

pantagruel01 · October 2017

biffsmackwell said:
How long is "prolonged"?

Assuming they actually played it out in the Hero system, a short fight is one Turn (12s), an average fight is 2-3 (24-36s), and anything over 5 turns (1 minute) is crazy long.

bulgarex · October 2017

pantagruel01 is correct in that's how a specific combat tends to run in Champions-level Hero System games. The apparently short time-frame is due to the large number of combat actions that a typical Champions character can take during one 12-second Turn.

According to Book Of The Destroyer, the entire Battle of Detroit covered at least half a day. First the assembled heroes had to deal with stopping the swarm of asteroids DD had pulled toward crashing into the Earth, as well as the forces he'd assembled to block their path to his control center -- human soldiers, Destroid robots, hired supervillains, and such powerful monsters as Grond, Glacier, and Mega-Terak. Some of the battle's superhero casualties occurred during this phase. Once they overcame those obstacles, the heroes needed several minutes to blast their way into Destroyer's armored bunker. The climactic fight with the Doctor himself took nearly half an hour, with wave after wave of superheroes assaulting the villain, wearing him down, until he triggered his orbital cannon. MeteorMan managed to throw up a defensive force-shield to protect most of the heroes, but some were obliterated by the initial strike of the beam.

It's likely the final fight would have ended sooner if Vanguard, the world's mightiest hero, hadn't died smashing the biggest asteroid. Even Destroyer acknowledged that Vanguard's death could have changed his plan if he'd anticipated it.

legendarylycan · October 2017

so here's a question...how the hell do these villains manage to keep building giant doomsday cannons or lasers in orbit without ANYONE noticing? you would think the sheer amounts of material and labor needed to build a huge cannon in space, not to mention transportation up there, would've been noticed by SOMEONE in PRIMUS, UNTIL, UNITY or whatever other organizations were active at the time

Are the Blood Moon fallen heroes from Champions Lore?

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